Ground Zero Mosque

[mimartin]

Except that is more or less the current cultural message of this country.[/Quote] Really? When the latest poll says 75% of American's oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, I fail to see how that is possible.

 

Fox News is one news corporation out of many major networks, and is the only network that actually represents the political right of the country. They also at least make their agenda known, unlike any other network.

Yea, the slogan "Fair and Balanced" paints a perfect picture of FoxNews FalseNews.

[Lord of Hunger]

Really? When the latest poll says 75% of American's oppose the Ground Zero Mosque, I fail to see how that is possible.

Except those Americans don't really control the voice of the country, and the voice of the country says otherwise.

 

I'm not saying it's a conspiracy. I'm saying that the left hand doesn't really know what the right hand is doing, and etc with every other part of the body. This is mostly the case due to lack of actual leadership.

Yea, the slogan "Fair and Balanced" paints a perfect picture of FoxNews FalseNews.

All networks are biased, but most don't acknowledge it and try to sneak their agenda into unrelated topics. Fox may not be Fair and Balanced, but its bias is obvious.

[Darth333]

I don't entirely blame them for those posters. Sharia law as it has been interpreted in the past two centuries has been responsible for countless acts of brutality and evil.

Huh...I know I wasn't there either for the "past few centuries" (I might already be qualified as "old" to some people but not I'm not that old...yet ) but where did you borrowed that "history" book? Anyway, I am sure anyone could borrow a book about "Christiany's sins" in the past few centuries just as easily. Humans are humans...with all their qualities and defects (which are not always at the same place depending on individuals: we're all "unique" ...like "everyone else") and many of such individuals will use whatever they can to get what they want, regardless of others (religion, race, culture, language, etc..) and regardless of consequences.

 

 

Yes, I know such thing occurred under Christianity too, but there are no Christian extremist groups at war with the US right now

There are many extremist Christian groups within the US and America as whole (I am Christian too but I do not share their views: Christ message was a message of acceptance, peace and tolerance to make human life better as a whole IMHO) and I am as scared of such groups than I am about any Muslim extremist group ). Extremism, whether Christian, Muslim or other is not constructive but divisive. I despise Christian extremism as much as I despise Muslim extremism.

 

voice of the country"

...wtf does that mean? or even better:"I'm saying that the left hand doesn't really know what the right hand is doing, and etc with every other part of the body? "

Please, I, being a foreigner, indulge me...

 

 

Runs away, screaming...runs into some Martians: + + = "To self, in a robotic tone" : Back to square one

[Totenkopf]

..voice of the country

...wtf does that mean? or even better:"I'm saying that the left hand doesn't really know what the right hand is doing, and etc with every other part of the body? "

Please, I, being a foreigner, indulge me...

 

It might have been more correct to make a distinction between the voice of the "mainstream" mass media (which is predominantly liberal in the US) vs that of Fox and talk radio, or even the public in general. America is basically a "center-right" country, while many in the media and academia tend to come from the left. As to the other, I'm not clear either.

 

 

 

 

Runs away, screaming...runs into some Martians: + + = "To self, in a robotic tone" : Back to square one

 

Well, as long as you're in outer space, could you teleport me a hunk of precious metal meteroite or asteroid. Could use the $$.

[Lord of Hunger]

Huh...I know I wasn't there either for the "past few centuries" (I might already be qualified as "old" to some people but not I'm not that old...yet ) but where did you borrowed that "history" book? Anyway, I am sure anyone could borrow a book about "Christiany's sins" in the past few centuries just as easily. Humans are humans...with all their qualities and defects (which are not always at the same place depending on individuals: we're all "unique" ...like "everyone else") and many of such individuals will use whatever they can to get what they want, regardless of others (religion, race, culture, language, etc..) and regardless of consequences.

 

 

There are many extremist Christian groups within the US and America as whole (I am Christian too but I do not share their views: Christ message was a message of acceptance, peace and tolerance to make human life better as a whole IMHO) and I am as scared of such groups than I am about any Muslim extremist group ). Extremism, whether Christian, Muslim or other is not constructive but divisive. I despise Christian extremism as much as I despise Muslim extremism.

