Terry Jones burning the Qur'an

[Astor]

I'm sure many of those who were rioting and even killing were angry about the burning of the Qur'an, but I wonder how many of them were just as angry over this.

 

The killings of those UN staff is reprehensible, and while I'm not trying to defend those responsible, it's not surprising at all.

[Totenkopf]

I have to wonder how many people would be making excuses for violent reactions by Christians, Jews and others if the books being burned were Bibles, Torahs, etc.. Problem with many of the muslim states (at least in the mid East/Africa) is that they have regressed over the last several centuries. If Christianity, and specifically Catholicism, can be smeared for the acts of individuals w/in it's ranks.....or whole nations as in the case of Germany/Japan during WW2....then the muslims as a group are fair game. Fact is, extremist Isalm is as much a problem for muslims as for the rest of the world...likely even worse. Are ALL muslims evil? No more than people in any ethnic, religious or other group. However, they are going to suffer by association for the sins of people w/in their group.....at least till they're seen taking higher profile actions to stamp out the radicals wherever they raise their ugly heads.

 

As to the whole abortion side issue......when Christian groups start blowing up clinincs with people in them and slaughtering people in large numbers, then you'll have an argument.

[mimartin]

While I agree with most of your argument Totenkopf (hey it happens), I do disagree with the assigning a number criteria to saying something is more or less wrong. One death is one too many. I do think we should assign blame to who is to blame and not an entire group unless that group is condoning the actions of the individuals.

 

As to Terry Jones, Congress should reenact the draft, draft Terry Jones and send him to Afghanistan. (no, I'm not a forgive and forget person)

[jonathan7]

^^I'm suprise nobody's responded to your post yet, J7. However, I do want to point out something that you're trying to make a comparison to.

 

 

Burining a "white baby" is not the same as burning a book, even if the book is holier-than-thou. A human baby is a living entity that is conscious, he/she is alive, moving, etc. A book is not alive, it's a inanimated object, a thing, material bound together used for a personal purpose.

 

And if Muslim extremists were to commit that act, burning a white baby, they'd know morally damn well what the difference is; know matter how much justification they try to reason it with. Deep down in every fiber of their being, they know what is really right and what is really wrong. To say otherwise, would mean that they are all ignorant and I don't believe that one damn bit! They are just as intelligent as the rest of us, they know the difference.

 

But of course this Terry Jones fellow is no better, his burning Qur’ān books is more than just a moral problem, it's also plain ignorance. It's like burning some country's flag, just to get back at them. But it's minor, compared to killing people over a book J7.

 

But this is where the clashes of cultures come, you've missed the entire point of what I was trying to point out. I would agree that killing a baby is entirely secondary to a book. But I was trying to convey is just how shocking an act this was to a Muslim - I speak as someone who works in the Middle East. We are agreed that it's wrong for them to riot and kill over this, and WE think there is a difference between a book and a person. But devout Muslims will have been shocked, offended and extremely angered by the act...

 

And here is another thing, if we were to kill anybody anytime they burned our American flag, then we would be no better than they are. But that's it, isn't it? You don't see us doing that, especially Muslim extremists when they burn our flag, we don't go after them for that specific reason. Why? Because were a little more civil in our thinking, than their mentality or way of thinking, even though the American flag is a sacred object to a lot of U.S. Citizens. For most of us it represents a lot things, freedom most of all, but when someone burns the U.S. flag (even in this country) we all don't go killing them because of it.

 

Different cultures, but as I've SARCASTICALLY QUIPPED to one of my Muslim friends why has God given the West all the Nuclear weapons? If roles were reversed would Muslim nations be as tolerant as the west is with them? Answer is plainly no, we could send the entire Middle East back to the stone age, but of course we never would...

 

I'm sure many of those who were rioting and even killing were angry about the burning of the Qur'an, but I wonder how many of them were just as angry over this.

 

They would of actually been more angry over the burning of the Qur’ān.

 

The killings of those UN staff is reprehensible, and while I'm not trying to defend those responsible, it's not surprising at all.

 

Agreed.

