American Indians and other peoples

[CagedCrado]

Well a while back (in south dakota) a drunken indian man attacked a police officer with a knife, the police officer shot the man with his 9mm and coincidentally the man died. Now a small minority of american indians (which is the politically correct term for native americans) is protesting against the state/city by boycotting wal mart and mcdonalds. When i first heard this i thought it had to be a joke. Ill clear up some common misconceptions about american indians, then id like to hear what people on the outside world know about this because its not often you hear about native americans in the news (or maybe its just the war, who knows, or that they arent violent)

 

Anyway:

American indians get free cars, and free houses. They also receive free medical and quite a large pay check each month. Oh ya and their OWN college. All government funded of course. Per capita, more money is spent on the native americans in south dakota than any other group in the country. There is about 80,000 of them and probably half of them leach off the government. On the other hand they are probably some of the hardest workers i know, they work with a lot of determination. They also care about their families and extended traditional families a lot more than average people in the US. In a traditional native american family there can be many members, and you can have more than one mother or father. They are more like close friends of your parents that have taken care of you or older members of the tribe. Lakota is taught in schools on and off the reservation and the only right that has been suspended is drinking, because of the problem of alchohalism, aids, and poverty on the reservation.

 

The conditions on the reservation are poor, but only because the people do not typically maintain their property. I dont know why and i cant really comprehend this, but dont get me wrong, there are some very large and impressive ranches on the reservation.

 

I dont have any deep inside knowledge on any other minorities, but id like to hear about them. Id also like to hear from people who live in the south west about asian minorities, we dont hear much about them either.

[SkinWalker]

What I see is a lot of self-justification for your own feelings of hatred and bigotry.

 

You don't see some of the few advantages that our indigenous people have as even the remotest reparation for one of the world's worst genocides?

 

Still, I'm sure that generations of justification for racism and bigotry are not easily overcome. But, hey... like you said, you're not racist, you have friends that are Indian, right?

 

I've got an uncle that uses that same method of justification about black people. He's a bigot, too.

[Tyrion]

Originally posted by CagedCrado

Now a small minority of american indians (which is the politically correct term for native americans) is protesting against the state/city by boycotting wal mart and mcdonalds.

 

Ok..you blame American Indian's because of some people's actions? Well, what about if a South Dakota white man get's a gun, tries to shoot a police officer, and misses, but the police officer shoots and kills him. However, a small minority of whites protests by boycotting Best Buy and Buger King,

 

Which sounds better to you,hmm?

[Zodiac]

Did he have to kill him? Couldn't the policeman just disable him by shooting him in the leg/arm/hand/foot?

 

Perhaps those people are just protesting because the policeman didn't make the right choice by killing the man with the knife, if he also had the option to just disable him.

[griff38]

Hey, here is an Indian story for you,

 

" During the rescue of Pvt. Lynch several dead American soldiers bodies were recovered. Including the 1rst US Female soldier killed in this war.

 

This is who she was.

 

Pfc. Lori Ann Piestewa, 23, of Tuba City, Ariz. Piestewa, a HOPI American Indian woman, she was also the mother of a 4-year-old boy and a 3-year-old girl."

 

 

Damn, bet if she knew she could get a free car, free medical, free large paychecks and her own college she would not have joined and put her life on the line for her fellow citizens, like you Huh?

 

Some of Griffs ancestors visited him last night, and now he is on the warpath.

 

Viva la Chiapas!!!

[CagedCrado]

Honestly, its not bigotry, its a certain type of personality, not people that i dont like. I hate white bums, black bums, i dont descriminate.

[ET Warrior]

You hate all bums, it's just that you've chosen to single out the native american bums why?

[munik]

I live near the Onieda indian reservation. I also work for the Onieda Nation. I don't dislike them as individuals, but I have some gripes with the Nation as a whole. Mostly it's the crying about sovereignty, and the lawsuit against the state for an assload of the land in the state. Oh, and refusing to pay taxes, yet still using the services and conveniences that the taxes provide.

 

But they pay my bills, so they can't piss me off too much I reckon.

 

 

Also, nobody cares what the "P.C." thing is to call indians. We call 'em indians, indians call themselves indians. It's not like it's some insult. Get over yourself.

