Sabers vs Blasters?

[DarthAlder]

G'day,

I'm relatively new to outcast, so I may be talking rubbish but, it seems to me that in multiplayer there is a distinct advantage using blasters over sabers. Being a Jedi to me, nearly affords superhero status in the Star Wars universe and so if a saber is your choice of weapon, it (along with force powers) should at least be equal to blasters.

Will this be a problem in Jedi Academy? May be disabling force powers if you choose a blaster might help.

I'm not trying to critisize, so don't get nasty, may be I just need to learn to play properly.

What do you think?

 

Regards,

Trav.

[Rockstar]

G'day fellow Aussie

 

not being critical or anything, but you'll soon see that sabers own the game. imo its actually probably harder and takes more skill not using the saber.

 

However, there are exceptions, such as peeps that use the sniper rifle and camp with force seeing to try and pick people off, but they usually get whats coming too em.

 

but the guns do not need nerking at all. the balance imho is a good one, because without it people who didn't wanna use the saber couldn't do anything.

 

As you get more xp you'll see that the saber (when used with force powers) is the most popular weapon for a reason

 

hoped that helped

 

cya man

[Luc Solar]

Sabers are totally useless in FFA's. You get 10 times more kills with guns than when sticking to a saber. The only real use for a saber in an all weapon FFA is blocking blaster shots. It's just a cool glowing stick.

 

The problem isn't the guns though, it's the ridiculously low saber damage. If that is fixed (like in Promod), there will be pretty good balance. Nevertheless - no matter what they'll end up doing in JA, guns will ALWAYS be better (ranged weapons > melee weapons)...but if sabers are deadly, they're useful too.

[legameboy]

I definitly agree with the above post. Take the golon arms for example, and you can kill someone with a saber in a jiffy. (Mmm, peanut butter )

[MattJedi]

Hopfully things will be more balanced in JA. Saber and force users really get the ****ty end of the stick in JO. The new mod fixes all this its called Forcemod2 it totally rulez! Check it out!

[Solo4114]

Spider Al originally brought this point up, but I think it warrants repetition, especially since it was one of the things that FINALLY convinced me that sabres are balanced in relation to the other weapons IN FFA.

 

The thing to remember is that in all of the game modes, everyone is operating on a level playing field at least as far as choices of powers and guns goes. Sure, you limit yourself to a particular side of the force, but you still have the choice of how to allocate your points to start off with, and everyone gets the same # of points.

 

So, what's this mean? Well, basically, it means that EVERYONE in the game is a Jedi. The reason why Jedi are able to beat the crap out of people with a lightsabre has nothing to do with the weapon itself. It's because the guy using it is a frickin' Jedi!! He can jump higher, run faster, shoot lightning, choke you with his mind, heal himself, etc., etc., etc. AND he can block blaster bolts with the sabre. Just think of the sabre as a more easily transported and more deadly version of a sword.

 

Now, imagine that you or I, with little or no training (or even YEARS of training) pick up, say, a katana. If you go up against a guy with even a .22 pistol, who do you think is going to walk away from that fight? Even assuming the katana itself had the ability to block a bullet, there's no way that you or I could do that. The gun always has the advantage of both range and speed.

 

Now, level the playing field in the other direction. Let's say you've got superhuman reflexes, can run really fast, jump really high, etc., etc. BUT, so can the OTHER guy. Where's the advantage now? With the gun. The other guy can maintain his distance and use his ranged advantage. There's just no way for you to win UNLESS you can close the distance, and that's impossible.

 

Let's say you try to turn on force speed, which you have at level three. The other guy has the same amount of points and just runs backwards with level three force speed. The distance remains, and he continues to pelt you with secondary fire from the repeater or flechette gun. Even if you are fast enough to push the shots away with force push, you've now got lower force than he does, so he can keep his distance for longer than you, or use some other force power.

 

The sabre, at least in FFA and CTF, is just another tool in your arsenal. It's great at close combat (though it could be better), and it's useless in any other situation except as a shield.

 

Now, if they ever implement a true Jedi vs. Mercs mode, or if the Siege mode has a Jedi class and everyone else is just a soldier, then there will need to be some balance changes, and then you will see how the sabre rocks in the hands of a Jedi. If they were to do this, I absolutely agree that the sabre should be basically a 1-2 hit kill weapon. Unaffected by shields, able to block blaster shots, and absolutely lethal if you can get close enough to kill with it.

