Gameplay Suggestions

[Crowy]

if i remember rightly one jedi actually had a lightsaber whip thingy... now that would be a cool addition to the game

[WD_ToRMeNt]

*Looks at the above posts and sighs*

[Zodiac]

And I don't think 'the competitive players' or 'oldschoolers' like Torment want JKA to be exactly like JK1. Otherwise he would've also mentioned the crappy stuff about JK1, like the lag, JK1's force_lightning or force_protection, etc

 

He's just pointing out the good points about JK1's MultiPlayer. Those points he mentioned are some of the main reasons why JK1 was such a success. I think those good points should be the basics for any future JK game.

 

It's so simple:

You have a good game, with great and succesfull things in it(=JK1). So just 'copy' the good things that made the game so successfull, add other things that are even cooler or just as cool, and voila: a game that's even better than JK1.

 

And a game better than JK1 = success = lots of players = large community = money for Raven and LEC = orgasmes.

 

I mean, just look at the future plans for CS's sequel. They're using the basic fundamentals of the original CS, because CS was such success, then just add other cool stuff that'd make the game even more fun. They're not using an entirely new game, they just get rid of the stuff that was bad, reuse the stuff that was good, and then add stuff that might make it better. And that's how any future JK game should be. They're all 'sequels'. They should all 'learn' from eachother. JK2, sadly enough, didn't 'learn' anything from JK1.

[Crowy]

what was wrong with my suggestion WD_ToRMeNt?

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Exactly. Jk was awsome, but it had it's flaws.

 

- PtP net code sucks

- Poor official support, the community did all the work

- It was laughingly easy to cheat.

- A few of the force powers were pointless

- Only 2 decent maps; BGJ and Oasis

 

So yes, keep with what worked in JK1, fix the problems above, and add extra content that enhances the game, not junk that just looks good.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Sorry Crowy, I was a bit cruel but... please read the entire thread before posting. We're talking about serious fixes for JK2's broken MP. Suggesting things in the fringes that raven won't implement anyway just makes the thread longer, and the topic harder to focus on.

[alarm]

removing strafe jumping is retarded

[SuperSon!c]

Originally posted by alarm

removing strafe jumping is retarded

 

Exactly, Also for you ppl who think guns shouldnt be in it if you ever have watched star wars the movies you would know that all the jedi died form either dark jedi or a guy with a gun.

[Zodiac]

removing strafe jumping is retarded

Thanks for the very constructive arguments here.

 

Strafe Jumping is idiotic. It does not belong in a JK -Star Wars related- game, because it's ridiculous for players to hop around like that. It's a 'bug' that was never intended to be in JK2, and it never had the purpose of intentionally adding more fun to the game. Just look at CS, they removed something similar called bunny hopping from that game, because it was just moronic to see Navy Seals hop around like kangaroos. Hopping didn't suit that game-genre, and it definitely doesn't suit the SW-genre.

 

We could ask: Why do people strafe jump? and the answer would be that it is faster than just running.

People could also answer that it is more fun to play with strafe jumping. But the main (and probably only) point of having more fun with strafe jumping is because of the increased feeling of speed you received from it.

If just running (or running in a special kind of way) would be made faster, or just as fast as strafe jumping, nobody would strafe jump. There's pure logic in that.

[HertogJan]

Why is everyone saying that the speed should be HIGHER?? C'mon, look at a lightsaber duel from a distance, it looks rediculous! Partly because you either

- hack 'n slash like a madman

- or strike tediously slow

 

But still, people run around in circles, in pretty high speeds and c'mon, the speed for running backwards is the same as for running forward?? It really looks insane. Everyone seems to fight like yoda in EPII... That's ok for yoda, not for everyone.

 

Instead of speeding it up, I'd say that lightsaber battles should be more controllable, instead of random...