[ET Warrior]

The only reason I dont call em indians is because they're not from India. I get confused if I call Native Americans Indians, and People from India Indians.....how does one know what one is talking about?

[munik]

Just depends on what group you interact with more often. They would get the title of Indian, and the other group whatever. For me, I see natives more often, so they get to be indians. People from india get the unique title of "Indians from India".

 

That's how me and my wife do it, pretty simple. Native Americans seems pretty lame to me because we got two continents that are called America. But only those natives that live within the boundaries of the U.S. (incidentally, those were made within the past couple hundred years) are called Native Americans. All the other native americans that are found outside of the U.S. have different names.

 

Now that I think of it, if we don't call them indians, we call them whatever tribe they are from, Oneida, Mohawk, Seneca, etc. There are only like five tribes in the Iroquois Confederacy so we got all the names covered. Not confusing at all.

[SkinWalker]

Ahh... that last bit is what I was about to point out. True, the terminology means more to "non-Indians" than to Indians. My Indian friends all refer to each other as "Indian" or "Natives" when they speak to "non-Indians" but by their nation when speaking to each other.

 

I know some Crow, Sioux, and Cherokee. They prefer to live simple egalitarian lives, but the rest of society sees this as non-conformist and seems offended that they don't aspire to "be more." The rest of society revere's wealth differently than they.

 

Still, Indians are human. There are those among them that live their lives inappropriately in the eyes of both societies (commiting crimes, etc.). They do it because they're human, not because they're not white. I work with juvenile delinquents and the primary demographic is minority due to socio-economic reasons, not race. Consequently, I'm often overly sensitive to generalisms about races based on the actions of a few or of those who have few opportunities available to them.

 

The thing about Indians living poor is a matter of perception. It depends upon how one measures wealth. Some measure it by a nice car and well-manicured lawn. Others measure it by how much you can give to your families and friends.

[BigTeddyPaul]

Mind you I am speaking out of my ass here since I am an ignorant white guy from California here and know little on tis subject.

 

The reason I call Native Americans Native Americans is becuase what would I call people from India. That is pretty good logic to me.

 

Do they honestly get cars and houses and the rest? I am sure the governemt does help them out in building moderate housing but no 500,000 dollar houses or anything. The same about the cars. Any of them getting 80,000 dollar cars? I think not.

 

The only time I see NA lifestyles if from hockey or the occassionaly 60 minute type thingy. There are some NA hockey people (Simon and Cassidy) who are NA and their states were pretty poor until they started some funding to get a better lifestlye. Their state of affaris seemed pretty poor too.

 

I don't see why helping a community of poor people is so wrong anyways. If we can spend 80 billion to help non-Americans why cant we spend a few million on our own?

 

BigTeddyPaul

[ShockV1.89]

I think it's wrong because, in many cases, they arent doing anything for themselves. Why should be throw a million dollars to a people that are just going to use it up and beg for more? No, if I'm gonna give them all that money, then I'd better see that money going to good use. It didnt? No more money to you. Dont whine, you had your chance and you blew it.

 

And as for the "It's the least we can do in reparation for what happened to their culture." I dont buy that. I respond to that in the same way that I would to people asking for black reparations: I didnt do it, so dont make me pay for it. Yes, it was horrible. Yes, it never should have happened. But it didnt happen to you and I didnt do it. So dont blame me.

[griff38]

Well having a huge goverment that can throw billions at a war, give some back to the original people whos land our goverment stole in many many many cases, is ok with me. Do you have any idea how many times the US gov broke treaties, lied, and cheated the people who entered into these negotiations out of good faith?

 

Another reason to be ashamed of our goverment.

 

I agree that people living today are not responsible for these crimes but we all enjoy this land that belonged to them.

 

A little pay back for these people does not hurt you at all.

[munik]

There are many different indians throughout the U.S. A statement about one tribe in your state cannot be applied to all tribes in this country. I don't think indians get those free houses and cars, unless that is a South Dakota thing. It sure isn't a federal government thing. The BIA does provide funding for tribes all across the U.S. though. The Onieda tribe, the indians I live close to, return all the money the BIA sends them back to the federal government. They do not keep or use any federal funding. They have a few businesses that generate enough money to fund any social services the tribe may need.

