Return to Monkey Island

[demone]

I just realized it hasn't even been 4 weeks since the trailer dropped. In less than a month, we got a trailer, a revamped and interactive website with Stan, new images, and a fairly in-depth summary, not to mention the reveal of the first title card and music, and two gameplay videos showcasing movements, environments, more music, and some dialogue and voice acting. They are really ramping up marketing and I don't think they'll want to reveal too much more. A September release is seeming more and more probable, especially with voice acting being done for over a month now and the credits all inputted.

 

I'm seeing more and more positive comments on other channels saying they are really coming around to the art direction, so it's great to see more and more people getting excited as the release gets closer. Ron seems to really be enjoying doing the reveals too.

Edited July 26, 2022 by demone

[OzzieMonkey]

This game keeps looking better and better! That zoom into the coutroom was great, and the music transition was seemless! Great stuff. They've done a pretty good job of avoiding plot and puzzle spoiler so far, but I hope we don't get too many of these teases before release cause I don't want to see all the locations before I get to play it. 

[KestrelPi]

23 minutes ago, demone said:

I just realized it hasn't even been 4 weeks since the trailer dropped. In less than a month, we got a trailer, a revamped and interactive website with Stan, new images, and a fairly in-depth summary, not to mention the reveal of the first title card and music, and two gameplay videos showcasing movements, environments, more music, and some dialogue and voice acting. They are really ramping up marketing and I don't think they'll want to reveal too much more. A September release is seeming more and more probable, especially with voice acting being done for over a month now and the credits all inputted.

 

I'm seeing more and more positive comments on other channels saying they are really coming around to the art direction, so it's great to see more and more people getting excited as the release gets closer. Ron seems to really be enjoying doing the reveals too.

 

Yeah, I think there's been a bit of equilibrium, partially from the people being abusive probably getting bored, or maybe even some of them feeling suitably shamed (it can happen) and everyone else is either feeling actively positive or in more of a 'wait and see' frame of mind.

 

I think all but the very most die hard critics can at least see at this point that it's a game that has had a lot of effort put into its visuals. At this point I just don't think people asserting otherwise have any understanding at all of what it takes to create game assets, or if they do they're not commenting in good faith. And it's hard to be angry about work that somone clearly felt passionate about producing.

 

Anyway, enough of that, what I wanted to say was that yeah, I don't really see them wanting to try to maintain this sort of momentum past september. 7 more of these, and the last one is perhaps a release date for the following week.

 

----

Completely different topic as the forum will insist on merging my replies 🙄😉

 

Saw an interesting comment on twitter, "The cold must have hit fast as there is a poor bird on the roof frozen in ice mid-takeoff" -- sort of adds credence to the potential idea that the island isn't naturally cold, but that it happened very suddenly at some point. Still to be called Brrr Muda I guess it would have had to have been some time ago.

 

Maybe as part of the story Guybrush fixes the cold and we get to see the island all thawed out... that'd be pretty interesting. It's not very often you see that drastic a change to a location in an adventure game. I always loved the transition between year 1 and 2 in Grim Fandango's Rubacava, and then seeing El Marrow in years 1 and 4. And of course, this was written into DOTT's whole structure. There's something weirdly magical about revisiting a location and finding it profoundly changed.

Edited July 26, 2022 by KestrelPi

[Vainamoinen]

4 hours ago, demone said:

I'm seeing more and more positive comments on other channels saying they are really coming around to the art direction, so it's great to see more and more people getting excited as the release gets closer. Ron seems to really be enjoying doing the reveals too.

 

It's so stupid I have to go to nitter to read those comments, but people are actually turning around quite a bit on twitter as well. And that's so great to see after all that crap that we've seen after the trailer. I even found one comment on a German forum yesterday – dude said he just can't cope with the art style, "I'm out". Which really is the way to deal with this. I've seen so many "Ron Gilbert sh*t on my childhood" type comments at the beginning of the month, I'm actually thankful for these occasional "civil negativity" ones.

 

On that same forum, some guy has never played Tales because he didn't like the art. But he'll be back for Return, so ... 🕉️

 

... getting there!

Edited July 26, 2022 by Vainamoinen

[BaronGrackle]

What are the odds that Ron's going to immediately start working on a sequel using similar sprites, like he did with MI2 after MI1?

 

Related: what are the odds that we're going to see Monkey Island merchandise, available and affordable for really the first time, and in the style of this game?

[Garystu]

I'm glad to see people getting used to and enjoying the art style.

 

Speaking of getting used to things, I'm also beginning to look forward to the fact that this will probably be the last Monkey Island game.

