Homeschool

[Te Darasuum Mandalor]

Germany is such an awsome place, but educations there kinda sucks, not education wise, but due to its lack of freedom of education. What do you mean by assylum? Like a place where the villains from batman are locked up?

[JediAthos]

Germany is such an awsome place, but educations there kinda sucks, not education wise, but due to its lack of freedom of education. What do you mean by assylum? Like a place where the villains from batman are locked up?

 

Political asylum is something that countries can grant to foreigners seeking to escape their country of origin usually due to some form of persecution, or fear of their life. If you read the article that Totenkopf posted it goes into a bit more detail.

[True_Avery]

US Asylum for German homeschoolers:

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100302/us_time/09171196809900

No.

 

"Asylum is relief for a foreign national to remain in the U.S. under legal status because the foreign national has suffered past persecution in his home country or country of last habitual residence, or because the foreign national has a well founded fear of future persecution in his home country or country of last habitual residence and such persecution is based on race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group."

 

While that generally covers their case, our immigration and asylum courts are clogged enough as it is without a bunch of evangelical home schoolers flooding it because they can't "educate" their kids without biology.

 

Its pathetic their countries don't allow homeschooling, but this is hardly an asylum case. Let them try for citizenship legit instead of a loophole meant for more severe cases.

[JediAthos]

I agree with you completely Avery, as I said if they wish to immigrate to the U.S. and file the correct paperwork than more power to them, but I don't feel this should be an asylum issue.

[Endorenna]

I saw that and I can see both Germany and the family's side of the story I don't like the idea of the U.S. giving asylum to these folks. Asylum, as the article states, is normally granted to people in much more severe situations. If they wish to immigrate to the United States and apply for citizenship then that's fine, but I don't think asylum should have been used in this case.

 

That would've been risky, since the German government could've taken their children away while they were getting citizenship. If they'd simply immigrated without the promise of a job, then they could've been deported from the US. Some Western Democracies, mainly Germany and Sweden, have been persecuting homeschoolers with fines, jail sentences, and forcible removal of children from parental custody. Eight months ago in Sweden, a couple was leaving the country with their son, and government officials came onto the airplane when it was about to take off and took the little boy from his parents. The only charge was that they were homeschooling their child and intended to continue homeschooling him in a different country. He's only been allowed to see them for one hour every five weeks since then. If this German family had waited for citizenship, they could've been facing similar circumstances.

 

However, by granting them asylum, the US is affirming our country's position that the right of parents to direct the upbringing and education of their own children is a fundamental human right and Germany as a Western Democracy is violating that right.

 

What do you mean by assylum? Like a place where the villains from batman are locked up?

 

Asylum:

 

1) Protection and immunity from extradition granted by a government to somebody who has fled to another country, e.g. because of political oppression.

2) Protection from danger or imminent harm provided by a sheltered place.

[JediAthos]

I suppose my suggestion would be to comply with the law until such time as they can obtain a visa to come to the United States.

 

I'm not sure I see the option to homeschool as a fundamental human right. In my personal opinion many parents are not qualified to school their children, but I suppose that is a different discussion.

 

Now I do have children and if my wife and I decided we wanted to home school our children I wouldn't want the government to tell me otherwise, but at the same time the law is the law and I would adhere to the law until such time as I could find a way to accomplish my goal without risking my parental custody. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying there is an option.

[True_Avery]

I suppose my suggestion would be to comply with the law until such time as they can obtain a visa to come to the United States.

Exactly. Fact is, they disobeyed the law before asking for asylum. Instead of trying for citizenship, they broke the law and put themself into a situation warranting asylum.

 

If I was a more paranoid person I'd suggest they put themselves in the law's sights to make the case stronger. This isn't to say the situation isn't bad, but there is a difference between being in a country that is bombing your village and being in a country that is forcing you to partake in education.

 

I'm not sure I see the option to homeschool as a fundamental human right. In my personal opinion many parents are not qualified to school their children, but I suppose that is a different discussion.

