Gameplay Suggestions

[P4ulo]

Maybe we should get a poll going on with the main changes and put everyone to vote on and send the results too to support it

 

ex:

- Should force push/pull be toned down: yes/ no / dont care

- Should be added new weapons..

- Should any weapon be removed..

etc

and all the mentioned stuff in here

[legameboy]

there needs to be more JEDI moves like the reborn did and more, we need to be able to even kick or punch if we want

[pds.Yahweh]

I agree with alot of what has been said, but just so Raven gets the message I'll give a post. Playing in the JK2 community from start to finish I feel I represent many of the viewpoints held by its various members. Starting with PDS helped me pick up the game quickly and watching the community grow pre-1.03 days was great. The game had few things that truly annoyed me besides the gun for ammo thing, which was of course never fixed. 1.03 was released and then just like that it was gone. PDS pretty much dropped out of existence and various other clans vanished. I eventually played for Valar and then a quick stint with pds(comeback) in the end, but nothing was like the early days.

 

 

Force powers were probably well intentioned, but made no sense at all...Push/Pull was so ridiculous and has been mentioned so many times I do not need to delve more...Speed and Rage need to be in check with Push/Pull, not one dominated the other...Speed needs to be less mana, the game turned into who could die the quickest after using one of those powers...just get rid of dumb force powers like protect or whatever the heck it was called...Lighting was dumb...Absorb was fine, but I never liked how it would stop u mid-air when u got pulled/push (is it possible to have different degrees of absorb so that push/pull wouldnt effect u?)...I wont go into all of the force powers, but u guys know which ones were flat up retarted and need to be majorly revised aka push/pull, shield.

 

I rarley used sabers so I wont discuss them to much. I always thought it was useless to have so many stances, moves etc... for soemthing not used in ctf multi-player on a competitive level . Of course saberist multi-player will differ, just get rid of alot of the garbage for ctf play.

 

Ammo needs to be changed so you can pick it up with a gun. I always liked the weapons other than the disrupter. What a piece of garbage. Make it a rail gun (q3).

 

Thats all for now. Hopefully JKIII will be awesome.

 

---Yahweh---

[Necrosis]

de.Legion, hopefully this will help. I'll outline most of the good points made.

 

-"The Fletchette should have one direction for its shot, and not have a different direction each time you shoot it. Those balls go differen’t places randomly each time, and if it would just go the direction you aim, it would be perfect."- PetR

 

-"Make pull cost more, or put a delay after its use, or make it have to be aimed with the crosshair, or all of the above."

-twl.Sphinx I would like to add to this thought by saying that alot of people have also suggested that force pull delay the persons movements that you are using it on, rather just have it take away their weapons, or maybe just not such a dramatic delay.

 

-"And make Team Energize balanced, in JK2 two players using TE constantly can get unlimited force." -makli

 

-"Perhaps the return of the concussion rifle is an idea ?" -oasisfan

 

-"definately. replace that ****ty 2ndary repeater lob shot with the good old conc" - DSbr-matt

 

-"Another thing raven should consider is add some life to 1v1. In quake 3, alot of people were into 1v1. It also had some of the biggest tournaments. Which advertises companys, which makes raven money . " -PetR

 

-"Make fast paced 1v1 for JA

Make a variety of maps with different trick jumps etc. (Oaisis FF and BGJ did get a little boring after many years you know! )."

-PetR

 

-"Increase saber damage and uphold that area of gameplay, but PLEASE dont nerf our aspect of gaming (full force CTF) in favor of others." -Aoshi

 

-"Please make more and bigger open maps where we can jump around and enjoy playing. So many maps are incredibly small or cramped that they are very hard to enjoy. Also if you make another smaller type map like CTF_Imperial please never again put a large shield booster in the base. , also very much so agree with Logan on the aspect of sticking to walls. I hated that I would be strafing along full speed and then accidentally bump a wall and stick to it thus completely reducing my velocity to zero (and even moving me backwards a bit).

