MsFicwriter Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 ...her duel against the Exile, what might she have done next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctrl Alt Del Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 She would have carried on killing the Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Either that, or she'd die as a result of her bond with the Exile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexrd Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 killing the Force. And people ask why I hate TSL... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Meh, just figure that her plan of being able to do it was only a theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexrd Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Meh, just figure that her plan of being able to do it was only a theory. It's still a big part/plot of the game thanks to Avellone's anti-religious stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I'd like to hear more detailed thoughts of yours on this element of the plot (since you seem to have opinions on its significance both outside of the story and within). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MsFicwriter Posted October 1, 2011 Author Share Posted October 1, 2011 My .02: If "the Force" in Star Wars is akin to a godlike entity, and the tenets of the Jedi and Sith are analogous to religion, then Kreia trying to "kill the Force" is like her trying to "kill God". If she would have succeeded, this would therefore have proven that the teachings on both sides of the Jedi/Sith conflict were wrong. However, what Kreia discovers at the end of TSL is that "killing the Force/God" is futile and impossible. The Exile physically lived without the Force, being cut off from it, but s/he was also in severe emotional and metaphysical/spiritual pain. Chodo Habat noticed this, along with many other characters. As for Kreia? I'm wondering how she re-learned the Force, and heard it "sing" within her after she was stripped of her power by Sion and Nihilus. If she hated the Force that much, then why would she choose to use it again? To "learn how to kill it", as she said on Malachor V? Maybe, and perhaps she really believed this, but ultimately she admits that even this was a lame excuse to hide her dependence on the Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rtas Vadum Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 As for Kreia? I'm wondering how she re-learned the Force, and heard it "sing" within her after she was stripped of her power by Sion and Nihilus. She does it in the same way that Revan and the Exile do - even if they had other forms of help that Kreia didn't. The reason she is technically "weak" at the beginning of the game. Maybe she does know more than the player, but the same could be said about Bastilia/Juhani/Jolee in the first game. I'd imagine that, even if being stripped of her power meant that she was weaker, it doesn't mean that she would've forgotten what she knew so easily. If she hated the Force that much, then why would she choose to use it again? To "learn how to kill it", as she said on Malachor V? Maybe, and perhaps she really believed this, but ultimately she admits that even this was a lame excuse to hide her dependence on the Force. It's the same as hating guns, yet a situation presents itself where using the gun is the only way survival can be assured - no matter if it is you that wants to, or you want to save someone else. Or, it could be that that, whatever it is you hate, that very thing could be integral to your goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathScepter Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 this is very interesting thread. also I do think she could kill the force due to Malachor 5 unique status within the galaxy. By killing a wound within a wound in the force might have an interesting effect. Also non force senstives probaly not be effect by the loss of the force if it was going to happen. Mainly due to their low connection to the force. conversly the stronger connection to the force, more painful to have the force to be stripped from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MsFicwriter Posted October 1, 2011 Author Share Posted October 1, 2011 Do you think Traya would have killed--or recruited--the remnants of the followers of Sion and Nihilus? What do you think she would have done about the Republic--let it stand and not interfere with its operations, "laissez-faire" style, or would she have undermined it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Also non force senstives probaly not be effect by the loss of the force if it was going to happen. Mainly due to their low connection to the force.. Considering how closely the Force is tied to all life, it's more likely that its removal from existence would kill virtually all life in the universe. Keep also in mind that individuals who have been "cut off from" the Force are not literally so, rather blocked from using it. Now that I think of it, what the hell is the Exile, anyway, and what is the significance of it? She is said to "live without the Force", yet can still use it ("You can feel the Force, but you cannot feel yourself"). The ordeal at Malachor deafened her to the Force, yet she regains power later in much the same way as others who lost their Force powers (Revan, Kyle Katarn, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexrd Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I'd like to hear more detailed thoughts of yours on this element of the plot (since you seem to have opinions on its significance both outside of the story and within). It's just the ridiculousness of the overall concept. I mean, killing the Force? Really? Being the Force an established existing and omnipresent entity, who would think of killing it, and how? It just doesn't work in Star Wars, and the reason behind Avellone's idea only make