Why I left Duelers, why Lee Oattes is trying to hide what I say, & Cool Mods for JK2

[Marker0077]

Cool Mods for JK2

This project will feature...

 

Hilts Packs:

The best hilts for JK2. These have gone through Cool Mods standards, meaning sword hilts blades do not exceed the actual blade length, all blades are in the exact same position, etc; etc.

 

The hilts that do not pass standards such as the Binford Chainsaw hilt & the Schwartz hilt, go in the Non-Standard Hilts pack. Explanations of why each hilt does not pass standards is given in the credits section of the Cool Mods manual.

 

A promotional screenshot for the Cool Mods hilts can be viewed here. (283kb)

 

Skins Pack A:

Over 200 skins in 1 pack. These not only have more sounds, more skins, full bot support, & tons & tons of fixes, but it also takes up 2/3s less disk space as well!

 

A promotional screenshot for Cool Mods: Skins Pack A can be viewed here. (428kb)

 

A promotional screenshot for Cool Mods: Alternate Red Dash can be viewed here. (133kb)

 

Installers:

No zip files here people. If you already have a hilt or skin that is included in any of these packs, the installer shall prompt you to move them to a sub-folder in you "base" folder so there are no duplicate models & skins.

 

From Duelers to Cool Mods for JK2

This thread is mainly for informing the public of the happenings with Duelers mod (i.e. why I have left Duelers) & to give Lee Oattes a chance to tell his side of the story, however, it is also a place where you can leave commentary on the upcoming release of Cool Mods for JK2.

 

Lee had removed what I & quite a few of the others had posted before. I did not have all the posts backed up but I did have the first one so I am now posting it again now...

As some of you know, there has been tension between Lee Oattes & I for some time now so I wanted for him & I to just do completely separate projects, being 2 separate mods. Chosen One (JA coder) & I was planning on doing a Duelers based mod but Lee refuses to allow us to use the source code (like he had originally agreed to). We have attempted to work with him on this but it would appear he has no interest in sharing.

 

Honestly, this all reminds me of the incident with Spectrum/BOFH/Phoenix/JediPlus coder about 6 months ago (http://www.gamingforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14721, specifically the last 5 or 6 posts).

 

Marker0077 LATE EDIT

Even more so now that he is deleting threads just like Spectrum had done.

Marker0077 LATE EDIT END

 

In any event, since he doesn't want to share his work, I'm sure everyone can understand why I no longer want to share my work with Duelers since I am off of the project. That being the loading screen in the mod, the web site, the Duelers button (basically all the graphics design work) & the hilts pack.

 

I sincerely apologize to everyone for not releasing Duelers Full, I know a lot of you were really looking forward to it but you know how the saying goes, if something sounds to good to be true, chances are it is.

 

I still plan on releasing the majority of my work in Cool Mods for JK2 but it's not going to feature the cool installer I made for Duelers obviously. It will still feature an installer if I have enough time.

 

Lee says he may release the source code publicly some day but that means nothing to Chosen One & I. If we're not doing the project now we won't do it later, besides, Lee already told me I could use the source code in the past & now I feel that he is going back on his word. Anything a person tells you means nothing if they go back on their word & that's exactly what I feel Lee has done.

 

Personally, there were some features like punch sounds with emotes & a speed scaling CVar that I had recommended Lee add to Duelers & he had no interest in doing it what so ever & at times, even acted offended when I mentioned it. When I said that we might add these types of features in our mod, that's when he said we couldn't use the code.

 

It doesn't matter anyways, Duelers is dying for a variety of reasons & Duelers Full had a good chance to save it. I almost want to release it just to prove my point but to be honest, I just want to get out of the Duelers picture so I don't have to deal with headaches anymore. This was *supposed* to be for fun.

Lee Oattes was given the opportunity to contribute to the thread to tell his side of the story but instead he had removed it altogether (I can't imagine why).

 

More than that he is now stealing my work. I had told him I was planning on removing the web site before hand so he had enough time to make a new page (which was about 3 days). Instead, he saved my site & then put it back up when I no longer had access to the FTP. From what I gather (the only thing I understand of what his side of the story is), his position is this was work I had done for Duelers so it should stay with Duelers just like if this was a real business but if this was a real business, a person would receive payment (i.e. being permitted to use the source code, which BTW I did try to work out with him as a deal beforehand) or the persons work would go with them. I had not only not received any payment, he went back on his word by not allowing me to use the source code. A company would not use a persons work & not pay them for it, this should be no different if you going to say the work I have done is "Duelers property".