I do not deny the existence of Christian extremists, but between the two groups, which is currently more prone to assault the United States and its allies currently. Muslim extremists are currently the more immediate problem, and once we have that problem under control I would wholeheartedly support focusing on Christian extremism, as well as Jewish extremism, Hindi extremism, and Buddhist extremism (though I doubt those last three are of any major significance compared to the former two).

 

And also, Christianity has in many ways evolved. I happen to be part Catholic, and just about every Catholic I know does not believe in Genesis-style Creationism and supports sexual education in public schools. Of course, there are a few hold-outs, but their disagreement is very respectful.

 

I am more fearful of Muslim extremism right now because Islam was the more evolved religion in its beginnings, but has since gone downhill. That, and again the fact that Islamic terrorists are currently among America's greatest enemies.

...wtf does that mean? or even better:"I'm saying that the left hand doesn't really know what the right hand is doing, and etc with every other part of the body? "

Please, I, being a foreigner, indulge me...

It might have been more correct to make a distinction between the voice of the "mainstream" mass media (which is predominantly liberal in the US) vs that of Fox and talk radio, or even the public in general. America is basically a "center-right" country, while many in the media and academia tend to come from the left. As to the other, I'm not clear either.

Totenkopf, you are more or less on the mark. Essentially, most media and educational entities embrace a very leftist view of the world, which is more often than not very hypercritical of the United States (at least in my studies). As for the left hand and the right hand, what I am trying to say is that America has no sense of unity. Ironically, our unity is caused by our diversity, but it doesn't really work in the opposite direction. We've tried to be more united despite diversity, but it only serves to highlight our differences and put them forwards as obstacles. I mostly blame political correctness for this problem: we keep assigning these labels of racism and intolerance, which is going to happen because we are human beings who disagree. I'd rather that we actively disagree, and then find common ground rather than trying to find common ground despite disagreeing. But as long as we have these two camps, we're ultimately going have this duality of "tolerance" and "intolerance" that doesn't really represent what America is.

[Totenkopf]

Problem w/protests is that they often only involve a microcosm of society at large and the coverage is usually cherry picked by the national media.

 

http://bigjournalism.com/alafferty/2010/08/25/report-from-the-front-lines-apparent-abc-employee-in-confrontation-with-ground-zero-mosque-protestor/

 

Perhaps I should have also included "attempting to create" in addition to cherry picking....

[JediMaster12]

I have read the article from the Times magazine that my mother gets from her school since they do Times for current/history events. The article was entitled 'Are Americans Islamophobic?' Out loud I actually said that it seems yes Americans are becoming Islamophobic. I don't mean that all are that way but it seems that there is a vast majority out there and increasingly in my family of bigot hypocrits that will bad mouth Arabs and Muslims.

 

The issue of building a mosque two blocks from where the World Trade Center was (I refuse to call it Ground Zero) is frankly stupid. According to the article, the building in question has been used as a prayer gathering for Muslims long before the events of September 11th. If anything I have observed is that America in general has a short memory. Personally I would think that our founding fathers would be weeping at the thought that their descendants are forgetting the reason their forefathers came to this country, to secure freedom both politically and religiously.

 

While Totenkopf and others have been talking about a moderate America in terms of alignment, it is hard to conceive it when your personal reality is surrounded by uber conservatives. I commented that my family contains bigoted hypocrites and it is sadly true. I say hypocrites because they preach about "being Christian" when they go and turn around and use ethnic slurs deliberately as an insult and an excuse for the problems of the country. I am sure that there are other people out there whose realities seem different than what the overall reality is. All a matter of perspective.

 

This business about the mosque is just another thing that will bring us down. I am tired of hearing that America is a Christian nation. Truth is, it is not. The founding fathers were deists at best with about 46 of them being Freemasons. Oh ye sthey believed in God but I don't think in the fervor that our homegrown Christian extremists think. The mosque is not going to hurt anyone. That building was being used as a place of worship long before September 11 and the World Trade Center fell. This business is messy indeed.

