JEDI_MASTA Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed. why do we continue to have background checks and gun permits and everything in the US... is it that difficult to understand, if your free you should be able to cary a gun anywhere u damn well please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbguy1211 Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 the right to bear arms was a law made in a different time. can you please explain the purpose you have for carrying a gun? why do you NEED a gun to live comfortably? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEDI_MASTA Posted February 28, 2003 Author Share Posted February 28, 2003 the right to bear arms allows a person to protect himself, this is a fundamental right of humanity and should not be infringed, I personally feel that it isnt the governments job to protect me and that I would feel much safer if I carried a gun. If everybody carried a gun there would be no crime... because everybody could defend themselves, the only crime would be crimes of suicide and extreme rage. Look at england for example, when they banned guns their violent crimes skyrocketed, the gun is not the problem, it is the person. good to see a nice question there that I can fairly debate without having to call people names (waits for dago to walk in) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Did I hear my name? The right to bear arms allows a person to protect himself, this is a fundamental right of humanity and should not be infringed, I personally feel that it isnt the governments job to protect me and that I would feel much safer if I carried a gun. If you travel the world, you'll see that 90% of all nations get along very well without the right of carrying guns. Also, this Constitution that you choose to follow like a God also legalized slavery. Does that mean we should have slavery, too, as the civil war is "unconstitutional"? 3. Militia? Well-regulated? Guns in the States are everything but well-regulated. Besides, seeing you have the biggest army in the world, I don't think removing guns will make you lose a war.. . Besides, it's not a militia anymore, face it. Here's what we have to do. Lower crime rates and abolish freedom of carrying guns: But in that order. The US Crime rate, sorry to say it, is way too high. If we take away guns, things will get out of hands really fast. We also need to enforce some restrictions on stuff like carrying guns in public; on policemen using guns (way too many of them shoot first, ask later); and on purchase of guns. Not everyone should be allowed to have one. If everybody carried a gun there would be no crime... because everybody could defend themselves, the only crime would be crimes of suicide and extreme rage. Sorry, but I have yet to see one single example of this. The only example of everyone having guns are communities and slums where actually everyone have guns. However, crime rates and death rates in those areas are anything but low, making it necessary for police to maintain active patrols. So much for guns eliminating the need for police to protect you. Look at England for example, when they banned guns their violent crimes skyrocketed, the gun is not the problem, it is the person. And how many people died to end slavery? Hell, legalize slavery too, as "the number of deaths skyrocketed when the abolition began". Crime rates in the UK have stabilized by now, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygomaticus Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Well, some of the amendments in the consitution can definitely be considered partially "outdated." Guns are a much more dangerous weapon than they were when it was written. Times just aren't like the wild wild west anymore. Things change. Supposedly, this rule hasn't. Dunno when it will, if it will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle 3. Militia? Well-regulated? Guns in the States are everything but well-regulated. Besides, seeing you have the biggest army in the world, I don't think removing guns will make you lose a war.. . Besides, it's not a militia anymore, face it. Wrong. We do not have the biggest army in the world (we do have one of the best and well equiped but not the biggest). Militia=National Guard/Reserves And how many people died to end slavery? Hell, legalize slavery too, as "the number of deaths skyrocketed when the abolition began". Crime rates in the UK have stabilized by now, though. And how many people have died in the many English Civil wars? Or the French? The Consitution may have initially allowed slavery, however that has changed. Which is why that document is one of the best in the world (it can be changed to suit the times). Ever country has time periods that they are ashamed of. For the US slavery was just such a time. For the French it could be the Reign of Terror. However this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. So getting back to that topic. --------------- Yes people have the right to own weapons, it has to be regulated and limited. Owning guns is a right, they are not just used for defense. Some do shot for sport, some like to collect them (vintage guns). Also abolshing guns/weapons will only do one thing. It will take away guns/weapons from law abidding citizens (who deserve to own them). Criminals will still get a hold of them (if you think otherwise then your foolish). This means that people will be less able to defend themselves. Once again it has to be regulated and there must be limits, but it shouldn't be abolished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clefo Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Maybe we should all shut up and be abso-f'ing-contented with our lives and the way things are and get a life.. My $0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tie Guy Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle Here's what we have to do. Lower crime rates and abolish freedom of carrying guns: But in that order. The US Crime rate, sorry to say it, is way too high. If we take away guns, things will get out of hands really fast. We also need to enforce some restrictions on stuff like carrying guns in public; on policemen using guns (way too many of them shoot first, ask later); and on purchase of guns. Not everyone should be allowed to have one. That is completely unfair to policemen. Sure, when police officers shoot first, you hear about