It was hard to see the official website call ReMI "The exciting conclusion" at first. But considering all the franchise has been through, I'm starting to get excited that the story gets to have a real ending.

 

Its always sad to see something go, of course. Since I've only been with the series since TOMI, I can't imagine how somebody who's been there the whole 30+ years feels. But there's good reasons why no series should last forever. I don't know if other people are also coming around on this, but I am.

[KestrelPi]

I'd be fine with it if this were the last MI game Ron works on

 

I'd be fine with it if this were just the last MI game, as long as the conclusion is satisfying

 

I'd also be fine with it if the ending left it open for other people to tell their own stories in the same world, and my biggest hope for this installment is it might free creators from having to over-worry about canon.

[Ramen]

It's 

26 minutes ago, Guybrush Transmasc said:

I'm glad to see people getting used to and enjoying the art style.

It's not so much that people are getting used to it, as they are tired of getting attacked by fanatics.

The art/animation still looks awful and cheap.

 

[Thrik]

23 minutes ago, Ramen said:

It's 

It's not so much that people are getting used to it, as they are tired of getting attacked by fanatics.

The art/animation still looks awful and cheap.

 

You’re in the wrong part of town, boy.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Guybrush Transmasc said:

I'm glad to see people getting used to and enjoying the art style.

 

Speaking of getting used to things, I'm also beginning to look forward to the fact that this will probably be the last Monkey Island game.

It was hard to see the official website call ReMI "The exciting conclusion" at first. But considering all the franchise has been through, I'm starting to get excited that the story gets to have a real ending.

 

Its always sad to see something go, of course. Since I've only been with the series since TOMI, I can't imagine how somebody who's been there the whole 30+ years feels. But there's good reasons why no series should last forever. I don't know if other people are also coming around on this, but I am.

Yeah I’m loving it. I quickly grew to appreciate what the artist was going for anyway, but seeing actual gameplay in motion really has just breathed life into it.

 

I really love how alive that snowy scene feels. It just oozes atmosphere, which I’m sure the audio and music design will only enhance further.

 

I also really like this idea that the scene zooms in when talking to characters. It’s a nice compromise between making costly close-ups for all the characters and having cinematic framing more often.

[Ramen]

7 minutes ago, Thrik said:

You’re in the wrong part of town, boy.

Thanks for proving my point. I'm not a boy, btw.

[MurraySchull]

Yeah, I'm happy with this being the final game (provided the ending delivers, of course!)  I'd rather have an ending now that leaves the series on a good note, ties up as many loose ends as it deems necessary, and features as much of the returning cast and crew as possible, than launch a story-arc that lasts many, many games in which the original talent gradually disappears, reviews and overall appreciation of the series begins to dwindle, the music wanes after the original composers depart, eventually Guybrush has to be recast, etc.

 

My one lament with ReMI happening now rather than ten years earlier is that Boen can't be part of it (unless they've worked something out behind the scenes, and that's the big surprise!)  But Ron most likely wouldn't have been able to work on the game ten years earlier either, so it's really a "pick your poison" of either recasting LeChuck, or not having Ron's third game at all.

Edited July 26, 2022 by fentongames

[Thrik]

8 minutes ago, fentongames said:

Yeah, I'm happy with this being the final game (provided the ending delivers, of course!)  I'd rather have an ending now that leaves the series on a good note, ties up as many loose ends as it deems necessary, and features as much of the returning cast and crew as possible, than launch a story-arc that lasts many, many games in which the original talent gradually disappears, reviews and overall appreciation of the series begins to dwindle, the music wanes after the original composers depart, eventually Guybrush has to be recast, etc.

 

My one lament with ReMI happening now rather than ten years earlier is that Boen can't be part of it (unless they've worked something out behind the scenes, and that's the big surprise!)  But Ron most likely wouldn't have been able to work on the game ten years earlier either, so it's really a "pick your poison" of either recasting LeChuck, or not having Ron's third game at all.

Haha, I’ve been hoping so much for a surprise Boen reveal. Although the circumstances were different, his initial absence and then appearance in Tales has put the idea in my head that it could happen.

 

With that said, the guy playing the judge in the latest snippet has a few moments where he sounds like he has the range and style to pull off LeChuck.

 

1 hour ago, BaronGrackle said:

What are the odds that Ron's going to immediately start working on a sequel using similar sprites, like he did with MI2 after MI1?

 

Related: what are the odds that we're going to see Monkey Island merchandise, available and affordable for really the first time, and in the style of this game?

We ran a poll a while back where a  surprising number of people said they’re up for spending thousands on merchandise for this game. They will be absolutely nuts to not put some awesome swag out there.

