Return to Monkey Island VERY EARLY GAME Spoiler Discussion (Up through early Part One)

[KestrelPi]

18 minutes ago, fentongames said:

MAN I wish there could've been a camera on me at the moment when the camera panned over and revealed

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Guybrush,

my jaw dropped. Then when I hovered the cursor over it and revealed

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"Hi, Dad!",

...my jaw was on the floor.

 

31 years of theories and predictions... did *anybody* manage to predict this correctly?!! 😵 I don't think I ever saw one person suggesting that

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the parents weren't really their parents, Chuckie wasn't really his brother, or that the boy in the ending wasn't Guybrush... but Guybrush's SON!

 

I was racking my brain trying to think what Noah, Dom, etc. could've possibly meant by the game having such an unbelievably clever way of dealing with MI2's ending that didn't involve time travel or "a wizard did it" logic, that we couldn't have figured out anyway. But man, did they find a way.

 

 

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All of the alleged canon issues, the inconsistencies, the embellishments, are gone after this opening. The story is being handed down from father to son. So it's already potentially being embellished once, and his son is embellishing it again himself and filling in the blanks. If one of them felt that making Herman Elaine's grandfather would be cool at some point, or the finale of Escape needed a robot... sure, why not?! Then if they change their mind later, fair enough. It's all interpretation. To think that initially Ron's plan years ago was to erase 3-5 from canon. Now, I think the whole series fits together better than it ever did before.

 

I think this is honestly the most surprised I've been by a twist in a work of fiction for a long time. I don't have that much of a visible reaction to movies/games/TV anymore (I still feel, it's just internalised!) but yeah, this was something else.

 

And yes. I have finished the game! I don't have the coherency to write an essay on the whole thing (again, this opening is the exception), so I'll post my full thoughts in bullet points in the other thread.

 

Teaser reaction: "!!!!!!!!!!"

 

I do not think that anyone predicted those things. Maybe I'm giving myself too much credit, but I feel like I got close in a lot of ways by predicting:

 

• Years later, Guybrush would take his own kids to the park
• The park would be more run down than it appears in the end of MI2

But I suppose this might be a vehicle to relaunch into the fantasy of the MI universe by providing a reason for a time skip and recontextualisation of the park. It didn't really occur to me ever that the time skip had already happened and we were experiencing a mixture of Guybrush's relayed memories/stories and a child's imagining of those same memories/stories.

1 minute ago, BaronGrackle said:

Well, I figured the outhouse was really a restroom that was modern enough to have a "please wash your hands" sign... I figured the gross poo water coming from a crack in the wall was really slightly-less-poo water coming from a sink... I figured the vender was selling food for modern currency instead of pieces of eight... and that it would be selling more ordinary weenie hut food, which the boys would imagine as pirate themed things like "scurvy dogs" and "grog"... I figured that that anchor with a plaque was really something like Lafitte's Anchor at Disneyland... I figured the barrels didn't really have rats with sunglasses floating recreationally... 😎

 

...I was thinking it was boys in a very small amusement park imagining they were in pirate times, but are you guys saying that it's actually boys in an ordinary community park imagining they're in pirate times cursed to look like a large amusement park, or maybe imagining pirate times overall but very briefly imagining it as a large amusement park, before going back to the pirate times game? 🤯

 

I really think you can read this in various ways (for example pieces of eight could just be interpreted as the real world currency, or it could be interpreted as one of those theme park currencies some theme parks have instead of real money, or it could be interpreted as this is a bit that is still in the imaginitive voice of the kids)

 

But I do think the implication of the beginning that we are peeling back the fantasy piece by piece is at least supposed to be reasonably clear, and that the scurvy dog shack is 'realer' than the weenie hut. It just leaves enough ambiguity that where the line is drawn can be fairly flexible.

[Laserschwert]

Giving myself a BIT of credit:

[KestrelPi]

7 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

...I was thinking it was boys in a very small amusement park imagining they were in pirate times, but are you guys saying that it's actually boys in an ordinary community park imagining they're in pirate times cursed to look like a large amusement park, or maybe imagining pirate times overall but very briefly imagining it as a large amusement park, before going back to the pirate times game? 🤯

I think we're supposed to experience the blurred lines of this, somewhat, in order to allow for the interpretation.

 

Part of it is that the worker coming in and booting them out of the tunnels impinges on the fantasy somewhat, and what we see over the next couple of minutes is a bit like when you're slowly waking from a dream you're becoming aware of and noticing it makes less and less sense until the logic of it unravels. So in a way to me it's not SUPPOSED to make sense, there are supposed to be gaps and inconsistencies, and into those gaps and inconsistencies you can insert... the start of CMI, or the end of it.

 

The other thing about it is... you know how when you're a kid sometimes you go somewhere and it seems like the grandest, best place in the world, and then maybe later you see pictures of it or revisit it and you realise 'oh wait. This place was actually very bland, or even gross'. Similar with that comment that they make about Scurvy Dogs being the best food ever. They clearly aren't, but I remember the feeling of thinking some pretty bad food was amazing as a kid.

 

So maybe when they emerge from the tunnels what we're seeing is the kids' idealised view of the park, and when they walk back again we're seeing it a more as Guybrush might see it, when we meet up with him. We're gently moving from the kids' perspective of the story to Guybrush's closer-to-reality but still-ambiguous version.

[Marius]

I'm a little confused by these early lines, when the "parents" look at the parrot.
 

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"It's so lifelike."

"I wonder if it's real?'

 

 

It is a perfect reflection of our own thoughts. But I keep thinking why are they surprised by this parrot? Are there no parrots in "real life"? Also, it's the same parrot the locksmith has in her store.

