Zoom Rabbit Posted April 13, 2003 Share Posted April 13, 2003 This has nothing to do with politics, or even whether the US invasion of Iraq was justified. The United States has committed a serious crime against humanity in the unfolding of its policy in the streets of Baghdad. Never mind the lack of civil control following the overthrow of the preexisting authorities and loss of life and property that inevitably coincide, the crime to which I refer is one against the known history of humanity. Our history bemoans to loss of the ancient library of Alexandria because in that one loss, so much of our previous literature was lost...imagine how history will view the loss if 170,000 irreplaceable Sumerian and Babylonian antiquities in the chaotic days that followed our invasion of Baghdad. That's right. The Iraqi museum housing most of the world's collection of artifacts from the very first known human civilization has been completely looted, and 170,000 ancient artifacts are missing. When US marines entered the area, they were pleaded with to guard the museum against looting; they chased off some looters and stuck around for thirty minutes, but after they'd gone--of course--the looters returned. Now the museum is a gutted shell, and an archaeological chapter (the very first chapter, even) of human history is lost to our knowledge. Some few of those artifacts will, no doubt, turn up on the black market...but for the most part, they will be stashed away in private collections (at best) and never made available for study again. We will never know all of what we lost in that museum. As a taxpaying American citizen, and a veteran, I am outraged by my government's conduct in this matter. That museum should have been one of the first areas of Baghdad to come under US control, specifically to prevent a tragedy such as this! I cannot imagine that they deliberately chose to sacrifice that collection, but must chalk it up to ineptitude...ineptitude of a criminal sort which has cost our entire species. I'll get off the soapbox now. One smilie, though it ain't a happy one: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted April 13, 2003 Share Posted April 13, 2003 Well, if you choose to believe our defense secretary the looting isn't nearly as bad as the media is making it out to be. This is a terrible tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue15 Posted April 13, 2003 Share Posted April 13, 2003 that sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabba The Hunt Posted April 13, 2003 Share Posted April 13, 2003 I'm sorry but i disagree with you on this. I agree that keeping artifacts safe is important, but not when that may cost you even one human life. The marines have been very busy securing their headquaters and searching out remaining pockets of resistance. If we don't get rid of the resistance then these pockets are likely hide away and attack when Iraq will be at it's weakest (I think just as the marines withdraw). Either way although it's disapointing, I don't think the marines should have protected it. Someone would probably have pointed out at this point tha there are plenty of marines avalible to guard areas like that, however remember the marines have spent atleast the last three weeks with little sleep and all but the most basic food. I think they deserve a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Beastie Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 I've been avoiding war/politics threads to avoid the inevitable flame-wars (and the equally inevitable Neimoidian ), but I'll weigh in briefly on this one. First, I'm inevitably more concerned with the civilians (and, yes, their possessions/property/households) than I am with the soldiers of either side. It has nothing to do with what I think of this war, or of war in general, really, as much as what I think of soldiers. These people are (for good or ill), prepared to die for their cause. If they were not, than they don't belong on the battlefield. The civilians OTOH, are not prepared to die; which is why any responsible soldier --anyone worthy of being an actual "warrior" (as opposed to a government-trained walking weapon) should do whatever is possible to minimize collateral damage. I accept that the Iraqi forces are fighting a religious war in which anything seems to go, but if the US and its allies want history to remember them as the Good Guys, they should be making some effort. Unfortunately, human nature has not changed since the first hominid picked up a rock to break another hominid's skull for stealing his food. When you put humans in a combat situation, it becomes a matter of uncontrolled adrenaline. Soldiers are trained not to think, but to just kill the enemy (which is exactly why I blame the commanders more than the soldiers --the "grunts" are just products of an impersonal military/industrial manufacturing training program). Any losses not counted in "our" lives (whoever "we" may be) are irrelevant. But if not to preserve the lifestyle and the history of these people, exactly what are the US forces trying to do? Trying to rescue the Iraqi people from a despotic (and quite possibly power-mad) ruler? Fine; I'd help if I could. It's the method I have a problem with. They're getting dangerously close to the point of "destroying Iraq in order to save it," which is the point where the entire operation becomes more trouble than its worth. Originally posted by Zoom Rabbit I cannot imagine that they deliberately chose to sacrifice that collection, but must chalk it up to ineptitude...ineptitude of a criminal sort which has cost our entire species. Of course it wasn't deliberate. Deliberation would've required that somebody actually notice something beyond inflicting/receiving casualties and nationalistic rhetoric. I'll be relurking now, so don't bother flaming me; it would gain us nothing but unneccessary bad feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylilin Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 Let me see...as a Bachelor of Arts in the field of History, I agree that it is a shame that a museum was looted. We will never be able to recover its full contents. Just thinking about how much insight into ancient Sumeria and Babylonia, to name a few, we would gain makes me shudder with delight. And while my reasoning as a History buff, and a college educated "adult" thinks it is a shame. My upbringing as someone who has been well versed in the intellect of curb (street smarts for those who don't know I grew up in the streets of NYC) tells me that this is really not that big a deal. Maybe some of the people who stole can sell the items to feed their family, and that is never a crime. And at least no one died, its always a good day when that happens. It would be an even bigger shame if someone had to die over a 5,000 year old wine jug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynk Former Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 People would die for their work, protecting your lifes work and the history of humanity is an important thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nute Gunray Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 I doubt they were being studied that much under the heel of the former government. Just be glad they were destroyed outright in an attempt to rewrite history. We fascists do that from time to time. the "grunts" are just products of an impersonal military/industrial manufacturing training program). To quote Ken Brockman, "Fort Springfield, or as I call it, the KILLBOT FACTORY." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Rabbit Posted April 14, 2003 Author Share Posted April 14, 2003 The Neimoidian! Aaaa-aaa-aaaaaaahhh--! Relax, Beastie. Two hippy liberals are more than enough to deal with this ray-gun space frog... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynk Former Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 Originally posted by Nute Gunray Just be glad they were destroyed outright in an attempt to rewrite history. We fascists do that from time to time. Drat! Now the world will never find out that the human race is actually a species of virus sent here by aliens to clear the earth of all living creatures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold leader Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 So hippies are actually mutants? But wait...we knew that already... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylilin Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 well, at least when everything is gone, no one can loot anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Rabbit Posted April 15, 2003 Author Share Posted April 15, 2003 *(Goes and loots the Smithsonian Institution, tries the same thing in America. Reports conclusions on experiment from federal maximum security prison cell.)* Nope. That didn't work. It must matter after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zargon Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 All they did was reprove something that was proven in Somalia, there are lower forms of humans, now I admit that there has been looting here in our history, the LA Riots( I am not saying, look at al those african-americans, just PEOPLE that did it), but the people who participated in that were also the lower echeon of our system in 'worth/standing'( I use that term as loosely as possible, as in they were generaly very low educated, low/periodically employmed). It was not done by a large mass of the population, just one section of it. It SEEMS, fro the reports that the looting is so widespread that it IS a majority of th epopulation. Of course the counter argument is that this majority has been majorly oppressed for the last 30 years. But I think the torture pretty much proved the pont earlier anyways........... There are still uncivilzed nations in the world, and being a civilized nation makes dealing with them much harder because of the things they will do that we consider unthinkable or rediculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 Lower forms of humans??!! What the f**k are you talking about?! Try even thinking being at there place and tell me if you wouldn’t consider looting to make a bit of a living. Of course I’m not saying that looting is good and that all that do it need too, but still, lower forms of humans? And I know what you want to say by "uncivilized", I've lived 8 years of my life in Africa. I would use the term unorganized instead, very unorganized. But Lower forms of humans? No way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylilin Posted April 15, 2003 Share Posted April 15, 2003 Lower forms of humans? I know people who'd slit your throat without even giving it a thought for the 5 bucks in your back pocket. Try telling them they are lower forms of human life. Here is the equation you need to remember: poor people + no police + unguarded source of wealth = looting You'd be looting too if you were there, so don't hide behind your so-called moral high ground. I know I'd be looting too. *(Goes and loots the Smithsonian Institution, tries the same thing in America. Reports conclusions on experiment from federal maximum security prison cell Nope. That didn't work. It must matter after all... Lets put this in perspective here, looting a museum matters to us because we are not getting our government overthrown, the majority of us also know where we will be eating for the next week. Would you rather people died so that some artifacts weren't destroyed? I know that is a rather broad question, but for the most part, what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Rabbit Posted April 16, 2003 Author Share Posted April 16, 2003 No one's lives would've been risked in guarding the museum. All they had to do was stand there with rifles and cause the looters to turn aside in search of other booty... I don't have a problem with most of the looting going on. Hell, I'd be going through Saddam's palace myself in search of gold, cognac and firearms. I'm just saying that when the dust from all this clears, it would have been nice to say to the people of Iraq, "Here--we saved your 170,000 irreplaceable artifacts from the dawn of human history from the looting." That would go over very nicely, especially if the Iraqi citizen is driving a new Mercedes. Ain't gonna happen now, though. We blew it, for the want of a platoon of marines to stand guard a few days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 The Marines could have actually stayed inside the museum while guarding it, and perhaps picked up a little bit of culture and history in the process. After all,.. the Iraq of antiquity is most likely the birthplace of this thing we choose to call "civilization" in the first place. Little things like written language and mathematics probably got thier start there, or very close by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Beastie Posted April 16, 2003 Share Posted April 16, 2003 And this just in from the minefield of information that is Usenet, courtesy of Rob Lomax of alt.religion.kibology (via alt.humor.best-of-usenet) The 24 year regime of Saddam Hussein, with its rape and torture and genocide, has obviously had a terrible effect on the Iraqi people. However this is not an excuse for the sort of lame-arsed looting we're seeing on TV and in the newspapers. Pictures on TV last night showed an Iraqi man proudly waving a metre-tall black enamel vase with florid gold-leaf trim over his head. Saddam may have killed many things, but surely some small amount of good taste must have survived? Also on the front page of today's paper, a young man was carrying a tray of eggs away from a looted building. Eggs! Who loots eggs out of a building full of computer equipment and high-end office furniture? Another fellow had somehow looted the red and blue light assembly from the top of a police car, and let me tell you, he was about twenty years too old for such undergraduate hijinks. No doubt it will make a very nice addition to his wall of beer cans in his bedroom. In short, the Iraqi people have much to learn about the art of the loot. Until they learn how to target jewellery, stereo systems and home appliances like their Western cousins, they will never be taken seriously in the arena of civil disobedience. Rob Lomax still thinking, "Eggs!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nute Gunray Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 in one of pittsburgh's papers, there was an article about a guy that looted a romance novel because the chick on the cover was hot and he also looted AA batteries for his shortwave set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadPilot Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Looting from museums is one thing, but the hospital looting is far more concerning. Innocent people won't die as a result of an empty museum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Gnarly Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 well its tough that half of humanities bab.....something ma-other got stolen but think of it this way, hundreds of years from now they'll find stuff like porn and think its amazing art.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Rabbit Posted April 20, 2003 Author Share Posted April 20, 2003 Ever seen the temple art of southern India? Makes our porn look downright prudish... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylilin Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 There are some nice porn-murals on the walls of Pompei as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Gnarly Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 thats exactley my point no matter what we think peopel in the future will think its an amazing step in evolution... i.e. Ritual Prehistoric cave painting Killings......i dont belive they where ritual i just think it was a past time thingy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.