it in the new, but its very rare that they shoot their guns at all. That's why it's news in the first place, because it is so rare and/or stupid. And if the policemen are restricted from using guns, who would that leave to defends us? Only criminals who illegally obtain guns who would have them, and that would be a very serious problem. Officers who abuse the use of guns should be decommissioned, but thats a very small number. Think of it this way. Would you try to mug a guy who had a pistol on his waist? Who you try to kill someone whom you knew shoot back? Not likely. If we all carried guns it would drastically reduce the crime rate. Now there are obviously cons to this, as accidents may be more plentiful, and people may take things way out of a hand over something like a simple argument. But with the reduction in crime rates i think it would cause, those things are relatively minor problems to be ironed out. BTW, the consitution never supported slavery, it just never forbid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 This just might surprise a few folks here, but I am opposed to any gun controls for all the same reasons that I am in favor of unrestricted abortion rights: I am against anything that would restrict an individual American citizen's rights. Morally and personally I am pretty opposed to both. I personally would never own a firearm, and if I ever found myself in a situation where an unexpected pregnancy occured I would do everything in my power to avoid all possibility of an abortion. But politically I do not feel I have the right to dictate my morality to others and force my personal beliefs on anyone else who may believe differently and come from a different background than I do. Also: My dad is an avid firearms collector and enthusiast. I don't see any problem with him owning any the weapons he already owns, although more than a few of them would be banned under a handgun control law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 maybe i can protect myself by killing every potential threat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEDI_MASTA Posted February 28, 2003 Author Share Posted February 28, 2003 verry good plan R15 of course you would be punished for it, but at least your not dead, look on the bright side. Eagle, when madison (the man who basically wrote the bill of rights) was asked what a malitia is, he said "the people" in order to get the constitution ratified they couldn't outlaw slavery or you would have had a civil war far sooner, but i suppose you never thought of that. Slavery was a bad thing but it is the only way the southern people could do what they had to do to make cotton profitable. We have crime in america simply for the fact that guns are TOO DIFFICULT to obtain, I am all for actually educating people on how to use firearms in school for the simple reason that it would make everybody a much more dangerous threat to rob or mug. since we obviously cant have a cop everywhere, why not allow every law obiding citizen the right to enforce the law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Homer Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 The right to own and bear arms is much different from obtaining those guns. That's why laws against owning guns have never been enplaced, but rather limits on what guns are sold and to whom they are sold. Controlling the sale of guns is very different from the control of owning them. Sure crime may decrease if everyone owned a gun, but then more deaths may occur from people trying to use their guns to protect themselves. In the long run, crime probably wouldn't be affected all that much, it'd just become a game of "I have a bigger/better gun than you." I'd rather have to wait to get a firearm so they could check backgrounds of everyone to try to weed out as many irresponsible people or criminals they could (and let's face it, criminals will find a way to get a gun anyway, but let us at least try to make it harder on them to get one). I agree that anyone who owns a gun should go to training classes to learn how to properly use & maintain that weapon. Let's all be realistic for a moment anway....why are handguns and machine guns, etc. made? For killing other people, nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Germany - Firearm homicides: 381 France - Firearm homicides: 255 Canada - Firearm homicides: 165 United kingdom - Firearm homicides 68 Australia- Firearm homicides: 65 Japan - Firearm homicides: 39 USA - Firearm homicides: 11,127 Need I to say more. the right to bear arms allows a person to protect himself, this is a fundamental right of humanity and should not be infringed, So, the right to have the chance to blast the head off your neighbour at any time is a fundamental right of humanity? and that I would feel much safer if I carried a gun. Perhaps you would feel safer, but would you be safer? Not at all. The Consitution may have initially allowed slavery, however that has changed. Which is why that document is one of the best in the world (it can be changed to suit the times). Lots of other documents can too. If everybody carried a gun there would be no crime... And if everyone got a car, there would be no traffic accidents. Suuure. because everybody could defend themselves, How many times must I say this? Guns do not deflect bullets. A gun is nothing but a murder weapon, it cannot be used to reduce the amount of murders. Look at england for example, when they banned guns their violent crimes skyrocketed, the gun is not the problem, it is the person. *Looks at the amount of firearm homicides in UK* *Looks at the amount of firearm homicides in US* *Laughs at Jedi_Masta* And if the policemen are restricted from using guns, who would that leave to defends us? Only criminals who illegally obtain guns who would have them, and that would be a very serious problem But if you banned guns, how many criminals would get them? Very few. Think of it this way. Would you try to mug a guy who had a pistol on his waist? Well, perhaps if you was carrying a gun yourself. Who you try to kill someone whom you knew shoot back? Well, obviously, people try it all the time, and it always ends in at least one homicide. Not even murderers deserve to die. I am against anything that would restrict an individual American citizen's rights. All laws restricts an individual American citizen's rights. Would you want to make it legal to kill