[Vainamoinen]

1 hour ago, BaronGrackle said:

Related: what are the odds that we're going to see Monkey Island merchandise, available and affordable for really the first time, and in the style of this game?

 

Depends on Disney. If they let Devolver, something like this might surface:

https://merch.devolverdigital.co/collections/all-products
 

If nothing surfaces, or nothing good, we'll have to print our "An attempt at a walkthrough" appreciation book ourselves.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Vainamoinen

[KestrelPi]

2 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:

What are the odds that Ron's going to immediately start working on a sequel using similar sprites, like he did with MI2 after MI1?

 

Related: what are the odds that we're going to see Monkey Island merchandise, available and affordable for really the first time, and in the style of this game?

 

I personally think very slim for a quick sequel. If we do get one I think he'll be torn between sticking with this art style out of stubbornness in response to the abuse, and going with a fresh one because that's always been the way that MI sequels have worked.

 

We know the backgrounds of MI1 and MI2 are rather different in style, but even the sprite styles of MI1 and 2, while similar, aren't identical. They are similarly proportioned but it looks like effort has been made to make them more detailed around the face, more shaded around the hair, etc. Compare how much depth guybrush's face and head has in MI2 vs  MI1, for example:

 

4 pixels to define the eyes vs 2, it looks like 3 shades of colour for the hair, and so on. It's subtle stuff but they were clearly thinking about how they could add detail while still being restricted by the technological requirements. (Stan seems to be pretty much identical aside from some palette swaps, but I guess that's understandable.)

 

All of which is to say, I think where Ron is at right now his instincts would tell him to keep on tweaking, refining, pushing forward if he did go on to make ANOTHER Monkey Island - and Rex might well want to move onto other projects anyway.
 

2 hours ago, Ramen said:

It's 

It's not so much that people are getting used to it, as they are tired of getting attacked by fanatics.

The art/animation still looks awful and cheap.

 

 

I, too, can make declarative statements:

 

The art and animation looks wonderful and detailed.

 

See, isn't this wonderful? What a great and edifying discussion we're having. How the discourse has been enriched by this back-and-forth we're engaged in.

Edited July 26, 2022 by KestrelPi

[BaronGrackle]

19 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

(Stan seems to be pretty much identical aside from some palette swaps, but I guess that's understandable.)

And Elaine looks virtually unchanged, to my casual eyes. I think Voodoo Lady is just wearing a different dress, but I could be off.

 

I get it when people say that Secret and Revenge were completely different artstyles and put some backgrounds alongside each other, and I understand the assertion that "we aren't having the same conversation" if I can't see that.

 

But amidst that, I look at Elaine. And during the dream sequence, I look at MI2 Guybrush facing MI1 Guybrush, and they feel like they're in the same reality... as opposed to Curse Guybrush standing alongside drowned Secret Guybrush, which can only feel like a break in the fourth wall.

 

So instead of saying things like "MI1 and MI2 look like the same art style", I should shift it to something like "MI1 and MI2 have comparable character art for the main cast", and acknowledge it doesn't extend to closeups or minor characters. (Though I think Rapp Scallion's depiction is closer to the ones in Secret.)

Edited July 26, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[Ramen]

14 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

I, too, can make declarative statements:

 

The art and animation looks wonderful and detailed.

 

See, isn't this wonderful? What a great and edifying discussion we're having. How the discourse has been enriched by this back-and-forth we're engaged in.

I'm glad to see you are open to discussion. 

I disagree. Looks like a jumbled mess to me. Compared to the hand drawn art of Peter Chan and Bill Tiller in MI2 and MI3, it’s not much better than the horrible special editions they put out. Anyone who has even visited an art class knows that you can critique technique and style in a debate, without depending entirely on your feelings and subjective experience.

 

Guybrushes nose looks like a penis, he has a bobble head, animation looks like cutout puppets with limbs pivoting around the joints, colors are grossly oversaturated, backgrounds look like a mess and have several focal points making it hard to discern characters and points of interest, characters have black soulless pinpoint eyes and generally look like they are lifted from an abstract painting or childrens iPad novel. Kinda reminds me of Hamlet, except that looked better and had technically better art direction.

[KestrelPi]

3 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

And Elaine looks virtually unchanged, to my casual eyes. I think Voodoo Lady is just wearing a different dress, but I could be off.

 

I get it when people say that Secret and Revenge were completely different artstyles and put some backgrounds alongside each other, and I understand the assertion that "we aren't having the same conversation" if I can't see that.

