How to argue about Star Wars movies the right way!

[Lynk Former]

@ Al_Ciao: I was thinking along the lines that Anakin had no choice but to help Mace and wind up helping to kill him. As a scapegoat the senate chooses to blame Anakin, even though Palpatine is revealed to be a Sith and he has to take the fall for it in order to protect the Jedi.

 

He'd definitely be expelled because of his marriage, and I think he'd most likely live out his days (at least for a short time before the another civil war broke out amongst the Republic and the likes of Tarkin and other Palpatine hardliners that are left try to take power.

 

This isn't a rosy alternative I'm thinking of, just one in which the downfall of the Republic takes a different, and delayed shape and the Jedi become corrupted.

 

 

@ machievelli: I remember that about Enterprise. I think their reasoning was that no one knew that it was a Romulan ship so it was okay to show it. Not very good reasoning, but it seemed to be enough for the writers to have their cool moment put into that episode.

[machievelli]

Lynk, I would agree if they hadn't told me I was outside of canon when they rejected my work. After them throwing me aside for that reason it's like the first Christians deciding that Jesus wasn't that important, let's follow this guy Paul whose teaching instead when Gene Roddenberry died...

[Sith Holocron]

Oh no . . . I think I'm about to do something I thought I'd never do - defend a part of the prequel trilogy. This coming from a person that prides himself for never buying any of the prequel trilogy on DVD. (I got them on gifts but still . . . I didn't buy them!)

The single point I'll defend against:

In ANH you have at least several hours from Tatooine to Alderaan, long enough for Kenobi to at least start training Luke. Yet in ROTS you have Anakin injured on Mustafar, have the Emperor know it, and get there before Anakin is cooked to death. Since you have to go from the location, to a ship, fly it out of the atmosphere, hyper out, hyper in, land, then locate him, you're talking hours, not the few minutes it was on screen. The same is true in TESB where you have the Millenium Falcon in the Hoth system, but without hyperdrive, making it to the Bespin system. As I commented about a week ago, that is like taking off in an F6F Hellcat in the South China Sea, and flying it to San Francisco without refueling.

 

Without using screenshots, I'm pretty sure we can all remember the Emperor mentioning how he has "foreseen" things in the Original Trilogy. Who's to say that the Palpatine didn't foresee the duel would go badly between Obi-Wan and Vader and then take appropriate measures by leaving hours before? Let's be honest: expecting Lucas to play it out in chronological order and establishing that might have be overestimating his abilities. Why didn't get there in time before Vader got crisped? Well, as we saw in ROTJ - his foresight wasn't exactly perfect.

 

As the original poster commented, people denigrate the stories because of how old the ideas are, but there has not been a seriously brand new idea for fiction in centuries. You will notice I use the term Generic a lot, and that is because a lot of authors just 'go with the flow' of how they are usually done.

 

I always thought it was pretty well established that Lucas was a big fan of Joseph Campbell, an American mythologist and lecturer. I'll quote Wikipedia for this next part but I'm sure someone can find a video where Lucas talks about Campbell in the PBS series had of talks between Bill Moyers and Campbell. (I'd do it myself but I'm unsure how much time I have before my computer crashes again.)

 

George Lucas was the first Hollywood filmmaker to credit Campbell's influence. Lucas stated following the release of the first Star Wars film in 1977 that its story was shaped, in part, by ideas described in The Hero with a Thousand Faces and other works of Campbell's. The linkage between Star Wars and Campbell was further reinforced when later reprints of Campbell's book used the image of Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker on the cover.[38] Lucas discusses this influence at great length in the authorized biography of Joseph Campbell, A Fire in the Mind in which he said:

 

"I [Lucas] came to the conclusion after American Graffiti that what's valuable for me is to set standards, not to show people the world the way it is...around the period of this realization...it came to me that there really was no modern use of mythology...The Western was possibly the last generically American fairy tale, telling us about our values. And once the Western disappeared, nothing has ever taken its place. In literature we were going off into science fiction...so that's when I started doing more strenuous research on fairy tales, folklore, and mythology, and I started reading Joe's books. Before that I hadn't read any of Joe's books...It was very eerie because in reading The Hero with a Thousand Faces I began to realize that my first draft of Star Wars was following classic motifs...so I modified my next draft [of Star Wars] according to what I'd been learning about classical motifs and made it a little bit more consistent...I went on to read 'The Masks of God' and many other books."