anyone you want? Also: My dad is an avid firearms collector and enthusiast. I don't see any problem with him owning any the weapons he already owns, although more than a few of them would be banned under a handgun control law. And? If guns were banned, he could go collecting something safer, and that's only good. If we all carried guns it would drastically reduce the crime rate. Riiiiight... This would become a community of fear, because anyone would know that anyone would be able to kill them at any time, and their first reaction to anything would be to pull their guns out. The number of firearm homicides would increase drastically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treacherous Mercenary Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Originally posted by JEDI_MASTA why do we continue to have background checks and gun permits and everything in the US... is it that difficult to understand, if your free you should be able to cary a gun anywhere u damn well please. Does this mean guns should be allowed in public schools, malls, etc for example, even automatic weapons? JM Qui-Gon Jinn pretty much pointed out some some things, so I don't need to say more. I agree that anyone who owns a gun should go to training classes to learn how to properly use & maintain that weapon. Why don't that become a requirement before even owning a gun for those who want to buy one? At least most people would know how to employ them in certain sitautions in this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark jedi 8 Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 hey it is a "free" country, you can carry a gun with you, but you WILL have to pay the consequences. just like the freedom of speech, you can say anything, yet if you speek of treeson, you can be picked up by the cops. the u.s. is technically not that free, though it is more free than most other countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn All laws restricts an individual American citizen's rights. Would you want to make it legal to kill anyone you want? No. That's ridiculous. So, let's say they overturn the Constitution on this one count. But is that where you stop? If you give the power to the Government to start limiting currently accepted American rights how far will you let them go before you try to pull the brakes,.. and then will you ever be able to stop it? Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, seperation between church and state... there are forces out there today who would be very interested in overturning or altering all those currently accepted freedoms, as well as others. Think it couldn't happen? Think again. FACT: The firearms community is undoubtably the strongest, most politically motivated and active special-intrest community in this country. If you can manage to enact a gun-control law under thier watch, then all those others would have to be a total piece of cake to overturn. Maybe small changes, piece-by-little-piece, so small that you never might notice them at first, but these changes would come. A cascade effect would take place. Besides, a gun-control law in this country would prove to be as effective as alcohol prohibition was. It would ultimately alter nothing. It would only force gun owners and makers underground, creating an underworld element and creating a new atmoshere for organized crime and criminal gun-runners. I don't like guns, and would like to see a day come where everybody willingly gives them up... but that's the only way you will ever be able to make them give them up. Enforcing a law like that would have the opposite effect as intended, and ultimately could never work. Listen, you are talking to someone who doesn't understand why in this day-and-age that marijuana is still illegal. Oh, by the way: my dad also collects vintage guitars. Something that I can get behind. But he also likes guns, but I know he has never used one on anything other than targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthfergie Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Not again :\ This is what? The 14 time this has been debated. I remember the first of these and how explosive it was. It was the first thread that drove me to out and out flame warfare and it has been copied a billion times. I don't hold with guns. Other coutries such as Japan get along fine without guns...do you know how many deaths by shooting they had from 1980-1990? Less than 10. In the crowded country. Less than 10. That's what...A daily figure for the US? Protection with a gun is total BS. It just gets you shot. Sure it might be useful if we were invaded during full scale warfare and had to organize malitias similar to the Confederate Army during the Civil War. But with the state the world is in right now, that just won't be happening. I don't realistically see guns being pulled off the market in the US, however much they should be, because they are heavily ingrained in our culture. Without them there would be a demand for black market guns. A very heavy demand, but ONLY because Americans are stubborn people who need several generations to properly adapt to anything because they have their rights to live in their own little world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Originally posted by edlib No. That's ridiculous. K, just asking. Anyway, I belive the only way to get the gun situation under control in the US without making an inferno out of it is to make those small changes until guns are totally forbidden. I don't like guns, and would like to see a day come where everybody willingly gives them up... but that's the only way you will ever be able to make them give them up. Enforcing a law like that would have the opposite effect as intended, and ultimately could never work. But getting rid of the guns needs to be done, sooner or later, no matter how hard. The situation is extreme, over 11,000 dying of it each year. It's better to get rid of them now than waiting even longer. Listen, you are talking to someone who doesn't understand why in this day-and-age that marijuana is still illegal. Because it damages your physical and your mental health, and it often leads to heavier drugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Fergie Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Listen, you are talking to someone who doesn't understand why in this day-and-age that marijuana is still illegal. I've got an