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by CagedCrado

American indians get free cars, and free houses. They also receive free medical and quite a large pay check each month. Oh ya and their OWN college. All government funded of course. Per capita, more money is spent on the native americans in south dakota than any other group in the country. There is about 80,000 of them and probably half of them leach off the government.

ha thats a lie first native americans dont get free cars they have to pay for their houses by working on the reservations they get their own college because noone else wants them because they are biggots like you. they aren't governmently funded they are paid for by the indian casino's on the reservation. I have an uncle that lives on the reservation he has to work more hours than a brain and heart surgeon. he gets paid about as much as a mexican construction worker who is here illegally. he also works at the casino. and there are less than 80,000 native americans. none of them leach off the government the only thing they got for free was the reservation areas which are quite small.

[ShockV1.89]

Originally posted by griff38

Well having a huge goverment that can throw billions at a war, give some back to the original people whos land our goverment stole in many many many cases, is ok with me. Do you have any idea how many times the US gov broke treaties, lied, and cheated the people who entered into these negotiations out of good faith?

 

Another reason to be ashamed of our goverment.

 

I agree that people living today are not responsible for these crimes but we all enjoy this land that belonged to them.

 

A little pay back for these people does not hurt you at all.

 

By your thinking, I should get a certain degree of reparations because I'm Irish. After all, my people went through a whole lot of crap when they arrived.

 

But I didnt go through it, so I would never expect to get cash or support from the government simply because I'm Irish. Just like none of the Indians living today deserve reparations because of something that happened over 100 years ago. Because it didnt happen to them.

 

Believe it or not, it's the same thinking that people use for that "black reparations" crap. It's quite racist, even if the intentions are good.

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by ShockV1.89

By your thinking, I should get a certain degree of reparations because I'm Irish. After all, my people went through a whole lot of crap when they arrived.

 

But I didnt go through it, so I would never expect to get cash or support from the government simply because I'm Irish. Just like none of the Indians living today deserve reparations because of something that happened over 100 years ago. Because it didnt happen to them.

 

Believe it or not, it's the same thinking that people use for that "black reparations" crap. It's quite racist, even if the intentions are good.

yeah but they were to inheiret the land from their ancestors therefor they deserve something also you should get money back because every irish person was robbed of their valuables that were to possibly be passed down to family members. just something for you to think about.

[Darth Groovy]

I am rather suprised that nobody mentioned that the soil that the United States is sitting on right now once belonged to several separate tribes of Native Americans. At no point in history did they make the long journey to England, and butcher people, take there resources, or force they're religious beliefs upon us. What did we do? We did the USA do? They took all that was once there's in the name of God and country. I see the funds that the country provides for them now, is a poor substitute for something that can never be returned to them. To quote Apocalypse Now "we cut them in two and hand them a band aid, it was a joke".

 

The USA can never pay back the Native American for what we took from them. The same goes for the African Americans we once enslaved, and the Asian Americans we imprisioned during WWII. Free medical, and government funds can scarcely make up for these attrocities.

 

The very least thing they can do now is leave them alone, and try to help them as much as they can.

[ShockV1.89]

Yes, lets pay them back. Instead of taking their lands away or enslaving them, we'll just give them whatever they want and not make them work for the same things that everyone else has to work for. Lets jack up the taxes on everyone else because the US gov't took tribal lands or took slaves hundreds of years ago.

 

Who cares that I never did any of that, and the lands were never taken from any native americans living today, nor was any black person alive today enslaved. I mean, I should be made to pay for the sins of the fathers, and those who were never abused by them should reap the rewards.

 

I dont know what people expect. Do you think you're doing these people a service by holding them up and babying them? You're not. You're spoiling them into thinking that because of their race, they can get away with anything, and are somehow entitled to more than anyone else.

 

Doesnt make sense to me. I simply repeat what I said above...

 

But I didnt go through it, so I would never expect to get cash or support from the government simply because I'm Irish. Just like none of the Indians living today deserve reparations because of something that happened over 100 years ago. Because it didnt happen to them.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by ShockV1.89

Yes, lets pay them back. Instead of taking their lands away or enslaving them, we'll just give them whatever they want and not make them work for the same things that everyone else has to work for.