 

Personally, I'd like to see the sabre be a 1-2 hit kill weapon for all uses (duel, FFA, CTF, Siege, etc.), but it's still useful in FFA for what it is: a reasonably powerful melee weapon and a decent shield. For that job it's great. As a primary weapon, it's lousy, but that's no surprise given that the playing field is pretty much even (and in that situation, a gun will always dominate).

[Emon]

Guns and sabers are balanced. If you think they aren't, you aren't doing something right. E.g. randomly swinging and running forward into a fury of E-11 bolts.

[Rockstar]

i agree using sabers should be a choice... not forced because its the only thing one can do

 

but yeah they should take off more hp, but not be one hit kills

[HertogJan]

Originally posted by Emon

Guns and sabers are balanced. If you think they aren't, you aren't doing something right. E.g. randomly swinging and running forward into a fury of E-11 bolts.

 

So you don't agree that the saber is pretty useless as an offensive weapon in, say CTF?? Have you ever played NF Sabers CTF??? It's the most stupid thing to do, but sadly, a lot of servers are Saber only now, and it doesn't make sense for FFA and especially CTF.

 

You can't catch the flagcarrier with Sabers only. period. Only if he srews up BADLY!! Even IF you reach him, you can't kill him, because it takes like 20 hits to kill him (you can hardly use red stance here, cause he's going from side to side, running away from you, not facing you...)

 

Look, the saber just isn't a distance weapon, but make it lethal for christ's sake!! Otherwise it just takes too long and you're gunned down before you know it...

[Solo4114]

It depends on what you mean by "balance", really.

 

If you mean "able to defeat a gun user every time" well, no, they aren't balanced, nor should they be. The sabre is just a tool. It's the wielder's special abilities that make it truly lethal. If everyone has those same special abilities, the gun's gonna win out everytime.

 

If you mean "useful for a particular limited purpose" I'd say the sabre is reasonably balanced. It makes a fantastic shield that requires no recharging. And it's a decent last-ditch weapon, which, in FPS games, is usually what the melee weapons assigned to "1" are. Now, personally, I'd like to see it be more lethal than it is. 1-2 hits kills, regardless of swing or stance. That would help with games like sabre only CTF (which seems pretty goofy anyway) or sabre only FFA.

 

That said, a uniform damage scale for the sabre isn't really necessary across all game styles. Duels could have the sabre take, say, 3-5 hits to kill, CTF could take a single hit, and FFA 1-3. Maybe a damage mutator, like in UT, would make more sense. Just another filter you can throw in to make gameplay more interesting or customize it to your tastes.

[KBell]

Sabers should have a VERY distinct advantage over blasters. Jedi shouldn't die from a stooped blaster, they should die from another jedi's blows.

[Prime]

Originally posted by KBell

Jedi shouldn't die from a stooped blaster, they should die from another jedi's blows.

Why not? Remember that this is a game, not a movie. In the movies, for the most part the blaster-wielding opponants had low level abilities, and so the uber-powerful Jedi could deflect all attacks. But even in AOTC when a Jedi faced an opponant with similar skill (Jango), a blaster did kill a Jedi. And since in the game everyone is a Jedi, blasters should be just as deadly in their hands as any other weapon.

[Emon]

If Jedi are unstoppable and cannot be killed by guns, the game will suffer horrible imbalances.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by Emon

If Jedi are unstoppable and cannot be killed by guns, the game will suffer horrible imbalances.

 

Originally posted by Prime

But even in AOTC when a Jedi faced an opponant with similar skill (Jango), a blaster did kill a Jedi.

 

Absolutely agree. It has been said again and again until it has almost penetrated my skull ... Just as a Jedi with a saber uses the force to predict and deflect blaster bolts, so would a jedi with a gun use the force to predict and send blaster bolts to open spots. That is an innate balance - in a stand-off, the saber wielder should take occasional hits through their defense, but also deflect some back to the gun-wielder, who would also take damage. One should die within one hit of the other.

 

Of course, they could extend new classes to include 'pawn stormtroopers' and 'mindless Gamorreans' and 'wimpy Rodians', and then give them 10 hits for taking down a Jedi, who could push, pull, grip, and slice them up just like in the SP game. [i'm no longer sure if I'm joking or if I think it would be a cool challenge to take down a Jedi like that ... )

 

Mike

[StormHammer]

It all comes back down to the same argument, over and over.

 

As I see it, the only solution to prevent a lot of these complaints about sabers vs guns, is to have different damage scales for the weapons in each MP mode individually. Until that is implemented, 'balance' in one game mode will always 'unbalance' another game mode.

