Smood Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Well my previous thread was closed because of the volume of the thread, so I will start part to of this thread. If you wish to check the original thread just click below: OLD THREAD Now I will just continue the discussion leaving off with a post from the well known SPIDER AL... Like all fanboys before you, you persist in separating the JK world into two camps: "Jedi" and "Mercenaries." The JK games however, are about Jedi who also use guns. Get that through your head. NO! I completely disagree with this statment. It may have ended up that players use guns and the saber becuase it is strategically more sound, but this is not the intended dynamic (jedi vs. merc mode). I sincerely doubt RAVEN, and LUCAS specifically intended to have this type of gameplay predominant in the outcast world. Althrough they probablly did not detest it. I'am getting tired of this fanboy crap of yours. All I'am interested in making a better game, and I feel doing this will involve making the game more unique and pulling design further away from standard fp shooters, and bringing gameplay closer to the movie. All this talk of fanboys is pure bullsh@t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Okay, Smood, here's an official warning, and anyone else out there who may wish to post in these forums - chill out. If you're going to debate a topic, which I encourage by the way, then do it with respect and a cool head. If you continue with the insults and personal attacks, then I'm going to lock down the thread. Name-calling in general is a provocative gesture, so everyone please, refrain from referring to others as "fanboys" or "newbies", etc. True, some people are fans, and some people are new, but using a label in the context of an insult is the first step toward turning an otherwise interesting debate into a flame-war, and will not be tolerated. I haven't moderated here for a while, but those of you who remember me already know that I am quite tolerant of just about any discussion imaginable, so long as it is conducted with respect and maturity. So again, if feel you need to call people names in order to argue your point, then you may end up finding yourself in the timeout corner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happydan Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 erm... i dont see him calling anyone names in that post. hes simply retorting what was said to him... but, IMO, the MP game should be expanded upon, not changed (except for the combat system, which should be less random, like promod...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff 42 Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 NO! I completely disagree with this statment. It may have ended up that players use guns and the saber becuase it is strategically more sound, but this is not the intended dynamic (jedi vs. merc mode). I sincerely doubt RAVEN, and LUCAS specifically intended to have this type of gameplay predominant in the outcast world. LOL! Have you ever played the single player modes of Jedi Knight and Jedi Outcast? The main character, Kyle Katarn, is a mercenary who becomes a Jedi, and then utilizes his skills with guns in addition to his lightsaber and Force powers to overcome his enemies. Naturally, in multiplayer this model is followed. Everyone can be like Kyle, a Force-using mercenary/Jedi. Jedi vs. Merc play can be a good gametype, but to force it on players would be stupid and take away a large portion of the game's fun. Also, I doubt "LUCAS" cares the least bit about how people play this game. Another funny thing is the fact that the previous thread was locked. In fact, I find that quite hilarious. The reasons for locking it were completely pathetic. But oh well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Quite, happydan. Although Smood's style of debating is immature, it hardly warrants official intervention. Is it me, or are the LF admins becoming more "active" all of a sudden? Strange... And now my response to the... Er... SMOOD: Originally posted by Smood: NO! I completely disagree with this statment. It may have ended up that players use guns and the saber becuase it is strategically more sound, but this is not the intended dynamic Aha. You of course are in NO way qualified to declare what the intended dynamic of the game was. Originally posted by Smood: I sincerely doubt RAVEN, and LUCAS specifically intended to have this type of gameplay predominant in the outcast world. Nor would it be prudent for you to form "sincere" opinions on subjects which you know nothing about. To any experienced veteran of the Dark Forces series, it is plain that Jedi Outcast has a similar dynamic to the excellent Jedi Knight, which staunchly lasted for almost five years as an online multiplayer community. It's a great dynamic, and there are a range of servers available for all styles of play. For those that can't find a server specifically tailored to their needs, they can make one. For those that can't support a server, they have the Zone. What YOU want, and let's get straight to the heart of the matter here, is for YOUR idea of "what the game should be like", to become the reality. YOU want to impose your unworkable and dubious ideas onto the people who have stuck with the Dark Forces series through thick and thin. You, yes you, want to make the game into a "let's pretend we're real Jedi" RPG. You want to slow the game down, you want to make the game