idea that'll please everyone on this issue... How bout we leaglize pot... and still throw you in jail for being a pothead. That way you say "we want pot legal" well now you got it You say " we want it illiegal" you got the same end. Note: Not that any of you we know this but this is not my original idea due to the fact all ideas have been thought and there is no original idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Legal or illegal, the same number of people will still use it. Just like alcohol or firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobahn Eagle Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 11 000+ : 365 = 30 deaths a day. I agree with about everything Qui-Gonn says. So, let's say they overturn the Constitution on this one count. But is that where you stop? If you give the power to the Government to start limiting currently accepted American rights how far will you let them go before you try to pull the brakes,.. and then will you ever be able to stop it? Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, seperation between church and state... there are forces out there today who would be very interested in overturning or altering all those currently accepted freedoms, as well as others. Think it couldn't happen? Think again. FACT: The firearms community is undoubtably the strongest, most politically motivated and active special-intrest community in this country. If you can manage to enact a gun-control law under thier watch, then all those others would have to be a total piece of cake to overturn. Maybe small changes, piece-by-little-piece, so small that you never might notice them at first, but these changes would come. A cascade effect would take place. So much for "the constitution being the best paper in the world because of its flexibility" . Look, banning guns won't turn the States into a dictatorship. And Americans look after their rights, so it won't happen. Anyway, I belive the only way to get the gun situation under control in the US without making an inferno out of it is to make those small changes until guns are totally forbidden. I totally agree. BTW: Freedom of press: Sri Lanka has higher press freedom than the States. Enough said (USA's #34 on the list). The reason? Ironically enough: Media abusing freedom of media (I made a thread with some good suggestions on how to preserve media freedoms.. you may want to hunt it down). Freedom of speech: This is already limited. Obscenity, untrue statements, and offensive statements are all illegal. Ie you can't legally start a neo-nazi website. Afraid of changes to your rights? Well, they are already there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treacherous Mercenary Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle BTW: Freedom of press: Sri Lanka has higher press freedom than the States. Enough said (USA's #34 on the list). The reason? Ironically enough: Media abusing freedom of media (I made a thread with some good suggestions on how to preserve media freedoms.. you may want to hunt it down). Freedom of speech: This is already limited. Obscenity, untrue statements, and offensive statements are all illegal. Ie you can't legally start a neo-nazi website. Afraid of changes to your rights? Well, they are already there. A reason of why I'm fleeing from the US whenever I can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEDI_MASTA Posted March 1, 2003 Author Share Posted March 1, 2003 DO I HAVE TO BEAT THIS THROUGH YOUR THICK SUKLLS, GUNS DO NOT REDUCE THE RATE OF FIREARM HOMICIDES,but they reduce the rate of crimes such as rape where a person must be taken advantage of, would you rob a person who you knew was packing heat, it is difficult to argue with people who dont have guns in their home country because they dont know that you feel safer being able to protect yourself. JM, i would like to see the total homicides for each of those countries, not just firearm homicides because as you say you cant get guns there, but 1 there are still firearm homicides, and there are still murders. if you are going to prove a point at least know what ur trying to beat........................................... nothing stops me from starting a neo nazi website, the cell theory wasnt the nazi's only platform, (if you know what the cell theory is you get a cookie) so no, its not illegal, im allowed to believe whatever I want. that is the beauty of the bill of rights and why it should not be infringed (that would be permits) it says that all free men have the right to bear arms, therefore, if you are not in jail, you should be able to cary a firearm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEDI_MASTA Posted March 1, 2003 Author Share Posted March 1, 2003 O yeah, and one more point... do you people really think the gun does this... I can kill somebody with a pencil as easy as i can kill them with a gun, if you can prove to me that guns kill poeple and people dont kill people I will convert to being an idiot o uhh a liberal EDIT: i just read the laughing at Jedi Masta thing you posted JM, if you would get the right info man, they dont have guns in these countries, therefore there will be less firearm crimes, but still pretty much the same murders, there will also be less robberies in the US because we have guns,l and, if you do go find this info to prove me wrong cuz you cant do it, please find the info per capita instead of comparing a country that is 100 times the pop of britain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthfergie Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 what is the normal use of a pencil? To write. What is the normal use of a gun? To destroy. Even if you just use it on the target range it still destroys and it doesn't take much to go from the target range to real targets. The truth is, I'm more dangerous with a Colt 45 than with a pencil. A hell of a lot more dangerous. It's that kind of danger and easy access to it that I am worried about. Sure you may buy it for protection, but someday you may end up using it to "protect" you while robbing a bank. BTW, sure you can believe what you want. Like the mormans beleive in poligamy...OH WAIT. They outlawed that when they joined as Utah in the 1890s. You can believe what you want as long as it is inside the "normal" regions. No sacrificing people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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