 

All in all, me leaving Duelers would have never even been an issue in the first place if Lee was being more of a team player. There were a variety of threads that were taken up on various ideas that I & some of the other users had & we voted on them (which Lee has also now removed from the Duelers forums). Lee would not code the majority of them, which I could have lived with but the Orange stance damage is not where it is supposed to be in Duelers 1.3. Normally it does around 55 damage in not only previous versions of Duelers but all other JediMod based mods as well. He refused to fix it. It was at this point that I realized that he was no longer going to be reasonable nor a team player (like he used to be), so that's when I decided to give him these 2 ultimatums...

 

The Proposed Deals:

#1) Fix the Orange damage & I would stay on Duelers. That's it, that's all he had to do. He didn't have to code any of the ideas that we had, just fix what was messed up. He refused.

 

This offer is no longer on the table just because while we might have had our differences in opinions, there should have still been a trust. He broke that trust the first time by not honoring his word with allowing me to use the source code. He broke that trust a second time by stealing my work (basically the hilts & all the graphic design work). There won't be a third time.

 

#2) Allow Chosen One & I to code a Duelers based mod. The offer I had given him was not only could he keep the existing page & all the work I had done for him, I would update & support his mod still, including in the forums or anything else for that matter. I would even sport a URL to his page not only on our web site but in our installers as well. This offer is still on the table, however, I know he will never take me up on it.

 

The Aftermath

I am now once again giving Lee this opportunity to tell his side of the story, although I highly doubt he will have anything to say but you never know.

 

I would also like the beta testers & users of the mod to come forth & give their opinions on the matter.

 

As for me, I still plan on doing Cool Mods for JK2 which will feature the web site I had created. If Lee chooses to use stolen work that is his choice, however, while I was originally happy to finally let this thing rest, Lee's choices on removing my posts & stealing my work is making feel like I not only need to bring this back up but do it on a much larger scale which means I am going to be doing quite a bit of media attention on this matter.

 

I appreciate everyone's time very much. If you are not sure what to post then let me ask you, do you think I am wrong for doing this? How would you react if you had put over 4 or 5 months time into a project & then have your partner steal from you & not keep agreements they they had made with you?

 

This Thread on Other Forums

GamingForums (JK2Files.com)

 

LucasForums (JediKnightII.net)

 

DarkSide with DarkStats Forums

 

Clan ICoP Forums

 

Clan +POO+ Forums

 

This will also be up in the Sith Vikings Forums once they are back up. Those forums are at http://www.sithvikings.org/forum.

[Marker0077]

I am leaving this post everywhere so everyone knows what the deal is, why I haven't been posting, etc; etc.

 

First off, I have been dealing with real life issues. I have been helping some people move, helping others with their computers, basically helping everyone but myself. I am now back to work & the site is up & running. I am hoping to have Cool Mods for JK2 out this week, then start on CM for JK3.

 

Secondly, I spoke to soon about copyright laws, there are copyright laws for this sort of thing & my work is protected under copyright law at the moment. Legally, Lee can not claim my website as "Duelers property" without my written consent. As for the other mods, I still need to do some homework on all that, it will be more technical considering others work is involved as well. Either way though, I should be able to copyright my version of everyones work without too much difficulty.

 

Thirdly, I am not going to be contributing to this thread anymore because I plan on starting new ones with more information once I have had the time to collect my thoughts & figure out the best way of saying it (hopefully without having a book for everyone to read). I also need to get to do more studying on the laws & whatnot & quite possibly speak with some copyright lawyers.

 

After this is all said & done I am planning on sharing what I have learned. I want everyone copyrighting their work or at least knowing the law, this way you guys don't get anyone stealing your work as well.

[Inskipp]

(Cross posted in gamingforums.com, since no one seems to have replied or read that one)

 

I don't really get it.

 

So the guy used a website you designed, big deal. Actually I don't even like it, but that's my opinion. It's not like it's the culmination of a lifetime career. It isn't even very complex. Even for a novice like me, it doesn't seem like it would take a lot of time to complete.

 

2nd, the only "work" that you may have done that Lee includes in the current mod is the hilt pack. And quite honestly, Lee included a hilt pack with FFAmod 1.0, well before you (Marker0077) were even involved. Aside from a few edits, it doesn't seem like much work.

