Let's get rid of hp regenerating force powers!(?)

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko:

 

JA is not an entirely new game. It takes JO and makes some minor changes, then adds new levels and models. Saber combat system? Graphics? Sound design? Level style? I would be greatly surprised if these were more than 20% different from JO. I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII.

That's strange. I guess you must think that Quake 2 was an expansion for Quake 1 then?

 

Stand-alone expansion? That's an oxymoron. If something stands alone, it's a game. If it requires a game in order to run, it's an expansion.

[t3rr0r]

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko

I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII.

they don't state that it is jk3... just ja.

[ILR]

The problem with force powers for me was always difficulty of use in junction with the saber. I've rebound the main force powers to keys closer to "WADS", but when it came right down to it, managing a wide arsenal of force powers while sabering was only annoying because of the shotty controls.

 

Why is force heal a command you give? Why not just have the player always regenerate 1 hp every 30 seconds? (or some varying degree of this). If light side players want to fill up the health, they'd have to pull back, wait it out, and make sure they dont get hit. End result is much like our current heal power, except its one less force power I'll have to rebind or switch to.

 

I think the other powers should be molded more into the gameplay, instead of this "select your spell, O Wizard of RPG's." Force Jump, for example, is a nice force power that's gameplay drivin. Light side's Absorb.. or Dark side's Lightning are like commands you would give in a real time RPG. Only change "mana bar" to "time bar", and you got yourself a Final Fantasy spinoff.

[BloodRiot]

ILR... you ARE right when you say force jump is really well implemented into gameplay.. no doubt there... I back u 100%... but i dont particulary find force keys all that complicated... I'd sugest something just a lil more practical in terms of key binding...

 

Well.. my ONLY key binding issue with force powers was if i wanted to change force sides... i'd need keys for all the lightside and the dark side. Well i play with the num pad for walking and i aim with mouse...i use the corner numapd keys for neutral force powers and the 6 insert to page down keys for light or dark side powers... it wouldbe way practical to bind the key to force power numbers like force power 1 through 4 or 5...

 

force power1= heal or drain, 2= absorb or grip and so on... that way... when you changed force side... for instance... page down(in my case) would be absorb if lightside or grip if dark side.

 

It only a small change that would suit me... probably other gammers that use diferent key sets dont need this at all. But going back to main issue... I dont really thing it's hard to use powers in a middle of a saber duel.

 

Cheers.

[Zek]

Drain is just ridiculous, always has been. Having one power that not only cripples your opponent's force ability but also fills up your HP is stupid. It's bad enough that Darkies have a regenerative ability at all, but it just doesn't make any sense that it's usually better than the Light one.

[Solbe M'ko]

I really like that idea about the light siders regaining HP over time automatically. I remember in X-Men 2: Clone Wars for the Genesis, Wolverine did just that. Once his HP got below 3 (out of 10, I think) you could just stand still and the HP would come back, very slowly. It was a pain to regenerate, as it took so long, so you didn't just allow yourself to get hurt, but if you made a split second mistake, you could recover from it. That would make lots of sense in a Star Wars game, where fast pace is an issue (so you can't go into a 3 hour meditation). The amount of points you put into Heal could determine the regen rate.

 

Personally, I don't play full force games much, so I have a problem with the controls too. I usually just select Drain and use the force button. Even if my opponent isn't hurt, drain still gets rid of his force power, so he can't push me away when I go in for the kill. I think drain should be reworked to just drain force power, not drain force power and heal.

 

And by the way, AL, I do improve in my game. I'm not the best player in the wide world, but I learn new things from people who are better than me. How can you learn from people who are trying to learn from you? I have a hard time beleiving that you discovered all of your strategies on your own.

[shock ~ unnamed]

Originally posted by Zek

Drain is just ridiculous, always has been. Having one power that not only cripples your opponent's force ability but also fills up your HP is stupid. It's bad enough that Darkies have a regenerative ability at all, but it just doesn't make any sense that it's usually better than the Light one.

 

Yeah but if done *right a stand alone heal is much better.

 

As a dark you would be reliant on getting close to others to heal. This translates into getting up in the face of a guy to drain off him when you are already near death.

 

A light could simple book it out of there and heal up in safety.

[Emon]

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko JA is not an entirely new game. It takes JO and makes some minor changes, then adds new levels and models. Saber combat system? Graphics? Sound design? Level style? I would be greatly surprised if these were more than 20% different from JO. I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII.

 

Maybe from a superficial level.

[Rockstar]

WHY?! would you change heal!?