 

-" Please if the rocket launcher reappears, do something about the rocket exploit (where you get a partial circle with secondary switch to saber switch back to rocket and fire primary)" - PetR

 

-"Disruptor damage should be increased." - alarm

 

-"If nothing else, the demo player needs to at least be able to pause, rewind, and fast forward. -Sphinx

 

-"Here's a suggestion; actually beta test the game before you release it?... that usually works. And, when you test, use people that aren't complete idiots." -Break_dF

 

 

 

Hope that helps a little, might save you some time searching though this.

 

If anyone else has something to add, go ahead.

[Shaggy1984]

How about for guns, location specific damage in multiplayer. It was in singleplayer. So why not the same in Multiplayer. I really found it rather frustrating to snipe someone in the head with a fully charged rifle, and it having no extra effect than to say hit them in the leg

 

Also how about for gunner a skill system, in the vein of promod. You specify what sort of gunner you want to be. One who proficient in pistols, gadgets, rifles, heavy weapons, demolitions, electronics, heavy armor, recon etc...

 

Replacing the force power selection.

 

Majorly upping the thermal det damage

 

How about the blind grenades from Mots

 

Also how about upping the energy weapon damage (pistol, St Rifle etc.) just a bit. I'd also rather see a wider range of weapons from the existing SW universe. Rather than seeing new made up weapons with crazy effects.

 

A wider range of gadgets. Grappling hook, jetpack, deployable ammo/shield stations, deployable turrets, Radar etc.

 

A better sniper rifle that can kill in one head shot despite having full armour.

 

A peak move for gunners.

 

How about also having a weapon limit of 2-3 weapons tops. Rather then enabling gunners to be a walking arsenal.

 

More interactive multiplayer levels. Lights, traps, turrets etc.

 

Give the gunner some athletic moves, roll, Sprint, edge cling, back to wall (in 3rd person), Quick shot (from back to wall) , Peek etc.

 

Oh and also how about weapon recoil.

 

Perhaps a stamina system, allowing Gunners to have a quick burst sprint, roll, etc.

 

Thats a few of my ideas for guns Multiplayer, I know this is asking way to much, but what the hell

 

I'll be back with my ideas for sabres later

[The Truthful Liar]

Thanks for the outlines Necrosis. Don't doubt I'm not reading these, as a matter of fact I'm writing down outlines on paper, discussing them with a couple people and working on the document simotaneously as I type this (God bless coke). :-)

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

I just had a thought which *may* work, but I can't stress enough that this idea would need serious beta-testing.

 

Change pull/push so that instead of instantly changing the motion of the target an actual force is applied to them in the relative direction of the force power. The longer the player holds the pull/push button, the greater the effect on the target, if pull/push gets to a fully charged state, the player literally flies back (as in the current state of the power). Naturally the longer you hold pull/push the more mana it uses, start off with at about 10 for tapping (slows the target down) but increase to about 50 for a full charge. Oh and of course, the player has to be directly targetting the enemy too.

 

Advantages:

- Not easily spammed, simply hammering the pull key will only have a minor effect on the enemy

- Requires skill and accuracy, not only do you have to target the opponent initially but you have to be able to follow their movements to get the most out of the powers

- More realistic and believable, and mimics the effort a Jedi has to put in to fully manipulate an object/person as opposed to gentle coercion.

- The target can tell when they are being pulled long before the full effect kicks in, so they have a couple of seconds to react (dodge, jump, attack the player) before being fully in the grasp of the power.

- Any more?

 

Disadvantages:

- Still doesn't solve the problem of rage usage (short of removing the power altogther or limiting the player to either rage or speed on at once but not both, I don't have much of a clue here)

- Not newbie friendly... oh wait, this should be in advantages!

 

Where do Rage and Absorb fit in?:

- Absorb: Absorb makes it require a larger charge to manipulate the target and the overall effect is weaker, but a full charge is fully capable of seriously slowing down an enemy's movement.

- Rage: Rage makes the player easier to move and the effect of a full charge is to literally throw the target in the relevant direction.