 

3rd, I have extensively tested damage in duelers, with two side by side computers, and find it to be no different than base game, jedimod, or jediplus (at defaults). Sure the blue lunge does 60hp. That is because it usually hits twice! Once on the initial swing, and again when the target is knocked back from the hit. Same as in basejk (1.04). Notice that if you stand a bit further away, only one hit connects, and damage is 30hp. If you stand even closer, the damage is higher, because you get hit more than once! And if you don't like it, it is SO easy to change! g_saberdamagescale can be set to what ever you want, so someone who thinks damage is too high on their server can change it to 0.9, or 0.8, or even lower if you like. Easily resolved! If orange damage is different, who really cares. It's not part of the base game and I think it is pretty much up to the author of the mod to determine its damage. With 2 sabers, IMHO, damage should be quite limited anyway.

 

4th, look at this from a realistic point of view. Lee wrote what could be the best mod for JK2. The actual code itself is completely his work. Hours upon hours were spent coding, testing, and coding again to make this mod what it is today. Sure you spent I'm sure quite a bit of time making hilts, skin packs, and installers for it. But if you volunteered to do this, you are entitled to no compensation whatsoever. Quite honestly, I think the animosity between you and Lee was the direct result of the argument about damage of lunge in 1.02, about which you have previously posted an apology about, after you realized you were wrong. If I were in Lee's position, I too would certainly have trouble working with someone who posted such things about me, even after the apology.

 

Lastly, you are given credit in the mod's docs for your work. From what I've seen in the modding community, this is often enough.

 

Regardless, what is your point? The website? I can't imagine that would be so important to you. The fact that Lee won't give you the source? I wouldn't either, now that certain attitudes have become apparent.

 

After all, this is a mod, for a game. The real coding was done by Lee, and only Lee. I'm sorry if you spent a lot of time on it, but that is what volunteering is all about. This is NOT a company, so don't expect it to be like one. Lee was kind enough to write a great mod, and it was great of you to try to make it better, but remember, the CODE for the mod was written by Lee. The rest of the stuff, the hilts, the models, the installer, and even the sound pack, was really all just fluff.

 

I just wanted to defend Lee, since no one else will. The mod, conceived by him, and coded by him, deserves recognition. I have played jk2 since the day it came out, and this is, by far, the best mod there is.

 

 

***Late edit***

 

Also Marker0077, for a long time now we have seen you post about releasing stuff like skin packs, hilts, and now your own mod. When? Do you still plan on releasing these? So far all I have seen is pre-release stuff, which isn't even available anymore. While you post about the problems you have with Lee, he continues to work on and improve what is already an excellent mod. Perhaps if you actually post something, your arguments and comments would have some more merit.

[Pyro]

RUMOR TOLD ME THAT WAS TOO MEAN SO I EDIT AND JUST SAY PLZ STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS THX NO ONE CARES REALLY

[g//anarki]

Originally posted by Pyro

RUMOR TOLD ME THAT WAS TOO MEAN SO I EDIT AND JUST SAY PLZ STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS THX NO ONE CARES REALLY

[Rumor]

Originally posted by g//plaZma

 

thxu

[Marker0077]

Originally posted by Inskipp

(Cross posted in gamingforums.com, since no one seems to have replied or read that one)

Sorry, I have been real busy lately with helping out family, which has kept me away from the computer quite a bit.

Originally posted by Inskipp

I don't really get it.

 

So the guy used a website you designed, big deal. Actually I don't even like it, but that's my opinion. It's not like it's the culmination of a lifetime career. It isn't even very complex. Even for a novice like me, it doesn't seem like it would take a lot of time to complete.

It's not the point, the guy broke a verbal agreement between the 2 of us. The deal was, he could use my work if I could use his - he refused (even though we had an agreement that I could use the work), therefore, he should not be permitted to use my work. End of subject.

Originally posted by Inskipp

2nd, the only "work" that you may have done that Lee includes in the current mod is the hilt pack. And quite honestly, Lee included a hilt pack with FFAmod 1.0, well before you (Marker0077) were even involved. Aside from a few edits, it doesn't seem like much work.

The hilt pack he was using before was from JediMod - not my hilt pack. I spent a lot of time on those hilts, especially the sword ones so that if you have colored sabers set to 0 0 0 50 50 50 the only thing you see is the actual sword hilt & not a colored blade. Then there are also some other hilt standards as well.

 

The hilts were not the only thing I did. I also did the loading screen & quite a few of the features implemented in the mod I never even got credit for. Hell, Lee told me I was an idiot because the g_timeouttospec CVar was for timing out 999 players, which if any of you MoHAA or SoF2 players well know, that is not the case. I showed him docs from other games, I not only did not recieve credit, I never even got an apology - that's Lee. Lee will never admit when he is wrong or make an apology. He never has in the 5 months that I knew him.