 

But amidst that, I look at Elaine. And during the dream sequence, I look at MI2 Guybrush facing MI1 Guybrush, and they feel like they're in the same reality... as opposed to Curse Guybrush standing alongside drowned Secret Guybrush, which can only feel like a break in the fourth wall.

 

So instead of saying things like "MI1 and MI2 look like the same art style", I should shift it to something like "MI1 and MI2 have comparable character art for the main cast", and acknowledge it doesn't extend to closeups or minor characters. (Though I think Rapp Scallion's depiction is closer to the ones in Secret.)

 

Oh yeah, absolutely I mean... I think that general kind of sprite proportion/level of detail lasted LucasArts through several games, MI1, MI2, Indy 3, Indy 4, arguably The Dig, too are definetely 'of a piece' in a lot of ways, I just think in MI2 if they'd been able to create higher detailed sprites to match the more hand-drawn look of the artwork, they probably would have.

3 minutes ago, Ramen said:

I'm glad to see you are open to discussion. 

I disagree. Looks like a jumbled mess to me. Compared to the hand drawn art of Peter Chan and Bill Tiller in MI2 and MI3, it’s not much better than the horrible special editions they put out. Anyone who has even visited an art class knows that you can critique technique and style in a debate, without depending entirely on your feelings and subjective experience.

 

Guybrushes nose looks like a penis, he has a bobble head, animation looks like cutout puppets with limbs pivoting around the joints, colors are grossly oversaturated, backgrounds look like a mess and have several focal points making it hard to discern characters and points of interest, characters have black soulless pinpoint eyes and generally look like they are lifted from an abstract painting or childrens iPad novel. Kinda reminds me of Hamlet, except that looked better and had technically better art direction.

 

Ah.

 

I don't think any of those things.

[Thrik]

9 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

And Elaine looks virtually unchanged, to my casual eyes. I think Voodoo Lady is just wearing a different dress, but I could be off.

 

I get it when people say that Secret and Revenge were completely different artstyles and put some backgrounds alongside each other, and I understand the assertion that "we aren't having the same conversation" if I can't see that.

 

But amidst that, I look at Elaine. And during the dream sequence, I look at MI2 Guybrush facing MI1 Guybrush, and they feel like they're in the same reality... as opposed to Curse Guybrush standing alongside drowned Secret Guybrush, which can only feel like a break in the fourth wall.

 

So instead of saying things like "MI1 and MI2 look like the same art style", I should shift it to something like "MI1 and MI2 have comparable character art for the main cast", and acknowledge it doesn't extend to closeups or minor characters. (Though I think Rapp Scallion's depiction is closer to the ones in Secret.)

Although it doesn’t particularly change what you’re saying, it’s worth noting that the sprites reused in MI2 we’re the updated VGA sprites that were made closer to/concurrently with MI2’s development. The original EGA sprites wouldn’t fit in quite so seamlessly.

[Ramen]

5 minutes ago, KestrelPi said:

Ah.

 

I don't think any of those things.

 

Still doesn't change the fact that they are true. But you are welcome to make any counterarguments, since you invited an edifying discussion.

[BaronGrackle]

12 minutes ago, Ramen said:

I'm glad to see you are open to discussion. 

I disagree. Looks like a jumbled mess to me. Compared to the hand drawn art of Peter Chan and Bill Tiller in MI2 and MI3, it’s not much better than the horrible special editions they put out. Anyone who has even visited an art class knows that you can critique technique and style in a debate, without depending entirely on your feelings and subjective experience.

 

Guybrushes nose looks like a penis, he has a bobble head, animation looks like cutout puppets with limbs pivoting around the joints, colors are grossly oversaturated, backgrounds look like a mess and have several focal points making it hard to discern characters and points of interest, characters have black soulless pinpoint eyes and generally look like they are lifted from an abstract painting or childrens iPad novel. Kinda reminds me of Hamlet, except that looked better and had technically better art direction.

You seem angry. I get angry too. But this doesn't feel like the environment.

 

Here, enjoy this old Captain Mystery article that spews more hate at Ron Gilbert than we've probably seen in the past few months, for cultivating a section of the fanbase into diehards: https://mixnmojo.com/features/sitefeatures/LucasArts-Secret-History-6-Monkey-Island-2-LeChucks-Revenge/4

Edited July 26, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[Ramen]

Just now, BaronGrackle said:

You seem angry. I get angry too. But this doesn't feel like the environment.

