Acorn Video Fake

[Web Rider]

To be honest, I hadn't heard of this video in the first place. As soon as the Right started using ACORN to attack Obama, I just started tuning everyone out when they mentioned it. As much as voter fraud or accusing someone of child prostitution is an important issue, ACORN has been nothing but a massive red herring for the Obama administration. There really are more important things on the table, so to be frank, I don't really care.

[Darth Avlectus]

 

For the record I never said anything where ACORN should get off for the voters registration fraud. I just find it funny that we are condemning the entire organization and all those associated with being corrupt. It like people don’t even understand the concept of different divisions within an organization.

 

Or are you all saying that voter registration fraud makes the entire origination corrupt?

I don't specifically remember saying that but since we're on with it...let's see what I said:

 

Yeah, if ACORN is actually doing something wrong, I don't want them involved in our voting system. Period.

 

Hm. I meant in the context that all of these organizations cheat to some extent or another, they're all dirty. It's kind of a dirty line of work.

 

Harsh though it is, I don't believe I'm being unfair b/c I look at all organizations like acorn to be corrupt at some level or another. More just "I'm not terribly surprised" response to it...

 

There can be good people working for a bad organization--they're good until they decide to go along with it as a conscious decision. When and where ever that might be.

 

Extremely common mistake, yes, but not an entirely innocent one as they, in their defense, would have you believe. All of them do it, though, so you would be correct in the assumption that it is for tilting the election in their favor. The question here is how they go about it. Malicious or not, cheating is still cheating.

 

 

 

I suppose that is sensible enough. Only time will tell.

 

Here I believe they shouldn't get off on the cheating for which they were caught. I don't believe I'm ensung anything else.

[mimartin]

GTA I was not accusing you of writing that. I actually agree with you more in this thread than most of the others. If someone is guilty of a crime then I am all for punishing them. If a organization or corporation is guilty of a crime then I am all for punishing everyone involved. What I am not for is throwing out the baby with the bathwater just because it is easiest thing to do. I am also against punishing someone for a crime they did not commit just because they committed other crimes they were already punished for.

 

For the record I am a patriot, I love my country just as much as anyone on the other side as the political spectrum.

[Arcesious]

I wonder how much else has been bold-faced lying/misinformation. Probably a lot. The only thing I think that we need to be careful of here though is getting into that confirmation bias fueled conspiracy theorist mode of thinking. I'm not saying that that's what happened here with this debunk of the ACORN stuff, as this looks like a pretty well thought out researching of the whole thing.

 

Still, I think this brings up the issue of conspiracy hypotheses, (why give them the credit of the title of 'theory', anyways?) as misinformation can be a big issue for anyone looking for the truth. I often have found myself trying to decide if a certain conspiracy hypothesis is true or not, but the lack of solid facts always seems to leave me where I started - undecided. It's a pointless process without solid facts: attempt to prove hypothesis, attempt to debunk proof, attempt to debunk the debunking, attempt to debunk the debunk of the debunking, etc, etc.

 

I hope that history books in the future will shed light on the secrets of these years when I'm older.

[Ping]

ACORN certainly isn't a perfect organization, but I am extremely angered at James O'Keefe for spreading lies. In my eyes, as soon as you demonize an organization through slander, then you yourself have become that demon you're trying to portray. As far as I'm concerned, O'Keefe can go to hell.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Yes, feel free to tie my views into those extremists and be completely counter productive. Doesn't that make you feel great?

 

My sources for my original statement were several major networks during the 2008 election, FYI.

 

And frankly, it's a sad thing that we have come to the point where is associated with extremism and is used as a derogatory remark.

 

[Q]

^Case in point.

 

And, in case anyone failed to notice, voter registration fraud is a form of lying. I thought that it was worth pointing that out before this thread is completely given over to partisan bias.

[mimartin]

And, in case anyone failed to notice, voter registration fraud is a form of lying. I thought that it was worth pointing that out before this thread is completely given over to partisan bias.

 

I'd agree with that, but does a few people lying automatically mean everyone associated with them are lairs? Many of that worked/volunteered for ACORN had nothing to do with voter registration, so are they guilty too? However this thread is about a fake video, not about voter registration fraud.

[Darth Avlectus]

^^^No, however I still think they ought to have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business, just like anyone else. Thaty way despite their reputation they sort of have a new slate to start from.

[Q]

I still think they ought to have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business...

...or receive government funding.

 

I don't particularly like the idea of my tax dollars being used to finance fraud.

[Liverandbacon]

Obviously, ACORN shouldn't be held responsible for the video, since it's become totally unclear what was fabricated and what wasn't. Although the entire organization wasn't responsible for causing the voting fraud, such fraud still makes the organization unreliable, and ACORN should take some time separated from the voting process in order to clean up its internal messes (any punishment beyond cutting them out of the election process would be over the top).

 

~Real, non-brolled, 100% pimp Bishop Liver C-Note Bacon signin' out.

[Web Rider]

^^^No, however I still think they ought to have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business, just like anyone else. Thaty way despite their reputation they sort of have a new slate to start from.

