ZBomber Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by Tyrion Not Christian. Believe in God. Evolutionist. (Thusly,no.) Well, I believe in evoluton, not the big bang. I believe God made everything, but not in the "Big Bang" I believe that Adam are Eve are used for symbolism, anf they were never real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Break_dF Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by BlackDove Exactly. Now if I said the rest the topic would be closed AmEn-HallaJewYah-PrAAAze-Gawddd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by Darklighter Just looking at the world today, and seeing what it has become, and seeing how much death and suffering there is in our everyday lives, my faith has been reduced to nearly nothing. Why should we thank 'God' for everything we have and how lucky we are, when there are millions of people starving in 3rd world countires? If we do have a good, he is a merciless one... Yes....agreed....there is a lot of suffering in the world..so many people suffering, and yet, God has given countries like the United States the money and funds and capabilities to very nearly end the starvation in other countries....and what have we done with it? We build bombs and weapons of destruction. We have a huge surplus of foods every year, but nearly none of it gets sent to those starving children, or even to the starving people in our own country. Or look at Iraq, they have starving people in Iraq, but what are they spending all their money on? Scientists to develop weapons of mass destruction. God has given us the means, it's up to us to actually use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTeddyPaul Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by Datheus Who knows how much of the bible is how it used to be. Not to mention the bible was written a few hundred years after Jesus... Not to mention that a fair deal of the old testament appears to ripped from the Babaloynians... B] Also do not forget that the Bible as we know it today is not how it has always been in the past. I forgot what the "convention" was called but many of the most versed/read scholars on the Bible got together and voted on what the Bible should be comprised up of. They then looked at all the available books and voted them in or out. Some books were not included due to religious inaccuracies or that it didn't contribute anything spiritually. Such examples of books that people used to believe were part of the Bible were the Books of Maccabees, Books of Esdras, Tobit, Ecclesciasticus or The Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach, Baruch, Daniel, Bel, and the Snake, and The Prayer of Manasseh are just a few books not to make it in to the current 66 chapter Bible. This is all just food for thought and there is more I could say but I do not want to take up a whole page on a thread to say it. So in conclusion is the Bible really the true Bible? Sure most Christians believe that God used men to write books of the Bible but did he also use that convention of men to put the True works in and keep the UnGodWrtitten (<-- Stupid Moment) ones out. BigTeddyPaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff38 Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by Break_dF You sir, are wrong. Faith is what gets you up in the morning. Without it, you are nothing. This fabricated feeling of "faith" is the single most influencial human emotion existant. Faith is not just a word associated with religion. For you and most maybe, but for some and me it does not work. It really never has worked at all. Now don't be like most and get faith and hope confused. I have lots of hope. Hope is what gets you up in the morning, remember hope is the only thing you have left in the box. ET Warrior 5 stars Darklighter 5 stars BigTeddyPaul 5 stars Datheus 5 stars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 How do you know the earth is not flat? Hope? Belief? Faith? Fact? - Which one is correct? Do you believe plants are growing? Or is it fact? Do plants stop growing if a person won't believe they do? Let's return to the Box-example. Now, we have the cult of the unlighted lamp, and the cult of the lighted lamp, and the people in the middle who say you can't know for sure whether the lamp is on or off. The cult of the lighted lamp, in an effort to gain more believers to their idea that the lamp is lighted, has constructed some parameters: If there's a person in the Box by the name of John, the lamp is on. If there are more than 2 persons in the box, the lamp is on. If the people in the box all have 2 hands, 2 feet and 1 head, the lamp is on. As you can see, there's a pretty good chance that a person inside the box goes by the name of John, that there are more than 2 persons in the box, and that there aren't any hideous mutants in the box. This means the lamp outside must be on, no? (Naturally, the cult of the unlighted lamp also created such parameters) Are these parameters evidence enough? Absolutely not, say the persons who believe one cannot know for sure if the lamp is lighted - until the lamp itself is brought inside the box, both cults are equally silly and stupid. But the interesting bit, is that even if the lamp was brought inside the box, those parameters would still not be evidence for anything. They were constructed by persons who couldn't know anything for sure, in an attempt to attract followers who could easily see that the "evidence" was true, was there for the eyes to see. Return tomorrow, for the next piece of the box story titled: "The cult of the red lighted lamp goes to war on the cult of the green lighted lamp"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Break_dF Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by griff38 For you and most maybe, but for some and me it does not work. It really never has worked at all. Now don't be like most and get faith and hope confused. I have lots of hope. Hope is what gets you up in the morning, remember hope is the only thing you have left in the