 

Anyone else wondered about this? Am I overthinking? Whatever it is, I am excited to be majorly puzzled again.

 

[BaronGrackle]

I've said a lot of passive aggressive and regular aggressive things about this game, and I'll probably have more in the future, so I should make note of my positive thought so far:

I was kind of anxious that Ron Gilbert was going to give us a single explanation for this world, and tell us (in George Lucas fashion) that this explanation was his singular vision that he had from the very beginning. But I don't think he's taking that path. I feel like this setup with unreliable narrators... not just one unreliable narrator, but multiples... is a humble rejection of that singular vision concept. But it's also a setup that has a lot more beauty than simply saying: "Don't think about it too hard."

 

And if so, then I'm relieved. I couldn't have believed this was just a straight story like On Stranger Tides, because of the goofiness and modern bits. I couldn't have believed this was just a nine-year-old imagining things, because of the adult thoughts and comments Guybrush occasionally has. I couldn't have believed that the ORIGINAL original Secret of Monkey Island was something unrelated to a voodoo hellgate, because I've read Gilbert's own words in the earliest design documents.

 

Monkey Island is literally a fictional setting that has shifted over decades due to multiple writers, due to the changing perspectives of the same writers, and due to the reception of those stories by the audience/fans - an audience which has included previous writers from earlier entries of the series as well as future writers of upcoming stories. The first game had its beginnings before Indy Last Crusade and wasn't finished until after... I have no doubt Ron and the others had multiple ideas about the game's nature that evolved up to the day of that game's release, and continued evolving beyond it - and that's even before considering the sequels.

 

If you wanted, you could illustrate this metaphor by taking an image of that park bench scene and photoshopping Ron's head on Guybrush, with people like Ahern, Ackley, Clark, Stemmle, etc. as the surrounding kids. And because the franchise has existed for decades, people like Jake here would have actually been kids when the first story was told. And naturally, there's no reason to think Guybrush would tell the same story exactly the same way as he would have several years ago... especially after he's heard variations of those stories repeated by the kids, and wants to enthrall them further.

 

I've heard the George Lucas narrative of a singular, unchanging vision which I can't quite believe (because we know things have changed with him). I've heard the Tad Stones narrative of no continuity whatsoever, which I can't quite believe (because there are pieces to the stories that clearly carry over, so "no continuity" seems like a cop-out). With those other writers and universes in mind, it's nice and a bit refreshing to have the Monkey Island story microcosmed to this image.

 

So thank you for not lying about a single genius vision, but also for not telling us "don't think about it too hard". Because goshdarn, I like to think about it too hard.

Edited September 21, 2022 by BaronGrackle

[BaronGrackle]

36 minutes ago, Marius said:

I'm a little confused by these early lines, when the "parents" look at the parrot.
 

 

It is a perfect reflection of our own thoughts. But I keep thinking why are they surprised by this parrot? Are there no parrots in "real life"? Also, it's the same parrot the locksmith has in her store.

 

Anyone else wondered about this? Am I overthinking? Whatever it is, I am excited to be majorly puzzled again.

 

It isn't in the original MI2 scene by the giraffe. But it also doesn't look like Mr. Polly.

[Aro-tron]

3 hours ago, Marius said:

It is a perfect reflection of our own thoughts. But I keep thinking why are they surprised by this parrot? Are there no parrots in "real life"?

It's meant to be an audio-animatronic parrot, like they have at the Enchanted Tiki Room at Disneyland, isn't it? But yeah, I think it is meant to make us question of what is real and what is a simulacra.

[Knight Owl]

So uhhh... wait, the old pirate leaders only show up in this first act if you turn writers cut on? Hope I didn't miss too much by having it turned off...

[Remi]

1 minute ago, Knight Owl said:

So uhhh... wait, the old pirate leaders only show up in this first act if you turn writers cut on? Hope I didn't miss too much by having it turned off...

 

In my mind that's the biggest omission from the "regular" cut -- they should've kept it in.

 

But hey, now you have an(other) excuse to play the writers' cut!

[tmetic]

2 minutes ago, Knight Owl said:

So uhhh... wait, the old pirate leaders only show up in this first act if you turn writers cut on? Hope I didn't miss too much by having it turned off...

 

I've got writer's cut off too (still at Part 4) but that's what second playthroughs are for. They wouldn't have cut it if they didn't think it improved the experience first time round.

[Knight Owl]

I supposed the writers cut is sort of like this game's "annoying in-jokes" from thimbleweed park, sort of more meant for fans of the old games? Maybe I'll keep it on for the rest of my playthrough

[Romão]

The menu music is a reworking of the theme we hear when Guybrush meets the lookout, after the main title sequence, in The Secret of Monkey Island, is it not?

[KestrelPi]

7 hours ago, Romão said:

The menu music is a reworking of the theme we hear when Guybrush meets the lookout, after the main title sequence, in The Secret of Monkey Island, is it not?

 

Yes, I also believe you hear this when you talk to the lookout in ReMI. It's a minor key variation of it.

 

I always loved that little bit of music, and it's very nostalgic to me since as a kid I would play the start of MI1 a lot, so I was glad to hear a version of it again.

[Niemandswasser]

Finally got to start the game this evening and I'm just amazed at the simplicity and elegance of the "solution" to MI2's ending, and how neatly it places all the other games into a continuity that still makes sense while allowing for as many "just go with it" diversions from established backstory as you like. I never would have thought of it in a million years, and I can't wait to play the rest of the game now!

 

(As to why the parents in Guybrush's MI2 dream look like the strangers in the park, simple! Li'l Brush saw them standing around and when it came time to play that part of the story he subbed their images in for the grandparents he never met!)

Edited September 23, 2022 by Niemandswasser