Creationism vs Darwinism

[Pedantic]

Why can't evolution be true? The Second Law of Thermodynamics, that's why. Things never get better. They always get worse and more disordered.

 

Oh, and BTW, nowhere is it said that evolution is fact. It is a theory.

[Luc Solar]

LOL! Great link cjais, thanks!

 

 

Check it out!

 

A few excerpts:

 

God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). 1:3-5

 

God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. This firmament, if it existed, would have been quite an obstacle to our space program. 1:6-8

 

Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

 

"He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16

 

"And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." Really? Then why are only a tiny fraction of stars visible from earth? Under the best conditions, no more than five thousand stars are visible from earth with the unaided eye, yet there are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy and a hundred billion or so galaxies. Yet this verse says that God put the stars in the firmament "to give light" to the earth. 1:17

 

All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. But, of course, we now know that there were carnivorous animals millions of years before humans existed. 1:30

 

God makes the animals and parades them before Adam to see if any would strike his fancy. But none seem to have what it takes to please him. (Although he was tempted to go for the sheep.) After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-20

 

God's clever, talking serpent. 3:1

 

God walks and talks (to himself?) in the garden, and plays a little hide and seek with Adam and Eve. 3:8-11

 

God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they? 3:14

 

God curses the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. 3:17-18

 

God kills some animals and makes some skin coats for Adam and Eve

 

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Pedantic

The Second Law of Thermodynamics, that's why.

 

Eh?

 

I'd like to see that theory....

 

Glad you liked the link, Luc!

 

NeoDios:

 

May I present - GonkH8ter's post:

 

The world was created 4 billion or so years ago. The primordial world came about after matter swirled into a spherical shape. Silod matter formed, gases became the atmosphere. It was a stormy, watery, incredibly volcanic world, with electrical charges present from the large amount of lightning, different temperatures within the ocean and an environment full of the basic molecules that make up building blocks of life, so it wouldnt be hard for things to come about. Simple carbohydrates, water, proteins even, but most important of all, nucleic bases.

 

Purines and Pyramidines.

 

Chemically speaking, they arent very complex, and only a fairly simple seires of chemical reactions would need to take place for them to come about.

 

You've got your 5 carbon sugars floating round (Ribose and Deoxyribose)... Cross them with your base and youve got a nucleosides. DNA and RNA are both constructed from tri-phosphate nucleosides. Throw in some phosphates with your NS's and let it sit.

 

Give it some time (We're talking billions of years. Life didnt happen straight away), you've suddenly got a small string of nucleic acid.

 

What then you ask? A membrane just might form around this little glob of NA. You've pretty much got a Prokaryote at this point. A prokaryote is a cell (the other kind is eukaryote).

[griff38]

The 3 western religions, Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe that God existed. (THEN GOD MADE MAN). Hard to accept for the above average mind.

 

However, some Eastern religions believe if you think about god then he does exist. (THEN MAN MADE GOD).

 

In the west we greet by shaking hands, some parts of the east you put your palms together and bow. This is worshiping the God in You. YOU are God.

 

So, if you use the western version I don't believe in God, if you use the eastern version I believe in God.

[C'jais]

Man created God, very true.

 

Religion is a tool for those in power to use and abuse.

[TheWhiteRaider]

Originally posted by griff38

CJAIS I love you.

 

I have done it all, I was raises by devout christians so thats all I knew for many years. Eventually I discovered "Master Darwin" and many others who show more likely ways we could come into existance.

 

Remember good science does not deny the existance of a god.

(THE ABSCENCE OF EVIDENCE, IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSCENCE)

 

translated into redneck: (JUS CUZ YA CANT SEE IT DONT MEAN IT AINT THAR)

 

So I am in the Darwin camp, with respect to those who are still motivated by fear and worship a religion.

 

MORE TO COME.............................