box. ET Warrior 5 stars Darklighter 5 stars BigTeddyPaul 5 stars Datheus 5 stars I'm not confusing hope and faith. You're associating faith w/ religion. What you believe in is what you have faith in. If you know emotion, you know faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Break_dF Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by Cjais How do you know the earth is not flat? Hope? Belief? Faith? Fact? - Which one is correct? Do you believe plants are growing? Or is it fact? Do plants stop growing if a person won't believe they do? Let's return to the Box-example. Now, we have the cult of the unlighted lamp, and the cult of the lighted lamp, and the people in the middle who say you can't know for sure whether the lamp is on or off. The cult of the lighted lamp, in an effort to gain more believers to their idea that the lamp is lighted, has constructed some parameters: If there's a person in the Box by the name of John, the lamp is on. If there are more than 2 persons in the box, the lamp is on. If the people in the box all have 2 hands, 2 feet and 1 head, the lamp is on. As you can see, there's a pretty good chance that a person inside the box goes by the name of John, that there are more than 2 persons in the box, and that there aren't any hideous mutants in the box. This means the lamp outside must be on, no? (Naturally, the cult of the unlighted lamp also created such parameters) Are these parameters evidence enough? Absolutely not, say the persons who believe one cannot know for sure if the lamp is lighted - until the lamp itself is brought inside the box, both cults are equally silly and stupid. But the interesting bit, is that even if the lamp was brought inside the box, those parameters would still not be evidence for anything. They were constructed by persons who couldn't know anything for sure, in an attempt to attract followers who could easily see that the "evidence" was true, was there for the eyes to see. Return tomorrow, for the next piece of the box story titled: "The cult of the red lighted lamp goes to war on the cult of the green lighted lamp"... You argue the obvious. If you were one of the first men to walk erect and give reason to something greater than yourself, which route would you take? I'm guessing the route would be that which is easiest to explain. Don't pass off past civilizations as bumbling idiots, they only sought the truth-much like you and I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyOneCanoli Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Good posts, cjais, you summarize my beliefs pretty well. I'm agnostic, but it seems that I lean a bit more towards atheism. I try to look at things logically, but with an open mind. It's worked so far for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by Break_dF You argue the obvious. I'm only trying. If everyone accepted the obvious, there'd be no need for me to argue it. If you were one of the first men to walk erect and give reason to something greater than yourself, which route would you take? I'm guessing the route would be that which is easiest to explain. But of course. I'm not attacking anyone here. The question which is easy to ask is: Why do we need to give reason, or even believe in something greater than ourselves? For the box-folk, perhaps they were tested on a daily basis, and if they could somehow convince themselves and those around them the lamp was on (or off), then they'd be better off? Which is why they started making up parameters and "evidence" for that. Don't pass off past civilizations as bumbling idiots, they only sought the truth-much like you and I. The truth is unattainable. Notice that the people in the box who believe that you can't tell whether the lamp is on or off, are no more right than two "cults". They're all wrong, because there is not sufficient evidence. Both extremes have unwarranted evidence, or unwarranted knowledge. It is the group that is least wrong I prefer to be in. And that group is clearly the persons who can't tell whether the lamp is on or off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by OnlyOneCanoli It's worked so far for me. Good point. While the cults of the lamp in the box spend most of their lives debating this matter, the group in the middle are content with the idea that they're on the most safe side, because they're the least wrong. They don't care about whether the freakin' lamp is on or off, because it frankly doesn't matter to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12345678 Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 voted no. i respect christianity for its primary role in western civilization, and respect christ's legacy as the most important any man has left the world, but i dont believe in a higher power outside of what may exist in our collective unconscious.i dont respect christian bashers or those who dont respect christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockV1.89 Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Faith... hmm... I have faith in some things. I have faith that my gf loves me and wont cheat on me. I have faith that my dog will take a dump in my room and eat my xmas candy while I'm in the shower. I have faith that tonight, the wind coming up the hill against the walls of the house will make my room colder than a mofo... But my faith in these things is all based on experience. I know that my gf wont cheat on me because she's had ample opportunitys to do so with guys that, I feel, are better in many ways than myself. But she doesnt feel that way. I know my dog raids my room because he does it habitually, and he knows when I'm in the shower. But I dont have any real experience in any almighty deity affecting my life. This doesnt discount the possibility that it may, very well, exist, and so I dont dismiss it at all. But I'm not going to dedicate part of myself to a cause to which there is no evidence presented to me other than the words of some priests in the church and a thousands year old book, written by men who claim