 

I expect this idea has some flaws, but since its unlikely Raven will remove pull/push altogether, this is all I can think of.

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed

Regardless of absorb though I think push/pull should function with "gun like" physics.

 

As in the cross hair needs to be on them for it to even function.

 

ya that might be a good idea. maybe, like a gun, push/pull could shoot some sort of magical force projectile where you would have to hit the target for it to work.

[PetR-]

Hey de.Legion, if you need any help what so ever on what you are typing up, please... contact me on aim : petrm88

 

What people have said so far is excellent.

 

Also could a moderator please sticky/stuck (whatever you want to call it lol ) this thread.

 

[The Truthful Liar]

Anyone who wants to be part of live discussion for the GSD tomorrow please join #JK3 on quakenet, no arranged time as of yet. The GSD topics have been set, I've written well into 4 pages of details in my notebook.

 

I hope to use portions of these notes and include them into their related topic issues. One liter of coke (the 1.5 kind) left to go, I might just have to leave this one till tomorrow night since the time is already 4 AM here. :]

 

If you want to help I suggest coming online to IRC tomorrow and in the meantime please keep those highlights coming if there are more available, otherwise, I'll just collect everything in the past 3-4 pages in this thread and write those down as well on top of the notes I've written down so far.

 

Cheers to all here who helped and for your great support, I really do hope this makes a difference and that we're not only dreaming.

 

Just as a reminder, tomorrow besides the live discussion, (it'd be alot easier for you all if you could join though) certain highlights will be posted here from the GSD and everyone can give their own opinions on that specific topic/issue. If the general concensus is a favourable one then we can proceed onto the next topic, if not, then we discuss further. G'night everyone!

[Zodiac]

hmm.. If Raven manages to create a sabersystem that works perfect and is great fun.. and they manage to create a gunning system which is also fantastic.. then they should stick to it and don't change it just to balance it with another system.

 

Most of you will think:"well duh, that's obvious, if it's great don't change it" ..

 

But what I'm trying to say here is that if they manage to create those 2 great settings (like great Guns No Force and great Sabers No Force), that work great and are terrific fun when the player only chooses to play only guns or to play only sabers, but don't really work well when the player chooses to gun-and-saber at the same time, then don't change it just to balance it so the gun-and-saber option will work. If guns/sabers only is great fun, and guns with sabers is mediocre fun, don't sacrifice and edit the great fun to turn that other mediocre fun into 'just good' fun.

 

Like.. imagine they create this great new rifle, and it's loved by all the gunners out there....and all of a sudden this great new rifle gets removed, because it's not balanced in an all weapons (guns&sabers) -setting... I think removing that new great gun would be wrong.

 

I say: Don't focus too much on the balancing of all the settings so they can be used simultaneously

 

I say: Focus on what makes each setting real real fun on its own, then stick to that and don't change a great and fun attribute when it doesn't seem to be working in a setting that combines multiple settings. (like.. you have 1 setting: NF Sabers, and you have multiple settings: FF all weapons).

 

And I think they should start their development-process by separating each setting (Force, Guns and Sabers) and tweaking each setting so that each setting is great fun and absolutely perfect on its own.

Then later they should start to focus on looking how the settings can be combined, and if the combination of 2 or more settings can't be done without sacrificing a great attributte of the single setting, then don't try to combine em and live with the fact that not everything can be balanced. That is reality I guess, not everything can be balanced.

[Guest Jolts]

Biggest thing for me that they can impove on is to make everything move and feel solid in the gameworld. JO was too slippery, to floaty in sp and mp, nothing was grounded, nothing had weight to it.

 

Force jump you just lifted up off the ground like noclip was enabled, no weight in it or speed or timing. Everything moved in even speed with no ease in or out, no actions had ancipation to them.

 

Instead of swivling your hips and runing to the side for the strafe animation, how about an actual side step?

