pbguy1211 Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Exactly worf... exactly... i don't see why he doesn't understand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simwiz2 Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Originally posted by Darth Windu well as i stated before i got annoyed because there was a vote placed that was not done because of what that person believed, but just to try to make a point, or some other reason. If they had voted for whatever option because they wanted it, fine. If they decided to oppose my idea's, fine. But rigging a vote i will not accept. What a sore loser. You remind me of Al Gore after the election: "the people don't know how to vote, it's rigged, blah blah blah..." Your Gunship idea has lost the vote, so please just shut up and get over it. Whining like a baby about 1 vote gets a bit annoying. Every registered member has a right to vote on your poll for whatever reason they want. If someone wants to vote no out of spite, then you have another vote for no, you have to just get over it and move on. Should everyone be required to state a reason why they want to vote and have it accepted by you for it to count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0RF Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 That's like saying that people vote for the best candidate in every election and not for the best party, or against the guy they hate, or against the other party, or for/against the incumbent. When you open a poll, you get the results you attract. There's no two ways around it. Now go back to explaining how 10 votes out of 29 is a majority. That at least was entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Originally posted by W0RF Whatever the case, you need to realize, Windu, that some two dozen people out of the thousands who browse this website, the millions who play the game, and the billions who live on earth, think your post is worth spending 5 seconds responding to. Polls are conducted using larger samples, scientifically administered, and calculate their margin of error. Your poll is anemic at best, totally unrepresentative of any practical scientific application, and on top of that, utterly worthless. Ah, but the poll listed here IS representative of the people that actually use these polls. There may be a thousands of people browsing this site, but that does NOT mean there are thousands of people browsing this thread (or even this list of threads). For all we know, many of the JKII, movie fans, Monkey Island fans, or the members of the various other lists that make up this site never come here. As for the millions that play... how many of them come here? How many of them ever KNOW about this site (I played GB for 5 months before I ever came to lucasforums.) They aren't a part of the equation because for every million that is against the idea, there might be 25 million that are for it. And as for the billions, we can automatically exclude anyone who doesn't play the game. For that matter, we can probably exclude anyone who hasn't seen or knows nothing about the movie since they wouldn't likely know how the gunship is potrayed in it anyway. The popular sample that we CAN concern ourselves with are the people that actually come here, and more particularly, with the people that actually contribute to the discussions that occur here. And by that, more people are in favor of having the gunship in some form other than it's current than those that don't favor a change at all. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0RF Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 LucasArts doesn't build their games around opinion polls created by users on a message board somewhere on the Internet. You said yourself that there are uncounted swarms that are not part of the poll because they do not browse this site. And yet you are suggesting that those who DO, somehow have some sort of authority to speak for them. Their is no practical way to include the gunship in the game, other than to use it as a toybox unit so that Windu can summon 150 gunships for his Senate game. And there is certainly no way LucasArts is going to turn the engine upside-down and cripple the gameplay just to make room for the whim of 22 people. If that were the case, the Zone would have fixed their RM/Scenario headache months ago. I said it before and I'll say it again, the problem lies not in the gunship or in the civs but in the strict limitations that the AoK engine places on their ability to make the civs all that different one from the other. Look at StarCraft. The Terrans, Zerg and Protoss are CONSIDERABLY different one from the other, not only in terms of balanced abilities, but in the nature and function of their buildings and units. The GB engine does not allow that degree of flexibility, so the bottom line is, however much time you dedicate to making these civs behave differently, they will still play about 80% the same. There is no place in this world for a gunship, and quite frankly, I think the Republic and the game in general is none the worse for not having it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 Originally posted by W0RF LucasArts doesn't build their games around opinion polls created by users on a message board somewhere on the Internet. You said yourself that there are uncounted swarms that are not part of the poll because they do not browse this site. And yet you are suggesting that those who DO, somehow have some sort of authority to speak for them. They do in a sense. If during a presidental election only 5% of all eligible voters vote then all those that didn't vote are at the mercy of the those that did. Granted, our votes don't affect what WILL occur at LucasArts, since those decisions lie solely on the designers and administrators. And while they may not care way or another as to what goes on here, it doesn't negate the value of the opinions of the people arguing. I've heard tell that they (LucasArts) do listen to the discussions at various fan-based sites from time to time and have instigated changes, such as the AT-ATs ability to fire at air, though I obviously cannot confirm this myself since I do not work for them. It never hurts present a survey of views however, on the off chance that someone might be listening. Their is no practical way to include the gunship in the game, other than to use it as a toybox unit so that Windu can summon 150 gunships for his Senate game. And there is certainly