 

I have to wonder how many people would be making excuses for violent reactions by Christians, Jews and others if the books being burned were Bibles, Torahs, etc.. Problem with many of the muslim states (at least in the mid East/Africa) is that they have regressed over the last several centuries. If Christianity, and specifically Catholicism, can be smeared for the acts of individuals w/in it's ranks.....or whole nations as in the case of Germany/Japan during WW2....then the muslims as a group are fair game. Fact is, extremist Isalm is as much a problem for muslims as for the rest of the world...likely even worse. Are ALL muslims evil? No more than people in any ethnic, religious or other group. However, they are going to suffer by association for the sins of people w/in their group.....at least till they're seen taking higher profile actions to stamp out the radicals wherever they raise their ugly heads.

 

As to the whole abortion side issue......when Christian groups start blowing up clinincs with people in them and slaughtering people in large numbers, then you'll have an argument.

 

Tot, I'm not trying to make excuses for them, but if you go into a field with an angry bull do you go over to it wearing red and wind it up?

[Primogen]

God gave the west all the Nuclear Weapons?

 

*Looks at Russia*

 

*Looks at China*

 

*Looks at Israel.*

 

*Looks at Pakistan and India.*

 

Am I missing something here?

 

Anyway, no, the killings are not surprising. Radical Islam makes Hannibal Lecter look well-adjusted. They don't -need- an excuse to kill westerners. They've got it into their heads that we're the product of Iblis or Shaitan or whoever knocking up a pack of wild goats or some crap like that - I imagine our little manipulations of the Middle-East back during the Cold War didn't do us any favors in that department.

 

Anyway, what Terry Jones did was within his rights and let's all be honest, he's a scapegoat. If it hadn't been him burning the Qur'an, they'd have done it because Shaitan copulated with a pack of goats and that's how westerners were created.

[Totenkopf]

While I agree with most of your argument Totenkopf (hey it happens), I do disagree with the assigning a number criteria to saying something is more or less wrong. One death is one too many. I do think we should assign blame to who is to blame and not an entire group unless that group is condoning the actions of the individuals.

 

Actually, wasn't assigning a number to assess wrongness of an act...murder is bad whether you murder 1 or 100....but addressing the problem in terms of scope. If someone kills one one person, that's a problem.....if they kill 100s, that's a bigger problem. Not saying, either, that it's inherently fair to blame a group for the actions of one/some members.....just that it's human to do so. But as I indicated in my examples, I no more blame the non-radicalized muslim for the acts of the islamists than I do all Germans for the Holocaust or all Catholics for the Inquisition.

 

As to Terry Jones, Congress should reenact the draft, draft Terry Jones and send him to Afghanistan. (no, I'm not a forgive and forget person)

 

Tot, I'm not trying to make excuses for them, but if you go into a field with an angry bull do you go over to it wearing red and wind it up?

 

The comment was more a general observation. Not aimed at you (I don't believe you actually think their violent reactions are ok), but much of the media does often allow itself to get caught up in a sort of knee jerk rationalization of radical muslim violence that they would not do for christians, jews, etc.. Many times it's the "blame the US/West first" crowd. I agree that if you're going into another country/culture to fight a war, the whole hearts and minds strategy would dictate some degree of sensitivity. However, violating "free speech rights" (if you ban burning a Koran....how about the flag, bras, Bible, etc...) in civilian society to mollify people who hate your guts in most cases anyway, seems counterproductive. While I won't go quite so far as mimi in calling for an Act of Congress to draft his butt into Afghanistan, treating him like a pariah is fine in my book. I agree that it's a clash of cultures, but we really shouldn't radically abandon our own values b/c our eneny doesn't approve of them. Those 7th century throwbacks (the radicals) have to realize that we're not going to regress too, just to make them feel more comfortable.

[purifier]

I'm sure many of those who were rioting and even killing were angry about the burning of the Qur'an, but I wonder how many of them were just as angry over this.

 

The killings of those UN staff is reprehensible, and while I'm not trying to defend those responsible, it's not surprising at all.

 

Probably about as many americans were angry over this and similar incidents in the past. So it continues in a vicious circle doesn't it?