me hate it even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Kreia's motives for killing the Force are pretty well-established in the game. First, she's butthurt over being rejected by both the Jedi and Sith Orders - and no doubt her anger at this is amplified by how she has her own philosophies and teachings are are relatively unique, especially to the Jedi. Second, she somehow has it in her head that the Force controls everyone's fate in some sort of game of balance - and being a control freak, she can't stand that possibility. Sure, from an in-universe perspective, killing the Force is an incredibly bad idea (assuming it would work) and Kreia has no actual evidence to support her second motive, but I figure that's kind of the point - she's evil. She's the main villain, remember? I know that Avellone has rather shamelessly stated that she's his primary mouthpiece for his own problems with the Star Wars universe, but that changes jack in the context of the story itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabretooth Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Second, she somehow has it in her head that the Force controls everyone's fate in some sort of game of balance - and being a control freak, she can't stand that possibility. The Force is an entity that controls and regulates itself and does this 'game of balance'. That makes it analogous to the concept of Fate, which is often linked with God. In a sense, where people believe that the Force is an element like air or earth, Kreia believes the Force is a self-righting, god-like entity playing both the Jedi and the Sith for fools. She seeks to correct this by killing this god and bringing true Free Will into the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathScepter Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Jedi Exile and Nihilus are supposed to be black holes of the force. And supposedly that both of them uses force bonds to "feel" the force without being in the force. Kotor 2 is a good game but just confusing at times for various reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctrl Alt Del Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 It's just the ridiculousness of the overall concept. I mean, killing the Force? Really? Being the Force an established existing and omnipresent entity, who would think of killing it, and how? It just doesn't work in Star Wars, and the reason behind Avellone's idea only make me hate it even more.At least it's original - for Star Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2-X2 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 ... Kotor 2 is a good game but just confusing at times for various reasons. You forgot daunting in its unfinishedness and sometimes disgusting in its characters... well, I'm talking about Kreia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathScepter Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Kreia is awesome and a good villian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blix Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I would really have liked to have seen just how Kreia/Traya would have "killed" the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathScepter Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Echos in the force would be overbearing to the point that the people would either die or become numb to the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Precisely. So all Traya'd have to do is sit around and make sure no one screws up what's going on with Malachor. Unfortunately this is only explained during one of the planet's loading screen facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MsFicwriter Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 This "loading screen fact" is only revealed once you're ON Malachor, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Now that I think of it, what the hell is the Exile, anyway, and what is the significance of it? She is said to "live without the Force", yet can still use it ("You can feel the Force, but you cannot feel yourself"). The ordeal at Malachor deafened her to the Force, yet she regains power later in much the same way as others who lost their Force powers (Revan, Kyle Katarn, etc). The in-game explanation is that the Exile syphon's the force from your companions and is additionally some sort of "Force Black Hole". Although I supose I'd look at it differently that the Exile underwent a healing being around people again, having been away for so long; the relationships and force bonds, caused the Exile to feel the force again; but of course that's only my thoughts on *my Exile*. "When you returned to us, we saw what had happened. You carry all those deaths at Malachor within you, and it has left a hole, a hunger that cannot be filled." "You are a cipher, forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them. [...] You are a breach that must be closed. You transmit your pain, your suffering through the Force. Within you we see something worse than the teachings of the Sith. What you carry may mean the death of the Force… and the death of the Jedi." "I believed you are the key to this whole war. When you stood before us in the Council chamber on Coruscant, we felt something from you, we'd never felt before—it was as if the Force had died within you, leaving you hollow. We had suspicions as to why this was, but nothing definite. But rather than try to understand, we sent you away. I think because at some level, there was fear. We live our whole lives in touch with the Force, in touch with life all around us, and you had a gift in that regard. You formed bonds so easily, and they flowed deep between you and others. To see such emptiness in the Force standing before you... it is not an easy thing to face." "Whatever is attacking us, it is leaving something in its wake, something we haven't felt since you stood before us in judgement. The deaths of the Jedi, the destruction