no way LucasArts is going to turn the engine upside-down and cripple the gameplay just to make room for the whim of 22 people. If that were the case, the Zone would have fixed their RM/Scenario headache months ago. Certainly there is. Give the standard gunship fighter the ability to transports a couple of mansized units and lower the carrying capacity of normal air transports to compensate (and perhaps increase the price and/or buildspeed of the gunship fighter to slow down air-dropped trooper rushes). How much does this really change? Not much in all honesty, but it does give the gunship the ability to air-drop troops. And if this seems to give them an advantage, the fact that the regular transports wouldn't be able to carry as many unit limits the fast dispersion of heavy, mechs, and the like. Certainly this will result in different strategies, but that's all a part of the game. I said it before and I'll say it again, the problem lies not in the gunship or in the civs but in the strict limitations that the AoK engine places on their ability to make the civs all that different one from the other. Look at StarCraft. The Terrans, Zerg and Protoss are CONSIDERABLY different one from the other, not only in terms of balanced abilities, but in the nature and function of their buildings and units. The GB engine does not allow that degree of flexibility, so the bottom line is, however much time you dedicate to making these civs behave differently, they will still play about 80% the same. There is no place in this world for a gunship, and quite frankly, I think the Republic and the game in general is none the worse for not having it. I agree that the GB engine could use a bit more flexibility, though I think they can do a bit more then what they've done to it in the way of creating diversity. Will if change the way people differentiate in their play of various civs? Probably not, at least not to any great extent. As for whether there is a place for the gunship in the game, I can see it (provided it's not the 4-individual targeting laser, missile firing, mini-aircruiser version of it), though in truth it really doesn't matter to me as the game currently sits. If a number of changes were made to the overall game though, I could see it as being a possibility. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0RF Posted August 19, 2002 Share Posted August 19, 2002 You're just rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic, dude. Even assuming that they could alter the functionality of their generic units, which I don't think they can do that, the only alternative they have is to cripple or remove altogether their fighter and air transport to make room for the UU. It seems like a lot of effort to put into a civ that is already very powerful, with no perceivable benefit other than you will have some assault-chopper-type unit that just happened to be in the movie. I really don't see a balance here in terms of cost versus benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbguy1211 Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 thank you w0rf for bringing some sense of reason back to this forum. and i loved the comment on them being only for use in windu's senate game... lol, too funny. and most likely true. i guess that's why i find it funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 Originally posted by W0RF You're just rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic, dude. Even assuming that they could alter the functionality of their generic units, which I don't think they can do that, the only alternative they have is to cripple or remove altogether their fighter and air transport to make room for the UU. Well that's an unknown variable. If it's easy to change the generic make to a unit then it wouldn't require removing the fighter and transport. Is it easy? Who knows. It could be rather simple. BUT, on the assumption that it CAN'T be done as I suggested, then yeah, I wouldn't suggest replacing both the fighter and transport with a single unit. It seems like a lot of effort to put into a civ that is already very powerful, with no perceivable benefit other than you will have some assault-chopper-type unit that just happened to be in the movie. I really don't see a balance here in terms of cost versus benefit. Perhaps, but I'm not suggesting that the only change being made to the game is to give the republic the gunship. If that was the only thing I would want, then I'd only want it as a toybox unit or a cheat unit. If ANY civ were to suddenly acquire a unique, then I'd certainly hope that other changes were made to the other civs as possibility global aspects of the game. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 Don'tcha just hate it when the blasted thing freezes up and then end up posting the same message twice? Ah well, lucky thing there's an edit function. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simwiz2 Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 Originally posted by Kryllith They do in since. If they do see the poll and use it, they would probably put in a toybox gunship since most people are against the UU, and toybox has many votes. Certainly there is. Give the standard gunship fighter the ability to transports a couple of mansized units and lower the carrying capacity of normal air transports to compensate (and perhaps increase the price and/or buildspeed of the gunship fighter to slow down air-dropped trooper rushes). How much does this really change? Not much in all honesty, but it does give the gunship the ability to air-drop troops. And if this seems to give them an advantage, the fact that the regular transports wouldn't be able to carry as many unit limits the fast dispersion of heavy, mechs, and the like. Certainly this will result in different strategies, but that's all a part of the game. I would be a bit worried about harming republic air power. If the fighters are more expensive or slower their combat efficiency will suffer greatly. And cost-effectively you would be losing if you were evenly matched with your opponent in air and battled it out. The trooper drop might work in some cases, but I think the fighter's vulnerability to AA and its costing nova would prevent its use as a transport. I don't think it would be very useful. Also it would be awful micromanagement. Can you imagine commanding all 40 of your fighters to drop their units while also battling with your opponent's air force? Imagine all the fighters