 

It is not just a abscence of evidence. Every branch of science day by day is disproving evolution. In fact if you talk privately with most scienctist they will say that they would destroy the theory of evolution if it wasn't so popular. Also try this on for size. The earths magnetic field losses 3%-7% of its power each each 1,000 years due to wear and tear along with solar winds. Now if the earth was only 6,000-10,000 years old the field would be at

0.016(Repeating)% now take it if it was 1,000,000,000 years old. 1 X 10 to the -07th power. At that point it would not be in any place to protect us. And now try 15 billion.

 

Religion is a tool for those in power to use and abuse.

 

Oh realy? Communism was made as a anti-religion and yet it was used to control people. Goverment has been abused and yet we still have it. And here is a question if there is no god why must we obey the law? Religion may have had some bad uses in the past, but that doesn't mean that it is only useable in that way. And when was the last time a Christain used religion as power and control? (Other than Cathloc church. We have a different system.)

 

Hard to accept for the above average mind.

 

Hard to accept. HA. Hey I am about the average and yet I still accept it. In fact science goes to prove religion more and more, but evolutionist will not tell you about that. I wonder why.

[ET Warrior]

This firmament, if it existed, would have been quite an obstacle to our space program.

 

Now don't quote me, as i'm not an expert on this subject, but according ot the bible wasn't the great flood caused the the breaking of the firmament over earth and allowing the waters above to crash down, covering all the earth in water?

 

Tyrion, all your arguments in this entire debate have irritated me, not to sound incredibly rude....but all you say is "I could make something like the bible and say it's true" But do you think you could write a story that speaks so deeply to our souls that thousands of years later people will believe what you wrote and will be willing to live their lives by it? And not just a few people, millions and millions of people believe it. I dont think you could.

 

 

I still want to know why your christian god is the one god instead of the norse,greek,egyptian,isreal,jewish,and sumerian god(s).

Because that is what our religion tells us, and we believe in our religion, because we have faith. Why do you go to bed at night? What if the sun doesn't come up the next morning if you are sleeping? Because you have faith in the sun and it's consistancy. I follow what the bible tells me because i have faith in God and what he wants.

 

And to those who have said that our religion damns all those who don't follow it to hell, i don't believe that. I believe that my God is the one true God, but God also understands that there are people who have never been given the chance to know him and when they die he reveals himself to them and tells them that he is the one true God and if they want to follow him they can join him in heaven. I will never regret having spent my time devoted to God, it gives meaning and purpose to my life.

[mswanmmiv]

I did not read everything that was posted, but I will say this... I live by faith, and I don't need to explain this to anyone. I believe, no I know, that God, the one and only, created the world through his divine will. He created science, but humans have warped it to tell them what they want to hear. If you look into the Bible deeply, then you would realize that it doesn't matter how it was created, that is a basic spiritual understanding. The point of the Bible is not to get people caught up in this, but to present the love of God and Jesus Christ to all men.

[TheWhiteRaider]

Also would you like me to tell about the complexity of the bible.

 

Age

 

The age of the books Bible can be told by what is in it. The old testiment told about Nebuchadnezzar. Evolutionist said "We have not seen and histroy books or ruins dug up that talk about him so he could have not exsisted." Well not to long after there was a ruin dug up that had over one thousand artifacts that told of king Nebuchadnezzar. So we know that the last books or the old testiment were writen long before the Roman,Medo-Persin, or Greek empires.

 

I can dig up more if you guys want. I will be happy to.

 

I still want to know why your christian god is the one god instead of the norse,greek,egyptian,isreal,jewish,and sumerian god(s).

 

The Jewish God is our God. The Jews were the people which God set aside so that Jesus could come from them. In fact the

old-testiment is the Jewish writings.

[GonkH8er]

Originally posted by Rogue15

Maybe God wanted something to please/worship/praise Him?

 

 

Am I the only one who finds this....... odd? searching for a better word. maybe someone could help me out.

[TheWhiteRaider]

Originally posted by GonkH8er

 

 

Am I the only one who finds this....... odd? searching for a better word. maybe someone could help me out.

 

Hey how would you know. And if you are talking about a four letter word I could say the same about your baseless theory.

[GonkH8er]

Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider

 

Hey how would you know if that statement. And if you are talking about a four letter word I could say the same about your baseless theory.