into a beat-em-up duel-only parody of the movies. It's an FPS. It always has been, and if you want an RPG, wait for Galaxies. Originally posted by Smood: I'am getting tired of this fanboy crap of yours. All I'am interested in making a better game, and I feel doing this will involve making the game more unique and pulling design further away from standard fp shooters, and bringing gameplay closer to the movie. See, I was right. You're not interested in improving JO. You want to CHANGE JO. You want to change it from being a fast-paced FPS into a slow-paced recreation of a film. You want it to be a playground for those who pretend to be REAL Jedi. And, naturally, whatever you're getting tired of is of little import to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 *mutters something about "harsh but true"* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Ok the game has guns for a reason... to shoot people. Not everyone wants to play with just lightsabers. I enjoy the challenge of killing someone with my BlasTech pistol or sniping them while they're running. I also don't mind fighting a good gunsmen. That is the way the game was meant to be played, not all saber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Jed1 Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Well as far as "game speed" goes JK2 is VERY slow. I pretty much dropped all FPS games since this game came out and the other day when I went back to Quake 3 (haven't played it in almost a year) I was literally fighting to keep my movements under control due to the speed difference between the two games. Slowing the pace of Jedi Outcast even more would make this game into a crappy PC version of console ports like "Jedi Power Battles". Don't get me wrong, I like the complex saber and Force stuff, but something needs to be done to attract the "casual gamer" and not just the Star Wars fans if anyone hopes to keep the franchise strong. Throw in the ability to operate vehicles, add some "one hit kill Spam" options in the way of powerful new guns, saber moves and Force powers. The "average Joe" FPS player is quickly turned off from this game in its current form because unlike other FPS games, you really have to know what you are doing to succeed. Sure in all games the "elite" will always win, but even a "newbie" in Counter-Strike can rack up a decent score if he buys the right guns. The motion to make this into an "rpg" is a very bad idea. Look how many players dropped off the map as the games saber combat was weakened with each patch. Sure some of you will say "Good, they were noobs who Spammed, I'm glad they are gone". Yeah well, enjoy your empty servers; you got what you wished for. Keep the game fast and the moves/weapons deadly and you will keep players interested. Turn it into a /amsit "let's bow" game and you will simply drive more people away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N3mesis Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 One thing that i think it wold really skill up the game is if some how the force powes wold have to be charge up before they could be used Ex. if you wold spend more time charging push than our adversay your push wold be stronger, same thing with jump, you wold jump higher/lower depending on the time you wold charge jump, another improvement in the game was the possibility of some kind of dodging moves like in UT. What do you guys think about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Flame5000 Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 I think that is a good idea and u should tell the creaters of the gasme abought that idea. :c3po: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happydan Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 i would say the singleplayer is there to attract the casual gamer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Jed1 Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by happydan i would say the singleplayer is there to attract the casual gamer... True but single player games do not keep the franchise alive. Look no further than Half-Life for a perfect example. It is the multiplayer content that keeps a community alive and makes people into “fans” rather than just someone who will play it once and toss it away. Go back and read the reviews of this game when it was first released. The multiplayer is what got the most attention and best reviews. It was something totally new, flying around with lightsabers blasting people with lightning. All in a visually impressive graphics engine. Do you think the average player cared about the notion that the ability to pivot in the air while doing a DFA was considered “cheap” by some players? No of course not. All of the “lets do this to make saber combat better” comments people are making are from their own personal preferences of what the game should be like and not suggestions on making the franchise successful and popular. The developers should go back to the basics Raven used when they first developed the game. Throw in all kinds of fancy looking and deadly options to kill other players with. Is that cheap/Spam/lame? Sure, but it will sell a Hell of a lot more copies than the crap that was presented to us in the way of the “Here you damn baby, here is your patch now stfu and stop e-mailing us” patches that were released. