[PART II] CHANGES/IDEAS FOR UPCOMING SEQUEL/EXPANSION thread

[Unnamed Jed1]

Well making saber combat "like the movies" would be boring as Hell.

Why?

99.9999999999999% of all the swings were blocked and every single time the saber contacted skin, the fight was over.

 

I'm not sure people would go for that instead of just picking up a gun and shooting you...

 

The TFC idea could be a great mod/game type idea though.

You could have different gunners like snipers and heavy weapons guys.

Different Jedi with class based powers for specific purposes.

TFC is actually one of the best games/mods ever created and due to the wide variety of powers and weapons in the SW universe it could really be great if ported over.

[ryudom]

i also like the classes idea, you could have differant gametypes spawn from this as well, like the Saga gametype and other stuff would be cool. it'd be important though to have this as an option, you could have classes or no classes

[Spider AL]

Good point ryudom! Options is the key word.

[AJL]

I also think that anyone (with force powers) should

be able to select both light and dark side powers and

player shouldn't be just able to press one button and

choose if he in on dark or light side...

 

His force side should be selected as average value of

those force powers what he selected...

 

And also his strength with all force powers what he

have should be average value of those powers...

 

(I mean if he have about same amount of light and

dark powers then his powers are all bit unbalanced

and "weak" but when he is deeply in dark or light

side he is strong with that side powers and weak

with those opposite side powers...)

[Vagabond]

Actually, this leads into the whole discussion about what it means to be "Light" or "Dark". On one side you have the people that say if you have a power that can harm someone, then that means you're on the Dark Side. On the other side, you have the people that say it's how one uses that power that indicates whether one is Dark or Light.

 

Me? I fall in the later group. Just because a police officer has a gun, doesn't mean the officer is evil. They could use their gun for evil - they could shoot out peoples' windows, hold up a bank, or shoot someone's pet just for the heck of it. Or, the officer could use his/her gun to protect the public, to take down criminals that are about to harm someone.

 

So, I think it's how you use the power that makes one Dark or Light. As has already been pointed out, we have examples of that in the movies already. Plus, does anyone really think that a Darksider wouldn't heal themselves if they were injured? Pffft! Darksiders are all about the quest for power as quickly as possible - that's the very definition of being on the Dark Side. If they could learn "Force Heal", it would be a safe bet to assume they would.

 

So, how does that translate to multiplayer? I say, just toss the whole concept of Light, Dark, Somewhere-In-Between out the window, and select whatever powers you'd like (with some balancing restrictions), and get it on

[Smood]

I actually have not problem with movement speed in JO. When I said slow down movement relative to the world I actually meant slowing down eratic or wild movements down, such as strafing from side to side quickly, and replacing it with a blended slower movement.

 

The actual forward running movement is fine. Hrm, ACCELERATION. Yes I think that is what I'am looking for. Starting movement out at a fair speed, but as a movement direction is maintained it increases to a point which is the limit (including fatigue might be an avenue you could down).

 

Furthermore, making something truer to the movies doesn't mean making it a RPG at all. You can just as easily have a UNIQUE saber battling FPS, which has combat much like movies.

 

SPIDER AL.... do you believe right now the saber is deadly, and can hold up to a gun? I didn't think so, this is what I want to change and my other host of suggestions come to support this one fundamental change. MAKE SABER WIELDING REQUIRE SKILL AND TIME TO GET GOOD, but allow it to have its own rewards.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Ooh lemme guess what Spider_AL's (correct) response will be:

 

"The saber has its place just as any other weapon, I use the saber when the situation demands it, I don't go prancing into a firefight with a sword (no matter how powerful) and expect to win, that would merely indicate stupidity"

 

I use the saber in CTF, when it is suitable to do so. You might notice that in the movie's the Jedi have only ever fought one person with extensive weaponry, ie Jango. So I don't see how people can argue precendent for Jedi "owning all".

[ryudom]

hmm detritic i somewhat disagree i think, smood as some what of a point here.

 

i believe it should be like this: in a TFFA, IF one teams was using guns, and the other sabers, if skills are equal, they should be tied. obviously it would take differant tactics, but if a good saberer is close enough to a gunner, the gunner should be dead. cranking the saber damage would be a good start, other improvements could be made. probably your right though, in a FFA a gunner could probably rack up more kills then the average saberer, but not as bad as it is now.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Smood:

I actually meant slowing down eratic or wild movements down, such as strafing from side to side quickly,

 

Yeah, I remember you said that in the original thread. I refer you to Phayyde's Book of Honor rule No. 10 and rule No. 11. THAT's what you want.

 

If you slow the game down, which IS what you're talking about, and would be the effect of your suggestions, it will ruin it. Only someone who knows nothing about the gameplay dynamic of an FPS would suggest such nonsense.