If marriage isn't a fundamental human right, then neither is homeschooling as far as I'm concerned.

 

Most parents aren't qualified. That is why in the US the parent is required to do testing, classes, etc of their own to qualify them to do such. The amount of work my aunt has to do to keep my cousins homeschooled is pretty decent. I wouldn't be surprised if the parents come to the US and find the US's homeschooling system to teach "things they don't agree with".

 

Because, believe it or not, science is still on the test in the US.

 

Now I do have children and if my wife and I decided we wanted to home school our children I wouldn't want the government to tell me otherwise, but at the same time the law is the law and I would adhere to the law until such time as I could find a way to accomplish my goal without risking my parental custody. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying there is an option.

Essentially this. While it is very regrettable it is illegal in their country, it is still the law. They may be having their kids forced to go to school, but that is happening because, well, that is the law. You have to sign up for homeschooling in the US, and if you just hold you kids at home the same thing happens here.

 

I'm incredibly biased and spiteful here, but the fact they are an evengelical family who isn't taking their kids to school simply because they don't "agree" with the material makes me care even less about their situation. My cousins are home schooled because my cousin was brutally beaten on an almost daily basis and the school didn't care, and neither did the police.

 

Whats their excuse?

[Endorenna]

I'm incredibly biased and spiteful here, but the fact they are an evengelical family who isn't taking their kids to school simply because they don't "agree" with the material makes me care even less about their situation. My cousins are home schooled because my cousin was brutally beaten on an almost daily basis and the school didn't care, and neither did the police.

 

Whats their excuse?

 

Think of it this way. If the school system was teaching your kids that there is a God and that your atheism is wrong, would you want to leave them in school instead of teaching them yourself?

 

By granting asylum to this family, the US isn't condoning their reasons for not wanting their children in public schools; it's simply recognizing their basic human right to choose how their children are educated.

[True_Avery]

Think of it this way. If the school system was teaching your kids that there is a God and that your atheism is wrong, would you want to leave them in school instead of teaching them yourself?

I know I'm being stubborn here, but I don't really see it as the same.

 

They are coming to the US to homeschool their kids, leaving a previous country in which they did not agree with the material. This is all supposition on my part, but I can only guess that these two Evangelicals take up issue with the content based upon their religion. Again, supposition, but its all I have to work with right now. However, homeschooling, especially in the US, still has standards. Lets say, for instance, that this religious family takes issue with evolution or something else being taught in their public school. They can take issue with it all they want, but by refusing the part of their education they are inhibiting their child's test scores and future academia.

 

Why?

 

Because, in the context and the situation of now, Evolution, biology, and much of science is still in tests for Homeschooling, college, etc. My two cousins can be homeschooled and my aunt could be crazy religious, but if they don't know science then know what happens? The guy who comes every month to evaluate and test them and their mother may find they are getting severely lacking test scores in, say, science. This means she gets less breaks for homeschooling them and, if it persists, they will be forced to go back to public school as the law dictates.

 

The USA has testing and academic standards that do not (or, at least don't often) conform and bend to their religious ideas on what is agreeable to be taught in school. Home schooling does NOT exist for the parents to dictate what kids learn; it exists for parents to give a personal environment in which to teach kids USA Standards.

 

If it was the other way around and I was being forced to be taught religion? I have that option. Private school. And, last time I checked, Germany has private religious schools so...

 

Why are we granting them asylum? Sounds more like they got into debt and, instead of paying it off and sending them to private school, they used a loophole in USA immigration policy to get citizenship. Do I agree with that supposition? Not really, but their case certainly doesn't look sincere to me especially when there were probably others that could of used those green cards more.

 

By granting asylum to this family, the US isn't condoning their reasons for not wanting their children in public schools; it's simply recognizing their basic human right to choose how their children are educated.

By granting asylum to this family the US has opened another door for immigration in a system that is already overly flooded, and for a family with poor reason no less.