 

 

 

 

But this is where the clashes of cultures come, you've missed the entire point of what I was trying to point out. I would agree that killing a baby is entirely secondary to a book. But I was trying to convey is just how shocking an act this was to a Muslim - I speak as someone who works in the Middle East. We are agreed that it's wrong for them to riot and kill over this, and WE think there is a difference between a book and a person. But devout Muslims will have been shocked, offended and extremely angered by the act...

 

 

 

Different cultures, but as I've asked one of my Muslim friends why has God given the West all the Nuclear weapons? If roles were reversed would Muslim nations be as tolerant as the west is with them? Answer is plainly no, we could send the entire Middle East back to the stone age, but of course we never would...

 

BIG difference in culture, yes I know and I agree. I'm not missing the point your making, as a matter of fact, we can leave out the shock of burning babys as the example you made, and just go with burning our flag versus their Qur’ān. To clarify, the emotion behind these acts is just as equal for us concerning the burning of our flag, which is angry and resentful just like the extremist Muslims.

 

I'm sure there are many Americans who were just as shocked and angry to see their country's flag go up in flames, as many times as extremist Muslims have commited the act. Like I mentioned before, the American flag is a sacred object to a lot of U.S. Citizens and for most of us it represents a lot things. I'll bet you most Americans were (and probably still are) angry and resentful of extremist Muslims committing such an act to what we believe in. Yet when someone burns the U.S. flag, we don't go killing them for it, we don't kill peaceful Musilims or any kind of Musilim here on our soil, just because were so pissed off and shocked at the extremist burning our flag. Of course there are always a few U.S. citizens who make threats like the extremist Muslims, but you never hear any Americans carry out that threat just because of that. So far, only the extremist Muslims have carried out their threats of death.

 

This is not apples and oranges J7, same issue, they burn something sacred to us, Terry Jones burns something sacred to them (although I believe he knows better than to do crap like that and somebody should smack him). The only difference is, they kill as many of us as they can because of it. Deep down in the pit of their Musilim souls, they know better.

[Astor]

Probably about as many americans were angry over this and similar incidents in the past. So it continues in a vicious circle doesn't it?

 

I don't understand what that has to do with Afghanistan. I offered the 'Kill Team' debacle as a possible, non-religious, catalyst for the riots going on there.

[jonathan7]

God gave the west all the Nuclear Weapons?

 

Why is it that a quick sarcastic quip I made at a radical Muslim gets twisted into a "serious" point quickly? The general point was that (with the exception of Pakistan) no Muslim nations (especially those with extremists in charge) have weapons... That was the only point, I wasn't actually claiming God gave anyone weapons as I don't think God favours any nation over another. Perhaps I should be even ****ing more neutral and say if there is a said deity he doesn't favour one nation over. For ****s sake....

 

I think I may give up ever posting in Kavars given the amount of times anything you say either gets twisted or entirely mis-interpreted.

 

However, violating "free speech rights" (if you ban burning a Koran....how about the flag, bras, Bible, etc...) in civilian society to mollify people who hate your guts in most cases anyway, seems counterproductive.

 

Just to point out Tot and Purifier, as far as I was aware burning the US flag is illegal in the US, isn't that a violation of Freedom of Speech? Of course I think flag burning is pathetic, but to be honest I'm not fussed if someone burns the UK flag, but perhaps thats just me.

 

In any case you Terry Jones it seems to me, did something which directly triggered events which cost numerous people their lives. I'll stick with my original assessment of this as "not sure I see the difference between this, and say starving a big dog, winding it up and then releasing it on the general public. Not that I think he will, but I really don't see the difference between these two scenarios."

[mimartin]

Sorry Totenkopf, I wasn't clear. I understood you were not blaming all. I was just stating my position.

 

If someone kills one one person, that's a problem.....if they kill 100s, that's a bigger problem.

I still cannot agree with you. Drunk driving is a major problem. However, the drunk driver that murdered someone I cared about around 23 years ago is an even bigger problem, at least to me.

 

So if it is someone you love or care about then even one preventable death is major.