 

Apart from the difficulty I had in understanding your post, I'd like to inform you that I dont have to resort to certain 4 letter words to get my points across.

 

I was thinking more like.... selfish? greedy? something along those lines.

 

 

And I think that you'll find my theory isn't baseless. In fact, it has a whole lot of base. Maybe you should go read up on evolutionary theory.

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider

The Jewish God is our God. The Jews were the people which God set aside so that Jesus could come from them. In fact the

old-testiment is the Jewish writings.

 

That still doesnt explain the others(And faith gives no truth to christianity,though).

 

Edit- I will go on,but let's just look at this.

 

We cant win. Nether of us have enough overwhelming proof to unprove the other. We cannot say there is no god, but they cant say there is a god or evolution is not real.It is mindless arguing.

 

Still,it's great fun!

[TheWhiteRaider]

Originally posted by Tyrion

 

That still doesnt explain the others(And faith gives no truth to christianity,though).

 

Edit- I will go on,but let's just look at this.

 

We cant win. Nether of us have enough overwhelming proof to unprove the other. We cannot say there is no god, but they cant say there is a god or evolution is not real.It is mindless arguing.

 

Still,it's great fun!

 

That may change with time. Though it is fun I do agree. Though it is not mindless.

 

For the most part I am fighting evolution on science not faith(Though a bit does get in here and there) so I am useing math, physics, chemistry, and others to prove my case. The thing with evolution is that it is a ince thought, but nothing to back it up. You come up with a complex system and can't even prove step one. I here how it so called "Happened", but no science to back it up. In fact no one in this thread has told me any proof yet.

 

A note for furture arguments. Don't explain theory I know it. Explain proof.

[TheWhiteRaider]

Originally posted by GonkH8er

 

Apart from the difficulty I had in understanding your post, I'd like to inform you that I dont have to resort to certain 4 letter words to get my points across.

 

I was thinking more like.... selfish? greedy? something along those lines.

 

 

And I think that you'll find my theory isn't baseless. In fact, it has a whole lot of base. Maybe you should go read up on evolutionary theory.

 

Sorry about the grammar.

 

Ok what is the base then?

Oh and I have read it I used to believe that stuff. And I own all of Darwin's books.

[Tyrion]

Well here's something.

 

There is possibly an infinite amount of planets in existance. So, let's say the chance of human life(Environment/chemicals) is 1 in a 100000000000000000000000000000000000000. But,since there are infinite amount of planet/solar systems, it is plausible that it the chance happend. And we,incidently, are the product. Since it had infinite chances, it is made. Since anything sort of infinte can be made with infinite chances.

 

 

(although the debate of wether or not there are infinite planets/solar systems is another debate intirely).

[TheWhiteRaider]

Since it had infinite chances, it is made. Since anything sort of infinte can be made with infinite chances.

 

There are no infinite chances just low, average, or high ones.

 

 

Try this how do you move forward in time with out a starting point? A line can go on forever a two dirrection, but how do you go forward on a line without a point to start with? Can you walk forward on a rail road track without starting from a point on that track?

 

Think about it.

 

Possible or not? I think not.

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider

 

There are no infinite chances just low, average, or high ones.

 

 

Try this how do you move forward in time with out a starting point? A line can go on forever a two dirrection, but how do you go forward on a line without a point to start with? Can you walk forward on a rail road track without starting from a point on that track?

 

Think about it.

 

Possible or not? I think not.

'

 

Then how can something make itself out of nothing? Where did god start from?

 

And dont give me that "outside of time" bull****.

[TheWhiteRaider]

Originally posted by Tyrion

'

 

Then how can something make itself out of nothing? Where did god start from?

 

And dont give me that "outside of time" bull****.

 

Strange the how can something make itself out of nothing tends to go against Darwinist as you need it to have your theory work even start to work.

 

Outside of time is where. It is outside of our understanding. That is the best I can tell you.

[GonkH8er]

Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider

 

There are no infinite chances just low, average, or high ones.