 

And, again, dictated education is not a basic human right. It is a privilege the US allows under strict regulation and enforcement, and in the end you're being taught and tested on the same material. You already said it yourself, "to choose how their children are educated". Not what material is picked and chosen, but how. If anything, they are naive to believe their kids wont be tested on the same material at some point in the US.

 

Are the kids being abused? Is their school raided every day? Are they brutalized in school by students and teachers alike for, say, being gay? Are they treated like second class citizens due to their color, and put into shed classes instead of a normal class like every one else?

 

There are more severe cases of kids being abused by their school system outside the US, and even inside. As an entire subject its up for debate, but this is asylum. A system that is very selective person to person, family to family. Its essentially a free ticket into the US given by a court that dictates that the persons are in danger from their own country and either need to be brought here, or given aid. If they were just trying for citizenship because of a lack of home school option, then sure... but I don't agree with asylum being abused for this purpose, especially by this family. Asylum is granted to legally defined refugees. "Well-founded fear of being persecuted on account of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of their nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail him/herself of the protection of that country."

 

The countries law dictates an education. They refused to give that education, and tried to homeschool them their own way. Even in the US, that is illegal. They are not refugees. They do not have a "Well-founded" fear. They broke the law, were charged, and their kids were taken back to school.

 

That would've been risky, since the German government could've taken their children away while they were getting citizenship. If they'd simply immigrated without the promise of a job, then they could've been deported from the US. Some Western Democracies, mainly Germany and Sweden, have been persecuting homeschoolers with fines, jail sentences, and forcible removal of children from parental custody. Eight months ago in Sweden, a couple was leaving the country with their son, and government officials came onto the airplane when it was about to take off and took the little boy from his parents. The only charge was that they were homeschooling their child and intended to continue homeschooling him in a different country. He's only been allowed to see them for one hour every five weeks since then. If this German family had waited for citizenship, they could've been facing similar circumstances.

 

However, by granting them asylum, the US is affirming our country's position that the right of parents to direct the upbringing and education of their own children is a fundamental human right and Germany as a Western Democracy is violating that right.

Here is my point:

 

Those Swedish parents in another country? I'd have no problem with them asking for asylum for their son since he was taken away. That is a pretty steep thing for Sweden to do for the sake of an education. That family has a "well-founded" fear of their country for taking their child away.

 

This family, however, just didn't agree with the school on a subject and racked up charges perhaps for religious reasons. I don't view it on anywhere near the same level, especially when what they did is also illegal in the United States. What happens when they don't teach their kids this subject in the US? Their grades will go down, their tests will suffer, and the US might make them take public classes. Asylum wasted.

[Jae Onasi]

The evolution/creation issue is a very, very small part of science--my high school chemistry and physics classes never touched on it, and I only studied it for a few days in biology. The homeschoolers at my church spend a lot of time on science, but when it comes to the evolution/creation issue, they're taught creationism (old earth or young earth depending on the parent) instead of evolution. At most they'll lose a few points on the SAT/ACT since there aren't a zillion evolution questions. So, the idea that homeschooled kids are handicapped in science is not correct. There is so much more to science that has nothing to do with evolutionary theory--meteorology, geology, astronomy, physics, chemistry, anatomy, physiology, etc. The smart homeschooling conservative evangelical parent will present a brief study of evolution so that their kids are aware of what others believe.

[jawathehutt]

The evolution/creation issue is a very, very small part of science--my high school chemistry and physics classes never touched on it, and I only studied it for a few days in biology. The homeschoolers at my church spend a lot of time on science, but when it comes to the evolution/creation issue, they're taught creationism (old earth or young earth depending on the parent) instead of evolution. At most they'll lose a few points on the SAT/ACT since there aren't a zillion evolution questions. So, the idea that homeschooled kids are handicapped in science is not correct. There is so much more to science that has nothing to do with evolutionary theory--meteorology, geology, astronomy, physics, chemistry, anatomy, physiology, etc. The smart homeschooling conservative evangelical parent will present a brief study of evolution so that their kids are aware of what others believe.