 

its the ONE decent power the light side has that isn't a damn counter! DON'T change it

 

and you IDIOTS that think that the light sider should have to crouch and be defensless while using it should think how useless that would be in a full server.

 

drain should prob be nerked, but its quite obvious that the people who want it gone are dark siders lmao

 

one could complain that grip needs to be nerked in light sabre only servers (coz its perfectly fair outside of that)

but it shouldn't be changed

[Rockstar]

i think drain should be removed completely and instead force lightning should be enhanced, because drain kinda defies the whole 'all out offensive' darkside we've all grown to love and also its a pain in the arse in mp.

 

in sp a gradual healing power would be cool even if it was max lvled, but i dissagree with a passive healing power because mp mode is too fast paced for it. just leave it as an instant move

 

more people go the darkside anyway (coz its *"cooler"* to be evil....) so it can't piss off tooo many people lol

 

if heal is nerked in anyway it'll make the light side completely useless

[shock ~ unnamed]

Right now heal is totally worthless. You have to spend 1/2 of your entire force pool to gain back 25 health. I land one single kick and you just spent 1/2 your pool for 5 hp...

 

Personally I don't like hp regenerating powers for either side because it makes people play sloppy and that means lesser quality competition, but that's just my opinion.

 

But since obviously both will remain step one is to make heal stronger if drain remains unchanged.

 

 

Now if drain were removed heal would have to require a slow down period or something along the lines of what people are suggesting because having one guy who could just run around and constantly heal while the other could not would be absurd if there was no risk/downside involved in the heal process.

 

 

If drain were to no longer function as an hp regenerating power it still would need to have an incentive to use it. Have the dark suck the force and convert it to energy that ups their speed/attack power briefly or something along those lines.

[StormHammer]

I'd have to disagree with the idea of heal becoming a 'passive' regenerating power. The idea of regaining 1 hp per 30 seconds is a bit ridiculous considering the fast flow of an MP game, which might only last 10 minutes. If you had to stand in a corner away from the fighting to heal, then there's no point in even being in the game at all - it would be utterly useless. When I join an MP game, I want to be able to join in the battles, not retire for most of the game just to regain health.

 

Also, if Heal did become a passive regenerative power, with a higher ratio (say 10 hp every 30 seconds), then everyone would complain again because you're basically constantly healing. And does that mean that a Light sider would then have a constant drain on their force pool? That hardly seems fair. At least with the current system when a Dark Sider uses Drain, they can steal enough of my force pool to prevent me from healing. If as suggested, Drain was limited to just draining the force pool, and was not used to heal the Dark Sider, then it balances out fairly, because if the Light sider and Dark sider have both sustained damage, they are put on more of an even footing healthwise - but the Dark sider now has the advantage due to an increased Force pool of their own, which they can use for whatever they want, be it push, grip or lightning.

 

I accept that some of the power-up placement in some of the maps in JO could have been better thought out, because if you find the right spot, you can just keep running over power-ups in a lightsaber battle (shields + bacta) and keep fighting endlessly. If the shields were spaced farther apart, and the bacta was kept away from shield power-up points, that would do a lot to negate some of the drawn-out battles. So I hope they address item placement in JA.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko:

 

How can you learn from people who are trying to learn from you?

 

I'm not exactly sure what this is supposed to mean, but it's always beneficial to play people both better and worse than yourself. He who can't learn any lessons from inferior or superior opposition is doomed to mediocrity.

 

However, I try to live by the precept that my ideal gaming world is one in which I have no rival. I'd like a world in which nobody was even CLOSE to my skill level, and even though it's obviously never going to happen, that's no reason not to train towards it.

 

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko:

 

I have a hard time beleiving that you discovered all of your strategies on your own.

 

Actually the ability to discover strategies before anyone else is key to staying far enough in front of the crowd in order that you might challenge for the top spot in ladders or tournaments. Every time you play with someone, you give them an opportunity to learn your tactics. Thus, you must always be making up new tactics. It's good exercise for the imagination too.

 

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko:

 

I really like that idea about the light siders regaining HP over time automatically.

 

I think the "passive heal" is a pretty awful idea, personally. Hopefully JA will be a fast-paced game, and it should have fast-paced powers associated with it. Heal that heals in six seconds flat, associated with a meditative stance.

 

Originally posted by Rockstar:

 

WHY?! would you change heal!?

 

its the ONE decent power the light side has that isn't a damn counter! DON'T change it

 

and you IDIOTS that think that the light sider should have to crouch and be defensless while using it should think how useless that would be in a full server.

Sheesh, calm down sonny. It's not good form to go around calling people idiots, unless they've done it to you first.