 

 

Try this how do you move forward in time with out a starting point? A line can go on forever a two dirrection, but how do you go forward on a line without a point to start with? Can you walk forward on a rail road track without starting from a point on that track?

 

Think about it.

 

Possible or not? I think not.

 

 

That's assuming time is a constant that we are moving along, rather than we being the constant and time changing.

 

I find the existence of a supreme being watching over everything without making himself known much less plausible than the idea that time has been around forever, and will continue to exist.

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider

 

Strange the how can something make itself out of nothing tends to go against Darwinist as you need it to have your theory work even start to work.

 

Outside of time is where. It is outside of our understanding. That is the best I can tell you.

 

Maybe evolution is out of our understanding too?

[TheWhiteRaider]

Originally posted by GonkH8er

 

 

That's assuming time is a constant that we are moving along, rather than we being the constant and time changing.

 

I find the existence of a supreme being watching over everything without making himself known much less plausible than the idea that time has been around forever, and will continue to exist.

 

 

Hey at least it can make sense.

 

There are 5 know dimentions in this world and 1 more in theory.

 

Space,Time, Lenth, Width, and Hight.

 

1 in theory is Spirit.

 

You know atoms are there though you can't see them with the unaided eyes. You know micro-animals are there, but you can't see them either. So God can be looking you in the face and yet you can't see him with your eyes.

[GonkH8er]

Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider

 

 

Hey at least it can make sense.

 

There are 5 know dimentions in this world and 1 more in theory.

 

Space,Time, Lenth, Width, and Hight.

 

1 in theory is Spirit.

 

You know atoms are there though you can't see them with the unaided eyes. You know micro-animals are there, but you can't see them either. So God can be looking you in the face and yet you can't see him with your eyes.

 

 

Afaik, space isnt a dimension.... space consists of the 1st 3 dimensions....

 

 

We all know the quote "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making the world believe he didnt exist"

 

Why would a loving god hide himself in the same way?

[TheWhiteRaider]

Originally posted by GonkH8er

 

 

Afaik, space isnt a dimension.... space consists of the 1st 3 dimensions....

 

 

We all know the quote "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making the world believe he didnt exist"

 

Why would a loving god hide himself in the same way?

 

First when I say space I mean stuff Like matter. Many people called it that.

 

Maby even if he did you would still doubt him. I may not know. Also you might light up like a Christmas tree if you saw him.

 

I know of a lady who wanted to ban guns even after a gun saved her life.

[Eldritch]

Oooh boy. Here we go. I knew someone would eventually bring this argument into the Swamp, so it's time for me to weigh in with my thoughts.

 

First, let me preface everything by saying that the reason we have developed science and religion (yes, religions have evolved too... they weren't always exactly as they are now) was to explain all sorts of things we observed in our lives. So you might say that the goal of science and religion is to find the "truth." To discredit or disbelieve (or believe) anything without first examining it is counter-productive. Let me also say that I am neither a scientologist (person who believes in science as a sort of religion) or a religious person. I consider myself a spiritual person - I think the way to live is to be the best person I can be... if I do that, I will have a rewarding life (and possible afterlife).

 

However, there are certain things that have been said in this thread that are incorrect or have been misrepresented that should be cleared up.

 

1) Science acknowledges, accepts, and respects Creationism as a official theory of how we got here. Scientists themselves have their own individual opinions, but don't let them give you the image that Science thinks Creationism is false, because to not accept Creationism is to deny a possibility, and that would limit the search for "truth." Strange that [most] Religion does not accept Scientific Theory, but Religion deals with Beliefs (which are hard to change) while Science deals with Ideas (which are easy to change).

 

2) I've seen quite a butchering of scientific ideas in this thread... many people do not have all the facts. The most frequent one that I see has to do with Carbon-14. Carbon-14 is NOT used to date very old things, because it's half-life is far too short to date things that are millions or billions of years old. Carbon dating is used for things that are within 30,000 years old - mostly for archeological digs of our ancestors, not dinosaurs or really old artifacts. Different elements are used depending on how old they think the item is and what elements it contains. So long as there is a sufficient amount of the element, you can test it because the half-lives of elements do not change. What can screw up tests is if more of the element of a different age was introduced (due to volcanic eruption, for example).