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying things should not be tweaked in regards to combat, but that is what mods are for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Precisely correct in all respects, Unnamed Jed1. N3mesis, I personally think your idea is good, and have suggested something of this type myself, several times over the past few months. Merely increasing the minimum wait time before one can re-use a power, like push, would be sufficient however. But as Unnamed said, such tweaks are best left to mods... The abysmal v.1.03 was an example of what happens when gameplay is drastically altered in a patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 (Spider, get your arachnid behind into #massassi) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryudom Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 hmm, i wouldn't want them to increase the wait time for push, because then pushing projectiles would suck. pushing maybe could be weaker if you didn't let it charge long enough, but you could still push projectiles, or at least stop them maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJL Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 I think that in next game or expansion you shouldn't be able to be strong jedi/sith master and use guns... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Players should be able to be: 1. Pure Jedi/Sith (only weapon is saber) but they "could" be very strong with force 2. "Merc" Jedi/Sith (they would have saber and maybe some blaster pistol and they could pickup and use some smaller blaster rifles, explosives, ...) and they could use also force but their force abilities should be clearly limited... (only basic powers like push, pull, jump, ... and saber skills shouldn't be able to be extremely high...) 3. Merc (no sabers or force powers) but "many" light/medium guns (=blaster pistols and small rifles like E11... maybe some dart guns and...) and some special gadgets like jetpack... (same kind of stuff what Jango/Boba Fett had...) --- But these guys play with what they have... i mean no extra weapon pickups for these guys... 4. Soldier (no force and saber and any of those special gadgets) but biger blaster cannons, armor which protects agains blasters, ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- And i think guys who can use and pick up guns still shouldn't be able to pick up all of them at the same time (there should be clear limits what you can carry...) = blaster pistol(s), couple smaller rifles or one big rifle, some explosives.. And of course you should also be able to drop stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Originally posted by AJL I think that in next game or expansion you shouldn't be able to be strong jedi/sith master and use guns... Why not? That makes no sense. Everyone should be able to use guns whether Jedi or Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJL Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Originally posted by Reborn Outcast Why not? That makes no sense. Everyone should be able to use guns whether Jedi or Sith. Because in my opinion guns are not their weapons... Because jedi / sith with guns is not cool... Because it would balance things... Because... i don't like... It doesn't matter if you are sith or jedi... (both can have guns if they are not "force masters" like in that four class idea above...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff 42 Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 I think that in next game or expansion you shouldn't be able to be strong jedi/sith master and use guns... Yes, let's make the game less fun to appease the "fans". From Vagabond: Watch yourself, Jeff 42 - you won't be warned again - I've edited out your name-calling. If you can't post without hurling insults, then don't post at all. And if you can't control yourself, the staff here will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ Spider, get your arachnid behind into #massassi My behind is arachnoid! And I only pop in there when I'm very, very bored, these days. One has to be extremely bored to attempt to find amusement in an IRC channel... Originally posted by AJL Because jedi / sith with guns is not cool... Because... i don't like... Once again, we have someone popping up who wants to change, note: not improve, but CHANGE the game, to be a different game entirely. The Dark Forces series is about a mercenary who becomes a Jedi. He uses guns, explosives, mechanical tools AND the Force and a lightsabre. It has been like this since 1997. It has established fans, and lots and lots of people love it. WHAT in heaven's name makes you, and Smood, and people of your ilk, think that you have the right to CHANGE the series into a completely different game, just so that you can pretend to be REAL Jedi? Make a mod for Chewbacca's sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 I'm totally with Spider AL on this one. Now, I play JO because it's Star Wars, not because it is a FPS. I don't play to necessarily rack up kills (although winning is fun too!), but to be in the Star Wars world for a little while. I am a big fan of the movies, and the lightsaber combat therein. I like JO because for a couple of hours I can pretend to be a Jedi Knight, and that's fun. Whether this makes me a fanboy, I don't know, but I don't dress up or play with toys, although I still have them from when I was a kid But I realize that the visual movie style might not translate easily into the game world. Sort of like turning books into movies, there is always something you have to leave out. They are two different