lllKyNeSlll Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Spider Al. You were never like this in jk1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodiac Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ - Just because you interpret someone's words in such a way that they are wrong, doesn't make that person wrong. That says it all for me. good point. When I'm explaining my point of view in several posts, and one person still doesn't understand it (or doesn't want to understand it), then I'm out of words. I hope Prime understands me now tho. If you did understand it, it'd be clear that I'm not contradicting myself: Separation during development doesn't mean the player can't play both settings at the same time. I'm out. if anybody else still has questions about my pov after all my posts: private message me, and I'll write you an essay about it, with paragraphs and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ: - This is the internet, its a lot harder for some people to express their meaning in words alone. Funny, I haven't had that problem much, I don't think. Perhaps because I post long, exhaustive explorations of my point. Some may call that long-winded, I call it being thorough and/or making a genuine effort. Not contradicting myself helps, too. Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ: - Just because you interpret someone's words in such a way that they are wrong, doesn't make that person wrong. Don't be foolish, by that rationale one could never disagree with anything online for fear that you weren't interpreting it the way the author meant it! Of course people's opinions are defined by what they post! If they post things they don't mean to, that's their responsibility, it is not the responsibility of the readers to mentally correct it. People are rarely psychic enough anyway. Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ: - Calling strangers "my son" can only be interpreted as arrogance. I make it a rule of honour to respond proportionately, in the same tone as I am addressed. You may have a problem with that, but you should know that at I, at least, have reasons for my responses to everything. Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ: - Credit people with some intelligence, you may disagree with them, they may even be completely wrong. But this does not give you the right to talk as though you have the entire "real gaming" world behind you. Find a post where I've claimed that the "entire real gaming world is behind me", and you may have a point. Until then, it remains a gross generalization, unworthy of any attention. Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ: - Many people, including myself, find it difficult to convey a meaning by both written and vocal means. Make sure you fully understand what people are trying to say before you jump on them and lecture them about "honour". Hmm, I've understood the point of view of everyone I've ever lectured about honour, I think. Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ: Oh, and the only people i've met who have considered YOU honourable are you clanmates, who I might mention are extremely obnoxious during games How nice! Slurs not only upon my character but the characters of my clanmates too. FYI, my good friends in [FW] were the most studiously reasonable and intelligent people I've ever met online. That's because myself, Ant and Cal decided early on to only allow those of temperate dispositions into our fold. We have always observed that tradition. Furthermore, I used to be well known for my honourable conduct in both the JK1 and JO communities. This is, of course, a matter of record. Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ: btw: I didn't edit the post, there was a ";)" there all along, if you read the post AND placed it in the context of the post above it your small mind may stand a chance of understanding. Obviously I can't prove whether you edited it or not. There was no smiley in it when I read it, otherwise its context would have been altered. I realise you wrote a little "disclaimer" saying that "small-mind" was referring to alleged "narrow-mindedness" on my part, but if that was what you wanted to say, why didn't you just say "narrow mind" instead? It's kind of like saying: "You have a big bum" and then adding: "by big bum I mean that you have buttocks slightly larger than the national average size." This is an example of a poor choice of phrasing. I could quite legitimately take offense at the implication that my mind is in some way "small." Very bad form, Det. Originally posted by lllKyNeSlll: Spider Al. You were never like this in jk1. I don't know what you mean; I haven't changed since 1998. Check out some of the alt.games.jedi-knight archives or the massassi forum archives. You'll see I speak the truth! Originally posted by Zodiac: When I'm explaining my point of view in several posts, and one person still doesn't understand it (or doesn't want to understand it), then I'm out of words. Oh I never said I didn't understand what you were trying to say, I merely resent your many previous assertions that I had misquoted you, quoted you out of context and/or misinterpreted what you had said. None of the above was or is true. I just posted what you'd said, and replied to it as it was written. Only then did you post, contradicting yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeTRiTiC-iQ Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Either your FW entry procedures are flawed or you have some imposter going around using your "Force-Warriors honour, victory blah blah" tag upon victory. Either way, this person was acting extremely obnoxiously towards other players. Now since FW is a little-known clan, the odds are that you have yourself a stalker, or its one of your own members who isn't as "honourable" as you thought. Anyway, as much as I love having arguments with people on these forums, this is going too far off topic. So please, someone suggest some NEW ideas/suggestions related to the JK2 sequel/expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Either your FW entry procedures are flawed or you have some imposter going around using your "Force-Warriors honour, victory blah blah" tag upon victory. Either way, this person was acting extremely obnoxiously towards other players. Now since FW is a little-known clan, the odds are that you have yourself a stalker, or its one of your own members who isn't as "honourable" as you thought. Oh, is that right? Well, post the details and the appropriate action will be taken if it was indeed a member. Until then, kindly stop casting childish aspersions upon our "little-known" clan. So please, someone suggest some NEW ideas/suggestions related to the JK2 