 

They probably wont lose anything on the ACT, the science part of that is just reading and looking at graphs, you could go in knowing nothing about science and do great on it if you knew how to read graphs and could analyze data. In college however, they're going to be in a world of hurt, there's no chance in hell they could pass a bio class if they just decided to completely ignore evolution. At least in my bio class, it was a good third of the semester.

[Jae Onasi]

In college however, they're going to be in a world of hurt, there's no chance in hell they could pass a bio class if they just decided to completely ignore evolution. At least in my bio class, it was a good third of the semester.

Depends on the prof and what college they go to. 1/3 of the semester seems an awful lot to devote to that one subject when there's so much more involved in biology, unless your course was 'evolutionary biology'.

[Q]

Of course, if they really cared about their kids' future, the more practically-minded evangelical homeschoolers would teach their kids evolution, telling them something along the lines of "We don't believe in this, but we don't want to deliberately hamstring you academically, either."

[Te Darasuum Mandalor]

Our neighbors aren't like that. They are so conservitive, they don't even teach their kids that. They also believe that everybody except people of their faith go to Hell. They homeschool because they have a religious exemption. Their kids want to go to school but their parents won't have it. They are good people but their beliefs are kinda funny.

[True_Avery]

Depends on the prof and what college they go to. 1/3 of the semester seems an awful lot to devote to that one subject when there's so much more involved in biology, unless your course was 'evolutionary biology'.

True, but its only one example and supposition on my part. This could extend from Evolution, to sex ed (knew a kid in high school that didn't know what sex was because he was home schooled), English (I knew kids in some english classes that had parent notes saying they were not allowed to read certain books), Holidays (had a friend who was not allowed to participate nor be taught about holidays; Jehovah's witness), and even extend into picking and choosing what parts of history to teach and in what context.

 

Some of this stuff is pretty important, and knew plenty of kids, usually homeschooled by religious parents, that had massive gaps missing in their education that could extend into a variety of classes, and then bleed into their social interactions.

 

Homeschooling may not handicap science specifically, but my point is that these parents are, as EvilQ said, still purposefully hamstringing their child's education. The parents in the article should have been forced to pay their fine and their kids given a proper education. As far as I'm concerned, hiding even one page from your child's education due to your own selfish beliefs is disgusting.

 

Of course, if they really cared about their kids' future, the more practically-minded evangelical homeschoolers would teach their kids evolution, telling them something along the lines of "We don't believe in this, but we don't want to deliberately hamstring you academically, either."

Exactly. Not teaching your child something and simply telling them it is "wrong" only hamstrings their growth. Why not teach them it to give them at least an understanding of what they don't agree with?

 

As far as evolution goes, at least a great deal of people go for intelligent design and I find that many religious people I've seen educated going from creationism to intelligent design. Its a happy medium, and the person gets to keep their beliefs along with their biology test scores. And, even if they stay creationist, at least they were educated on what they disagree with at some point.

 

Our neighbors aren't like that. They are so conservitive, they don't even teach their kids that. They also believe that everybody except people of their faith go to Hell. They homeschool because they have a religious exemption. Their kids want to go to school but their parents won't have it. They are good people but their beliefs are kinda funny.

See, I don't like this. By outright refusing to teach them, the message is quite simple: "We don't want you to think. Only follow."

 

It is disgusting.

[Totenkopf]

... even extend into picking and choosing what parts of history to teach and in what context.

 

This happens anyway. Between time constraints and the ideologies of any given teacher in the public and even private school systems. In TX (I think) there's even an attempt to teach US history only AFTER Reconstruction (~1877/8 +/- forward) rather than from the founding of the country.

 

It usually showed pretty blatantly in how they interacted socially, because some of these kids would say things out loud that, well, you just don't say out loud in a public room.