[Primogen]

Don't get upset when I point out that you said something that's blatantly incorrect. I didn't misinterpret anything, you said 'God gave the west all the Nuclear Weapons' when it's pretty much completely untrue.

 

And no, flag burning is not illegal. The Supreme Court made a ruling on it. It disgusts me, much like when people burn the Bible, but it's still legal.

 

And it's not so much a starving dog as a raving psychotic dog that's looking for an excuse to cut some more westerner heads off. Terry Jones has nothing to do with what happened except he's a convenient scapegoat. Radical Islam doesn't need a reason or excuse to kill westerners. Remember that time they commandeered a bunch of airliners and flew them into buildings? What prompted that? Ooh! Maybe we should find some other things our enemies do and blame American citizens exercising their rights guaranteed to them by the constitution for it.

[Liverandbacon]

Ok guys, quick couple of questions for you all..

 

Ok, sure.

 

How many of you have been to the Middle East?

 

I have. The first time was a trip I took during university in 2000, and ever since then, I've been going to various countries in the region for long periods of time. I was in the region not long ago, and still would be if I hadn't been injured and required surgery. It's quite likely that when I finish physical therapy and regain required fitness, I'll be heading right back. I'm certainly not ignorant regarding that part of the world.

 

How many of you know Muslims?

 

I know a bunch, of all types. I have a number of good Muslim friends from my time in university. Some I met studying there, others on the trip in 2000. Around 9/11, despite not knowing if my dad, who worked near the WTC, was alive or dead (I couldn't easily contact my family from my uni in England), I remained friends with them (and pretty much told them that I didn't see their religion as any better or worse than any other, but I would very much like to gut all of their fanatics). I've also worked with Muslim allies in the Middle East, many of whom are great guys that want to do the right thing for their country's people, and probably hate jihadists even more than I do. And finally, I've met the worst kind Muslim, but those that are captured, not killed, aren't really there for a debate on religion. So I'm also not ignorant about the different flavors of Muslim, and how they think.

 

There is a claim in this thread that the rioters would have killed for another reason even if the Qur’ān hadn't been burned, but while partially true I think this is a gross simplification and that burning the Qur’ān will have turned Muslims previously against killing Westerners for it. Put it another way do you have any idea how provocative burning a Qur’ān is to the Muslim psyche?

 

Or to frame it as to how provocative this was to Muslims, it would be the similar to the Western mind set if a Muslim took a white baby and burned it alive... That's how shocking that is to a Muslim. (I'm not saying this is right, before I have rants about why that is wrong, we are agreed, but I'm trying to convey just how shocking an act this was).

 

I disagree with this. The only Muslims not already killing Westerners who this would 'provoke' into doing so are those who maybe weren't for it, but definitely weren't against it before. The only Muslims who would start killing Westerners were already on the fence about it, meaning they were already fanatical enough to consider it, and therefore would more often than not start eventually anyway. Any Muslim who kills Westerners, and claims that they were against killing Westerners (thought it was wrong, wouldn't consider doing it) before a Qur'an burning, is telling a bald-faced lie.

 

The Muslims I've met who were actually against killing random Westerners (some of them even hate Westerners, but think murdering them would be wrong), would beat the crap out of Terry Jones if they met him, but don't think of it as a legitimate reason to start killing people whose only similarity to the pastor is the fact that they come from a developed country (not just Americans, and even that would be idiocy). I assume you must be basing this on the Muslims you know, and if you know Muslims, who claim to be 'against' (again, different from ambivalent) killing Westerners, but could be moved to kill them by a Qur'an burning, you're hanging out with the wrong type of Muslim.