 

Lucas' mining of old myths for Star Wars obviously was intentional.

 

And here's a video clip talking about this. . .

 

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[machievelli]

Oh no . . . I think I'm about to do something I thought I'd never do - defend a part of the prequel trilogy. This coming from a person that prides himself for never buying any of the prequel trilogy on DVD. (I got them on gifts but still . . . I didn't buy them!)

The single point I'll defend against:

 

 

Without using screenshots, I'm pretty sure we can all remember the Emperor mentioning how he has "foreseen" things in the Original Trilogy. Who's to say that the Palpatine didn't foresee the duel would go badly between Obi-Wan and Vader and then take appropriate measures by leaving hours before? Let's be honest: expecting Lucas to play it out in chronological order and establishing that might have be overestimating his abilities. Why didn't get there in time before Vader got crisped? Well, as we saw in ROTJ - his foresight wasn't exactly perfect.

 

I am going by visual chronology, and dialogue, because you see Palpatine talking to his subordinate telling him to ready the ship to leave immediately, yet the fight with Obi Wan had just ended with Anakin's legs being amputated.

 

If you wish to argue prescience, GL should have had Palpatine send Anakin off, then show a scene having Palpatine seeming worried, and ordering his ship readied before fighting Yoda, then have him leave directly after the fight for Mustafar. That would be prescient. Having him on Coruscant giving the order at the instant Anakin was wounded does not.

 

I can't remember the movie, but there is an old war movie where you have a group of commandos planting charges, and one of them is talking to himself, and places one in the wrong place after forgetting to set the timer. As they are pulling out under fire, the charges go off, and the project they are trying to destroy is still there. They keep retreating, and an enemy soldier following them gets shot. He does that 'spin in place gun blazing' type of move they like sometimes. One of the bullets hits the orphan charge, it blows up and now the project is destroyed.

 

 

I always thought it was pretty well established that Lucas was a big fan of Joseph Campbell, an American mythologist and lecturer. I'll quote Wikipedia for this next part but I'm sure someone can find a video where Lucas talks about Campbell in the PBS series had of talks between Bill Moyers and Campbell. (I'd do it myself but I'm unsure how much time I have before my computer crashes again.)

 

 

 

Lucas' mining of old myths for Star Wars obviously was intentional.

 

And here's a video clip talking about this. . .

 

(This BBCode requires its accompanying plugin to work properly.)

 

As for where he got his ideas, every author builds on what he reads and loves. In the afternote of the book At All Costs by David Weber, he mentions David and the Phoenix, then lists the authors that were his idols in that regard.

 

I was not denigrating George for using something recognizable, I am saying that when you create your story, you are using the foundation others created in a lot of cases, before you were even born. It was a sad shake of the head for people who look and say, 'but that's just this story again with different stars' as if every author has to use brand new material, and you have the right to penalize them every time you recognize the scene or situation.

 

The only time I have wanted to do that was when the producers of Jumanji followed it with Zathura, which was the same story just moved into space. A pity, I liked Jumanji.

 

That's what I mean by 'generic'.

 

If you read my Critic's column, I commented that the 'bad guy kills your friend and you seek revenge' is a generic idea for a story. I used Beverly Hill's Cop as an example because the choice of Eddie Murphy as Axel Foley was brilliant. They took someone not known for serious roles, cast him in one that was serious, and he made it wonderful.

 

Every scene in that movie would have played out all right with someone like Stallone Pacino or De Niro and if you go back enough have been. But with Murphy, some scenes that would have been played serious became outrageously funny against the stark background.

[Tommycat]

Not gonna argue too much on this, because lets face it, I still like the new trilogy, even if I feel it puts holes in the old trilogy. But Obiwan originally said, that he was the BEST pilot in the galaxy. There were other indications that he was older. And honestly, I wish they had instead used a mid to late teens and met him on a different planet. Still too old for the training.

 

And Obi-wan said Anakin WANTED Luke to have his father's lightsaber. Now, it can be argued that Obiwan could have said that because he didn't want to reveal that Vader was his father, but he could have said, "After Vader murdered your father I took this and kept it for you"

 

Leia

Princess Leia: Luke, what's wrong?