 

As for heal, it's been nerfed since 1.03. It's useless. It's worthless. In JA, hopefully it'll be boosted, but with a meditative stance attached so that one cannot use it in the middle of combat. As for your assertion that it'd be useless in a busy game, I find myself alone for at least 10 seconds at a time, even during busy games. Well, alone except for the bodies, that is.

 

Plus, you could use heal in conjunction with mind-trick. That'd be rather spiffy, meditating away in the middle of a battle, completely invisible...

 

As for Drain, I don't think it should be nerfed. Perhaps its range and the size of its fan should be decreased, but nerfing powers leads only to woe.

[toms]

i think that all that really needs to be done is that it should only work while in a crouched, stationary position.

 

Oh, and take it out of the single player... any SP game that has a healing ability automatically becomes both amazingly easy, and an exercise in fight, wait, fight, wait while you heal after every battle. its not as if it is needed when you have bacta and healing droids anyway.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Rockstar

i think drain should be removed completely and instead force lightning should be enhanced, because drain kinda defies the whole 'all out offensive' darkside we've all grown to love and also its a pain in the arse in mp.

What? The power takes away another player's force power, leaving them defenseless. That sounds pretty offensive to me.

 

Originally posted by Rockstar

if heal is nerked in anyway it'll make the light side completely useless

LOL. Well, the lightsider could just turn on absorb to prevent drain from taking their force power and then using it to lightning them. Oh yeah, the light side is really useless.

[Luc Solar]

About the meditating period: something like 5 seconds of "sitting duckness" would be ok.

 

If you're fighting against someone and are getting low on HP, just jump across a bridge and roll behind a pillar and heal. A fast opponent could probably get a hit/throw in just as your getting up, but a slower one or someone who wasn't expecting your sudden move couldn't.

 

I'd very much prefer that ^^ to the insta-heal people can use while in mid swing.

[Rad Blackrose]

Personally, I thought heal should have been similar to SP in terms of the meditate, and if at least to meet with the whiners, allow them to move around but not attack.

 

I also liked the hp regen portion as the force pool decreases. Something like that would allow you to still kill someone while force heal is still active, but the healee would have HP coming back or at least some left over if you didn't get the killer blow.

 

The only problem I have with drain to this date is the AOE drain. If it was restricted to level 2 range (both horizontally and distance wise), with a slightly tweaked HP:FP conversion ratio, then I might deem it balanced.

 

And as for the person that said we are taking out the one power that is not a counter for the light side: shut up.

[yolkboy]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

Personally, I thought heal should have been similar to SP in terms of the meditate, and if at least to meet with the whiners, allow them to move around but not attack.

 

I also liked the hp regen portion as the force pool decreases. Something like that would allow you to still kill someone while force heal is still active, but the healee would have HP coming back or at least some left over if you didn't get the killer blow.

 

Well, I like to heal on the run as I go find another person to fight. I rather not meditate. But of course that poses the problem as with the current system so I see where you are coming from. It's a tough one. Not being able to attack might be a compromise.The hp regen portion might work as well. Anyways, If I did have to meditate to heal, I would like the ability to stop healing if someone gets too close.

[Solbe M'ko]

quote:

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Originally posted by Solbe M'ko JA is not an entirely new game. It takes JO and makes some minor changes, then adds new levels and models. Saber combat system? Graphics? Sound design? Level style? I would be greatly surprised if these were more than 20% different from JO. I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Emon says: [Maybe from a superficial level.]

 

Well, to my mind, the only real changes are at the superficial level, the actual feel and style of the game won't change, jsut the guns and force powers, etc. That's just my opinion, though.

 

And the caonstant heal thing could work, if gameplay were slowed down (which, for the record, I'm not saying would be a good thing). I find that in FFA maps where everybody starts with 100/100 and can get a maximum of 100/200, if you start to lose a fight (sabers only, BTW) you can just run off and heal for a while. Anyway, I don't like how a healer can just run around the map and only die from a single, well placed blow, but that's just me.

 

I agree that SP was too damn easy after you got heal. The beggining of the game is really tough, campared to Bespin (where you first encounter heal). Once you get heal level 2 or 3 and Mind Trick level 3, the game becomes a complete cakewalk, except the parts where you fight Jedi (who, because of AI problems, fight very unnaturally and are mostly all pushovers). The only tough parts after you get heal are when you have to try to protect Lando, or an R5, or Jan.

 

I think that healing should be slightly different for different game types, at least. Healing should be harder to do in duels and should slow you down some in FFA. In the end, though we have to put all of our faith into Raven to find a solution (and, failing that, tell the modders what we think).