 

Some guys here are preaching 'realism according to the movies', but they only make things faster, and thus more arcade-like... I hate that

[DSbr-HaZe]

You guys are missing the point I think:

 

strafe jumping is part of the quake engine, like it or not, jk2 was made with the quake 3 engine, hence strafe jumping came along with it. JK3 is still using the q3 engine, so it may still be there, it may be removed because of all the whining about speed cheats and the fact that they are heavily modifying the engine.

 

We don't want to see infinite amounts of ammo, the default is workable but in general its not enough, especially considering you cannot pickup a weapon twice.

 

As far as faster gameplay, I think the speed is fine, but the weapon balance would also help to add to the overall speed. Its not like we are saying INCREASE FORCE SPEED RATE BY DOUBLE.

 

As for the arguements of sabers vs. guns, save it for another day, this isn't about that, we all know the title of the game contains JEDI in it, but they wouldn't bother to mention the fact that there are guns in the game if it wasn't appealing to some people as well.

 

As far as jk1 goes, we are just mentioning that while jk1 had a ton of flaws, its gameplay was great, both sabers and guns, they weren't balanced but both modes (as long as sabers ff) were still fun. And there wasnt this whine fest RPG element to the game (ok there was but it was secluded and ignored). The game is an FPS, like it or not RPGing is not the norm in FPS. SWG will fulfill those fantasies of yours young padawans.

[WD_Rage]

For JK3, I would like to see a return to the roots of JK game play: JK1. The mechanics and game play of JK1 is, by far, superior to the mechanics and game play of JK2.

 

How to improve the game:

 

Reticule for Grip – I love the reticule, it allows for skill to reign supreme in a battle. In JK1, the person with the best grip most likely wins the match. It takes extreme precision to get a good lock and grip on a player.

 

Pull – Wow. I cannot believe Raven completely overlooked this aspect of the game. JK1 had the ability to pull any object that was useful – weapons, ammo, health, and armor. As long as I was in range, I could get any of these items from a distance. I hardly think a real Jedi would run over a weapon to pick it up. Instead, he would pull it form a distance to get to it sooner. Maybe even using a reticule would balance this power (only one thing to push). Granted, the movies show push as being able to span across many people, but this isn’t a movie.

 

Seeing – Again, Wow. Seeing had such high potential. I would like to a see a return to JK1 style seeing.

 

Mana management – Firstly, I hated JK2’s mana management. All powers cost huge amounts of mana; especially neutral powers. Secondly, there was no mana regen during the use of powers. This was essential in JK1. Put the regen back in, as well as drop the mana costs. It is stupid to be able to only use 2 powers at one time. I should be able to use speed + sight, grip people, and jump all at the same time.

 

Jump – It is way too slow. Speed it up.

 

Speed – Speed it up. It is entirely too slow.

 

Saber – Beef up the saber instead of nerfing the guns.

 

I'll think of more things. Use JK1 as a pattern. It has outlived JK2, and the game has been out for almost 6 years.

 

Edit:

Heh - Hey, Torm. Didn't see ya there.

[Zodiac]

I'm not saying everything should be faster. I just want the running forward to be much faster.

 

And yes, it's ridiculous that running forwards is just as fast as running backwards. And I've seen the duels, even with multiple players, and I don't think people are running in high speed circles. Maybe in circles yes, but not in high speed.

 

And yes, the saberbattles should be more controllable, instead of random. But they should also be speeded up by the running motions going faster. Speeding things up does not mean less control.

 

And the guys who are mostly calling for a faster and more fun game are usually the ones who oppose the 'realism according to the movies'-argumentation. They want the game to be based on good, fun, fast, frenzic, exciting, adrenalinerushing gameplay. Not on the movie.

[Darkwing]

Originally posted by Zodiac

Thanks for the very constructive arguments here.

 

Strafe Jumping is idiotic. It does not belong in a JK -Star Wars related- game, because it's ridiculous for players to hop around like that. It's a 'bug' that was never intended to be in JK2, and it never had the purpose of intentionally adding more fun to the game. Just look at CS, they removed something similar called bunny hopping from that game, because it was just moronic to see Navy Seals hop around like kangaroos. Hopping didn't suit that game-genre, and it definitely doesn't suit the SW-genre.