Luke: Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?

Princess Leia: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.

Luke: What do you remember?

Princess Leia: Just... images really. Feelings.

Luke: Tell me.

Princess Leia: She was... very beautiful. Kind, but sad. Why are you asking me this?

Luke: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.

 

She may have been a child when her mother died, but it wasn't the force that let her know those feelings. This indicated that Leia actually knew her mother more than Luke did. She says her mother died when she was very young. Probably toddler age. Sure, it's not like she says her mom took her to the Naboo Zoo, or Gungan Disneyland, but she didn't say she never met her mom.

[machievelli]

 

She may have been a child when her mother died, but it wasn't the force that let her know those feelings. This indicated that Leia actually knew her mother more than Luke did. She says her mother died when she was very young. Probably toddler age. Sure, it's not like she says her mom took her to the Naboo Zoo, or Gungan Disneyland, but she didn't say she never met her mom.

 

As someone who dealt with an orphanage when I was 12 (Not orphaned, my mother stashed us there fighting a nasty divorce with a child abusing stepfather) I know that when people adopt, they rarely tell their 'kids' that they are until much later. More likely this was Bail's wife she remembers.

 

And Gungan Disneyland? I'm picturing a bunch of humans wearing suits like the modern one with someone playing Jar Jar and Boss Nazz with that horrendous accent!

[urluckyday]

As someone who dealt with an orphanage when I was 12 (Not orphaned, my mother stashed us there fighting a nasty divorce with a child abusing stepfather) I know that when people adopt, they rarely tell their 'kids' that they are until much later. More likely this was Bail's wife she remembers.

 

That's what I thought as well...but after doing a little bit of research, it appears that Bail's wife, Breha, died on Alderaan when it was destroyed. Leia would've known who was who at that point.

[HED]

If I am remembering the scene correctly, Luke does say specifically "your real mother", which definitely seems to imply that Leia knew she was adopted.

[machievelli]

That's what I thought as well...but after doing a little bit of research, it appears that Bail's wife, Breha, died on Alderaan when it was destroyed. Leia would've known who was who at that point.

 

That is what I meant about the 'bible' mentioned above, better known as 'storyline continuity'. We have her (in ROTJ) saying she remembered her, but she died when Leia was a child, then turning around in ROTS and having her die in childbirth, which precludes having ever seen her.

 

I am on the fourth book in my 'Faerie Series' (Have been for too long as well) and I started a 'bible' of my own for it just to avoid such a problem. Seems GL never bothered, as he wrote all six.

[DuckfromPortal]

I think George made a story, a solid story and made the first three how he honestly wanted too, but i feel for the latter three he had changed so much that his vision changed making him be nit picky about the original and make a not the best and not the same universe prequel (as in the prequels in my mind were more of a retcon of a lot of the original ideas in the original)

[Tommycat]

Well there is a bit of inconsistency in the first 3 as well... For example:

Vader could sense Luke in a shuttle WAAAAAAY away from him.

He couldn't sense Luke's twin sister when he was pointing at her face saying "You are part of the Rebel Alliance, and a traitor"

 

He was the best pilot in the galaxy, but gets tripped up by a bumbling wingman.

 

How about the whole trip to Bespin. No light speed. Would have taken months to get there(at least). Of course I guess that would explain how Luke was able to get trained in the time it took them to get to Bespin.

[Shem]

Well there is a bit of inconsistency in the first 3 as well...

From what I noticed, you're looking for reasons to find flaws now, especially after I debunked your last attempt.

 

For example:

Vader could sense Luke in a shuttle WAAAAAAY away from him.

The shuttle was flying all around Vader's Star Destroyer.

 

 

He couldn't sense Luke's twin sister when he was pointing at her face saying "You are part of the Rebel Alliance, and a traitor"

What was he suppose to sense? Think about that one for a moment. As far as Vader was concerned at that moment he didn't know he had any children. So if you take that in consideration, what else is there to say? Maybe this would satisfy you:

 

Hypothetical Vader: "You're strong in the Force. You could be my child, but my wife died and assumed that my baby died as well, but being near you makes me believe that it was all a lie. But still, you are apart of the Rebel Alliance and a Traitor so I'm going take you back to the Death Star so we can sort this out."