 

Well that's obviously not happening... they want their lands back, free of the white people. Or at least they did. I think now they just want legitimacy. They no longer wish to be a marginalized society. They want to be free from ridicule and racism. They want respect. Some of them have these things. Most of the few hundred thousand Indians remaining in the United States that once hosted millions have neither of these things.

 

Of the 371 treaties that the government signed with the Indians between 1778 and 1871, all have been violated. In many cases, by military intervention. There were once over 500 Nations of "Indians" living north of modern-day Mexico, totaling 8 - 15 million people. That's a lot of people for that period in time. They didn't know they were "Indian" but rather Souix, Crow, Cherakee, Chincoteage, Apache..... just as they're invaders considered themselves Spanairds, English, French, Portaguese, Dutch, etc.

 

Today, there's only 100,000 - 200,000 Native Americans that still honor their traditions. U.S. Census lists nearly 1,700,000, but most of these are fully integrated into "mainstream" society and know little about their ancestors. I'm one of these.

 

Native American culture was as diverse as modern European culture- some nations were peaceful and others were warlike, some were nomadic and others sedentary, some ate meat and others were vegetarian, some had sophisticated government structures and others were governed by community, some were hunters and gatherers and others were farmers, etc.

 

What they didn't have was greed. In nearly every of the 371 broken treaties, land and resources were the incentive. The Indian was dessimated by the introduction, many times on purpose, of diseases such as small pox (the original weapon of mass destruction). They were then out-gunned by repeater rifles against their bows and spears. The Gatlin Gun helped finish the job, but the true breaking of the Native American came with the near extinction of the Buffalo. An animal that is sacred to the Indian since it provided food, clothing, shelter and guidance.

 

Sitting Bull, the Great Apostle, made his stand along with Crazy Horse in the Black Hills of South Dakota. They had NO WHERE ELSE TO GO BUT DIE. The white man wanted the gold that was discovered there 1862 and needed it desparately, as the Panic of 1873 threatened to topple the U.S. government. The Indian just wanted to live.

 

Little Big Horn ocurred as the nations came together to decide a course of action. It was decided for them as Custer bumbled in like a fool. Custer was neither the hero nor the villian of Little Big Horn... he was the idiot. He was as marginalized by the government as the indian. Expecting a few hundred warriors, he found a few thousand. Crazy Horse said, "it is a good day to die," and so Custer did. Ironically, his horse survived. It was named "Commanche."

 

Who cares that I never did any of that, and the lands were never taken from any native americans living today, nor was any black person alive today enslaved. I mean, I should be made to pay for the sins of the fathers, and those who were never abused by them should reap the rewards.

 

No. But these people are still marginalized to this day. African Americans are being shot with wallets in their hands because the police expected a handgun. African Americans cannot get taxis in New York, while whites have no problem. Native Americans... "Indians" endure ridicule at each Redskins game... They travel the U.S. and see streets and rivers named after their Nations, the only reminder of what once was.... They learn how vicious the Redman was in public school history classes, if they learn anything at all. I wonder how a team that named themselves the Crackers and dressed in white uniforms would go over? Or perhaps a football team that was called the Black Sambos? You didn't do any of the the killing, removing, oppressing... but we do the marginalizing, excluding, forgetting every day.

 

Originally posted by ShockV1.89

I dont know what people expect. Do you think you're doing these people a service by holding them up and babying them?

 

I still don't see how they're babied. You see another person make a post about how much the government gives them and perhaps have an expectation of this based on welfare practices of our nation... do a little research. See what the expenditures are of the federal budget for Native Americans and compare that to the expeditures for all other allocations. The single best advantage that Native Americans get is in tax breaks. That is because they are considered sovereign. They are of another nation. But that is their only mark of sovereignty... in all other consideration they are subject to U.S. laws...

 

Originally posted by ShockV1.89

You're not. You're spoiling them into thinking that because of their race, they can get away with anything, and are somehow entitled to more than anyone else.