 

Originally posted by Smood:

making something truer to the movies doesn't mean making it a RPG at all.

 

Yes, it really does. JO is an FPS. JK was an FPS. DF,.. you guessed it, was an FPS. FPS games have a particular dynamic, and have done since Wolfenstein 3D. If your unworkable and nonsensical suggestions were followed, such as "infinite sabre moves" and slowing the game down, IT WON'T BE AN FPS ANYMORE. It'd be some wierd beat-em-up or RPG hybrid, not a "unique fps" but a NON-FPS.

 

Frankly, go and e-mail LEC and ask them for a new "wierd Beat-em-up/RPG hybrid" and stop trying to make the next game in the DF series into your own pet "let's pretend" playground, if you please.

 

Originally posted by Smood:

SPIDER AL.... do you believe right now the saber is deadly, and can hold up to a gun?

 

SMOOD....... It never, ever will hold up to a gun. A sabre is a melee weapon, and even if it's a one-hit-kill weapon, the gunner of equal skill who kills from a distance will still win every time. The saber has its place, like the Tenloss.

 

Which is presumably why people of your ilk want to take gun-users Force powers away. Rule No. 7.

[Prime]

Some kind of class system with different types of Star Wars characters would be cool. And maybe you could multiclass with pros and cons so you could get exactly the mix of abilities you want. Like a pure Jedi would have more force abilities than a Jedi/Merc, who would have more than just a Merc. The Merc would have a wide range of guns, but so saber. The Jedi Merc would have less guns but could use the saber, and the oure Jedi just a saber (and maybe the bryar). Would that work? Like Spider Al said, options are key!

 

I'am saying ENHANCE SABER COMBAT! Make saber combat MANUAL, make it more strategic, make it take more skill and make the saber more DEADLY (i.e. if the saber slides through your body, you should be DISMEMBERED NOT DECAPITATED BUT DISMEMBERED at that part of your body in 1 slice, [imagine if windu ran up to jango and slashed him and sparks popped off him and jango continued to shoot at him]).

and

SPIDER AL.... do you believe right now the saber is deadly, and can hold up to a gun? I didn't think so, this is what I want to change and my other host of suggestions come to support this one fundamental change. MAKE SABER WIELDING REQUIRE SKILL AND TIME TO GET GOOD, but allow it to have its own rewards.

 

Unfortunately, the majority of the gaming population is only casual gamers, and making the saber combat too strategic, making it take a lot more skill would turn off a lot of potential customers. Nobody wants to get a game about Jedi and be completely inept at doing anything Jedi-like with the saber. Most people do not want to put in a lot of time to get better at it. Many (most?) people do not look at the game as a competition. Besides, in the movies Jedi use the force to guide their actions with the saber. So to me it is perfectly reasonable to have auto-defence. There should be a happy medium though. Perhaps have the option for manual or auto defence?

 

Also, if you make it so the saber requires a lot of skill and time to learn, in a guns vs. saber fight, what are most people going to choose? Guns of course. Guns are easy. People will be saying, "Why the hell would I want to use that impossible saber when I can own right away with all these guns?" And they'd be right.

 

But, you can set up the saber so it is super deadly now with the following codes (there are more too, I think):

 

set g_dismemberProbabilities 0-100

set g_dismemberment 0-3

set g_saberrealisticcombat 0-1

set g_saberdamageScale 0-X

set g_saberghoul2collision 1

set g_sabertracesaberfirst 1

 

If you haven't tried those, give them a go, because you can slice and dice and make a mess with your deadly saber.

 

Hope that helps.

[Unnamed Jed1]

Originally posted by Smood

I actually have not problem with movement speed in JO. When I said slow down movement relative to the world I actually meant slowing down eratic or wild movements down, such as strafing from side to side quickly, and replacing it with a blended slower movement.

 

The actual forward running movement is fine. Hrm, ACCELERATION. Yes I think that is what I'am looking for. Starting movement out at a fair speed, but as a movement direction is maintained it increases to a point which is the limit (including fatigue might be an avenue you could down).

 

 

Ok great for NF duels but what about CTF/TeamFFA/FFA/CTYellow Lizard Thing/Jedi Master/Holocron/FF dueling?

 

 

And as for the saber requiring skill, it does even in its current form.

If you change it or overcomplicate it you are only going to frustrate players even more and drive them off. Not everyone is dedicated enough to spend countless hours learning game mechanics. Some people just want to hop on and kill **** for a few hours a week.

 

All the idiots who whined about the back stab in 1.03 always made comments like “It’s for noobs who cares if they leave”.

Well the 1.04 patch produced the single largest exodus this game has ever seen.

Is that “good for the community”?

Nope.

 

Look I see where you are coming from dude I really do.

As someone who has put countless hours into Full Force dueling I understand how a person can look at things and see major room for improvement because you know the mechanics of the game so well.