 

 

 

 

Is that better for you?

 

 

How about the whole trip to Bespin. No light speed. Would have taken months to get there(at least). Of course I guess that would explain how Luke was able to get trained in the time it took them to get to Bespin.

Maybe you just answered your own concern. And if I recall correctly, they mention in the ESB novel that it took a long time for Han and Leia to get to Cloud City and that Luke was on Dagobah way longer than it appeared in the movie.

[Lynk Former]

Thinking about it now... the time gap between the Falcon escaping the Star Destroyers to its eventual arrival at Cloud City... it's starting to make sense why all of the characters seemed pretty over each other when they landed on Cloud City. Han and Leia were tired of seeing each other and even Chewie and Han seemed a little miffed at each other. I'm sure Threepio drove eeeeveryone nuts too lol.

 

I'm probably thinking too much into it, but even if I am, it's a funny thought just thinking about them all going stir-crazy in there on the trip to Cloud City. And then all of that sexual tension between Han and Leia... damn.

[SaberAlter]

Did someone mention King Arthur? *shifty eyes*

 

Anyway. I think the infamous Red Letter Media pretty much laid out all my arguments for me. ._.

[mimartin]

I'm sure Threepio drove eeeeveryone nuts too lol.

Nope....they knew where his off button was.

[Tommycat]

Actually Shem, you debunked nothing. I simply don't care about the inconsistencies as much to argue them, because I love Star Wars more. And the explanation about Bespin, I came up with it as I was typing it out. And it made sense.

 

Nope....they knew where his off button was.

I'm thinking they were sick of him before Hoth.

[Shem]

Actually Shem, you debunked nothing. I simply don't care about the inconsistencies as much to argue them, because I love Star Wars more. And the explanation about Bespin, I came up with it as I was typing it out. And it made sense.

 

 

I'm thinking they were sick of him before Hoth.

 

Oh, you're one of those who delude themselves into thinking they're never wrong about anything. Gotcha!

 

 

 

At least show me how I'm wrong... anything! That's right, didn't think so.

[adamqd]

I believe the trip to Bespin/Dagobah training, allows from 3 to 21 days according to time-line buffs, so, a bit of a hazy estimate, but at least we know it wasn't 12 hours, and there is the possibility of at least a crash course in Jedi, before he tapped up the third most powerful force user in the galaxy for a fisty cuffs.

[machievelli]

From what I noticed, you're looking for reasons to find flaws now, especially after I debunked your last attempt.

 

 

The shuttle was flying all around Vader's Star Destroyer. .

 

Shem, Shem, Shem, you aren't arguing logically. Either Vader and the Emperor can detect other force users, or they cannot. The shuttle in question was not as you said, flying 'around' the Super Star Destroyer. They were flying a direct non threatening course toward Endor. I know quite a lot about how a blockade is set up, and how a picket is organized. There is no way a shuttle can 'fly around' a warship on such duty without drawing fire. You have to steer a direct course, act as inoffensive as possible, obey all instructions. Anything else means you are dead.

 

 

What was he suppose to sense? Think about that one for a moment. As far as Vader was concerned at that moment he didn't know he had any children. So if you take that in consideration, what else is there to say? Maybe this would satisfy you:

 

Hypothetical Vader: "You're strong in the Force. You could be my child, but my wife died and assumed that my baby died as well, but being near you makes me believe that it was all a lie. But still, you are apart of the Rebel Alliance and a Traitor so I'm going take you back to the Death Star so we can sort this out."

Is that better for you? .

 

Shem, think. Vader and the Emperor started their takeover by slaughtering the Jedi down to the youngling. They murdered children to assure their rule. Do you think for a minute that Vader 18-20 years later would ignore that this woman he sees is a potential Jedi? He should be either suborning her to serve the Emperor, or having her killed out of hand. He would not care a whit that she might be his daughter. He should be destroying or tormenting her into the same mold the instant he detected her.

 

 

Maybe you just answered your own concern. And if I recall correctly, they mention in the ESB novel that it took a long time for Han and Leia to get to Cloud City and that Luke was on Dagobah way longer than it appeared in the movie.