 

There's no scientific basis for race as a typology in human beings. And we proved to the Indian that he cannot get away with anything we don't want him to. 15 million - 1.6 million = 13.4 million exterminated. The situation is under control.

 

Originally posted by ShockV1.89

Doesnt make sense to me.

 

Nor to I, though we have different contexts for that phrase.

 

Aho.

[CagedCrado]

Well i dont know about every native american, but the Lakota DO. Not all of them, actually i think there is a lot of corruption. The reason i single out these particular bums is because they are here, simple as that. Some of the actions the reservation government makes is really stupid and i cant stand it. The people as individuals are fine, its just extremists i dont like. Like i hate muslim fundamentalists but i think muslims are fine.

[ShockV1.89]

Skinwalker, I was more referring to the US gov't holding up and coddling minorities in general, particularly african americans. The topic sort of switched to the "other peoples" portion, and I have a sore spot with black people screaming racism at every turn and using it to get stuff. So I commented.

 

As for the native americans losing their land and such... It sucks, but thats how these things worked back then. Doesnt make it right, but I dont see why we shoudl be made to pay for it right now.

 

I think now they just want legitimacy. They no longer wish to be a marginalized society. They want to be free from ridicule and racism. They want respect. Some of them have these things. Most of the few hundred thousand Indians remaining in the United States that once hosted millions have neither of these things.

 

No ethnic group will be completely free of any of the negatives mentioned, and will never have all the respect they want. Heck, I'm white and I feel like there's a flow of racism against me. I'm Irish, and I knew there was bigtime racism against me in multiple countries.

 

What respect you gain, must be earned. Personally, I dont accept the excuse of "My people were put down 150 years ago, thats why I cant get ahead!" Bull. Thats giving up. If you think you have it so hard, then try harder. Dont whine for extra help and scream racism at every turn.

[El Sitherino]

the native cheifs that live now were to inheirit it. thats theft and if you can give back what was stolen then do so you don't have to pay just let the native american nation take back their land and let it be at that. the cheifs only want the land which is rightfully theirs (the land is sacred to us because it is mother earth she gave us life and we must guard her from ourselves namely the ignorant) i dont want money i just want the right thing to be done i want my uncle's friend to get his ancestors land back. it was to be his inheiritance. just like say your great great grandfather had a watch stolen. this watch was passed down and a lady who is the descendant of the theif found you and returned it because it was your's to inheirit. wouldn't you want it back? just for the sake of that it's a family heirloom. i would and i know that the cheifs of the native nation want their families (tribe's) land back. they don't want money they want their land and respect.

[Darth Groovy]

Originally posted by SkinWalker

Well that's obviously not happening... they want their lands back, free of the white people. Or at least they did. I think now they just want legitimacy. They no longer wish to be a marginalized society. They want to be free from ridicule and racism. They want respect. Some of them have these things. Most of the few hundred thousand Indians remaining in the United States that once hosted millions have neither of these things.

 

Of the 371 treaties that the government signed with the Indians between 1778 and 1871, all have been violated. In many cases, by military intervention. There were once over 500 Nations of "Indians" living north of modern-day Mexico, totaling 8 - 15 million people. That's a lot of people for that period in time. They didn't know they were "Indian" but rather Souix, Crow, Cherakee, Chincoteage, Apache..... just as they're invaders considered themselves Spanairds, English, French, Portaguese, Dutch, etc.

 

Today, there's only 100,000 - 200,000 Native Americans that still honor their traditions. U.S. Census lists nearly 1,700,000, but most of these are fully integrated into "mainstream" society and know little about their ancestors. I'm one of these.

 

Native American culture was as diverse as modern European culture- some nations were peaceful and others were warlike, some were nomadic and others sedentary, some ate meat and others were vegetarian, some had sophisticated government structures and others were governed by community, some were hunters and gatherers and others were farmers, etc.

 

What they didn't have was greed. In nearly every of the 371 broken treaties, land and resources were the incentive. The Indian was dessimated by the introduction, many times on purpose, of diseases such as small pox (the original weapon of mass destruction). They were then out-gunned by repeater rifles against their bows and spears. The Gatlin Gun helped finish the job, but the true breaking of the Native American came with the near extinction of the Buffalo. An animal that is sacred to the Indian since it provided food, clothing, shelter and guidance.