[Zodiac]

Yes yes, Jolts has a good point here. Because of the floating feeling I also had the idea that movement was just real slow in the game. Your character had the animation of running, but I never felt he was going fast.

 

Also... they should work on different speeds, like moving backwards should be slower than moving forward.

[Doctor Shaft]

I'm glad all the 'pro' players are giving their opinions. I agree wholeheartedly with everyone that this game needs to go back to its JK roots to an extent (not entirely).

 

Guns:

They need to be powerful, they need a good amount of ammo, they need to be fast. Damage needs to be high. In addition, the reduced feedback damage needs to be REMOVED. I can't tell you how annoying this game got when I would actually time a well placed push that shoved a guys projectile right in his face before it even got 3 feet out, only to get nothing out of it because he only takes 60% damage. This is just wrong. If we're going to be talking about skill, then we need to take out all the handicaps. I'm okay with everyone's "make the game skillful" stuff, so long as as we cover all aspects. That means no "golan rushes". You kill somone up close, you need to die too. 100% feedback, please!

 

Sabers:

A touchy subject. The bottom line is this: the sabers need to be fast, furious, and deadly. That's it. 1-2 hit kills. Who cares if blue stance ends up tearing people up, etc. We can't have this "hit me 3-4 times" crap. Why do the l33t gunners hate saberists? Because they waste time, that's why. "Saber battles are boring" is the common mantra among good players. They are boring because they are slow, long winded, and when people lock into a battle, it wastes time. Saber battles need to be as short as gun battles. That's the only way anyone is going to accept their existence in competitive play. I played JK2++ awhile back because it was both fast, guns had ammo (this was during 1.03 days), speed cost was reduced, AND the sabers did a huge load of damage. This meant that I could use my saber and kill the gunners. It was hard, but I could do it in one good swing. It needs to be like this. They can blow me away from almost any range, but if I close, I should get my kill.

 

The thing a lot of gunners are saying is "give the saberists their stuff, but focus on the guns, respect our game aspect". I respect your aspect. I HATE saber only servers. I don't like saber only combat. I LOVE using my saber, along with a disruptor and thermal detonators, against gunners. So long as you give me the ABILITY to get kills in a high speed, competitive game, I'll be happy. The gunners like to use guns only a lot. They say saberists are awful because they won't use any other weapons. Fair enough, I recognize when I need to use guns to accomplish the job, but gunners have to recognize that while they love their guns, I love my sabers, and I just want to have the ability to use it in a fast paced, murderous way. Thats' all I want. On the other hand, if they want us to use guns so badly, then I want them to have to use the saber sometimes as well; you know, in those rare situations; or face death. No damage reductions. No super blocking. Deadly sabers, paper thin blocking is good for me.

 

Force Powers:

Detritic's pull/push thing is a good idea, along with the idea of having to aim like a gun. The area effect helps with pushing projectiles back. However, in order for the effect to hurt others, it should need to be aimed.

 

Otherwise, force powers need to be powerful but rare. JO had tons of force power spam Some powers were entirely useless (lightning, mind trick) while others motivated the entire game (rage, speed, absorb). There's no doubt that neutral powers should be the dominant influences of the game. Speed and jumping, the stuff that makes us move. Stuff like Rage was over the top. CTF became a use/or lose kind of thing. You either had absorb, or you had rage. Rage making me fire guns faster was silly. Neutrals should be powers that I can use a lot (minus push/pull). Specials should be things that I can use sparingly, but have a useful effect. Stuff like protect was almost a waste of time. Give us powers that have immediate, short ranged powerful effects at a high cost and difficult set up. I think that would be good. Dousing people with 20 seconds of lighting wasn't cool.

 

 

Guns/Sabers/Force Power Settings:

The one gross disadvantage a saberist ever had was that a gunner who didn't like his lightsaber could just forgo it and have superior force powers. I'm all for the gunner/saberist/etc. having force powers. But having to pay a high price for my saber, especially when it's not an uber weapon in any sense, and then watching the gunners completely over power me in both force and firepower is annoying. Just give us the saber moves. Defense/Offense should just be cut. The guy who forgoes the saber moves is actually at an advantage in JO, because frankly, he doesn't need the glowstick to win. Just give it to us for free. Let me select which saber i carry, and that would be the end of it. It won't hurt anyone. We want the fast paced game where you need to use all the weapons to win, so placing a penalty on saber use is unnecessary.