 

As for that, think of it this way;

 

Distance from Earth to Alpha Centauri, 4.3 light years. Time to travel there in normal space at 80% light speed; Six years. Assuming the Star Wars Role Playing Game with speeds higher than Einstein's light speed limit, about three.

 

Now; assuming reactor mass needed to A: Exceed light speed and B: maintain it from Earth to Alpha Centauri, you are suggesting the entire mass of the ship to reach that target!

[mimartin]

They didn't show the space tow ship towing them to Bespin. They would have towed them all the way, but Hans used spent most of his credits on a bender to Nar Shaddaa.

 

This is how you argue Star Wars folks.

[Shem]

Shem, Shem, Shem, you aren't arguing logically. Either Vader and the Emperor can detect other force users, or they cannot.

Life isn't black and white and neither is this. For one thing Vader in ROTJ was already familiar with Luke being around him. The Emperor hadn't met him yet. Thus Vader had an advantage with familiarity.

 

The shuttle in question was not as you said, flying 'around' the Super Star Destroyer.

I already win the argument with these pictures alone.

 

 

 

Yeah, they're flying around it. So I was right. What you should have done is watch the movie and go to this scene first before saying anything.

 

 

They were flying a direct non threatening course toward Endor. I know quite a lot about how a blockade is set up, and how a picket is organized. There is no way a shuttle can 'fly around' a warship on such duty without drawing fire. You have to steer a direct course, act as inoffensive as possible, obey all instructions. Anything else means you are dead.

 

I can almost hear it now:

 

Commander 1: "That's one of our ships."

 

Commander 2: "It's too close. Blast it!"

 

Commander 1: "But sir it's one of ours and it's way smaller than us. There's no way it could harm us. Maybe we should give it time to identify itself before firing."

 

 

Shem, think.

That is what you should have done first. But you and I know that you're still going to try to be right and go all lawyer on me. Just remember people with logical minds won't buy it.

 

 

Vader and the Emperor started their takeover by slaughtering the Jedi down to the youngling. They murdered children to assure their rule. Do you think for a minute that Vader 18-20 years later would ignore that this woman he sees is a potential Jedi?

Except that who is going to train her? The thing is not all Force users were trained. Please don't make me explain that part. Oh, wait, you're still going to say something to make me have to do it anyway aren't you?

 

 

He should be either suborning her to serve the Emperor, or having her killed out of hand. He would not care a whit that she might be his daughter. He should be destroying or tormenting her into the same mold the instant he detected her.

Or he could have saw potential in her and wanted to use her to help him destroy the Emperor. Wait, isn't that what he wanted to do with Luke? Yeah, I think that establishes how Vader thinks.

 

 

As for that, think of it this way;

 

Distance from Earth to Alpha Centauri, 4.3 light years. Time to travel there in normal space at 80% light speed; Six years. Assuming the Star Wars Role Playing Game with speeds higher than Einstein's light speed limit, about three.

 

Now; assuming reactor mass needed to A: Exceed light speed and B: maintain it from Earth to Alpha Centauri, you are suggesting the entire mass of the ship to reach that target!

 

[Lynk Former]

Another thing to consider... wasn't the Falcon's navigation computer damaged, the computer that calculates jumps to hyperspace, and that's why they couldn't jump to hyperspace? They weren't incapable of actually jumping to hyperspace, they were just unable to calculate a jump to a place that wasn't close enough and didn't have a fairly simple set of jump calculations.

 

So wouldn't it be possible that part of the journey to Bespin was actually done through some very careful rudimentary hyperspace calculations to cut down as much of the time as safely as they could?

 

Just something to think about.

[Dread Advocate]

Another thing to consider... wasn't the Falcon's navigation computer damaged, the computer that calculates jumps to hyperspace, and that's why they couldn't jump to hyperspace? They weren't incapable of actually jumping to hyperspace, they were just unable to calculate a jump to a place that wasn't close enough and didn't have a fairly simple set of jump calculations.

 

So wouldn't it be possible that part of the journey to Bespin was actually done through some very careful rudimentary hyperspace calculations to cut down as much of the time as safely as they could?

 

Just something to think about.

 

I thought the same, but weren't Han and Leia sifting through a list of nearby systems that they could jump to without too much trouble?

[Lynk Former]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[mimartin]

"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, farm boy. Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" ~ Han's quote from Star Wars.