 

Sitting Bull, the Great Apostle, made his stand along with Crazy Horse in the Black Hills of South Dakota. They had NO WHERE ELSE TO GO BUT DIE. The white man wanted the gold that was discovered there 1862 and needed it desparately, as the Panic of 1873 threatened to topple the U.S. government. The Indian just wanted to live.

 

Little Big Horn ocurred as the nations came together to decide a course of action. It was decided for them as Custer bumbled in like a fool. Custer was neither the hero nor the villian of Little Big Horn... he was the idiot. He was as marginalized by the government as the indian. Expecting a few hundred warriors, he found a few thousand. Crazy Horse said, "it is a good day to die," and so Custer did. Ironically, his horse survived. It was named "Commanche."

 

Who cares that I never did any of that, and the lands were never taken from any native americans living today, nor was any black person alive today enslaved. I mean, I should be made to pay for the sins of the fathers, and those who were never abused by them should reap the rewards.

 

No. But these people are still marginalized to this day. African Americans are being shot with wallets in their hands because the police expected a handgun. African Americans cannot get taxis in New York, while whites have no problem. Native Americans... "Indians" endure ridicule at each Redskins game... They travel the U.S. and see streets and rivers named after their Nations, the only reminder of what once was.... They learn how vicious the Redman was in public school history classes, if they learn anything at all. I wonder how a team that named themselves the Crackers and dressed in white uniforms would go over? Or perhaps a football team that was called the Black Sambos? You didn't do any of the the killing, removing, oppressing... but we do the marginalizing, excluding, forgetting every day.

 

 

 

I still don't see how they're babied. You see another person make a post about how much the government gives them and perhaps have an expectation of this based on welfare practices of our nation... do a little research. See what the expenditures are of the federal budget for Native Americans and compare that to the expeditures for all other allocations. The single best advantage that Native Americans get is in tax breaks. That is because they are considered sovereign. They are of another nation. But that is their only mark of sovereignty... in all other consideration they are subject to U.S. laws...

 

 

 

There's no scientific basis for race as a typology in human beings. And we proved to the Indian that he cannot get away with anything we don't want him to. 15 million - 1.6 million = 13.4 million exterminated. The situation is under control.

 

 

 

Nor to I, though we have different contexts for that phrase.

 

Aho.

 

Thank you Skinwalker, for that well thougt out post, it was both moving and inspirational. I hope for the US, and the Native Americans to someday come to truce with one another, but in this day and age, I unfortunately do not see that happening. We seeked refuge, in a land that rightfully belonged to you, it still saddens me how we went about doing that. At one point we called you savages, and then we declared war upon you. We were no better than the spanish conquistidors that overpowered the Mayans and Incas with gunpowder. We had no right to do that.

 

We had no right to enslave African Americans, that incident, as long ago as it was, makes me ashamed of being Caucasion, but in recent days, I learned I had some Sioux blood in me, not that it makes any difference. Knowing first hand from freinds of mine how hard it is for a young adolescent African American to make his/her dreams come true in this day and age, upsets me, and I feel Government funding should continue.

 

There are extremists on all sides, I know this. I get horribly upset when African Americans claim predjudice when they don't get their way, but it is a touchy issue. It will never be resolved.

 

When it comes to Native Americans, I am still deeply saddened. Considering an African American has more rights than the average caucasion or Native American. An African American has the full right to go back to his/her homeland, but why don't they? Simple... Free Enterprise. They know they have better chances surviving in America.

 

Native Americans however, no longer have a land they can call thier own. We now control it, and I scarely see how a few reservations can compinsate for this outrage. The USA, will never surrender it's now controlled soil to a supressed poeple. We think we can justify our past mistakes by giving them tid bits here and ther. It just doesn't make any sense. And the near extiction of the Buffalo, further proves my point.

 

I see no reason what so ever to stop any kind of government funding any time in the near future, and I don't think we can ever pay for the crimes of the past. Sorry, but this is where I stand, and for the crimes of my ancestors, I will remain ever so regretful. Always, until the day I die.