they were divinely influenced who died thousands of years ago, then the book was modified lord only knows how many times. Does god exist? Maybe. I'm betting he does, although maybe not in the form that we see him. Hell, maybe he's a she? Maybe he/she is an it? Am I really going to go to hell for not going to church on sunday? Or wishing hateful things on the guy who just cut me off? Or sleeping with someone before marriage? I cant answer these questions simply based on someone else telling me "because the bible said so." They're too damn important for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12345678 Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 to those that think faith is restricted to religion, you are flat out wrong. you use faith every day when you walk out the door, and assume a tiger trap has not been dug beneath your welcome mat. the only difference is one of degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dath Maximus Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 large religious debates scare me. so im gonna admit it this once im an atheist thats about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by 12345678 to those that think faith is restricted to religion, you are flat out wrong. you use faith every day when you walk out the door, and assume a tiger trap has not been dug beneath your welcome mat. the only difference is one of degree. I think we're getting the word mixed up here. In my book, Faith is something active. You could apply "faith" to everything in the sense you described, EG - I have faith that when I want to move my arm, it'll move etc. If we return once again to the god-awful box example, the people who believed the lamp outside is on/off have faith. They have no way of proving it really, but they feel it's the most probable. Do the people who don't know whether the lamp is on or off, have faith in that decision? Or is it simply the only natural thing to expect? Expect/Belief/Faith/Hope/Hogwash.... I'm confused now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12345678 Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 as for heaven and hell and such, i think these concepts have the barest thread of a connection to scripture. well, hell anyways. if there is an afterlife, and i go before god to receive my judgement, im going to do my damnedest to strangle him for a couple things that he's allowed to go on down here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12345678 Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 if i had one wish concerning people and religion, it would be that people truly understood that any action, any love, any goodness, must flow through people in this world, not god in the next. whether you consider the goodness originating from god or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Break_dF Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Cjais...please don't try to lecture me on the truth and whatnot. You could've picked a better anology and, regardless of what you think, you aren't above the past. (don't turn that around, I simply refer to the tone of your posts) You left out a group of people: those that just don't give a f*ck anymore... I would be the first to join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by Break_dF Cjais...please don't try to lecture me on the truth Lecture you on the truth? I'm not doing that. All I'm saying is that whatever truth you make up/discover can be refuted by any other. In other words: So far, we haven't got sufficient evidence to know there's a truth at all. You could've picked a better anology Surely I could. In fact I don't like using it, but since I know that if I referred to real world situations/problems/paradoxes, I'd get more hate thrown at me. The simpler the anology the better. If you make up a better one, I'll gladly listen. and, regardless of what you think, you aren't above the past. (don't turn that around, I simply refer to the tone of your posts) You left out a group of people: those that just don't give a f*ck anymore... I would be the first to join. Above the past? If you don't give a flying f*ck about this debate, leave it be. No one is forcing you to read it. I really don't understand your hate for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt-Liell Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Yep Roman Catholic, thats me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Break_dF Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 ....I don't hate you Cjais. I just felt compelled to comment 8). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Originally posted by Break_dF ....I don't hate you Cjais. I just felt compelled to comment 8). Hmm.... I think I understood your comment on me lecturing you about the truth: Forgive me if I rant - it was not intended for you (as you surely know what I'm talking about already). I instinctively acted on the word and started ranting again.... It's nearing 4 pm here, I'm dead tired and soon going to bed. One last thing: I never argue or debate anything religious to convince the "opponent". Do you know how many lurkers visit this place? I'm debating this in honor of them - I know I'll never convince a set-in-stone Christian. But I can hopefully persuade those that observe the debate to look at things from a fresh perspective, if not change their views a little. That has happened to me many times on matters I was unsure about. Fight the good fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yun the Sith Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Yes, I am, and I'm proud of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 these kinda threads suck because you have to read ****loads of paragraphs and by the time you're finished you want to rip somebody's head off, which is why i didn't read the last 2 pages. hehe cjais why do you always dominate these type of threads, do you have an ego problem or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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