But you also have to look at the big picture.

Not everyone will be on your level skill wise and if you overcomplicate things you simply drive off players.

[Guardian Omega]

Hmmmm, I just thought up an idea that could make the idea of the mouse controlling the saber work............

 

The problem with that idea is aiming up and down, which the keyboard is horrible right? So my solution would be this: Get a joystick for movement (aka for the WSAD and up+down).

[Jeff 42]

i believe it should be like this: in a TFFA, IF one teams was using guns, and the other sabers, if skills are equal, they should be tied.

 

If one team is using all the weapons available, and the other team is using less than ten percent of the weapons available (not counting Force powers, anyway), it should be an even match? How about no.

[Reborn Outcast]

Originally posted by Unnamed Jed1

Well making saber combat "like the movies" would be boring as Hell.

Why?

99.9999999999999% of all the swings were blocked and every single time the saber contacted skin, the fight was over.

 

I'm not sure people would go for that instead of just picking up a gun and shooting you...

 

PERFECT. We finally have someone who knows what hes talking about besides Spider Al and Vagabond. Unnamed Jedi is PERFECTLY CORRECT. Smood, implementing what you said would make the game exactly as Unnamed posted and RUIN IT. This game is perfect the way it is.

[Prime]

PERFECT. We finally have someone who knows what hes talking about besides Spider Al and Vagabond.

 

Hey!

[Reborn Outcast]

Oh my bad Prime. I didn't really see, I kinda skimmed through... I'll change that sentence to

 

 

PERFECT. We finally have someone who knows what he's talking about besides Spider Al, Prime and Vagabond

[ryudom]

If one team is using all the weapons available, and the other team is using less than ten percent of the weapons available (not counting Force powers, anyway), it should be an even match? How about no

 

guns wouldn't be all the weapons available, it would be all save sabers... anyway, someone skilled with a lightsaber should be really hard to kill, with that in mind its definitely possible to see a balance here. you just have to look a little farther then the current JO.

[Spider AL]

guns wouldn't be all the weapons available, it would be all save sabers... anyway, someone skilled with a lightsaber should be really hard to kill, with that in mind its definitely possible to see a balance here. you just have to look a little farther then the current JO.

 

Not really, melee weapons became obsolete as major weapons of war for a reason. A swordsman must be within a certain range to attack. A gunner can be at any range. All he has to do is maintain distance, he doesn't have to increase it. The sabreist on the other hand must CLOSE distance. Who has the advantage? Two players of equal skill fight,.. the gunner wins.

 

Add to this the fact that there will always be a range of guns and explosives, and you see instantly that without taking abilities away from gunners, there will never be true balance.

 

The abilities must stay. This game is about guns AND sabres. There is no need to separate the two AT ALL.

[Smood]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Yeah, I remember you said that in the original thread. I refer you to Phayyde's Book of Honor rule No. 10 and rule No. 11. THAT's what you want.

 

If you slow the game down, which IS what you're talking about, and would be the effect of your suggestions, it will ruin it. Only someone who knows nothing about the gameplay dynamic of an FPS would suggest such nonsense.

 

 

 

Yes, it really does. JO is an FPS. JK was an FPS. DF,.. you guessed it, was an FPS. FPS games have a particular dynamic, and have done since Wolfenstein 3D. If your unworkable and nonsensical suggestions were followed, such as "infinite sabre moves" and slowing the game down, IT WON'T BE AN FPS ANYMORE. It'd be some wierd beat-em-up or RPG hybrid, not a "unique fps" but a NON-FPS.

 

Frankly, go and e-mail LEC and ask them for a new "wierd Beat-em-up/RPG hybrid" and stop trying to make the next game in the DF series into your own pet "let's pretend" playground, if you please.

 

 

 

SMOOD....... It never, ever will hold up to a gun. A sabre is a melee weapon, and even if it's a one-hit-kill weapon, the gunner of equal skill who kills from a distance will still win every time. The saber has its place, like the Tenloss.

 

Which is presumably why people of your ilk want to take gun-users Force powers away. Rule No. 7.

 

OK SPIDER AL... before you were countering my points, now your just interpreting and assuming what you want from my posts and picking them apart from your imaginary angle.

 

MY SUGGESTIONS DO NOT SLOW DOWN THE FPS! Obviously you cant get this through your head so I will give up on trying to convince you. I await your post which will quote what I have just said and pick it apart from your own imaginary angle and interpretation.

[Smood]

Originally posted by Unnamed Jed1

Ok great for NF duels but what about CTF/TeamFFA/FFA/CTYellow Lizard Thing/Jedi Master/Holocron/FF dueling?

 

 

And as for the saber requiring skill, it does even in its current form.

If you change it or overcomplicate it you are only going to frustrate players even more and drive them off. Not everyone is dedicated enough to spend countless hours learning game mechanics. Some people just want to hop on and kill **** for a few hours a week.