 

Comparing it to burning a baby alive is eliminating a substantial number of more sensible Muslims who see taking the life of a child as more serious than burning a book. I'm really starting to worry about the type of people you're working with. Anyway, even if it were a valid comparison, it doesn't really hurt my argument. Plenty of babies have been killed by Muslim extremists. Since I can't be bothered to go and find every record of babies being killed by a Muslim (not always fanatics, since some murders are obviously non-religiously motivated), I'll give the most blindingly obvious example. Multiple babies (and older children and adults) were killed by Islamic terrorists on 9/11. Unlike the Qur'an burning, of course, 9/11 was planned and helped along by a very large number of people (instead of 1), thousands of people were killed (instead of what seems to be 1 Qur'an only being burnt, certainly not many), and there was easily available footage of countless Muslims celebrating (instead of footage of Americans condemning the action). Despite these differences, which would indicate that 9/11 would get an even worse response (even if you consider a baby to us on par with a Qur'an to a Muslim), the vast majority of Americans were not in favor of killing every single Muslim. Most of the people who did want violence (and there were plenty who didn't), wanted to find and kill only those responsible, and those who wished to help them. This would be akin to Terry Jones burning masses of Qur'ans, and people only wanting to kill him, and any other Westerners who burnt the Qur'an.

 

I knew that it was quite likely (my dad was very lucky that day) that the pieces of **** who'd hit the WTC had killed my own dad, yet I only wanted to kill those responsible, not all Muslims. I like to live under the assumption that people with a different (read: any) religion aren't my inferiors, but if they were really incapable of understanding who should be held accountable for a crime (let alone the degree of the crime), they would be unquestionably inferior. Luckily, my experience with Muslims has shown me that this is not the case. Which again brings me to the fact that I really worry about the Muslims you've been dealing with.

 

Also, the fact that Muslims rioting, killing, etc., burnt far more Qur'ans than Jones ever did demonstrates quite clearly that they really aren't rioting or killing because they give two ****s about the Qur'an. They're doing it because they hate Westerners.

[jonathan7]

@Primogen, I have nothing further to say to you, I really can't be bothered with your type and furthermore don't respond to my posts I'm not interested in your thoughts on any subject.

 

I know a bunch, of all types. I have a number of good Muslim friends from my time in university. Some I met studying there, others on the trip in 2000. Around 9/11, despite not knowing if my dad, who worked near the WTC, was alive or dead (I couldn't easily contact my family from my uni in England), I remained friends with them (and pretty much told them that I didn't see their religion as any better or worse than any other, but I would very much like to gut all of their fanatics). I've also worked with Muslim allies in the Middle East, many of whom are great guys that want to do the right thing for their country's people, and probably hate jihadists even more than I do. And finally, I've met the worst kind Muslim, but those that are captured, not killed, aren't really there for a debate on religion. So I'm also not ignorant about the different flavors of Muslim, and how they think.

 

And interesting post Just to clarify L&B, I have a range of Muslim friends too; ranging from radicals (think I'd call them more acquaintances) to good friends who are liberal Muslims.

 

I'll also concede the whole baby burning thing was not a good example, I was going for something extremely emotive (and being British flag burning isn't that too me) but it was clearly a bad example.

 

I disagree with this. The only Muslims not already killing Westerners who this would 'provoke' into doing so are those who maybe weren't for it, but definitely weren't against it before. The only Muslims who would start killing Westerners were already on the fence about it, meaning they were already fanatical enough to consider it, and therefore would more often than not start eventually anyway. Any Muslim who kills Westerners, and claims that they were against killing Westerners (thought it was wrong, wouldn't consider doing it) before a Qur'an burning, is telling a bald-faced lie.

 

See I'd disagree right back at you and here is the rational. People don't generally start out as fanatics... Agreed? In the UK there has been a concerning trend of well educated (to University level) Muslims getting sucked into extremism. How does this happen? Obviously they fall in with wrong people, but other things surely happen too... So what does Qur’ān burning do when thrown in? It seems to me it can only do one thing, which is to push people further down the road to extremism, obviously it is a journey but Terry Jones will be directly responsible for helping Muslims who become radicalised on that journey.

 

The Muslims I've met who were actually against killing random Westerners (some of them even hate Westerners, but think murdering them would be wrong), would beat the crap out of Terry Jones if they met him, but don't think of it as a legitimate reason to start killing people whose only similarity to the pastor is the fact that they come from a developed country (not just Americans, and even that would be idiocy).

 

Most of my Muslim friends would fall into the above category, though most don't hate Westerners.