 

In fact, it goes further...it's not just about the game modes...but which 'options' are selected for each game mode. As said above, NF Saber CTF is different to having all weapons and all Force powers in CTF. So actually each 'option' for play in a particular game mode should be balanced for that particular option. It might take a little getting used to if you jump between different game modes and different options per mode...but I feel the benefits would far outweigh the drawbacks, and hopefully make each game type more enjoyable.

[Rockstar]

i think it would be cools to have a "Neutral Force Powers Only" option.

 

Coz people say "if you don't like the force, don't use it". but i sometimes wanted a break from lighting and healing, but found NF just really annoying at the fact you couldn't force jump, push or pull.

 

the basic powers are awesome and can't really be used unfairly. and if u don't wanna use it don't turn it on

[Prime]

Originally posted by txa1265

Of course, they could extend new classes to include 'pawn stormtroopers' and 'mindless Gamorreans' and 'wimpy Rodians'...

We already have those. They are called "bots"

[Solo4114]

Originally posted by StormHammer

It all comes back down to the same argument, over and over.

 

As I see it, the only solution to prevent a lot of these complaints about sabers vs guns, is to have different damage scales for the weapons in each MP mode individually. Until that is implemented, 'balance' in one game mode will always 'unbalance' another game mode.

 

In fact, it goes further...it's not just about the game modes...but which 'options' are selected for each game mode. As said above, NF Saber CTF is different to having all weapons and all Force powers in CTF. So actually each 'option' for play in a particular game mode should be balanced for that particular option. It might take a little getting used to if you jump between different game modes and different options per mode...but I feel the benefits would far outweigh the drawbacks, and hopefully make each game type more enjoyable.

 

Yep. I absolutely agree. It doesn't have to be major sweeping changes, depending on the modes, but subtle changes would be nice. IE: in full-force CTF, you might want guns to do higher damange, since people would have many more powers at their disposal to evade with. Not ridiculously higher damage, but, say, one less hit per gun. Something like that. In CTF as opposed to FFA, you might want sabres to do maybe 33% more damage than in FFA, so that a three hit combo in FFA would deal the same damage as a 2 hit one in CTF. Why? Again, because you want fights over with faster in CTF than in FFA. In no guns CTF, you could have the sabre be a 1-hit kill weapon, whereas in Duel mode, you could leave it as a 3-hit kill weapon.

 

I'll say this: if Raven doesn't implement the game this way (and they likely won't) SOMEONE ought to put out a mod that does this. If I knew how and had the time, I'd do it, but sadly I don't have a clue how to do this sort of thing.

[Doctor Shaft]

This game is not the movie, and I'll agree that if we all had super powerful sabers and guns that were pitiful, then the game would hardly be any fun.

 

I think the main killer of the game for me is just the limited effectiveness of the saber.

 

Yes, Spider Al had his point about the 'tool' system of JO, and that in the long run the saber was 'balanced' if you looked at the whole picture, taking into account all of the equipment. But the one serious flaw with the usual "it's a tool based, everyone on an equal level of skill, jedi game" is that the guns ARE simply more effective than the sabers... in virtually every aspect. Let's face it, if you're good enough, you won't EVER need the lightsaber... period. If you get your golan arms or your repeater, and you've got the aim, then you're going to own servers all day long. I guess it's balanced because everyone else can do the same thing, but in the end, we're just accepting that guns are superior to swords. While this game isn't the actual Star Wars movie, it kills a lot of the fun for me when I see a bunch of jedi being more successful using the equipment of a storm trooper than the ancient weapon that Yoda and Obi Wan wield. But whatever, in a 1.04 game, if your aim is true, your saber will probably never come out, unless you run out of ammo. In short, JO circa 1.03 and 1.04 has been a glorified combat knife. Guess what. The combat knife has it's uses in Counterstrike too. But we all know that you're not going very far with it at all.

 

Unfortunately for me, many serious gamers don't see a problem with this. They like games where we shoot tank cannons. Any server I've played on that shows a jedi killing someone quickly with a lightsaber, for some odd reason, becomes offensive to gunner players. It almost seems hypocritical. Yeah, guns should be awesome explosive devices, and if I get good enough, I should be able to kill people in like 10 seconds or less. But if you have a sword and do it just as quickly or easily, I get pissed off.