 

All the idiots who whined about the back stab in 1.03 always made comments like “It’s for noobs who cares if they leave”.

Well the 1.04 patch produced the single largest exodus this game has ever seen.

Is that “good for the community”?

Nope.

 

Look I see where you are coming from dude I really do.

As someone who has put countless hours into Full Force dueling I understand how a person can look at things and see major room for improvement because you know the mechanics of the game so well.

But you also have to look at the big picture.

Not everyone will be on your level skill wise and if you overcomplicate things you simply drive off players.

 

THIS I RESPECT. Take notes spider AL, from a guy who disagrees with me and makes a fair and good case. TAKE NOTES!

[Unnamed Jed1]

I’m not saying what Smood is suggesting would “ruin” the game per se.

All I’m saying is the “average player” has little interest for refined game play mechanics.

Perfect example: Pro Mod.

 

Artifex put a tremendous amount of time and effort into making the game a test of pure strategy and skill and not a game based on random factors. In this he succeeded quite well.

As far as being a well put together build, I think Pro Mod in its current form is miles beyond anything Raven has put out.

 

Now that said, consider there are what 4-5 dedicated Pro Mod servers out of 700 running at any given time?

 

How many emote/silly animation servers are running now?

Hundreds.

The average player will flock to a game with big flashy guns, Darth Maul skins and jet packs.

They are not going to be drawn in by refined combat (saber or guns).

 

And to be honest it’s those “average players” that keep sales high.

Word of mouth spreads about his cool SW game and kids run to Best Buy and grab a copy.

 

 

Basically you need to add content to the expansion in the way of skins/maps/guns/powers/whatever to appease the “veteran players” and you need to make the game have a “pick up and play” skill level so as not to frustrate the new players.

[ryudom]

Not really, melee weapons became obsolete as major weapons of war for a reason. A swordsman must be within a certain range to attack. A gunner can be at any range. All he has to do is maintain distance, he doesn't have to increase it. The sabreist on the other hand must CLOSE distance. Who has the advantage? Two players of equal skill fight,.. the gunner wins.

 

ok, so perfect balance might be hard to get, but that doesn't mean you can't increase it. here's some things you could do:

 

1- Guns: say you went back to the JK1 guns, and added the disruptor and mines.

 

2- Saber damage: think you know what i'm getting at here.

 

3- Force powers: they could add some saber orientated force powers, like another speed, exept this ones a short burst forward, possible lunging at the same time. powers like this could help sabers catch people.

 

anyway, i'm not saying the two should be separated, i didn't say that. i'm just saying sabers could be more more powerfull. don't get me wrong, i started gunning recently, and i love it. but, like i said, i'd still like to be able to kick ass with a saber, if at least sub-average asses hehe

[Smood]

Originally posted by ryudom

ok, so perfect balance might be hard to get, but that doesn't mean you can't increase it. here's some things you could do:

 

1- Guns: say you went back to the JK1 guns, and added the disruptor and mines.

 

2- Saber damage: think you know what i'm getting at here.

 

3- Force powers: they could add some saber orientated force powers, like another speed, exept this ones a short burst forward, possible lunging at the same time. powers like this could help sabers catch people.

 

anyway, i'm not saying the two should be separated, i didn't say that. i'm just saying sabers could be more more powerfull. don't get me wrong, i started gunning recently, and i love it. but, like i said, i'd still like to be able to kick ass with a saber, if at least sub-average asses hehe

 

I concur.

[Jeff 42]

Perfect example: Pro Mod.

 

Artifex put a tremendous amount of time and effort into making the game a test of pure strategy and skill and not a game based on random factors. In this he succeeded quite well.

As far as being a well put together build, I think Pro Mod in its current form is miles beyond anything Raven has put out.

 

Now that said, consider there are what 4-5 dedicated Pro Mod servers out of 700 running at any given time?

 

How many emote/silly animation servers are running now?

Hundreds.

The average player will flock to a game with big flashy guns, Darth Maul skins and jet packs.

They are not going to be drawn in by refined combat (saber or guns).

 

Why do I not play ProMod? It's not because I don't want refined combat. Heck, I think for saber combat it's way better than 1.04. But I don't play it because unlike the regular versions of JK and JO it limits you to being either a Jedi or a merc, or a weak hybrid. And this limitation, to me, makes the game less fun. Now, some people are suggesting that LEC should implement this exact same limitation into the next DF game, and I have to strongly disagree.

[Unnamed Jed1]

What I was saying is Pro Mod accomplishes what it try’s to:

The elimination of random factors in regards to combat.

 

I'm not saying the overall game type pf Pro Mod should be implemented in an official release.

 

As for classes, an option to play a TFC type of class based mode would be cool, but it is just that. A game mode like CTF, not an overall turn in the games direction.