 

that's all i have to say about that...

[shock ~ unnamed]

Originally posted by DSbr-matt

ya that might be a good idea. maybe, like a gun, push/pull could shoot some sort of magical force projectile where you would have to hit the target for it to work.

 

I think that would be called L.A.P.D tazer power.

 

 

But simply having your push/pull key not even function unless the cross hair is lit (think grip) would eliminate a lot of the retards who just stand there mashing the Hell out of it.

 

Sure you could still mash the keys but it won’t fire off 5 pulls in a row rapidly unless you are able to track the guy with your cross hair as he moves, and how many noobies can do that?

 

A closer range system would also help.

 

If you had to actually get within level 3 drain/lightning range (around 10 feet out max) maps like ctf_ns_streets would not be an issue for pull/push whoring.

 

Sure you could still send a guy over the edge but not unless you got pretty damn close.

[Aoshi]

Nice post Shaft and i agree wholeheartedly. I would LOVE to use my saber as more than a shield. Mindtricking a flag carrier then sneaking up on him and sabering him would be complete and utter ownage, but in order to do this the saber needs to be what it is: a glowing sword of pure energy. You dont get hit by a huge blade of energy and then get hit again and again... and again... and oops again. This change would be for the better in both CTF, Duel and any other SO gametypes. Instead of running around swinging madly people would then have to time their attacks, dodge, feign attacks, retreat and fake advance. In all, duels would be strategic manipulation JUST LIKE SWORDFIGHTING ACTUALLY IS. In kenjutsu one strike kills. That is the nature of the sword. The sword is meant to deliver one blow and all swordart is centered around being able to deliver that blow. You dont try to hit an opponent 5 times in real sword fighting because after 1 hit (if you're any good) they should be dead.

 

This brings me to another point. Add in buttons for faking. What i mean by this is add in a button that gives a quick animation such as a quick sidestep and then back to original position. This would really be good in duels if implemented correctly as you could then fake out your opponent and strike him when he's least ready or when he has exposed a weak spot.

 

Also another suggestion i would make is to have SEPARATE force powers for dueling and then for CTF/FFA. This would make dueling a completely independant aspect of JA and would force duelist to go to duel servers. Forces like this could be such things as "Force Illusion" where multiple copies of your player are produced but vanish when you strike. "Force Boost" where you gain a tremendous boost in speed for 1-2 seconds. "Force Stun" where you can momentarily stun your opponent and force his guard down. "Force Distortion" where you create a gravity field using the force and thus exert a slight pull towards a certain point on the map for a period of 5 or so seconds. Also "Force Blind" could be brought back as a duel only force and other things such as this that would greatly improve the strategic element of dueling. Also for the duel forces i would suggest taking out pull/push as they lead to quirky little bugs like pullthrow (which i dont really care about but if saber throw did as much damage as it should would be too much of an advantage)

 

This leads to my next suggestion. upping the damage of saber throw significantly... I mean to like 75-90 damage significance. Also if pull/push is taken out of dueling the speed of saber throw should also be improved. This would be a BIG equalizer between gunners and saberists as 2 well placed throws would kill a gunner.

 

One final suggestion is this. If force lightning makes a reappearance have it so that the central area of level 3 lightning does tremendous amounts of damage(like 2-3x as much as it does now). What i mean by central area is the area that lightning would affect with level 2 lightning. Then the periphery lightning could remain the same damage and that would be like splash damage. If this were implemented, people would have to AIM their lightning instead of just spam it and upper level players could use it to actually kill people and it would be infinitely more useful.