 

It wouldn't help, even if they did, the people using their mistakes would go "well, back in 2009 ACORN did this! Oh they say they've changed their ways, but even though I have no evidence, my gut tells me they're the same!" Once their tarnished, they're tarnished for good.

 

...or receive government funding.

 

I don't particularly like the idea of my tax dollars being used to finance fraud.

 

Then the list of who you think we should stop funding is probably VERY VERY long.

[Q]

That it is. I wonder how much money could be saved if all of the corruption were cleaned up. Maybe enough to pay off the deficit instead of increasing it every year?

[mimartin]

^^^No, however I still think they ought to have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business, just like anyone else.

Like whoelse percisely? Ann Coulter? The Banking Industry? Halliburton? The U.S. Army? The Supreme Court?

[Darth Avlectus]

Like whoelse percisely?

 

Precisely anyone involved in actually registering voters. Not only does that go for ACORN, but their counterparts as well.

 

Ann Coulter? The Banking Industry? Halliburton? The U.S. Army? The Supreme Court?

 

So to put me on the defensive, you imply I'm just giving acorn a hard time b/c they're democrat based and got caught in the act--gotcha.

Well I think George Bush is a coward and he was a republican.

 

As to picking specific people out, sure I wish we would do that. Why don't we do that?

 

Unfortunately, hate to admit it but Web has a point:

It wouldn't help, even if they did, the people using their mistakes would go "well, back in 2009 ACORN did this! Oh they say they've changed their ways, but even though I have no evidence, my gut tells me they're the same!" Once their tarnished, they're tarnished for good.

 

The mistrust once there is always there, yes. Frankly, you screw with the voting system, you ought to go down for it. Presumed innocent until proven guilty, though.

 

Then I guess it's back to square one. So either we choose:

let them continue with corruption and vested interests or

cut them down and have another rise to take their place.

 

Take your pick. And I guess if we're going by this standard, firing only the few who did it wouldn't mean much if later on the same sort of thing is uncovered again. I'm still all for firing the specific douchebags, though.

 

Despite that there isn't always evidence, suppose the person saying that...well, long and short of it, consider the source.

 

Or we could just pretend people mean well and go on like we have been.

[Totenkopf]

It wouldn't help, even if they did, the people using their mistakes would go "well, back in 2009 ACORN did this! Oh they say they've changed their ways, but even though I have no evidence, my gut tells me they're the same!" Once their tarnished, they're tarnished for good.

 

No one said redemption is easy. Fortunately, no one has to have unanimity of public opinion on their side to "be rehabilitated" legally. As to ACORN, some other group will merely rise in its place if it disbands and probably most of the same people. Same Bat time, same Bat channel.

[mimartin]

Precisely anyone involved in actually registering voters. Not only does that go for ACORN, but their counterparts as well.[/Quote] So not only those involved in fraudulently registering voters, but the people/supervisors but the entire origination should also “have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business, just like anyone else” Is that what you are writing? Because it seems to be what your implying.

So to put me on the defensive, you imply I'm just giving acorn a hard time b/c they're democrat based and got caught in the act--gotcha.[/Quote] Other than Ann Coulter, what do any of my examples have to do with Republicans or Democrats? I’m saying you are giving ACORN a harder time than you are Ann Coulter (for the same offense) because there is no FAKE VIDEO depicting Ann Coulter as helping underage prostitution, so there was no non-stop coverage all over the web and FoxNews stating how evil and corrupt Ann Coulter allegedly is for months on end.

 

While I do agree with WebRider up to a point, I however believe 1). Those not involved in corrupt behavior don’t need to change. Not everyone that was involved with ACORN was corrupt. 2.) I also disagree that people cannot change. I just believe for change to happen it must be their decision and not something that can be forced upon them.

 

I also find it extremely funny that the people that caught most of the instances of voters’ fraud by ACORN was ACORN and then they reported it to authorities for investigation and prosecution. Yea, sound like an organization full of low lives and scum to me.

 

As to ACORN, some other group will merely rise in its place if it disbands and probably most of the same people. Same Bat time, same Bat channel.

I certainly hope another organization will rise up to help the plight of the poor with housing and political matters. It is pretty easy for the President of Well Fargo to get a meeting with his/her representative, I don’t believe the same can be said for a single mother making minimum wage as a waitress. Organizations that give the poor a voice are a good thing.

 

Wait that is a socialist mentality isn’t it?

[Totenkopf]

I certainly hope another organization will rise up to help the plight of the poor with housing and political matters. It is pretty easy for the President of Well Fargo to get a meeting with his/her representative, I don’t believe the same can be said for a single mother making minimum wage as a waitress. Organizations that give the poor a voice are a good thing.

 

Wait that is a socialist mentality isn’t it?

 

Not necessarily. Private organizations helping the poor isn't of itself socialist and is even admirable. Creatin' and enshrining a public version of that "help", is. Of course it doesn't help when organizations like ACORN, SEIU and such tilt very heavily to the political left and want to create new entitlements at everyone else's expense.

 

So not only those involved in fraudulently registering voters, but the people/supervisors but the entire origination should also “have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business, just like anyone else” Is that what you are writing? Because it seems to be what your implying.