 

We could ask: Why do people strafe jump? and the answer would be that it is faster than just running.

People could also answer that it is more fun to play with strafe jumping. But the main (and probably only) point of having more fun with strafe jumping is because of the increased feeling of speed you received from it.

If just running (or running in a special kind of way) would be made faster, or just as fast as strafe jumping, nobody would strafe jump. There's pure logic in that.

 

Because it adds an aspect of skill, makes the game more intense and ultimatly entertaining.

 

It's one of the things that makes jk2 worth playing, removing it would leave us with an incredible dull game.

 

What you are trying to say is just plain stupid.

[Solo4114]

Ok, after wading through all 6 pages of this thread, a few things occurred to me.

 

I think you guys are going to be rather disappointed when JA is released. Look at the title: Jedi Academy. This one's gonna focus on force powers and sabre combat. There will, of course, be guns, but I suspect that a LOT of the game is going to be Jedi oriented. That doesn't mean that making suggestions is a bad idea, but I do think you're going to be disappointed in the end.

 

For my part, I don't WANT this to be a Quake-like game (yes, I know it's based on the Q3TA engine), where the force powers and sabres are "extra". You can brand me a sabreist, but I like to play something a little different from the slew of other FPS games out there. The force and sabres are what make this game different. If you took them out and just had the guns, it'd be just another quake game with rather mediocre guns.

 

You CAN balance sabres vs. guns. The ammo consumption thing is just ONE way to do it, not necessarily the best. One of the things implemented in 1.04 that I thought was actually good was the fact that you couldn't run backwards as fast as you could run forwards (at least when holding a gun). That's a step towards balance. You could also do things the way ProMod did it: give the gunners gadget access, but the sabreists force powers. IE: as a gunner, you can use shields, bacta, etc., whereas as a sabreist, you can use force powers. Gunners would not get to use force powers, sabreists would not get to use weapons or gadgets. That seems balanced to me. You can further balance things by making modes like CTF or TDM class-based. You then limit class abilities/weapons/etc. and that helps further balance thigns. HOWEVER, you could conceivably do this for certaing game modes, but leave other game modes more in the "free for all" vein. IE: you do the balancing act in one mode of CTF, or you can play FFACTF (where there are no limits or restrictions on the gear you pick up).

 

A final balancing act tool would be to make the sabre LETHAL (1 - 2 hits = kill with ANY stance) AND to make it capable of slicing through shields. This would further balance the guns v. force issue. Your sabre blade is unaffecte by shields and simply attacks health (a la kick), whereas guns still need to chip away at the shields. So, sabreists would be deadly at close range and able to close that distance with force powers, but gunners could still take them out from long range (and wouldn't have to worry about shields -- remember, sabreists get no shields).

 

Regardless, I think that different game modes would be the best way to try to appease everyone. Not everyone is going to want to play a class-based game. Not everyone is going to want to play the free for all style that evokes Quake3 and other similar games. By providing different game modes that are not limited to common weapons/sabre systems (IE: sabres in duel do less damage, or block better, whereas sabres in CTF have almost no blocking of each other, and do lethal damage). Now, whether this is actually possible or not, I have no idea. I'd like to think it is, but it may be impractical for Raven and something that the mod community will have to come up with.

 

As far as the speed issue goes, I think that many folks complaining about speed would be satisfied if the sabre were actually able to kill quickly. You could still have plenty of blocking, etc., but if you score a hit or two, that's a kill. In the meantime, your stances are simply different ways to get a hit, not stronger or weaker in terms of the damage they deal out. Personally, I don't need this game to be any faster than it is. I'm not looking to play a game where I need to be all hopped up on Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs or where I have to have just done an 8-ball in order to play effectively. I don't need to be Speedy Gonzales or The Flash when playing a video game (unless it's a Warner Bros. cartoon game or a superhero game ), so I don't really see what the big deal is with speed.