 

In conclusion I am all for the betterment of both sides of the arguement. I want to see duel become a great gametype that even gunners will want to play from time to time and similarly I want to see sabers be used in CTF games as something other than a shield. I also would like for duelists to go to their own servers and having independant forces for dueling would drastically influence this. I really hope Raven listens to us.

[Doctor Shaft]

Well, at this point it seems that the Raven people are putting in a few saber 'gimics' already.

 

You'd think we'd just get a double staff, but you can apparently switch one blade off and use it. You can wield two sabers and throw one at people. Yada yada. Saber combat seems to be getting heavy.

 

I just hope the saber battle times won't be getting heavy either. That kind of stuff should be reserved for someone's personal duel server. Otherwise, hopefully everything is fast and brutal. I'd hate to see JA turn into the mighty lightsaber fest. It would be really cool for about two days, then kind of get stale.

[SuperSon!c]

Originally posted by Aoshi

The sword is meant to deliver one blow and all swordart is centered around being able to deliver that blow. You dont try to hit an opponent 5 times in real sword fighting because after 1 hit (if you're any good) they should be dead.

 

I agree with this definatly in the movies the saber is a 1 hit kil kind thing. What Raven could do is that maybe in a duel mode that if you hit the arm you can't us that arm anymore or chop off a leg you would have to hop round on one leg i think this would make things more interesting.

[SkiTzoGuy]

Originally posted by SuperSon!c

I agree with this definatly in the movies the saber is a 1 hit kil kind thing. What Raven could do is that maybe in a duel mode that if you hit the arm you can't us that arm anymore or chop off a leg you would have to hop round on one leg i think this would make things more interesting.

 

Thats a good thought.. also it would be kinda funny whatching a person jump up and down fighting. but wouldn't that be kinda dumb?

[Agen]

Anyone who wants to be part of live discussion for the GSD tomorrow please join #JK3 on quakenet, no arranged time as of yet. The GSD topics have been set, I've written well into 4 pages of details in my notebook.

 

Crap, looks like i'm probably not gonna make the chat unless it's 7-10ish GMT

 

I agree with this definatly in the movies the saber is a 1 hit kil kind thing. What Raven could do is that maybe in a duel mode that if you hit the arm you can't us that arm anymore or chop off a leg you would have to hop round on one leg i think this would make things more interesting.

 

Well instead of hopping around and having dead limbs how about, if you get hit in the arm, you don't hurt them as much when you swing (even though it doesn't really make sense because of the way the saber is) and you move slower if you get hit in the leg.

 

Having to use the crosshair with Push 'n' pull is a good idea, so you actually need a bit of aiming skill rather than pointing in their direction to throw them off a cliff.

[DSbrLogan]

there was a character in jk1 that didnt have any legs

[Hekx]

Originally posted by DSbrLogan

there was a character in jk1 that didnt have any legs

Maw.

 

[HertogJan]

I agree that pull/push should be restricted to one enemy, and only works when your crosshair is over them. In MP at least, please not in SP, because I like to jump in the air and pull a small team of stormies up in the air.

 

Of course, when they've reached some height, they will fall down and break bones they've never even heard of

[Agen]

Yeh, push was fine in Sp, i think it should be kept the same in there.

[P4ulo]

Necro, u forgot the:

-possibility of doing rewind/forward/pause and change POV on recorded demos which was/is already in Q3 engine.

-(ctf mod) The team player / flag carrier location which also can be done by editing the maps.

- Better even maps for TDM with good weapons and shield points rather than two shields/rocket on a side and only a repeater on the other side.

- Better even maps for ctf, maybe less pits, and more than 4, maps even old games had more than 10 maps for each mod.

- If possible, after the game release somewhere/someway where we can post the bugs and expect some feedback/a patch to solve it. (which didnt happen with the rocket exploit)

- Possibility to add our own head photo to the model would be something funny to say the least or some piece of software (model editor) EASY to use to make something with our own faces like bitterman in q3 for example (i dont think its actually possible but sure would be funny) -> something like this but easier to use http://www.clanbeowulf.org/skinyourface.htm