 

 

The idea of a 1-2 hit kill saber (primarily 1 hit kill) is probably the best way to implement sabers. Why? Well, first off, it allows you to play the total game (i.e.- none of that restriction crap, like no guns, no force powers... etc.) without having to use other weapons to succeed all the time. Mods like JK2++, and Promod allowed you to be quite successful with the saber. It certainly wasn't "teh B3st" thing to use all the time, but it was quite vicious, especially in Promod.

 

For JA, I think the best way to keep a larger community together (you'll never 'unify' the whole thing) is to leave most weapons on 'lethal' mode according to how difficult it is to down the enemy. If the guns are gonna be lethal, then you might as well give me a saber that does the same thing. This way, we've got fast-paced action both for the saberist AND the gunner. The gunner will probably still be best, but at least I don't have to resign myself to Saber only servers if I want to be even mildly successful in FFA. I don't know, I'm just rambling. The key to allowing a lightsaber to be effective is in the force powers. JO gave us an assortment of powers, but they had little to do with our mediocre swordsmanship options. Oh well, I'll just sit, wait, watch everyone else buy JA, wait a few months, and then decide of it it's a waste or not. Cheers.

[fallen[fk]]

Jedi Outcast is horribly flawed. And now the crybabies that got it patched time and time again are the same one's speaking up now about how weak the saber is. If raven had left the damage scales alone from 1.02 and just patched the BUGS and adjusted force and what not the game would be great and the saber would have a use in game modes like a guns CTF. As it stands now, if you play guns/full force CTF, it's pointless to have anything more than level 1 saber attack with level 3 saber defense and no saber throw. As it stands now, using the weapon that the game was made for, in game modes that include guns is utter suicide.

 

And for that comment about Saber Only CTF. I agree that a NO FORCE Saber CTF is pretty stupid. I've never seen a nf saber ctf server. We have 2 saber only/full force ctf servers. And there is a rather large community playing that game mode, and if you took the time to play on such servers for more than 5 minutes and actually gave it a chance you'd see that it can be quite fun. And no it's not impossible to kill a flag carrier, especially when our community has all pickups (IE health, bacta, and shields) disabled. Now the euro's, that's a different story, they keep all the pickups on their servers for this game mode and games become quite boring. But without the pickups a lot more team strategy goes into it.

 

That being said, Jedi Academy is finally going to have damage location for the saber through enhanced ghoul2, so hopefully they'll return the saber to it's rightful power. I'm tired of using a red side slice at a guys head and it doesn't kill them.

[<JOTD>Jedi Hunter]

Not that I'm really stating anything that hasn't been said, but the saber is more effective then a blaster. Just a little harder to get the hang of. Blasters are quick and easy to use, where sabers rely on actual skills. Learn these and you'll do great.

[Prime]

Originally posted by <JOTD>Jedi Hunter

Not that I'm really stating anything that hasn't been said, but the saber is more effective then a blaster. Just a little harder to get the hang of. Blasters are quick and easy to use, where sabers rely on actual skills. Learn these and you'll do great.

But there is still the inherent disadvantage of the lightsaber vs. ranged weapons. Increasing the damage scale of the lightsaber helps a bit, but in the end the problem can never really be solved because good gunners will always be able to keep their distance from saberists.

 

This is just the way it is going to be. In the movies, the great equilizer is the Jedi's abilities. In JO, everyone has those abiliites.

[Luc Solar]

I just have to comment on this skill-issue.

 

Why on earth is it that everything else is lame or gay and requires zero skill except no force saber only dueling (assuming you don't whore, lame or spam certain swings) ?

 

To me that sounds like one hell of a ridiculous thing to say. Saber = skill whereas guns or force = no skill? Riiiiight..

[Emon]

I would like to draw attention to the original Jedi Knight, which suffered far worse multiplayer imbalances and issues that Jedi Outcast, was never patched, and never had annoying fanboys that threw a fit when a patch ruined their perfect fantasy gaming experience.

[The Count]

Originally posted by Emon

I would like to draw attention to the original Jedi Knight, which suffered far worse multiplayer imbalances and issues that Jedi Outcast, was never patched, and never had annoying fanboys that threw a fit when a patch ruined their perfect fantasy gaming experience.

 

Although I don't think it was patched due to gameplay issues, Jedi Knight was updated:

 

http://support.lucasarts.com/patches/jedi.htm

 

However the rest is true I don't remember anyone saying on the Zone about Jedi Knight how much they hated guns, those people just went to play in the rooms which stated NG and got on with people there.