[Kengo]

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko

I agree that SP was too damn easy after you got heal. The beggining of the game is really tough, campared to Bespin (where you first encounter heal). Once you get heal level 2 or 3 and Mind Trick level 3, the game becomes a complete cakewalk, except the parts where you fight Jedi (who, because of AI problems, fight very unnaturally and are mostly all pushovers). The only tough parts after you get heal are when you have to try to protect Lando, or an R5, or Jan.

 

Yeh, I think the game got a lot easier twice...firstly when you got the saber, then when you got heal. I'm not complaining bout getting the saber, definately not, but it sure made you a lot less vulnerable, and suddenly stormtroopers became much less of a hazard. Heal definately takes away from the 'edge' of the game a bit in SP, you know you can get that HP up inbetween fights up to full if you wish. At least at level 1 it was slow and you had to pause I guess, at higher levels it did kill your FPS a bit, but it definately made things easier, and bacta cannisters became a lot less important. I'd prefer some kind of built in heal limit, like you can only heal a certain number of times in a level, or say once every 10 minutes - but then I guess people want to se their force how they choose.

[ILR]

Originally posted by StormHammer

I'd have to disagree with the idea of heal becoming a 'passive' regenerating power. The idea of regaining 1 hp per 30 seconds is a bit ridiculous considering the fast flow of an MP game, which might only last 10 minutes. If you had to stand in a corner away from the fighting to heal, then there's no point in even being in the game at all - it would be utterly useless. When I join an MP game, I want to be able to join in the battles, not retire for most of the game just to regain health.

 

Also, if Heal did become a passive regenerative power, with a higher ratio (say 10 hp every 30 seconds), then everyone would complain again because you're basically constantly healing. And does that mean that a Light sider would then have a constant drain on their force pool? That hardly seems fair. At least with the current system when a Dark Sider uses Drain, they can steal enough of my force pool to prevent me from healing. If as suggested, Drain was limited to just draining the force pool, and was not used to heal the Dark Sider, then it balances out fairly, because if the Light sider and Dark sider have both sustained damage, they are put on more of an even footing healthwise - but the Dark sider now has the advantage due to an increased Force pool of their own, which they can use for whatever they want, be it push, grip or lightning.

 

I accept that some of the power-up placement in some of the maps in JO could have been better thought out, because if you find the right spot, you can just keep running over power-ups in a lightsaber battle (shields + bacta) and keep fighting endlessly. If the shields were spaced farther apart, and the bacta was kept away from shield power-up points, that would do a lot to negate some of the drawn-out battles. So I hope they address item placement in JA.

 

Ok, my 1hp per 30 seconds example was an example. MP is too fast paced for that. An yes.. 10 hp per 30 seconds is a bit fast. But we have established that MP is quite fast paced indead... so perhaps 5hp/30s will be just right? How about 4hp/30s? No?.. 4.5 then?

 

What I'm trying to say is that on the low side (1hp/30s) you agree its too slow. But you also agree that it can get to fast. Well... the world is full of middle grounds. If there's a low side and a high side, then there's gotta be a "just right" somewhere in the middle.

 

As for Drain being constant? An interesting consept! Lets say when 10 meters from a dark jedi who has force drain ability you regain your force power... except only a bit slower. And as your proximity to the dark Jedi narrows, your rate of regen gets slower and slower (never, of course, go down). Since its a passive ability, it's at no cost to the dark Jedi to do. And the effect is any opposing jedi has a harder and harder time regaining mana the closer he gets to his opponent. This would give jedi with drain an incentive to do close combat, and be the maniac offensive dark jedi we know him to be. Now THATS a gameplay drivin force power if I ever heard one.

[Solbe M'ko]

THAT is a really cool idea.

[t3rr0r]

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko

THAT is a really cool idea.

i second that.

[Solbe M'ko]

Passive force powers would be a cool addition to the game, and would add another aspect to the whole force-powers situation. Right now there are 1-time use powers and on/off powers. To have a few powers that are on all the time would be neat.

 

The dark jedi would have a slight advantage in, say, a saber lock. He could get back force points faster than the light sider, and so could use push more often ( I don't really like the whole push thing, but, meh!). That is a very neat idea and I sure hope that something to that end gets into the game (unlikely).

[Spider AL]

Frankly all these "passive" force powers would only turn the game into a massive ballroom dance. People circling each other for hours until their respective powers have taken what effect they wish. It'd turn lightsiders into runners, even more so than in 1.02. They ran away to heal instantly before, then came back into the fray... but with this passive healing, they'd spend all their time running away. Awful.