of Katarr, all of these things are leaving behind echoes—like the one we felt from you in the council chamber. It was clear to us—to me, that we had to find you. But we couldn't call you back from exile, because we didn't know where you'd gone. Plus, there was a chance we might put you in danger, and that we couldn't allow. If you couldn't feel the Force, then it would just make you a target. I don't know how you got back, but I'm glad you're here." What was it Yoda said about fear? These "Jedi Masters" seem very fearful to me. A stupid fear as it would turn out, as it was not the Exile who would do this but Nihilus; and they were gonna stop the only Jedi who could stop him, save the galaxy and the Jedi... YAY for being stupid! Anyway; It's just the ridiculousness of the overall concept. I mean, killing the Force? Really? Being the Force an established existing and omnipresent entity, who would think of killing it, and how? It just doesn't work in Star Wars, and the reason behind Avellone's idea only make me hate it even more. I'd disagree, I think Kreia is much like Ahab from Moby Dick; she blames the force for her own failings. She pushes her and others motivations onto the Force which makes the Force seem malevolent to her. Also are alot of our motivations logical? Or are good villains motivations logical or reasonable? I'd argue the scariest villains are the ones who seemingly have no logic in what they are doing (think the Joker in the Dark Kinght as an example.. He just wants to watch the world burn, is that any more different to Kreia?). Can you kill God? Can you kill the Force... They would seem to be the same question to me. Anyways as I'm lazy I'll use wikipedia to summerize Ahab from Moby Dick; The book portrays destructive obsession and monomania, as well as the assumption of anthropomorphism; projecting human instincts, characteristics and motivations onto animals. Moby-Dick is ruthless in attacking the sailors who attempt to hunt and kill him, but it is Ahab who invests Moby-Dick's natural instincts with malign and evil intent. In fact it is not the whale, but the crippled Ahab who alone possesses this characteristic. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moby-Dick So Kreia projects human (or sentient in SW's case) instincts, characteristics and motivations onto the Force. But if the Force is "God" such thinking is flawed on many levels, not least that the Force is concious to a level entirely different to sentient beings. It also to me ignores the fact that if the force is morally nuetural it's an individuals choice (fault) if they cause death and destruction with that power. Does the Force really "balance things"? In a sense that would seem to sum up Kriea, she wants revenge, revenge on the Jedi, revenge on the Sith and ultimately revenge on the universe and the Force for her being stripped of power. For me of course Mical, probably summed up the Exile best; And where they look at you and see the death of the Force, I look at you and see the hope for all life. Did Traya really expect to win? My 2 cents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rtas Vadum Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 It's still a big part/plot of the game thanks to Avellone's anti-religious stance. Although that might have something to do with it, it's likely more than just that. I believe he did say that he went over much of the SW material at that point, and obviously found himself frustrated. Likely because out of everything, it really isn't properly explained, to any degree, just what the 'force' is. With Kreia's mindset, she was betrayed by the Jedi, and the Sith, both of them users of the force, who mostly use it blindly, taking little care for what it really is. Aside from revenge, what if another motivation, is her fear of what the force is? The in-game explanation is that the Exile syphon's the force from your companions and is additionally some sort of "Force Black Hole". Although I supose I'd look at it differently that the Exile underwent a healing being around people again, having been away for so long; the relationships and force bonds, caused the Exile to feel the force again; but of course that's only my thoughts on *my Exile*. The black hole idea really doesn't fit, although it may be close. I say that, mostly because it suggests the exile forcibly draws energy from everyone, which she does, but not like Nihilus. Where he draws energy from any source, the Exile draws only a limited amount- likely not enough to actually drain someone of life, or their force power(the actual powers themselves, notwithstanding). When the life around the Exile is plentiful, it is easy to draw the needed energy. Why could Kreia almost kill the Exile in the Enclave? Well, it mirrors Malachor, with the lingering feeling of dead Jedi, and even the planet itself is mostly desolate(not to mention the bond between the two, and a blade in the stomach). The reason the same doesn't happen on Malachor V during the endgame, in a similar scenario? Kreia's comment that you are not truly a Jedi or a Sith. Malachor is a world plentiful in the force, and the Exile uses that, no matter which side he or she lays claim to. Did Traya really expect to win? Perhaps she did want to win, but only at first. At that point, it is only about killing what she hates, fears, etc. Along with using the Exile to do it. However, after the Jedi Enclave, it is easy to see that her goal changes - even if she is still using the Exile just the same. She takes out the Jedi Master's herself(if the Exile didn't do so already), and basically paints a target on Atris, along with the three Sith lords, herself in included. At this point, it was more about getting rid of the idealism that had betrayed her - that of the Jedi, and the Sith. At least, any of significance that remained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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