 

If you know Muslims, wherever it is in the Middle East you're working, who claim to be 'against' (again, different from ambivalent) killing Westerners, but could be moved to kill them by a Qur'an burning, you're hanging out with the wrong type of Muslim.

 

Aid work doesn't involve picking and choosing

 

Comparing it to burning a baby alive is eliminating a substantial number of more sensible Muslims who see taking the life of a child as more serious than burning a book.

 

This was more me trying to pick a very emotive subject which would cause a large emotive response, rather than it being trying to pick a necessarily like for like example. Certainly with my Muslim friends involved in Philosophy they would certainly agree with the point you have just made, although the vast majority of those that react in such a way do not come from very educated backgrounds....

 

I knew that it was quite likely (my dad was very lucky that day) that the pieces of **** who'd hit the WTC had killed my own dad, yet I only wanted to kill those responsible, not all Muslims. I like to live under the assumption that people with a different (read: any) religion aren't my inferiors, but if they were really incapable of understanding who should be held accountable for a crime (let alone the degree of the crime), they would be unquestionably inferior. Luckily, my experience with Muslims has shown me that this is not the case. Which again brings me to the fact that I really worry about the Muslims you've been dealing with.

 

I think part of your worrying is your assuming the majority of my friends are like that when they are not. But the concern is over what causes radicalism, and obviously there are multiple factors this one does not help.

 

Also, the fact that Muslims rioting, killing, etc., burnt far more Qur'ans than Jones ever did demonstrates quite clearly that they really aren't rioting or killing because they give two ****s about the Qur'an. They're doing it because they hate Westerners.

 

That's an interesting point, although it would not of been a deliberate act of burning...

[Primogen]

Too bad, don't really care if you're not interested in my thoughts. I think your belief that the West - or anyone besides the perpetrators - can be blamed for the actions of radical psychotic Muslims is repugnant.

 

Anyone who can be enticed into killing innocent people to make a point has been morally bankrupt for some time. The fact that you even try to blame Terry Jones for the actions of these guys is frankly disgusting. Their actions don't even make sense! Terry Jones burns a Qur'an, therefore a bunch of other westerners deserve to die? That makes the same amount of sense as the people who say that we should destroy the entire Middle-East as revenge over 9/11.

[Totenkopf]

Sorry Totenkopf, I wasn't clear. I understood you were not blaming all. I was just stating my position.

 

I still cannot agree with you. Drunk driving is a major problem. However, the drunk driver that murdered someone I cared about around 23 years ago is an even bigger problem, at least to me.

 

So if it is someone you love or care about then even one preventable death is major.

 

I take your meaning, but am talking about at the "big picture" level. Personal loss always hurts (even devestates) at the individual level, but for society as a whole it is still a singular event......no matter how privately painful.

 

@J7--I'd agree it's incredibly stupid, but even offensive pos's like the Nazi party and KKK types are allowed to express themselves in the US. I guess you could say that Shep's advice to Garrus in ME sums it up.....you can't control what others will do, just how you react. It seems to me that the radicals are pre-provoked and need little if any incentive to act. All anyone can do is try to be vigiliant and stop them.

[mimartin]

I take your meaning, but am talking about at the "big picture" level. Personal loss always hurts (even devestates) at the individual level, but for society as a whole it is still a singular event......no matter how privately painful.

 

My point is any loss of life is going to be personal for someone. I'm not meaning to sound selfish, because that is the complete opposite of what I’m trying to convey. Every victim is someone’s son, daughter, mother, father, sister, brother, aunt, uncle, cousin, wife, husband, girlfriend, boyfriend…. or friend…. so every loss is going to be extremely personal for that person and is always going to be the major problem to them.

 

I just find it silly to tell someone there loss is less horrific than another person’s loss because there are less people involved.

 

I'm not saying you are wrong, just my personal view.

 

I think your belief that the West - or anyone besides the perpetrators - can be blamed for the actions of radical psychotic Muslims is repugnant.