 

Here, enjoy this old Captain Mystery article that spews more hate at Ron Gilbert than we've probably seen in the past few months, for cultivating a section of the fanbase into diehards: https://mixnmojo.com/features/sitefeatures/LucasArts-Secret-History-6-Monkey-Island-2-LeChucks-Revenge/4

Thanks for the concern, I'm just enjoying my spritzer in the sun, watching the beautiful people passe me by

I'm not really interested in your article, but the art on the header image is great! Wish they had done something like that for ReMI!

[KestrelPi]

6 hours ago, Ramen said:

 

Still doesn't change the fact that they are true. But you are welcome to make any counterarguments, since you invited an edifying discussion.

 

Oh okay.

 

Guybrushes nose doesn't look like a penis, his body proportions are in keeping with kind of storybook/scrapbook feel the art style is going for, animation similarly, and it's also looking like it's going to be probably the most custom animation we've seen in any of the games including the 3d ones, colours are bright but well-chosen and in keeping with the style, backgrounds are heavily stylised and angular, but have a great sense of life especially while in motion,  characters have very expressive faces in a way that we've never seen in a 2D Monkey Island before, even Curse where characters weren't very expressive outside of cutscenes.

 

Look.

 

Anyone can list a bunch of things and call them facts. Don't pretend you're taking the intellectual high road by doing so. Nah. What you're doing is not art criticism (if it were, you'd notice that the approaches between this and the MI1 special edition are EXTREMELY different and that this style is a lot more detailed and took a lot more effort), it's your own feelings about the art, which you've wrapped up in faux-critique in order to that you can act wounded whenever anyone refuses to engage with you on it.

 

You know, I've talked to a lot of different people about this art style, and you know the ones I've talked to who are the MOST excited about it? Often, they're artists. By all means don't like the art. Just stop pretending that you have access to some higher level of critique that makes you 'correct' about it.

 

Since you missed my sarcasm the first time round, let me be absolutely clear: I am not going to engage with this line of argument any more.

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by KestrelPi

[Garystu]

I'm so sorry that I brought the graphics discussion back, I just wanted to talk about making peace with this being the final entry in the series. 😭😭

 

2 hours ago, Thrik said:

Yeah I’m loving it. I quickly grew to appreciate what the artist was going for anyway, but seeing actual gameplay in motion really has just breathed life into it.

 

I really love how alive that snowy scene feels. It just oozes atmosphere, which I’m sure the audio and music design will only enhance further.

 

I also really like this idea that the scene zooms in when talking to characters. It’s a nice compromise between making costly close-ups for all the characters and having cinematic framing more often.

 

Although this is some really beautiful praise and I agree.

[KestrelPi]

Sorry for engaging, also. In my defense, I haven't done it MUCH over the last few months, and I'm having a really rough week so I thought I'd indulge. As a little treat. Even though I know it's bad for me.

[BaronGrackle]

16 minutes ago, Thrik said:

Although it doesn’t particularly change what you’re saying, it’s worth noting that the sprites reused in MI2 we’re the updated VGA sprites that were made closer to/concurrently with MI2’s development. The original EGA sprites wouldn’t fit in quite so seamlessly.

Tangent: It was only last month that I first played EGA Secret of Monkey Island. Experiencing the Stump Joke for the very first time was almost magical... it's a crime that people entering the franchise from 1992 onward only knew ABOUT there being a stump joke, once upon a time. And it's a shame they didn't grab Dominic's voice for it in the special editions.

I didn't even know about the Mêlée sunset until this year. Or that there's a comment for Turn On or Turn Off the grog machine.

Or that, in any version, you can beg and receive 2 pieces of eight, if you learn about Otis's breath but have no money. I've learned... so many things about the Secret of Monkey Island games this year that I never would have if Return hadn't been announced. I learned about the bugged Porthole Defoggers that keep Stan from selling his ship for 2000 (so the best deal you can get is 3000, plus porthole defoggers and another extra of your choice). I learned about swordmaster multiresponses - that the true ultimate comeback is "I'm glad to hear you attended your family reunion" - and the mystery of her refusal to use "long sharp lesson" in the special edition. (LogicDeluxe seems to have fully dissected Stan, and the speedrunner community made multiresponses known, but apparently MI fan communication was so disconnected that neither of them learnex the other's discovery until this year.)

 

I've recently seen deleted scenes that folks like you have probably known about for decades.

 

I'm rambling and don't really have a cohesive point. But maybe I can end my thoughts with:

 

1) When you refer to "the memory of the original games", be aware there are probably other people like me who have had even STRONGER experiences replaying/rediscovering those games in the past few months than our memories remembered. Revenge was my favorite before Return was announced, but Secret has replaced it in the time since then.

 

2) It is amazing how Return has breathed life into so much of this saga by the simple fact of existing.