[Ping]

I have read the article from the Times magazine that my mother gets from her school since they do Times for current/history events. The article was entitled 'Are Americans Islamophobic?' Out loud I actually said that it seems yes Americans are becoming Islamophobic. I don't mean that all are that way but it seems that there is a vast majority out there and increasingly in my family of bigot hypocrits that will bad mouth Arabs and Muslims.

 

The issue of building a mosque two blocks from where the World Trade Center was (I refuse to call it Ground Zero) is frankly stupid. According to the article, the building in question has been used as a prayer gathering for Muslims long before the events of September 11th. If anything I have observed is that America in general has a short memory. Personally I would think that our founding fathers would be weeping at the thought that their descendants are forgetting the reason their forefathers came to this country, to secure freedom both politically and religiously.

 

While Totenkopf and others have been talking about a moderate America in terms of alignment, it is hard to conceive it when your personal reality is surrounded by uber conservatives. I commented that my family contains bigoted hypocrites and it is sadly true. I say hypocrites because they preach about "being Christian" when they go and turn around and use ethnic slurs deliberately as an insult and an excuse for the problems of the country. I am sure that there are other people out there whose realities seem different than what the overall reality is. All a matter of perspective.

 

This business about the mosque is just another thing that will bring us down. I am tired of hearing that America is a Christian nation. Truth is, it is not. The founding fathers were deists at best with about 46 of them being Freemasons. Oh ye sthey believed in God but I don't think in the fervor that our homegrown Christian extremists think. The mosque is not going to hurt anyone. That building was being used as a place of worship long before September 11 and the World Trade Center fell. This business is messy indeed.

 

100% agreed.

[Lord of Hunger]

http://bigjournalism.com/alafferty/2010/08/25/report-from-the-front-lines-apparent-abc-employee-in-confrontation-with-ground-zero-mosque-protestor/

 

Perhaps I should have also included "attempting to create" in addition to cherry picking....

Why I am not surprised this happened, or should I say happens?

 

Oh, and more news:

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_newyorkcity_mosque;_ylt=Au2Iv58ZriMqTTJApPFdLLCs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNwMjJ1NDFwBGFzc2V0A25tLzIwMTAwODI3L3VzX25ld3lvcmtjaXR5X21vc3F1ZQRjY29kZQNtb3N0cG9wdWxhcgRjcG9zAzcEcG9zAzQEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9saXN0BHNsawNncm91bmR6ZXJvbXU-

 

It looks like our Federal Government is going to help pay for it.

[mimartin]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_newyorkcity_mosque;_ylt=Au2Iv58ZriMqTTJApPFdLLCs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNwMjJ1NDFwBGFzc2V0A25tLzIwMTAwODI3L3VzX25ld3lvcmtjaXR5X21vc3F1ZQRjY29kZQNtb3N0cG9wdWxhcgRjcG9zAzcEcG9zAzQEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9saXN0BHNsawNncm91bmR6ZXJvbXU-

 

It looks like our Federal Government is going to help pay for it.

No Spin Zone.

 

Tax free finance does not mean the Federal Government is paying for it. I actually thought all churches got such financing if they could prove their benefit to the community (oh wait, the article says as much).

Tax Laws allow such funding for religiously affiliated non-profits if they can prove the facility will benefit the general public and their religious activities are funded separately.[/Quote]

Personally I’d be all for changing that tax law so that all religious institutions were taxed.

 

What are you implying that they should not do this practice for a Mosque? But continue for other religious institutions?

[Liverandbacon]

Out loud I actually said that it seems yes Americans are becoming Islamophobic. I don't mean that all are that way but it seems that there is a vast majority out there and increasingly in my family of bigot hypocrites that will bad mouth Arabs and Muslims.

...