I strongly believe in a person is responsible for their own actions. However, have you ever wondered why radical Muslims hate the west so much? Study a little history of U.S. involvement in the region. Tell me, if history was reversed and they did the same things on our soil to our people, how would we feel about them? While I don’t believe that it reason enough to kill another human, I do not think the west or the United States is by any means innocent.

[Darth Avlectus]

Ok I really could not let this one by.

 

Now, I'm affraid I find it logically incoherent that burning a book is "Freedom of Speech" - burning a book is the very antithesis of freedom of speech. This maybe a difference between how one defines "Freedom of Speech". It would seem to me Freedom of Speech is about being "constructive" that is to say an individual has the freedom to speak his mind, however an individual does not have the right to act out his mind.

 

Just clarifying:

The freedom of speech is, in all its capacity, to allow* to a degree even that which may seem destructive to it. IIRC re: Holocaust denier "nut" in the catholic church, you said something to me on the order of, if the man is such a nut he should at least be allowed enough freedom to speak so that way it is out in the open for all to see. Much like the saying "give them enough rope to hang themselves with".

 

*All this to a point, obviously as you say, that other people are only disturbed and insulted by such sentiments and expression, not harmed, smeared, or slandered in any real way.

 

Burning a book is just a destructive act... Though out of interest for all those who have argued for the right to burn books, if an Individual argued that paedophilia is ok and should be allowed, what you say?

I disagree with your moral equivalence of child rape to book burning.

Both are an act, yes, but I think you have equivocated them falsely.

 

To burn a book is destructive, ignorant, and in this case is obviously intended to be antagonistic; I am taking nothing away from that trauma which devout moslems would feel at such an act.

 

Child rape, on the other hand, is much much much more terrible than trauma felt than insult by symbolic destruction/defacing/desecration/etc. Though I see your point that its generated outrage is similar in some ways, it far, far exceeds that in many more ways. It is actually physically harming someone in a VERRRY real way on top of the insult generated by the act causing traumas psychologically, spiritually, mentally and emotionally. For the victim (and quite possibly and likely those close to the victim) it is a lifelong wound being opened up. A wound that NEVER EVER completely heals--people can completely heal from the scars of witnessing the burning of a holy book.

 

Now I am not arguing it is necessarily right to burn a book (though this is my first post in this thread). It is ignorant and distasteful to do. However, there are differing degrees of what is inappropriate. Burning a book is destructive and antagonistic; sexually assaulting a child on the other hand is a disgusting reprehensible faux pas that is several orders of magnitude beyond book burning.

 

Burning a book is an action, freedom of speech is the ability to say whatever an individual thinks, so if an Individual wanted to slate any religion, its Holy book I would fully support that right. I will however NEVER ever support the burning of any book, even if I vehemently disagree with the contents of that book. I actually think that the burning of books goes completely against Freedom of Speech... But there we go.

 

I tolerate such ignorance because it makes an example out of the person doing it. Though it is really bad and psychologically damaging it is little next to what one suffers from being sexually abused.

 

Sorry if this rant seems a little heated but I really can't believe you, of all people, equivocated those two things.

[Primogen]

I'm not saying the West is God's land, populated with those with the blood of angels and kings, the favored people of Jesus Christ, yadda yadda yadda. I don't believe that, I had my jingoistic America Is Awesome phase when I was sixteen. I know a little bit (And I do mean a -little- bit) about what went on in the Middle-East, like our funding of the Mujahideen during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan during the Cold War and our collection of excesses like Abu Ghraib more recently.

 

I can understand why a lot of people over there despise the West. But there's a pretty big difference between trying to right a wrong and just committing mass murder.

 

My point being that there are people in the West who have things to answer for, for what they did to the people of places like Afghanistan. But I don't think anyone but those who directly were involved can be blamed for an action like 9/11, any more so than anyone but the perpetrators can be blamed for the cruelties at Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere.

[mimartin]

I can understand why a lot of people over there despise the West. But there's a pretty big difference between trying to right a wrong and just committing mass murder.

Not that big of a difference when we have supported dictators that mass murder their own people.

 

“The enemy of my enemy is my friend” I hope we have learned that sometimes the enemy of my enemy is also my enemy.