mediums. Some things are done solely for gameplay purposes. Frankly, I think Raven has done a brilliant job at implementing saber combat in a manner that is fast-paced (like the movies, no?), yet easy to use. I don't understand why people would want to slow it down. Quick moves and reflex actions are what saber combat is all about, isn't it? Personally, I think slowing it down would take the essence of saber fighting away, don't you? As for forcing players to either use guns or saber, why would you want to limit yourself like that? As has been pointed out at length, this game is about Kyle Katarn, merc/jedi, and throughout the SP game you can pick up any kind of weapon. So to say that saber+guns isn't the intended game type doesn't seem true at all. And really, that is a great aspect of the game. Look at all the options you have! If you feel that the Jedi in the PT movies don't use blasters, so you don't want to, that's okay too. The great thing about JO SP is that the lightsaber is probably the most powerful weapon, and you can use it exclusively if you choose. Or, if you like the Merc side of JO you can use guns all the time if you want. This game is great because it gives you the freedom to play how you want to play. SP is particularly good for this, and with some slight tweeks (increase saber damage?) MP would be this way as well. As long as the saber is just as effective as guns, people can play the way they want. The other nice thing that Raven did was have a sabers only game type. So those of you in the "Jedi only use sabers" camp can play that way if you choose. Perhaps there should be a guns-only game type along with the normal FFA? But don't go on a guns server and get upset that people are using guns and the saber. If you want sabers only, you already have it. I applaud Raven for giving me the freedom to play the way I want. One last thing, to all you "Jedi don't use blasters" people, Luke sure used a blaster and a lightsaber, so what are you all worked up over? And since this game fits in the post ROTJ EU, and Luke has started training the new Jedi Order, doesn't it make sense that Jedi in this timeframe would use a combination of lightsaber and guns as well? IMO this game is probably an accurate portrayal of what a Jedi might be like in this era. Just a thought Cheers. P.S. Won't it be great when Galaxies and KOTOR come out? Then people can play the type of game that suits them. RPGs for the RPGers, and JO for the FPSers. People trying to RPG on a JO server can often ruin the fun for the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smood Posted January 31, 2003 Author Share Posted January 31, 2003 HERE IS SOMETHING PEOPLE LIKE SPIDER AL ARE JUST NOT UNDERSTANDING!!! I'am not saying slow the game down, I'am not saying make it into a RPG! I'am not saying make classes as default (although the class idea in general is good). I'am saying ENHANCE SABER COMBAT! Make saber combat MANUAL, make it more strategic, make it take more skill and make the saber more DEADLY (i.e. if the saber slides through your body, you should be DISMEMBERED NOT DECAPITATED BUT DISMEMBERED at that part of your body in 1 slice, [imagine if windu ran up to jango and slashed him and sparks popped off him and jango continued to shoot at him]). One thing people are really confusing is fluidity and speed! The speed of the game is fine, I have no problem with fast fps's, I love UT2003. The movement in the game could definately be more seamless. Move from one animation to the next by blending and not jerking from this to that, or don't give the ability for someone to shift side to side 5 times in a second. Blend it into more realistic motion. I fully endorse the saber combat system I suggested but only to the extent of jedi's. I do not want to slow game speed down!!! I don't want this to be a RPG, AND FOR GOD SAKES STOP WITH THE FANBOY STUFF. I'am not going to say anything bad since the moderator is getting angry, but I believe he is not very partial to this 'title' either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Smood, in your original post/thread you said this: Originally posted by Smood: During saber combat individuals are able to move left and right in a very short time, this leads to a cheap fps game/feel not suitable for a type of combat game like jedi outcast. Instead by the same change as above, making the stepping fluid and organic (have movement slower, and better blended) would bring a much greater feel of true saber battling And this: Originally posted by Smood: One key here is making movement slower relative to the world and relative to other individuals. And then you say this: Originally posted by Smood: I'am not saying slow the game down, What are you on? Give me some of it, or at least tell me where to get some. Seriously though, some rather huge contradictions going on there. Not only have you said that you want the game slowed down, but you've done so repeatedly. You also said this in the original post: Originally posted by Smood: I understand this game is a fps, but it is unique in that it focuses a lot of its core gameplay against the saber and dueling. Why not elaborate on this unique aspect of this STAR WARS fps. Fast paced games are great, but making dueling a bit more true to the movies would increase the game's uniqueness and value. And this: Originally posted by Smood: Let's face it, there are not that many players who hate star wars who are playing this game, so exemplify the highlights of