trying to drop your units at the spot you clicked and getting stuck on each other and watching your enemy's smaller air force destroy them effortlessly. use it as a toybox unit so that Windu can summon 150 gunships for his Senate game LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 Originally posted by simwiz2 I would be a bit worried about harming republic air power. If the fighters are more expensive or slower their combat efficiency will suffer greatly. And cost-effectively you would be losing if you were evenly matched with your opponent in air and battled it out. The trooper drop might work in some cases, but I think the fighter's vulnerability to AA and its costing nova would prevent its use as a transport. I don't think it would be very useful. Also it would be awful micromanagement. Can you imagine commanding all 40 of your fighters to drop their units while also battling with your opponent's air force? Imagine all the fighters trying to drop your units at the spot you clicked and getting stuck on each other and watching your enemy's smaller air force destroy them effortlessly. : Granted, there are some of the drawbacks to giving them the ability to carry troops. But you would the same problem (latter problem) if you had a ton of normal transports trying to drop all their units off on the same spot. The delay/cost of building could be bit problematic, but I'm not suggesting something major in the cost difference, more like the penalty the Empire originally suffered in the pre-xpack game. The difference being that the Republic fighters would still be a lot more powerful individually than a number of the other civs, given their upgrades, and they'd still get the jedi starfighter for extra support. The major problem I could see would be vulnerability to AA. Even with shields, fighters tend to die easier to AA than air transports. But them's the breaks, I guess (of using the fighter gunship as the transport instead of making a seperate, more AA resistant gunship). If you have a small group of fighters who can carry troops then you risk the troops getting shot down before they can be deployed. On the other hand, if you can deploy efficiently, they can be quite valuable since they'd be able to cover their deployed units. It's simply a calculated risk... kinda like transporting any other troops... Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0RF Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 dude, you're arguing over the strategic qualities of a unit that doesn't exist. You are still a long way from convincing me that there is any benefit to having the gunship AS WELL AS the air units and the cr00zer and the starfighter for the Republic, or why it's worth taking the trouble of crippling or removing basic air units from a civ, or why someone should go to the trouble of piling on new UUs to the other civs just to create them. Rebuilding the World Trade Center as five buildings that looks like a giant bird flipping off the middle east is a great idea, but it's not very practical either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 Originally posted by W0RF dude, you're arguing over the strategic qualities of a unit that doesn't exist. You are still a long way from convincing me that there is any benefit to having the gunship AS WELL AS the air units and the cr00zer and the starfighter for the Republic, or why it's worth taking the trouble of crippling or removing basic air units from a civ, or why someone should go to the trouble of piling on new UUs to the other civs just to create them. Rebuilding the World Trade Center as five buildings that looks like a giant bird flipping off the middle east is a great idea, but it's not very practical either. Of course I'm arguing over the strategic qualities of a unit that doesn't exist. If a unit is going to be introduced into a strategy game then the way in which that unit can be utilized, and the exposure of it's strengths and weakness, have to be taken into account. As for the benefit, provided that everything can be balanced out, I consider a bit of diversity a benefit. If making adjustments to the carrying means of two units can affect the strategies people use in playing a particular Civ, then it's for the better. For that matter, I'm not suggesting removing basic air units from a civ, or even necessarily adding a new unit. Crippling them? Well if you consider a slight delay in the cost and/or build time crippling then I guess that your perogative. It never crippled me while using Empire air, and their air is far inferior to that of the Republic. As for limiting the carrying of units for air transports, I'm one of the people who believes that unit limitations should be globally placed on all tranports based the size of the units anyway. The Republic would just receive a harder blow for the base transport because they'd have another unit capability of carrying smaller units. Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eizo131 Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 Darth Windu- Fine 2 to 3 units is enough but Hinds carry six fully armed and ready infantry just to let you know I don't know who thought of the dumb Idea of making the gunship fire aircruiser shots but that ain't a good idea at ALL. the gunship should fire missles at air targets and canons at ground ones like in the movies. ( minus when they used missles to blow up the rocket ships ) ah hem This thread was made to discuss the gunship issue not WORF's IQ. I want a jedi starfighter and gunship smilie:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eizo131 Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 DMUK- could me make this a poll on the site? You know like the first page poll thing? plz? It's worth a try........