sequel/expansion. Hmm, let's see. One thing that was good about Star Wars as a genre was its sense of scale, of a truly galactic conflict. I would like to see a new game mode added which addressed this sense of scale and added to the teamplay experience as well. A game mode where one would fight over territory, maybe gaining control of an area of space/planet/continent with each level won. A last-man-standing style realism-based mode perhaps, when each player gets killed, they stay dead until the end of the level, etc. Class-based gameplay would come into its own here too. (Mind you, this should be in addition to the default DM and CTF game modes, not a replacement for them) This would also open up an issue I've been wondering about for a long time: random map generation. I for one think its about time FPS technology moved into the next phase of its evolution, with the increased processor power of today's average home computer. I'm sure generic level prefabs that fit together could be created with a little effort, and a simple process could generate a game arena of fixed size, with the prefabs arranged in a pseudo-random format (building prefabs arranged on the floor, floor terrain prefabs arranged likewise, etc.) Just an imaginative indulgence mind you, it'd be a big project to implement, that's for sure. <edit> Out of curiosity I just looked this up, and SOF2 has random map generation apparently. Does anyone know anything about this? Is it any good? </edit> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryudom Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 alternative weather would be cool too heh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 clientside scaling of models would be nice. both in sp and mp. if i see a gundam, i sure as hell want it to be 2x my size. if i see yoda i don't want a big ugly thing, i want a small fry who kicks ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Originally posted by Zodiac What I'm saying is that Raven tried to balance the game in a way that saberists and gunners could play with eachother in a fair and competitive way on the same server. That is a noble goal and I respect and support that. But I think Raven used a wrong balancing method. They tried to balance it, while each separate setting, like pure saber and pure gunning still had its flaws. Like the sabering hit system wasn't good yet, and some guns were too powerful in comparison to other guns, etc. And while they were fixing those things, they also edited the different gameplay-settings to get them balanced. All at the same time. I don't think they should've done everything at the same time. They should've split it up. My point: Concentrate on each separate setting first, like only focus on sabering, and perfectionize this setting to get the best gameplay with this setting only. Now after that, write down what makes sabering great and what not. Now do the same for all other settings: Make the gameplay perfect for all individual settings first. (And if you have multiple development groups, you can work on each different setting at the same time.) After you've done that, THEN try to balance it with eachother, and keeping in mind what was great about a setting and keeping it and what was not good about a setting. If something that was fantastic fun has to be deleted from the game, just because it can't be balanced to another setting: don't balance it! Special moves and special skills will evolve like that, because players will adapt. It's better to let the players adapt to it than removing something that's enormously fun. I get you now, and I agree. For some reason, I thought you were saying seperate the actual players after the game was released, and then bring them together later. Which of course doesn't make any sense. I guess I didn't read the thread back far enough. Sorry about that. I agree with you on this point. I'd prefer if the got the sabering as good as it could get, and the same with the guns. Sorry about making you type all that out again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smood Posted February 15, 2003 Author Share Posted February 15, 2003 I believe the two biggest and if done right best core changes that could be made are graphics (expand engine capability or move to a new engine), and saber combat. In fact my proposed/elaborate system would be amazing but any significant improvement in saber combat, or simply making ALL BLOCKING manual would probablly satisfy me. BTW, I know Spider Al is going to quote this and tear it up, so I will just ignore him if he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonkH8er Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Anymore flaming or personal attacks and the instigators will get a temp ban.... understood? good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Originally posted by Smood: any significant improvement in saber combat, or simply making ALL BLOCKING manual would probablly satisfy me. BTW, I know Spider Al is going to quote this and tear it up, so I will just ignore him if he does. Oh no, I actually agree that manual blocking is better. I've always said that manual blocking would be good, but since I know that the simplicity of the system must be preserved, I'd like to see a single key function: While the player has the key depressed, he/she goes into blocking mode, and blocks energy projectiles and sabre strikes. Intuitive and simple, just the way I like it. Not that I'd mind learning more complex controls, it's just that DF has always been intuitive since the first game, and the series would suffer from all those unnecessary bells n' whistles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Originally posted by Spider AL I'd like to see a single key function: While the player has the key depressed, he/she goes into blocking mode, and blocks energy projectiles and sabre strikes. Intuitive and simple, just the way I like it. Not that I'd mind learning more complex controls, it's just that DF has always been intuitive since the first game, and the series would suffer from all those unnecessary bells n' whistles. I agree that this is probably the most manual you could make blocking without making it so complex that it would be ineffective for the average player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smood Posted February 16, 2003 Author Share Posted February 16, 2003 Intuitive and simple! ARGH! That is what makes for a noob feel as the system progresses. If the game mechanics are challenging and require practice to be used well (effectively reflecting real jedi), the system will be better, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodiac Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 That's a good point Smood. I agree