this game that are unique and attract the audience which currently plays it! And this, in this thread: Originally posted by Smood: I'am interested in making a better game, and I feel doing this will involve making the game more unique and pulling design further away from standard fp shooters, and bringing gameplay closer to the movie. And then you say this: Originally posted by Smood: I'am not saying make it into a RPG! Somewhat more dependant on interpretation this time, but still inconsistent. You want the game to recreate the movie, hence RPG. As for your desire for animations that blend together seamlessly, sure. Fine. But that's a cosmetic change, not a gameplay change, and has little or nothing to do with your many sweeping, unworkable gameplay-altering suggestions from the original thread. Actually, you've changed your tune a bit, haven't you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Here's my take on all this...I'd like to see: 1. Class-based multiplay, similar to the "personalities" from Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith. So you'd probably have Jedi/Sith, Bounty Hunter, Medic, Tech, Demolition, etc. classes. Each class could use the weapons from the other classes, but when they spawn in, they start with weapons, armor, and inventory items that make sense for that class. Also, different classes might have different max/min values for armor, shielding, health, and perhaps running speed. 2. Bring back the back-pack from Jedi Knight & Mysteries of the Sith - in those games, when you killed someone, they dropped a back-pack with all the weapons & ammo they were holding. If you picked up their back-pack, you got their weapons and ammo - after a a minute, if no one picked up the back-pack it would disappear, but it added an excellent strategic element to the game - and plus it added a fun touch of realism. 3. Allow force users (Jedi/Sith) to use both Light and Dark powers, if desired. Some of the most fun I've had in multiplayer is my "gray" Jedi from Mysteries of the Sith. And it really fit my personality (no pun intended) too. You try to be good and just, but in a tight spot you can unleash the fury of the Force. Not only was it fun, but it added lots of strategic value. Of course, you couldn't just pick all the best powers from the Light and Dark side - the game's interface grouped the force abilities by power-level, and you only had so many picks from each level - so you had to choose wisely. Anyway, it was fun. 4. Joystick support that works correctly (I'm not interested in debating the merits of the joystick -vs- the mouse). Jedi Knight & Mysteries of the Sith had excellent stick support, but Jedi Outcast's controller support was very buggy for non-mouse users. All I ask for is joystick support that actually works. 5. An obscene number of skins would be appreciated. Skins from the prequel, the original trilogy, the expanded universe - and even some new ones that we haven't heard of. Let's see all the skins that make everyone think Star Wars. Jedi Outcast really had a relatively limited selection of skins, which took away a lot of the fun for me. If class-based multiplay is introduced, than I'd like to see numerous skins available for each class - numerous means 15-20 skin choices, or more, available for each class. Aliens, such as Mon Calamari, Ithorian, Wookie, Rodian, Aqualish, Talz, Gran, Shivan, Human (obviously), Gamorean...even the stupid (in my opinion) Yuuzhan Vong, etc.; droids, such as Destroyer Droids, War Droids, Assasin Droids, Medic Droids, Astromech Drods, etc; And have more than one choice available for each Alien/Droid type. The more skins, the better. ...well, that's about it for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Originally posted by Vagabond: (I'm not interested in debating the merits of the joystick -vs- the mouse). You are right not to want to debate the merits of the joystick, as any position other than "Mouse R LEET!!11" would be indefensible! Seriously though, some interesting ideas... As for backpacks, I'm not sure it would "add" anything to the strategic game for one player to end up- as well as being at the top of the scoreboard- with a nigh-undepletable cache of firearms and ammo. Experienced NF games in JK consisted largely of obtaining the first kill, and then stalking all weapon spawns with your wodge of big guns... Kind of like winning the pistol round in CS. Skins are always good, only Star Wars related skins however, we wouldn't want to annoy the fans. A class-system is incredibly difficult to balance, so maybe for a team-game like CTF it might work, (as in TFC) but for straight deathmatch, you'd get everyone using whatever class was the strongest (and there's always a strongest) and that'd be quite tedious and would defeat the point of having a range of classes. Originally posted by Vagabond: Allow force users (Jedi/Sith) to use both Light and Dark powers, if desired. Yes, this is a good idea, and Jedi and Sith never had disparate powers in the original trilogy anyway... Luke used Grip, and Vader absorbed blaster bolt energy etc... However, as an expansion would probably repatch the exe, forcing all clients and servers to use whatever modifications it brought in, maybe changing the gameplay isn't a good idea at all. Perhaps an expansion should be like MOTS, separate. They could write it as a mod. That'd be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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