 

Specifically how? I've seen a lot of non-homeschooled kids that are pretty careless in the things they say in public.

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, hiding even one page from your child's education due to your own selfish beliefs is disgusting.

 

Happens anyway (see above).

 

Exactly. Not teaching your child something and simply telling them it is "wrong" only hamstrings their growth. Why not teach them it to give them at least an understanding of what they don't agree with?

 

Agreed. If a child is doing something wrong, it should at least be explained why it's wrong rather than simply "corrected". Doesn't have to be explained in too much detail as most children don't grasp nuance till later.

 

As far as evolution goes, at least a great deal of people go for intelligent design and I find that many religious people I've seen educated going from creationism to intelligent design. Its a happy medium, and the person gets to keep their beliefs along with their biology test scores. And, even if they stay creationist, at least they were educated on what they disagree with at some point.

 

I agree that evolution is a concept that ought to be taught in science class as it is the only way we can grasp some clue as to our origins besides Deus Ex Machina or space aliens.

 

See, I don't like this. By outright refusing to teach them, the message is quite simple: "We don't want you to think. Only follow." It is disgusting.

 

There's enough of that already in society already.

[Endorenna]

There's a difference between not teaching your child something and not wanting someone else to teach your child something. Homeschooling parents (like my own) can teach their kids about evolution quite well while saying, "This isn't what really happened, but you need it to get through college and to not look completely incomptent." It's quite another thing to have a public school teacher telling a child about evolution and saying that it really happened and that anyone who believes otherwise is a fool--including the child's parents.

 

PS: By the way, being religious does not mean having no science background. Both of my parents did extremely well in their science courses in college, despite being religious, and I'm getting quite a bit of science myself right now.

[True_Avery]

This happens anyway.

Fair enough.

 

In TX (I think) there's even an attempt to teach US history only AFTER Reconstruction (~1877/8 +/- forward) rather than from the founding of the country.

I'd love to see how far that goes.

 

However, yeah. I see your point. A lot of people, for example, are still taught that Columbus discovered America and was a great man.

 

Bad point on my part.

 

It's quite another thing to have a public school teacher telling a child about evolution and saying that it really happened and that anyone who believes otherwise is a fool--including the child's parents.

Maybe I'm naive, but if any school I went to said that anyone who didn't believe in evolution was a "fool", the parents would be on them like freaking wolves.

 

Homeschooling parents (like my own) can teach their kids about evolution quite well while saying, "This isn't what really happened, but you need it to get through college and to not look completely incomptent."

I'm being nitpicky, but I still have a problem with this.

 

Why not just teach it? Why does "this isn't what really happened" have to be tossed in? Isn't that JUST as bad as the teachers calling people "fools"?

 

Once "this isn't really what happened" gets thrown in, what is the real point of teaching any further? I know I already made the point that its needed to get through school, but if you're going to contaminate the education from the get go then...

 

Pulling your kids out of school because of bad teachers is noble, but I find it hypocritical to turn around and spray the same contamination you're protesting.

 

PS: By the way, being religious does not mean having no science background. Both of my parents did extremely well in their science courses in college, despite being religious, and I'm getting quite a bit of science myself right now.

Well, kudos on your parents. Its good that there are at least some of you out there justifying the system.

[Totenkopf]

Doesn't mean I can't pick fault with this example.

 

Was merely agreeing that there's too much of that in society as it is........pressure to "conform" and not ask inconvenient questions.

 

Re Columbus, I think there's an equal overreaction on the other side that wishes to paint him as some form of genocidal monster. He was an explorer, commisioned to find a shorter route to the Far East. IIRC, his expedition at the trime was considered a disappointment.

[True_Avery]

Was merely agreeing that there's too much of that in society as it is........pressure to "conform" and not ask inconvenient questions.

Ah, gotcha. My mistake. In that case, yeah, agreed.

 

Re Columbus, I think there's an equal overreaction on the other side that wishes to paint him as some form of genocidal monster.