 

I also don't think that there need be quite such a division between "competitive" gamers and casual gamers. A good game can cater to both. Regardless, perhaps the BEST way to ensure a good game that satisfies most people is to release a free MP demo PRIOR to the release of the game (IE: a good couple of months prior), listen to the complaints, suggestions, etc. of the community, and try to implement them.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Hey Rage! Where you been bro? Get on messenger hax0r I was going to email you, stop haxing my mind lol. Read the whole thread. Rage, you're going over stuff I've already covered... but go ahead and say it again since people don't like to read what they reply to

 

Haze is right, even though I'd like to not see Jedi hopping around like bunnies, it's part of the engine and we'll have to live with it. Let's try to get Raven to fix what they can... Read: Return the gameplay to JK1, deviating so much from a successful game type was a gamble that didn't pay off.

[Zodiac]

I know strafe jumping is because of the Quake engine, I've played Q3 before JK2, and I do think it's a cool feature to have in Q3 , because Q3 is futuristic sci-fi without an SW/realistic background. I always thought it was part of my suit and all with jet packs and stuff and the gravity of the maps and things all having a weird effect on how i moved.

But I think it just does not fit in a JK game, because of the SW background. Now I don't know if it's even possible to replace it with an alternative move (that doesn't make the player look like a bunny) in JK3, but I think they can. CS got rid of it (yes, CS = Quake engine too), so why can't JKA? (Now some of you may be thinking, what bs, CS = HL engine. But there was this discussion here on this board, almost a year ago about the same thing and it turned out that CS's bunny hopping had something to do with the Quake-engine it was using.)

 

Originally posted by Lightwing

Because it adds an aspect of skill, makes the game more intense and ultimatly entertaining.

It adds an aspect of skill? Perhaps it does, but that same aspect of skill can be accomplished by an alternative move. Strafe jumping is basically a repetitive move you do with the mouse and the keyboard. Now there must be a good alternative for that, that doesn't make the Jedi look like a rabbit on xtc. Perhaps running in an alternative way? (the JK1 way?)

You also mention that it makes the game more intense, but you don't tell me why. Is it because of the increased speed you get? Or do you get ultimate entertainment from moving your mouse from side to side and tapping your keyboardkeys? Of course it's just cuz of the speed you get. The 2nd one is just the way to get the desired effect.

the speed-factor is what my entire argumentation was based on and so far I don't see any other reason why strafe jumping would be 'intense' and 'ultimately entertaining'. It's all about going faster, gaining more speed, accelerating.

 

It's one of the things that makes jk2 worth playing, removing it would leave us with an incredible dull game.

Well yes! but that is because JK2 doesn't have an alternative to getting real fast. JKA could do without strafe jumping if it'd have an alternative.

 

What you are trying to say is just plain stupid.

I focused on the thing why people were strafe jumping in the first place, and suggested an alternative for getting the same desired effect, so strafe jumping could be removed in JKA. I don't see how thinking of an alternative, and backing it up with some relative logical arguments can be considered stupid. Maybe I'm a bit too demanding for Raven and its crew (maybe they dunno how to remove it), but if they read this post and are able to remove it, they at least have an idea how to replace the kangarooing with a better alternative.

[WD_Rage]

Solo4114,

 

What's the difference with names? Jedi Academy has the same game play implications as Jedi Knight or Jedi Knight 2. While much of the SP will be based upon Jedi Training, our gripe is with MP - which we all should know by now that are two entirely different components (hell, even in JK1 SP and MP were different game play wise).

 

We are not saying we want this game to be Quake-like. We want this game to be better than JK2, and most of our ideas come JK1 - which was the furthest away from Quake-like play. Force and sabers have always set the JK series apart from traditional FPSs. Do not assume we all love guns - I was a FF Saberist in my JK1 days.

 

Yes, balancing sabers and guns is very possible. However, I believe that Raven chose the worst way of doing it. I found that increasing saber damage eliminates most balancing issues. Look at JK1: A hit with the saber could leave you with only 2 health while starting off with default health/shields. It was deadly, and I know many players that could hold their own in FF Oasis using force and saber. Gunners (yeah, I'm a gunner now because using the saber sucks in JK2) should have access to all force powers. Part of what made JK1 great was the fact that saberist or gunner, you had the same force powers to choose from. It just all came down to preference. Gunners want force too, not a gadget.