While Totenkopf and others have been talking about a moderate America in terms of alignment, it is hard to conceive it when your personal reality is surrounded by uber conservatives.

 

Luckily, I believe that you're right that your perception has been skewed by the environment you live in. The vast majority of US citizens are not like your family.

 

I'd go out on a limb here (going out on a limb because this is very much based only on personal experience) and say that even the vast majority of hardcore conservatives aren't like your family. Though the Army is a bit more diverse than many give it credit for, the majority of people in it do fall on the right-hand side of the political spectrum (I tend to oscillate between sides depending on the issue). Most of the people I worked with were pretty reasonable about Islam, and any ethnic slurs used (I'm not going to pretend they weren't used) were directed solely at the enemy, not your average Afghan or Iraqi on the street.

 

So yeah, I seriously disagree with the notion that the majority of the US is Islamophobic. Personally, I'm just afraid of people with more conviction than sense, no matter what set of beliefs.

 

I do agree with you on hating when people call the US a "Christian nation". I just point out that the US is a constitutional nations, and the US being a "Christian nation" would be a clear violation of the establishment clause of the 1st amendment.

[Lord of Hunger]

No Spin Zone.

 

Tax free finance does not mean the Federal Government is paying for it. I actually thought all churches got such financing if they could prove their benefit to the community (oh wait, the article says as much).

 

Personally I’d be all for changing that tax law so that all religious institutions were taxed.

 

What are you implying that they should not do this practice for a Mosque? But continue for other religious institutions?

Again, I am not debating principle. I am debating a specific case.

 

Here, the Government is helping along the finances for a mosque to be built a ground zero. This is not their job, as they have plenty other things to worry about.

 

I am all for anyone building a mosque, church, shrine, anywhere else and getting the tax exemption as normal. But not here. We haven't even built the Freedom Tower yet, and they're already considering supporting the finances of an act that is very much against the interests and happiness of the AMERICAN PEOPLE.

 

And as for a "Christian nation", I think that refers to the fact that the vast majority of Americans are Christians, including family heritage.

[mimartin]

You're not debating anything.

 

 

1. The Mosque is not being built at Ground Zero.

 

2. The Government is not helping.

 

3. You cannot pick and choice who gets Tax Free Financing. (Either they qualify or they don’t.)

 

1st that would be discrimination

 

2nd the location as nothing to do with Tax Law (as they are written today), you cannot change the law after the fact – See Clause 3 of Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution (or Google EX POS FACTO LAW).

 

You are saying it is against the interest in the case of the Mosque. However, the law was not written for this particular case. Like I wrote above, I'm all for taxing EVERY church, but any politician saying that would be committing political suicide. A law only against Muslims or this Mosque would also be unconstitutional.

[VeniVidiVicous]

I am all for anyone building a mosque, church, shrine, anywhere else and getting the tax exemption as normal. But not here. We haven't even built the Freedom Tower yet, and they're already considering supporting the finances of an act that is very much against the interests and happiness of the AMERICAN PEOPLE.

 

You're either for tax exemption for religous institutions or you're not, you can't just support paticular religions.

 

Personally I wouldn't financially support any religous organisation.

[jrrtoken]

Ron Paul says that the protests of the mosque are "Islamophobic".

 

Ya'll 've been exiled.

[Totenkopf]

Ron Paul says that the protests of the mosque are "Islamophobic".

 

Ya'll 've been exiled.

 

The gadfly has spoken, apparently.

 

As to taxing religions and churches/temples/mosques/etc., that would appear to be a convenient violation of the "hallowed concept" of seperation of church and state. If they can be taxed, they and their activities can also be funded by govt money or use of govt property as well.

 

As far as the concept of "christian nation" goes, that's more a reflection of America's cultural beginnings, not a statement about its form of govt. Being a "place your religion here" nation does not axiomatically make you a theocracy, which is a form of govt that most of us here would oppose.

[Arcesious]

Go ahead and let religious institutions not have taxes. Its not really a big deal. Besides, religious institutions do provide a great deal of charity anyways.

