TTT criticism / questions / reviews

[SettingShadow]

Originally posted by Cjais

Notice when Saruman says "the union of the two towers", the camera pans first over the tower of Isengaard, then we switch to see Sauron's black citadel, which is also a tower (the one with his eye above it).

 

I believe those are the towers mentioned.

 

Hmmmmm.... I gotta check that, because I dont think those are the two towers, cause on the book cover, its a pic with Frodo, Sam, Gollum, some red riders, and Two Towers. And of course this is in Mordor.

[Pad]

Originally posted by Cjais

Notice when Saruman says "the union of the two towers", the camera pans first over the tower of Isengaard, then we switch to see Sauron's black citadel, which is also a tower (the one with his eye above it).

 

I believe those are the towers mentioned.

 

very true my friend. its about the orthanc (sarumanùs tower) and the tower of barad-dûr (saurons´s tower)

 

and i said i could tell u how the altered scenes were. i didnt say i knew why PJ altered all those scenes.

but heres my guess:

 

- eomer was not banned from edoras

maybe done for the helm´s deep part as they rode down the mountain and came to theoden´s rescue. (also see next quote)

- it was aragorn and eomer who were fightin in front of helm´s deep gate instead of aragorn

as eomer wasnt there, it was good to add gimli and his "toss me" line as a nice blink to the first movie. (also see above quote)

- there were no elvs at helm´s deep

actually there were much more rohan ppl in the castle but adding elves would be a link to the great battle where men and elves fought and it was still not forgotten.

- aragorn fallin from the cliff and the arwen part never happend

a very nice scene as it shows arwen in agony as she needs to choose between leavin for the grey plains (from where u never come back) or stayin at middle earth. all will be explained (i believe) when u see ROTK. (i could explain more but that would give a bit too much away )

- faromir???? he was brave and honest and had no need of the ring but they made him like a little kid who is only after the ring

i heared from ppl they found a too nice fella so PJ and script writers changed his role a bit, which imo wasnt a good thing. (only bad call PJ made)

 

and as for the other scenes i said, i have no clue.

[Arc Hammer]

Originally posted by Haemon

-=**There are no two towers**=-

 

Thats all fine and dandy if they didn't put them in but then why is it called "The Two Towers" if there are no two towers. [/b]

 

http://www.apple.com/trailers/newline/the_two_towers-teaser/

 

Listen to that trailer, it mentions the two towers in it.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by kstar__2

alrighty, i'm still reading the book, but one part of the movie bothered me: the part where sam and frodo are in the cave behind the waterfall, you can just see they edited them in, the lightning was all messed up, and they dah lines around them, it really demolished the scene

 

Odd that was the part that bothered you, because i LOVED that scene. Mostly because it was EXACTLY how i pictured it in my mind, it was like takin a snapshot of my imagination and putting it on film.

 

Was nobody else disappointed that fangorn didn't move behind the uruk-hai in the battle of helms deep? That was my very favorite part of the book, and i didn't even get to see it.

[Pad]

yea, u see em runnin and if u dont know what happend u think they r runnin back to isengard or to mordor. but they were actually killed by the ents.

 

and the cave scene kstar, was exactly as told in the books.

 

i also wanted to see the the voice of saruman and the palantir in the TTT but, o well, it´ll be in ROTK (kickass)

[Jo]

i have read and seen the fellowship, and ive seen and am reading the two towers...im only on Helm's Deep in the book...and as far as i can tell there have only been three chapter in this book that i reconized from the movie..ill get back to you in better detail about it when i finish TTT...i cant wait to get, start, and finish ROTK

[Ratmjedi]

I also was wondering. Isn't there a scene were I think it is Pippin or Merry that takes the Sphere that Sauramon uses to communicate with Sauron and uses it or is that in ROTK?

 

I also did want to see the Fangorn Forrest go over to Helm's Deep and block the Orc's and Urah-Kai.

 

[Pad]

Originally posted by Ratmjedi

I also was wondering. Isn't there a scene were I think it is Pippin or Merry that takes the Sphere that Sauramon uses to communicate with Sauron and uses it or is that in ROTK?

no its not in ROTK but in TTT. its the palantir scene i was talkin about earlier. but PJ moved it to ROTK

 

 

***WARNING, TTT (book) - ROTK (movie) spoiler***

 

the palantir scene is after theoden,aragorn,... went to saruman. grima/wormtongue threw it at them and gandalf took i it. pippin eagerly wanted to now what i was and gets seen by sauron. gandalf takes him to gondor and thats normally the part where TTT ends.

 

[SettingShadow]

Originally posted by Padanime

no its not in ROTK but in TTT. its the palantir scene i was talkin about earlier. but PJ moved it to ROTK

 

 

***WARNING, TTT (book) - ROTK (movie) spoiler***

 

the palantir scene is after theoden,aragorn,... went to saruman. grima/wormtongue threw it at them and gandalf took i it. pippin eagerly wanted to now what i was and gets seen by sauron. gandalf takes him to gondor and thats normally the part where TTT ends.

 

Gotta disagree about your spoiler.