To be fair, he did enslave, rape, and kill tens of thousands of natives on the islands he explored. Maybe not a complete monster himself, he did cause a ton of harm to that area under his hand knowingly.

[Totenkopf]

To be fair, he did enslave, rape, and kill tens of thousands of natives on the islands he explored. Maybe not a complete monster himself, he did cause a ton of harm to that area under his hand knowingly.

 

Question is whether it was him or the legacy of Spanish colonialization that was responsible for so much damage. Add to that that most of the natives had no immunity to many other global diseases b/c of their relatively closed off circumstances (lack of international trade and intermixing with other peoples). It might be fairer to say he was something of a harbinger of doom for "native" life in the Americas b/c his expedition put the western hemisphere in the crosshairs of the europeans in general.

[True_Avery]

Question is whether it was him or the legacy of Spanish colonialization that was responsible for so much damage. Add to that that most of the natives had no immunity to many other global diseases b/c of their relatively closed off circumstances (lack of international trade and intermixing with other peoples). It might be fairer to say he was something of a harbinger of doom for "native" life in the Americas b/c his expedition put the western hemisphere in the crosshairs of the europeans in general.

To keep on topic, we can take this topic to Kavars or something.

[Totenkopf]

That's probably not a bad idea for a KC topic. Discussing the impact of "superior" civlizations on "inferior" ones (making it wide enough to not just deal with Columbus) throughout mans' history. But yeah, it was starting to go off on a tangent re OP.

[Te Darasuum Mandalor]

My neighbors are really black and white, they try to force what they believe on their kids. They are not bad people (they are in fact good people) but they go a little overboard sometimes. I for one like to think for myself, and though I may not necisarily believe in evolution, I question, not religion, but beliefs. They don't teach their kids to think like that, and once one of their twelve kids came up to me and said, "Jacob, why do you lie?" and I was like What in the nine circles of hell are you talking about, and she told me "don't you know anything about God." also, they don't believe you can be both a Christian and an evolutionist, but I got news for them, my pastor is evolutionist! It can be really annoying sometimes, and it seems Thomas is obsessed with things we shouldn't be worryng about for a few thousand years! (Antichrist, Armeggedon, rapture, other crap and hockey prophecies) I have told him before "I believe in an all everlasting God, not an idiot" because he believes that everybody who isn't Christian burns in Hell for all eternity! It doesen't even say in the Bible if it is a physicle place! Also, never ordr a Bob Jones University coarse, they are way to creationist and believe one should live their life in fear and not go to space or dive under the sea! I am a devout Christian, but I don't believe in this crap. I do enjoy homeschooling as well, but I don't appreciate people homeschooling for the wrong reasons.

[Endorenna]

Maybe I'm naive, but if any school I went to said that anyone who didn't believe in evolution was a "fool", the parents would be on them like freaking wolves.

 

Okay, guess we've run into different groups of evolutionists.

 

I'm being nitpicky, but I still have a problem with this.

 

Why not just teach it? Why does "this isn't what really happened" have to be tossed in? Isn't that JUST as bad as the teachers calling people "fools"?

 

Once "this isn't really what happened" gets thrown in, what is the real point of teaching any further? I know I already made the point that its needed to get through school, but if you're going to contaminate the education from the get go then...

 

Pulling your kids out of school because of bad teachers is noble, but I find it hypocritical to turn around and spray the same contamination you're protesting.

 

What are parents supposed to do? Teach both evolution and creation as fact, then sit back and watch as their kids struggle to reconcile those views? Children aren't scientists--they can't review the raw facts themselves and do those facts justice.

 

Also...how are parents supposed to be completely unbiased? Should they never tell their kids what the Bible, the book that their religion is based on, says? Should they, who believe that their children will burn forever in hell without God, just forego teaching them how to escape the flames? That would be completely irresponsible and, frankly, reprehensible.

 

Beyond that, everyone has a bias (or a worldview, or whatever you want to call it). It's impossible to teach facts without showing a bias.