[Tommycat]

I think I may give up ever posting in Kavars given the amount of times anything you say either gets twisted or entirely mis-interpreted.

 

Hi, and welcome to the internet. You must be new here

 

I think the reality of this thread is simply that we all feel that burning the book was wrong. I dislike the burning of books in general. What we find more reprehensible is the response. Killing a person goes far and beyond reasonable. A book can be replaced. A life cannot. Nobody here is saying that they shouldn't be angry. Of course they should. But I know I would respect them more if they didn't actually end up proving the anti-muslim groups right. in that the religion is a bunch of murderers(I know it's not true, but the perception that they are inherently a violent religion isn't helped by people murdering over the book)

[Working Class Hero]

No, Their god says killing is evil, and they feel that killing a killer is defending the future babies from that killing.

I suppose you're correct. I apologize for comparing a book to a fetus, but my point that both religions go ape**** over perceived offenses is still valid, though Muslims take it to an entirely new level.

 

I think the reality of this thread is simply that we all feel that burning the book was wrong.

I agree, we don't need any more air pollution. If I were him, I would have taken my dog for a walk and used its pages to pick up her ****.

[Totenkopf]

Or, with the inevitable rise in heating costs, fuel your heater w/Quran's and keep your mouth shut about it (ie treat it like Vegas....whatever happens in your heater/fireplace stays there).

[Liverandbacon]

“The enemy of my enemy is my friend” I hope we have learned that sometimes the enemy of my enemy is also my enemy.

 

The first quote is one that has always bothered me. It's another overused, demonstrably untrue saying, like the similarly trite "Violence never solves anything."

 

Believing that two countries can ever be real 'friends' is absurd, since real friendship requires solid trust, and if a nation trusts another completely, it's already been annexed.

 

I prefer "The enemy of my enemy is a problem for later, to be watched carefully and used in the present."

 

Which is part of why I think we need to deal with the Libyan rebels cautiously, especially now that Al Qaeda has joined in. But I'm getting off-topic.

 

I think the reality of this thread is simply that we all feel that burning the book was wrong. ... What we find more reprehensible is the response.

 

Welcome to Kavar's: Even when we agree, we do it by disagreeing.

[purifier]

I don't understand what that has to do with Afghanistan. I offered the 'Kill Team' debacle as a possible, non-religious, catalyst for the riots going on there.

 

 

Okay, I thought you were looking at the violent actions of the "Kill Team" specifically. I was just giving you one of the possible reasons (the link to the article I posted as a example)they felt the need to commit those acts as some sort of revenge. And that's why I said: "So it continues in a vicious circle doesn't it?"

 

Anyway Astor, my bad, sorry for the confusion.

 

 

 

 

@J7--I'd agree it's incredibly stupid, but even offensive pos's like the Nazi party and KKK types are allowed to express themselves in the US. I guess you could say that Shep's advice to Garrus in ME sums it up.....you can't control what others will do, just how you react. It seems to me that the radicals are pre-provoked and need little if any incentive to act. All anyone can do is try to be vigiliant and stop them.

 

I think the reality of this thread is simply that we all feel that burning the book was wrong. I dislike the burning of books in general. What we find more reprehensible is the response. Killing a person goes far and beyond reasonable. A book can be replaced. A life cannot. Nobody here is saying that they shouldn't be angry. Of course they should. But I know I would respect them more if they didn't actually end up proving the anti-muslim groups right. in that the religion is a bunch of murderers(I know it's not true, but the perception that they are inherently a violent religion isn't helped by people murdering over the book)

 

@J7 Don't know what else say except what Tot and Tommycat said above pretty much sums up my belief on the matter as well. The extremist Muslims could of just turned around and burned some bibles as a simple retaliation, since they were shocked by Terry (I'm a idiot) Jones actions, but they didn't did they? They had to take it to the extreme and kill people for their own revengeful satisfaction. I don't like it when someone burns books either, but killing people over the burning of a book is beyond insanity and ignorance.

[Mandalorian Knight]

Terry (I'm a idiot) Jones

 

This made my day.