with you on that. If they can find a way to make it not simple, but also not too difficult (=in the way that it wouldn't be fun to use), then I'm all for that option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Smood: Intuitive and simple! ARGH! That is what makes for a noob feel as the system progresses. If the game mechanics are challenging and require practice to be used well (effectively reflecting real jedi), the system will be better, period. Firstly, the DF series is a series of FPS games, and if it serves the cause of good gameplay, then "reflecting real Jedi" should take a firm back-seat. The game does not exist in this galaxy to allow people to roleplay as Jedi, it's here to be a fully functional FPS. Secondly, complexity does not equal better; the DF series is not a series of flight simulators, and increasing the complexity of the controls to a dizzying level (the level you suggested in your original post) could only slow the gameplay down to such an extent that the fast-paced feel of the JK series would be lost. Also, you keep saying that a simple so-called "intuitive" control system gives a game a "noob feel". I'm not sure what you mean by that. It certainly doesn't close the gap between newbies and elites at all, I'm quite certain that those dedicated people who are good now, would be good regardless of what control system the game was fitted with. Neither does an intuitive control system make it easier to become good. In fact, all an ultra-complex control system could do would be to scare away many potential players, who might one day become valuable contributors to the SW FPS community. Hmm, the control system in JO is roughly the same as in JK, and that was a classic... nay, all-time-great game. In fact, it's about the same as every other FPS on the market, because it is in fact, an FPS. Perhaps you mean that a simple control system merely makes you yourself feel as though the game is in some indefinable way "noob". In that case it's just a matter of your personal opinion, and many people would obviously disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Smood Intuitive and simple! ARGH! That is what makes for a noob feel as the system progresses. If the game mechanics are challenging and require practice to be used well (effectively reflecting real jedi), the system will be better, period. I don't think it is "Period". And better for what? It may be more fun for people who want to practice at a video game and view it as a competition, but the majority of players (casual gamers) do not want to do this. They want to pick up a game and be reasonably effective with the control system right off the bat. Not everyone plays so that they can be better than the next guy, and they don't care if someone considers it "noobish". Besides are you going to be happy if you pick up this game and play the role of Kyle as a full Jedi and every time a rodian happens to fire in your direction you miss the block? Even if you are willing to practice, many will say, "What kind of stupid game is this? I'm supposed to be this great Jedi, yet I can't block a damn thing". Can you imagine these boards then? Also, what if your ping is worse than someone else's and your block commands don't get picked up in time? If the system is too complicated, the lag problem may just be exaggerated. Now I'm not trying to say that any complexity is a bad thing, but I think you have to be careful with the reason you are adding complexity. The complexity should be just enough to make saber defence as accurate and realistic as possible. Adding complexity for the sake of making the game "require practice" or so "noobs can't be good right away" does not work from a mass market perspective. Anyways, simple moves and controls do not make a simple game. Chess has simple moves, but is probably the most complex game there is. You bring up the reference to real Jedi. Personally, I think the less complexity the closer it will be to the movies. Luke in very earliest training on the way to Addleraan was able to block blaster bolts, and blind at that. Hell, even six year olds were able to do it. So I imagine a game featuring Kyle (a much more experienced Jedi) should allow the player to be very effective at saber defence. The best way to do that is to make saber defence as simple as possible. I always thought that since "the force guides your actions", blocking bolts and whatnot was accomplished by allowing the force to control your movements. Not unlike the saber defence system we have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Prime I agree that this is probably the most manual you could make blocking without making it so complex that it would be ineffective for the average player. About a year ago I suggested a manual blocking system in the way that you should be *aiming* at the opponent to block his attack. A while later a guy called ArtifeX stole my brilliant idea and used it in his Pomod-mod...mod. (Seriously! I made a thread about that before Promod came out, I swear to god. ) What I'm trying to say is that: if we get manual blocking I prefer the idea of "aiming" to "mashing the block-button". Aiming has it's problems with lag but... I still think it's more "realistic". EDIT: I got proof! >>> http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=70506&highlight=manual+blocking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Luc Solar: What I'm trying to say is that: if we get manual blocking I prefer the idea of "aiming" to "mashing the block-button". Aiming has it's problems with lag but... I still think it's more "realistic". Well, blocking frequency dependant on aim is a fine idea... I have to say once again though that I think "realism" and other similar concerns should take a back seat to gameplay concerns, and you already mentioned the lag problems. I'd like to be able to block incoming blaster fire within a certain angle without worrying that the attacker will warp twenty degrees to my right side and mash me up. Furthermore I like the idea of having real, manual control over where and when I block things. Finally, I think you'll agree that whether one mashes buttons or not (just as whether one spams or not) is a question of individual skill and finesse rather than any fault of the control system. You'll always get some who mash, regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Originally posted by Rumor clientside scaling of models would be nice. both in sp and mp. if i see a gundam, i sure as hell want it to be 2x my size. if i see yoda i don't want a big ugly thing, i want a small fry who kicks ass. i think this is a very good idea. do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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