 

Perhaps, like w/Arthur Anderson below, the organizations have done themselves in. Doubt anyone really believes all the accountants (and other employees) there were criminals either. Still, I guess a "gutting investigation" might be one way to seperate the innocent from the guilty.

 

 

The most famous scandal case Arthur Anderson scandal was involved in was the fraudulent auditing of Enron. In this case Arthur Anderson shredded vital documents sourcing the audit of Enron which occurred in the year 2002.

 

This led to further speculation about the fraudulent and corrupt actions of Arthur Anderson scandal. Worldcom became bankrupt after further investigation.

 

After this vital investigation into American corporations, Arthur Anderson was convicted but the ruling was overturned in the United States Supreme Court.

 

Due to the downfall of Arthur Anderson, it lost nearly all of its business and clients.

 

It lost not millions but billions of dollars due to this intense investigation. Although it is still in business and operating under Omega Management and has not as of yet declared bankruptcy, the firm will never reach its past legacy.

 

Arthur Anderson's motto of "Think straight, talk straight" has forever been tainted in the eyes of Americans corporations. This devastation of fraudulent activity has forever left a deep and painful scar on America 's businesses.

[Q]

Organizations that give the poor a voice are a good thing.

Who's voice, though? The poor's, or ACORN's?

 

And I don't think that any organization that tries to influence the vote to its own ends should be receiving government money. Period.

[mimartin]

Perhaps, like w/Arthur Anderson below, the organizations have done themselves in. Doubt anyone really believes all the accountants (and other employees) there were criminals either. Still, I guess a "gutting investigation" might be one way to seperate the innocent from the guilty.

So we should gut the military because of Abu Ghraib? I’d totally agree with you, if we are willing to hold everyone to the same standard.

 

Who's voice, though? The poor's, or ACORN's?[/Quote] Does the NRA fully represent all its member? Does any organization fully represent all its members? Seems you are trying to put a higher standard on ACORN than any other organization that gives voice to its members? Tell me is ACORN representing that waitress’ interest better than that Wells Fargo Banker?

 

And I don't think that any organization that tries to influence the vote to its own ends should be receiving government money. Period.

And that has to do with what? No, they should not receive money from the government for registering voters, but neither should anyone else that has participated in voter registration fraud.

[Totenkopf]

So we should gut the military because of Abu Ghraib? I’d totally agree with you, if we are willing to hold everyone to the same standard.

 

Perhaps, if Abu Ghraib were more than ONE isolated incident in one AO, you might have a stronger case for a bigger shakeup of things. Still, I guess we'd have to gut the Ways and Means committee in Congress b/c of people like Rangel if we're going to be that inclusive. Maybe dismantling/scaling down a bloated Congress and series of administrative agencies might be a good thing. Hell, I'd even be for a more rigorous investigation of the scientific community in this country and the degree to which massive infusions of money (in the form of grants et al..) into certain issues have impacted or even attempted to impact govt policy. Same goes for unions like AFL-CIO, SEIU, etc...

[mimartin]

So you are all for investigating organization/institutions with perceived leanings to the left. Got it.

[Totenkopf]

As much as you're for going after the perceived right leaning ones.

[mimartin]

That is totally not true, I am for the investigation and prosecution of the wrong doer, I am not now nor have I ever advocated that we have a “gutting investigation’ of anyone. IMO those types of witch hunts end up being a huge waste of money and resources (Kenneth Starr anyone). Investigations for mere political gain are just as wrong as the original crime. What I believe should happen is the DA for whatever jurisdiction should investigate and charge the wrong doer with a crime, then a jury should decide their fate. Oh wait, that is how it worked until James Keefe decided to fake the video depicting ACORN as a rogue entity whose goal was to prostitute our children for political gain. FoxNews without proper investigation and without seeing the unedited video used it in propaganda machine against the left.

 

Jae wrote ealier in this thread:

About as good as the fact-checking by CBS with Bush, looks like.

I would say this is worse, and my reasoning as nothing to do with the type of document or the lack of verification. When Dan Rather and CBS were caught they reluctantly retracted the story, fired a producer and asked 3 others to resign. The story also forced Dan Rather into early retirement.

 

Where is FoxNews retraction? How many producers have been fired or force to resign? Is Hannity being forced out?

 

The only counter discussion I’m seeing is ACORN is evil they committed voter fraud. What does that really have to do with the fake video? Nothing, just a way to muddy up the waters.

[machievelli]

The problem with the poor and 'enfranchising them' by giving them government stipends is that since the early 30s, the Pauper's Oath was removed.

 

Under American law (Usually in a legal case both criminal and Civil) a person could stand up in front of the court and state that he could not afford an attorney, at which point the court would appoint one. But it was also used to stop people capable of working from leaving the job market at public expense.

 

Under the Pauper's oath, you also were not allowed to vote until you were no longer receiving such stipends.

 

Admittedly with 40% of the population out of work, removing that many voters would skew the elections, as much as leaving them on the rolls now when they can vote for more money. But it was done to have a solid 40% backing the party that passed the bill.