Spontaneous Generation (i.e. the "life from nothing" theory) is another one that got knocked a lot. There are many theories on how it could've happened, and Religion is the first to knock it because it threatens them. I won't go into all the different theories about it, but someone wondered how you could get proteins out of it. To this person, I suggest they read a book on organic chemistry. There are many different kinds of proteins that can be created using only the most basic of the elements.

I think that if you're going to knock this theory, you should at least learn about it first, and not discredit it immediately because it contradicts your Religion. I'm not saying you have to believe it, but how can you say something's wrong if you don't know about it? It's like saying you don't like something before you've tried it.

 

3) Darwin, Darwin, Darwin. One person in particular keeps saying that he "recanted on his deathbed." I think you're misinterpreting what you've heard (I doubt you've actually read the books on him). If you can tell me where I can read your words, i'll check it out. However, I do know that at the time Darwin died, he believed in his theory (and he wasn't even the first one to come up with it) but could not prove it with the current technology. He was a scientist, and he knew better than to say something was true without proving it and testing it. So when you say "he even said it wasn't true," you're interpreting the part where he says, "I can't prove it to be true." There's a big difference.

 

4) The Big Bang. Someone mentioned a continuous flow of expansion/contraction over and over again, so there's no need for a "God" who started it all, right? Well, that fits with the old information we had that has to do with the gravity of the universe... eventually it would expand to a certain (large) size, couldn't support itself, and would begin contraction back into itself. But as Science has a way of doing, new information has come in that now states that the expansion of the universe is speeding up, not slowing down as was previously thought. What this translates to is the fact that it most likely will never get so heavy that it contracts upon itself.

 

5) It's not a scientific idea, but I want to comment on it anyway. Someone said, "...a story [the Bible] that speaks so deeply to our souls that thousands of years later people will believe what you wrote and will be willing to live their lives by it?" First of all, Christianity is one of the youngest religions, being around just about 2,000 years. Second, the Jewish people that you've adapted your religion from don't even accept you, and believe that you [the Christians] will not enter heaven (the Jews don't believe in hell, it's a Christian concept) because you believe and practice the wrong faith. Christianity tells us that those who do not worship or believe in [the Christian] God are going to hell. This I find absolutely crazy. What about all the really good, kind people that aren't (or weren't) Christian, like Ghandi? Do you honestly believe they go to hell when they die? If you don't, you've already questioned your faith. My point is this: Religion and its followers have a way of selecting what things they want to believe and condemning others. Christianity especially has evolved to accept several different scientific ideas over the years... it just takes a really long time for the Church to get around to it.

 

I'm tired, so i'm going to wrap it up for tonight, but in closing, I wonder why everyone feels compelled to say, "I'm right, you're wrong" and then try and back it up with proof? Why not just say, like I do, that anything is a possibility and that eventually it all comes down to faith (either in Science or Religion)? I can't prove The Big Bang occured anymore than a Religious person can prove that God exists - it's all faith.

 

There shouldn't be a right or wrong in this debate... there should only be an exchange of ideas. Stop trying to change peoples beliefs, and stop pointing out inconsistancies, because there's PLENTY for both Science and Religion.

 

[EDIT]

Originally posted by TheWhiteRaider

Hey at least it can make sense.

 

There are 5 know dimentions in this world and 1 more in theory.

 

Space,Time, Lenth, Width, and Hight.

 

1 in theory is Spirit.

 

Einstein said that Space and Time are one and the same. Ever heard of Space-time (If you're a Sci-Fi fan, i'm sure you have)? He also said Matter and Energy were one and the same (he called that Matter-energy... inventive, huh?). Einstein was also a strong believer in God... can you believe that? A religious scientist? Marrying the best ideas of science and religion to try and explain the world around him? Perhaps it's something we all should aspire to be, but most religious people are notoriously close-minded (something that, strangely enough, their religions preach against).

[/EDIT]