 

As far as the speed issue goes, I think that many folks complaining about speed would be satisfied if the sabre were actually able to kill quickly. You could still have plenty of blocking, etc., but if you score a hit or two, that's a kill.

 

No, our gripe with speed is the game is too slow, even when force speed is used. Going from one end of Yavin to the other, even with force speed, takes entirely too long. Its boring, dull, and sleep provoking.

 

Solo4114, let us look at a few things:

 

1. JK1 is still alive (barely), but even after 2 years the game was still very strong.

 

2. JK2 is very dead after its first year. The game has lost at least 3/4 of the people that were playing it this time last year, and hardly any new players are coming.

 

3. There is only a sequel because people many people bought JK2. They're not making this for the droves of people that play it (yeah, that was sarcasm). In order for ANY game in the JK series to survive and be remembered, it must follow the game play (although not exactly - that would be boring) set in JK1.

 

Hiya, Torm. I've been around. Just getting alot of work done. As for getting on MSN, I can't right now. I'm at the office and the routers and proxy block out access to Messenger. I'll get on around lunch-time, though. Don't you know I always reply without reading what others have said? BTW, bow before C# .

[Necrosis]

[Edit Taos - How about we be nice to each other, thanks. ]

 

 

Improving the gun games will make alot more people want to play the game (ie. people from quake and cs), thus raven makes more money.

 

How does the name mean it's going to be ALL out sabers? You'd think Jedi Knight 2 would be like that also by just going by the name.

 

Sure, SP should probably focus a little more on saber to make the star wars fans happy. But MP must have a solid gun game. Another game like jk2 will make Raven lose the gunners that jk2 in JA.

 

The biggest problem with jk2 saber battles were how repetitve they all were. You coulden't watch any duel and say "hey that was a sweet move" because everyone does the exact same thing, thus, not making any competition. Adding more combos and stances won't do anything, the same thing will happen. People will find some way to be "cheap", people will complain, and the game dies.

 

 

Raven has to make more balance in the gunplay, the only worthwhile gun to pick up when playing vs pros were rockets, repeater, flak (which just got spammed), add more "cool" yet usefull moves and more FREE (no, not like it costs nothing) movement.

 

Doesn't look like the saber battles are going to be much different in JA than jk3. Same system, just more combos and stances.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alarm]

Originally posted by Zodiac

I know strafe jumping is because of the Quake engine, I've played Q3 before JK2, and I do think it's a cool feature to have in Q3 , because Q3 is futuristic sci-fi without an SW/realistic background. I always thought it was part of my suit and all with jet packs and stuff and the gravity of the maps and things all having a weird effect on how i moved.

 

ahahahahaha, strafe jumping doesnt make sense ANYWHERE(what jet pack?). SW= realistic? rofl

[WD_Rage]

Strafe Jumping:

 

JK1 did not have strafe jumping. It wasn't necessary. Force speed was ample to get around a map. Take out strafe jumping and give us good speed.

[Agen]

Wow, some great posts have been made bringing up some grea posts. Legion, make sure you get most of this stuff in.

 

The Grip/pull reticule should be brought back rather than jsut facing in their direction to grip em etc. Drain might have been a bad idea on raven part as it is probably really hard to balance.

 

Also i think that's it's entirely possible to balance the guns and the sabers, if Raven take time to test and test their system, it doesn't have to be terribly different, all it needs is getting it right with trial and error. Beta Testers woudl be a great way to find out.

 

Like an awful lot of people here i think we need more speed in the game, especially force speed, in jk it was very fast with a giant learning curve which made it fun spending time trying to master it without crushing your nose off the wall and killing yourself. And perhaps strong stance should be an alternate to jk1's secondary saber fire but when you swing you leave yourself a huge gap to be hit in.