 

 

yes Grima throw it, but it wernt Gandalf who took it up first, but Pippin did it, then Gandalf took it from him, and the rest was correct.

 

[thehomicidalegg]

The aragorn-being-thrown-off-cliff scenes are added, i think, as padanime said, to link up with all the arwen subplots upon which PJ has placed greater signifacance. It was through the dreams/visions the story mentioned only in the appendix of the book can be told, giving the non-tolkien-fans a better understanding of the story. Also the "love-triangle" was spiced up a bit to dramatise the story, with influence of the pop culture, so that the movie may attact more audience, create more fans, and more $$$$$$

 

I didn't like the way they altered Faramir either, as in the book, he was portrayed along with Eomer, of having the purest virtues, and a contrast to boromire. But this is a movie, a shorter form of media and with greater emphasis on drama... so PJ changed the story to increase the tension and drama, and sacrificed faramir to do it. For non-tolkien-fans, this may be more interesting, and PJ might also want to emphasize the power/danger of the one ring. Faramir's character will change in the RotK, as indicated at the end of the movie.

[BCanr2d2]

It will be interesting to see how the movie gels together if, or most likely, when the Extended edition is released. How will some of our thoughts upon certain scenes be changed if we see some relatively small things shown....

 

There are things that maybe skipped over, even if they need to be explained for ROTK, that for the average Joe won't make any sense being in the movie without plenty of dialogue....

 

Squatter,

 

I see where you mean in the books, the War of the Ring is a little further developed before ROTK starts. I think for cinematic purposes, and for the length of ROTK, it needs some of what is considered TTT stuff. To go to the end of TTT, and have Frodo being taken away is the ultimate climax, but by this time the armies are starting to be amassed and heading off to the Black Gates of Mordor....

 

To me, it makes sense to keep the build up to the final battle as one, and not make it part of TTT. No doubt the Palantir scene will be near the start of the ROTK, as well as the entry into Mordor by the Ringbearer.

 

It will be interesting to see if we get an Epilogue to ROTK, to show some of what happened after the War of the Ring. With the expanded role of Arwen, perhaps this is in PJ's mind.....

[Woodrodius]

What I disagree with about Peter Jacksons version of The Two Towers most is the arrival of Elves at Helm's deep. The entire point of LOTR was that this huge problem was left in the hands of men, to see if they were worthy to be the successors of middle earth. In the book, Eomer was at Helms deep the whole time, he was never banished. The turning point at helms deep came when the ents, lead by Gandalf, took up position behind the Orcs in the form of what appeared to be a giant forest. The orcs, overwhelmed by this mysterious forest forming behind them retreated into it, and never left the forest.

What pisses me off the most is that they add more ad-libbed crap then real stuff that they cut out, and then talk about in tyhe interviews how they've tried so painstakenly to be accurate to Tolkiens novel. One or the other Jackson. When you start completely undermining huge parts of the story, and even KILL OFF a character that survived in the book, (The elf that greeted the fellowship in Lorien, whose name escapes me) you can't rightly claim that your staying true to the novel. The fellowship wasn't too bad, though even its fallacies urked me. The Two towers left me just chapped. At this rate the Rock will make his appearance in Return of the King.

[Darth Simpson]

The elf was Haldir.

 

What annoyed me the most with TTT was Faramir, no doubt. He was supposed to be different from Boromir in Tolkien's vision, not wanting the ring. Kind of pissed me off that they made him this power-hungry Boromir clone.

[Breton]

Firstly, I should tell you all that the two towers are not Orthanc and Barad-Dur, it's Orthanc and Minas Morgul! You see, at the front cover of my TTT book, it is a painting/drawing based on an unused sketch made by Tolkien himself. It shows the One Ring above Mount Doom, flanked by the towers of Minas Morgul and Orthanc, while above it flies a Nazgul. The tengwar inscription in the centre reads, 'In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie'. At the base of Minas Morgul are the nine rings of the Ringwraiths, while above it a cresent moon hints at the earlier name of the tower, Minas Ithil, Tower of the Moon, before it was taken and defiled by Sauron's forces. Above and beneath Orthanc, a wizard's pentacle and a white hand symbolize the influence of Saruman the Wise.

 

The turning point at helms deep came when the ents, lead by Gandalf, took up position behind the Orcs in the form of what appeared to be a giant forest. The orcs, overwhelmed by this mysterious forest forming behind them retreated into it, and never left the forest.

 

Not ents, huorns!

[thehomicidalegg]

they didnt depict huorns prooly because:

a/ there's not enough time to introduce them

b/ the cgi are not good enough to depict them as PJ wished, and nothing can create the atmosphere which they brought to the books

[BCanr2d2]

Has any one read the Tolkein book "War of The Ring"? After reading some of "Unfinished Tales" I see that PJ might be using some of the unfinished work of Tolkein, which itself actually contradicts the books in some places.

 

Only one of the backstories actually has Gollum making his way to Moria, since he was being chased by the Ringwraiths....

 

I think in some of his adaptation, he has used the alternative text provided by Tolkein himself, and changed the story using it.