 

I suppose that on principle of fairness many would like a taxing law passed to tax religious institutions, but IMO, the whole issue should just be left alone.

[mimartin]

Ron Paul says that the protests of the mosque are "Islamophobic".

 

Either I need to rethink my position or I believe this is the first time Ron Paul and I have agreed on anything. By some strange coincidence this is also the first time Ron Paul has ever been right.

 

Churches in the U.S. can be taxed and taxed constitutionally, Christian Echoes Ministry loss it tax exempt status for endorsing Barry Goldwater in 1964. The IRS revoked the exemption because churches are not allowed participate actively in political campaigns. The decision was affirmed by the Tenth Circuit Court in 1972.

 

In 1993, Old Time Gospel Hour (Jerry Falwell) also had its tax-exempt status removed for 1986 & 1987 and was fined $50,000 for illegally funneling money to conservative political candidates.

 

Also in 1993, a church in Binghamton, New York had it tax-exempt status removed for taking out a political ad in USA Today and The Washington Times against Bill Clinton.

 

I’m sure there are others, but there are three that clearly show churches are allowed to be tax-exempt and it is not a right guaranteed by the Constitution.

[Lord of Hunger]

You're not debating anything.

 

1. The Mosque is not being built at Ground Zero.

Every indication says it is.

2. The Government is not helping.

The President has spoken in support of this mosque.

3. You cannot pick and choice who gets Tax Free Financing. (Either they qualify or they don’t.)

 

1st that would be discrimination

 

2nd the location as nothing to do with Tax Law (as they are written today), you cannot change the law after the fact – See Clause 3 of Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution (or Google EX POS FACTO LAW).

 

You are saying it is against the interest in the case of the Mosque. However, the law was not written for this particular case. Like I wrote above, I'm all for taxing EVERY church, but any politician saying that would be committing political suicide. A law only against Muslims or this Mosque would also be unconstitutional.

I am not saying against Muslims or Mosques in general, just THIS MOSQUE.

You're either for tax exemption for religous institutions or you're not, you can't just support paticular religions.

Please do not misrepresent my views. This has nothing to do with any particular religion. It has to do with the extremists of a particular religion being supported by the construction of a particular building.

 

Let me make myself clear on my position, since I personally feel that something is not being understood:

 

This Mosque is being built on the site of the 9/11 attacks, which were caused by Muslim Extremists.

 

Most (not necessarily all but at least the vast majority of) Muslim Extremists promote the destruction of Western Civilization and the establishment of a global caliphate in order to realize a Sharia Utopia, and have stated this to be their goal.

 

The majority of the American people feel this is disrespectful to them, those who died in the attack, and the nation in general. Our President and other government officials have ignored their feelings and are supporting the construction of the Mosque.

 

Therefore, in the interests of national security, in support of our military opposing the forces of Islamic Extremism, and out of respect of the American people past, present, and future, THIS MOSQUE should not be built.

 

To clarify further the definition "THIS MOSQUE": It is a Mosque built upon the site of 9/11. The range of this site varies from individual view, but I personal see it as anything within about 4 miles.

 

To further clarify, I do not oppose Mosque construction in any other part of the country, or the free practice of any religion. I oppose THIS MOSQUE alone.

 

And yes, I believe exceptions to such laws should be possible when they are just. This is such an example, which is very rare. And no, I am not making up this as I go. I have never believed that laws should be absolute from day one, and I still don't.

[mimartin]

My definition of Ground Zero is the site of the World Trade Center.

 

The President and the government is not disrespecting those that died on September 11th, 2001. First this is not a federal issue, it is a New York State and New York City issue. 2nd if you really want to use that logic, if the government persecuted one religion because of what extremist did, then they would be disrespecting everyone that has ever fought, was wounded or died defending the freedoms this country stands for.

 

For the record, I do not support Al-Qaeda building a Mosque anywhere in the United States, however Al-Qaeda is not building this Mosque in New York.