 

yeah, I'm a gunner now because using the saber sucks in JK2

 

Heh i'm the other way round Not because i think gun suck but i knew people who i coulld paly sabs with.

 

Maybe a manual blocking system is an option too but it's probably far too late to add it in now. in singleplayer any.

[WD_Rage]

And perhaps strong stance should be an alternate to jk1's secondary saber fire but when you swing you leave yourself a huge gap to be hit in.

 

Strong stance, though, is extremely, extremely slow. In JK1, the swing really wasn't much slower than the primary swing. The swing itself took longer, but it did not slow down the player.

[Matariel]

i think you guys are missing the point entirely! ppl saying 'remove strafe jump!', what the hell? are you saying, 'make it physically impossible to jump and move to one side'? thats ludicrous! if i wanted to dodge something, thats the first thing i'd do! apart from cowering behind something large and firmish...And i thought the forward roll was faster moving than that anyway.

Another thing, any saber changes should be about GAME BALANCE, this goes for weapons too. Pull backstab was taken out because it made the game UNBALANCED. It made killing ppl a one shot affair, which is stupid and nothing like how we see jedi fight in the films.

This is what makes a good game, challenging duels, exciting gameplay. Dieing every two seconds is neither.

So, speed up the game? Bugger off. Well, speed up the rate of killings, bugger off. Speed up saber duels, lengthwise, bugger off. Speed up duels, saber movement speed and amount of moves capable in a certain space, hell yeah. Force speed was only cool in SP, because you kept at the same speed while the world slowed around you. In MP its just another all too common 'hack-n-slash' affair.

That is not skilled playing. I want a game that requires real skill, not some cheap way of quickly killing an opponent. I want a challenge in a duel, where you can really test your opponent, not stab him in the face, or kill him with one shot of the red-stance.

[contender]

Originally posted by Zodiac

Thanks for the very constructive arguments here.

 

Strafe Jumping is idiotic. It does not belong in a JK -Star Wars related- game, because it's ridiculous for players to hop around like that. It's a 'bug' that was never intended to be in JK2, and it never had the purpose of intentionally adding more fun to the game. Just look at CS, they removed something similar called bunny hopping from that game, because it was just moronic to see Navy Seals hop around like kangaroos. Hopping didn't suit that game-genre, and it definitely doesn't suit the SW-genre.

 

We could of course go with the really stupid argument here: CS was a realism game, based in modern times. People knew that soldiers don't bounce around. For Jk2, unless I'm mistaken, you or anyone on these forums didn't live 'a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away.' Therefore you don't know what is ridiculous for the Star Wars world.

 

Seriously though, in my opinion, Strafe Jumping brought one of the only aspects of skill to the game. It was one of the seperating factors in competive play. I used to record demos of old pickup games and the progression of the entire community towards strafe-jumping was amazingly slow. I remember why DSbr was so dominant, especially early on. They could strafe jump, and circle jump, everyone else was 'running' or maybe bunnyhopping the open areas. The first DSbr pickup I went to, I saw speed + rage and the strafe jump, amazingly fast. The gap had drawn closer recently as more players learned to strafe jump, but DSbr still had the advantage of lots of FPS skill.

 

Strafe jump is no bug, its built into the q3 engine. Remove strafe jumping, and Raven removes one of the few differentiating factors between newbs and experts.

 

It reminds me of another game you might know of. Day of Defeat, another Half Life MOD. Beta 1.3 of DoD was quite possibly the best game I've ever played. You could outfrag the other team and win, or be smart and win. Individual skill was rewarded. When beta 2.0 came out, it included sprint and machine guns, now camping was the easy way to score kills, skill at rushing the enemy base was eliminted by the rookie camper. A lot of teams quit, because it paid off if you camped, rather than rushed for flags.

 

I'm not saying that if Raven removes Strafe Jump they'll kill part of the game. I'm saying that if they remove the Strafe Jump they'll need to include another aspect of gameplay to differentiate newbs and the more experienced players.