 

As for TTT, it is always in my mind to be insinuating Orthanc and Barad-Dur, never Minas Morgul. It is not Saruman and the Ringwraiths that are in together, it is Sauron and Saruman.....

[Qui-GONE Jinn]

Somehow... even though I have read LotR five times, though it's a very long time since I last read it now... I imagined The Two Towers to be a symbol of the "friction" between Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul...

 

How could this have been...

[Pad]

Originally posted by Qui-GONE Jinn

Somehow... even though I have read LotR five times, though it's a very long time since I last read it now... I imagined The Two Towers to be a symbol of the "friction" between Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul...

 

How could this have been...

 

it could be as never in the book u can find what the two towers symbolism. maybe PJ found it somewhere in the appendices or other books, or maybe he just thought it referred to saruman - sauron.

[Agen]

long time since i read the lord of the rings but i was sure that most of the times when they were gonig through the marshes it was night time or maybe i just imagined it like that.

[Jo]

im right in the middle of the huge three book lotr book, you know with all three together, and so far it rules, i think PJ changed and left out way to much....what the should have done is books, you know have fotr:part 1,then part 2 then ttt: part 1, part2,and so on...at least as seperated movies you could see more...

[Pad]

Originally posted by Agen_Terminator

long time since i read the lord of the rings but i was sure that most of the times when they were gonig through the marshes it was night time or maybe i just imagined it like that.

true, they mostly travelled by night as gollum couldnt bare sunlight.

 

 

and masterjo, i think PJ did a fine job makein those movies. there was just too much info in the books to let it all be in the movie.

[Jo]

its not that i didn't like his work, the movie was great...i think he could have/should have put different things in...like he should have left arwen out and put in the part bout the ents at helms deep..that would have been sweet..and he should have added the part about sauraman at the edge of the woods...

[Pad]

Originally posted by Masterjo2588

like he should have left arwen

if u read the book even further, ull know why that part was put in

 

and i think the saruman/palantir scene will be good scene to begin ROTK

[Lost Welshman]

When I saw this film I was thinking it would have lots of boring bits and when I saw it I was very shocked that there was none.

I thought Gollum was very funny, I have only read the Hobbit and that was ages ago, and Gollum was not at all how I pictured him so I was a bit dissapointed,

Gimli was hilarious and that tree beard had some funny moments. On that bit when Aragorn throws Gimli to the bridge I thought it was so cool seeing the two just hacking and slashing the orcs.

.

[teleguy]

Originally posted by Padanime

it could be as never in the book u can find what the two towers symbolism. maybe PJ found it somewhere in the appendices or other books, or maybe he just thought it referred to saruman - sauron.

 

Here's some more info on the title, including Tolkien's own thoughts:

 

Q: Should be a simple one—which are the two towers implied by The Two Towers? I've seen just about ALL the possible towers, including Barad-dûr, Orthanc, Minas Tirith, and Minas Morgul (occasionally, I've even seen somebody try and suggest Helm's Deep!)

 

–Brian Gilkison

 

A: Look on the last page of The Fellowship of the Ring:

 

Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring.

 

The second part is called The Two Towers, since the events recounted in it are dominated by Orthanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of Minas Morgul that guards the secret entrance to Mordor…

 

I have seen arguments against this text, saying that the Professor did not write them and they were actually inserted by the publisher, Allen & Unwin. Indeed, remember that The Lord of the Rings was not originally meant to be a trilogy of three volumes but rather a compilation of Six Books. It was Tolkien’s publisher who decided on a "more convenient" number of three separate volumes and then requested new names for them. Tolkien was unhappy with this but under a deadline pressure came up with the names as we have them now.

 

By looking in the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien you can learn much more about his personal thoughts on this:

 

"The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 & 4; and can be left ambiguous—it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dûr, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol (1)." [Letter #140]

The footnote (1) to this letter reads:

 

"In a subsequent letter to Ranyer Unwin (#143), Tolkien is more definite that the Two Towers are ‘Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol’. On the other hand, in his original design for the jacket of The Two Towers (see #151) the Towers are certainly Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Orthanc is shown as a black tower, three-horned (as seen in Pictures no. 27), and with the sign of the White Hand beside it; Minas Morgul is a white tower, with a thin waning moon above it, in reference to its original name, Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon (FotR p. 257). Between the two towers a Nazgûl flies."

There is another letter I found, stating:

 

"I am not at all happy about the title The Two Towers. It must, if there is any real reference in it to Vol. II, refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading." [Letter #143]

So there you have it. My personal belief, if you will indulge me, is that the title makes a connection between the two structures that have the greatest impact on the main characters. Or rather, the powers within those structures. In Book Three we have Théoden and Gandalf vying against the power of Orthanc. In Book Four, Frodo and Sam find that their path ultimately leads to the Haunted Pass and Minas Morgul, where Frodo comes within a hair's breadth of being captured by the Witch-king (remember, we don’t really see events inside the Tower of Cirith Ungol until The Return of the King, so that doesn’t count here).

 

–Quickbeam