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted August 21, 2002 Author Share Posted August 21, 2002 eizo - true, but then US assault helo's carry 12-14 fully armed troops, which is why the gunship would have a lower carrying ability. With the gunship, the reason that i want it in is that it is an essential piece of the republic army, and it is unique in that no other civ has anything like it. I really cannot see a problem with an armed transport that can carry infatry units, especially if the main transport is altered to compensate. Worf - remember that this idea is mainly for a possible SW:GB 2. The reason i say this is because of the current situation with the republic fighter, and the normal 1 UU. Hopefully in SW:GB 2 (if its made) there would be many UU's per side (like RoN) and the gunship would be able to included and balanced from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 Windu get ur own ideas i said that exact same phrase In my opinion, the gunship should only carry 2 or 3 infantry, while the Republic transport should be modified to the one shown in ep2 (carrying the AT-TE) with that only being able to carry 2 or 3 mechs, but greater speed and/or hitpoints. out of 32 votes inly 11 ppl wanted it as a second republic unique unit and a about the same amount of ppl voted for no gunship at all i was one of them the republkic is a good all rounder civ .if you gave them a hyped up transport with weapons you would have to take something away to balance it and regardless of what you took away it wouldn't be worth it the fast fighter in the game actually looks like the gunship the republic transport was around b4 the clone army ep 2 when padme and anakin went to naboo that was the republic transport. i hardly think a transport with weapons is a good idea maybe if a new unit was put into the game for all the civs like a landing craft it might work because your fanatic pleas for a gunship might come true but ...................it would mean that your insane idea of trying to make on of the most unique civs apart from the gungans more unique which would be next to impossible get some sense. windu not enuogh ppl want the gunship and in swgb 2 if it does come out each civ would have something like 4 unique units. and besides the republic wouldn't need the gunship their air cruisers with air cruiser boost researched means that what about 10 gunships could propably do in 5 minutes if they were playing against a stupid opponent would what an aircruiser could do in one blast if the gunship was in the game it should be treated like the a-wing and have to be researched but then how would they make it like the film where the gunship runs out of rockets quickly eh? if the gunship was in it should have 50 HP no sheilds {the republic should lose sheilds for fighhters any way and be 4 times faster} 4 attack points a rasnge of 5 and armor of 3 able to carry one scout 5 troops and troops on board should be healed because of the medic buil.t in to the gunship i'm glad everyone else sees sense in this thread because you would have to remove something of the republics to keep the game balanced or give each civ a resaerchable abilty for some of their units to make it balanced the empire would get something like TWin Ionised Engines upgrade making their fighters really fast like 8 times as fast confed would get Hailfire Driod Rebuild giving it the abilkty to fire at ground targets the TF would get something like upgraded Turrets which would give AAt's the abiltiy to fire at air targets like in the film the gungans would get a like Booma Enhancements which would give a small trooper bonus against some mechs the rebel allinace would get b-wing research meaning when completed they can build B-Wings and the wookies should get a tech level 2 upgrade of Honour Code which would be a cheap equivalent to jedi/sith purge but wookie units couldn't be converted at all and all the things i have suggested have roots from the films or books about the films and this is star wars more adavnced than a helicopter why are ppl comparing a unit that propably won't be put in swgb at all. oh yeah and what is a lambada shuttole they have good lasers sheilds and rockets a near equivalent of the gunship don't you think of course what i just said about the lambadda will be seen in episodes 7 8 and 9 and a tf C-9799 is a prettty near equivalent too so what are you saying about a unit that no civ in movie or game has. [/color] Watch the Films Read the Books Find the Truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 I am proposing something different, what if all the civs get some kind of gunship. It would be better that way(I think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eizo131 Posted August 23, 2002 Share Posted August 23, 2002 Windu- good point guy with the ewok avatar- NO WAY I don't everycivis something like an armed transport Ahem well I have said my opinion and thier are 12 people to back me up. right? gunship as UU is majarity by 2 good for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted August 23, 2002 Author Share Posted August 23, 2002 luke - the whole point about it being unique is that no-one else has it! With the gunship, it is unique, and should be therefore be a republic unique unit. While it may be a simple reason, it is also the best. Ask yourselves the question, 'why are the destroyer droid, probot, airspeeder etc unique units?' the answer of course is that no other civ has anything like it, and this is most certainly true of the gunship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0RF Posted August 23, 2002 Share Posted August 23, 2002 Windu - your initial post and subject header mentions nothing about SWGB2, nor do you mention it until like 20 posts down when you concede that LA may not add it this time around. Moreover, most people have been responding under the premise that the unit be included in GB. It's a little late to be assuming that everyone automatically knows whether you're talking add-on for GB or wish-list for GB2, especially since you've been framing most of your arguments around the specs of the AoK engine. eizo - I'm not going to explain majority and plurality again. Just scroll back 30 or 40 posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted August 24, 2002 Author Share Posted August 24, 2002 worf - the thing is, i want the gunship as a UU. Whether it is in GB or a possible GB2, i dont care, as long as it is a UU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 ok...it's a good idea windu the rebublic gunship 1 health 0 armor 1 damage can carry only one guy is a UU unit hey you said as long as it was in there you wouldnt mind:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simwiz2 Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 Originally posted by Tyrion ok...it's a good idea windu the rebublic gunship 1 health 0 armor 1 damage can carry only one guy is a UU unit hey you said as long as it was in there you wouldnt mind:D I bet it would be his favorite unit too. Then when he loses he would wonder why 250 gunships lost to only 20 fighters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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