[Lord of Hunger]

The President and the government is not disrespecting those that died on September 11th, 2001.

How is that not disrespect?

First this is not a federal issue, it is a New York State and New York City issue.

The Federal Government has made it a Federal Issue by expressing support.

2nd if you really want to use that logic, if the government persecuted one religion because of what extremist did, then they would be disrespecting everyone that has ever fought, was wounded or died defending the freedoms this country stands for.

I am having a tough time understanding this: Why are you defending an American principle when it is clearly in this situation contrary to the interests of the American people? Are they not the reason why those laws exist?

 

Again, why take the moral high-ground when the enemy has already asked for spiritual damnation from their own religion (considering Islam in literal, unbiased translation condemns such dishonorable behavior)? I think we can afford to fight dirty.

 

And as for offending the Islamic community, the idea that they can be offended by that is bull. We have the right to feel hurt from this act of evil.

For the record, I do not support Al-Qaeda building a Mosque anywhere in the United States, however Al-Qaeda is not building this Mosque in New York.

They aren't building a mosque, but building a mosque there is support for their cause as they wanted a mosque there in the first place. Hell, another terrorist group, Hamas, wants that mosque built too (their leaders actually said such).

[Tommycat]

LOH. I'm going to be pretty blunt, so please forgive me.

 

Just because extremist elements within a religion attack us does not automatically relieve us of the obligation to remain on the high road. In fact it is even more reason to keep the high ground. We need to step up and be the bigger people. While those who are out to destroy us tell theworld how bad we are they lose credibility when we turn around and forgive.

 

You talk of Christian values, but Jesus himself says to turn the other cheek. Forgiveness is divine.

 

And mimartin while it isn't "a mosque " in name. It does have a prayer room that can hold 1000 people at once. That is an awfully big prayer room

[mimartin]

The only way Muslim extremist will defeat the U.S. is if we allow our fear to destroy the principles this country was founded on. It is not the high road, it is the right road.

 

As to the government speaking out in favor of the Mosque, well they took an oath to defend the Constitution, so they dang well should speak up in defending the 1st Amendment. I find it really funny that the “so-called” Socialist is the one stepping up to defend property rights, while the conservative talking heads seem to be against property rights.

 

As for hurting someone’s feelings, I could care less about feelings or if someone’s feelings are hurt. This is about property rights and discrimination. They bought the property and as long as they abide by all existing laws and ordinances then they have the right to do with it what they want. The government cannot stop them from building just because they are Muslim. That would be discrimination (which frankly LOH you seem to be advocating). The Constitution protects individual rights, so the majority not liking it is a moot point, unless you are also advocating changing the Constitution, because as I pointed out before you cannot pass a ex pos facto law.

 

And mimartin while it isn't "a mosque " in name. It does have a prayer room that can hold 1000 people at once. That is an awfully big prayer room

Never meant to imply otherwise, only meant to imply that it was not at ground zero.

[Tommycat]

 

Here's the aerial view for reference. It's technically only two blocks from the WTC complex. One block from the destruction. Even many New York Muslims are opposed to the location. A notable one was the cab driver that was stabbed recently.

[mimartin]

Here's the aerial view for reference. It's technically only two blocks from the WTC complex.[/Quote] Which only proves the Mosque site is not at ground zero.

Ground Zero – 1. Exact point where a nuclear explosion happens. 2. A place at the center of fast or violent change.[/Quote] The photo clearly shows the Mosque is not at the center.

 

 

A notable one was the cab driver that was stabbed recently.

I do not dispute that people are against it (I’m not on the extreme right), I don’t have a problem with opinion polls that do not coincide with my opinion. I don’t know anyone in the real world that are actual for the building of the Mosque (Texas). However, that all means nothing. The only thing I’m looking at is if it can be legally built or not. Do they have the right to build it? Personally if I was a decision maker, I would not build it there because of backlash. However, I would defend their right to build it with my last breathe. I don’t like people burning the Flag either, but I strongly support their right to do it.