 

"It's a fine line between pride & ingorance."

 

The non-interferance code was originally conceived by a coder named Jaii De Herr & Lee rufuses to acknowledge that he is the original concept designer, regardless that Lee improved the code. Actually he did a whole new one but the point is, the concept was originally by him & Lee refuses to give him credit.

Originally posted by Inskipp

3rd, I have extensively tested damage in duelers, with two side by side computers, and find it to be no different than base game, jedimod, or jediplus (at defaults). Sure the blue lunge does 60hp. That is because it usually hits twice!

The blue lunge does 30 damage normally in base game & does 60 if you are up close. The blue lunge thing is old news & I had even apologized about the whole thing. The only reason I blew up is because of the way the dude treated me - you don't know half the crap I put up with before I left & you know why I left? Because he refused to fix Orange damage - that's it. Orange damage does about 55 in not only all previous versions of Duelers, all versions of JediMod & JediMod based mods as well.

Originally posted by Inskipp

g_saberdamagescale can be set to what ever you want, so someone who thinks damage is too high on their server can change it to 0.9, or 0.8, or even lower if you like. Easily resolved!

That CVar changes all damages, not just one, but it is neither here nor there.

Originally posted by Inskipp

If orange damage is different, who really cares.

Who cares? Umm, probably only the people that use it. :-/ I heard the Sith Vikings clan & the SoS'ers compaining about it quite a bit.

Originally posted by Inskipp

It's not part of the base game and I think it is pretty much up to the author of the mod to determine its damage.

Well the point of making the mod is to expand from the base game. As far as "pretty much up to the author", that's Lee talking. For you to stand there, have people vote on features & for you to not add them is just plain ignorant IMO. There are some features where I can see where he is coming from, such as abusive admin commands, but he declines 90% of the features the community recommends; & yes, I did start a lot of those threads, not all however.

 

Lee used to code ideas the community had, now all he does is code what he wants without considering what his users & fellow staff members might think. I didn't leave Duelers because of that though. He has the right to decline new features no matter what my opinion is. For him to not fix what he messed up on the other hand, is a different scenario.

Originally posted by Inskipp

4th, look at this from a realistic point of view. Lee wrote what could be the best mod for JK2. The actual code itself is completely his work. Hours upon hours were spent coding, testing, and coding again to make this mod what it is today. Sure you spent I'm sure quite a bit of time making hilts, skin packs, and installers for it. But if you volunteered to do this, you are entitled to no compensation whatsoever.

So basically what you are saying is, it's okay for him to use my work but it's not okay for me to use his? How convenient.

 

Look, if the guy was more of a team player then this would not have been an issue, like I said, I just wanted him to fix what he messed up in Orange - he refused. Then I asked him to keep the verbal agreement him & I had made & allow me to use the source code, in return I would still produce future updates for my work that he uses - he refused. Then I said fine, you don't want to honor our agreement, then you keep your work & I'll keep mine, he then stole my work. I'm sorry, I have just tried to be reasonable too many times, now it's my turn to not be reasonable. He brought this on himself.

Originally posted by Inskipp

Quite honestly, I think the animosity between you and Lee was the direct result of the argument about damage of lunge in 1.02, about which you have previously posted an apology about, after you realized you were wrong. If I were in Lee's position, I too would certainly have trouble working with someone who posted such things about me, even after the apology.

You don't see the email that go between us. The guy was rude & plays holier than though at times which is why I blew up. He thinks he's a pro just because he can code, even though other coders catch some mistakes on his part. I realize I should have remained professional regardless of his poor choice of verbage but I have put over 5 months into my work. You'll have to excuse me if I take things a little personally.

Originally posted by Inskipp

Lastly, you are given credit in the mod's docs for your work. From what I've seen in the modding community, this is often enough.

LMAO. I recieved credit for some of my work, not all. I didn't recieve credit for at least 70% of the features in Duelers itself, which I am not even pursuing for obvious reasons.

Originally posted by Inskipp

Regardless, what is your point? The website? I can't imagine that would be so important to you. The fact that Lee won't give you the source? I wouldn't either, now that certain attitudes have become apparent.

The point is if he is not willing to share his work, why should I share mine? The fact of the matter is we had an agreement - he broke it. Even then I was just going to part ways but instead, he had to steal my work. From my point of view, that makes you a liar & a thief.

Originally posted by Inskipp

After all, this is a mod, for a game. The real coding was done by Lee, and only Lee.[/QUOUE]Who did the media work? Who did all the graphic design for the loading screen, the website, etc; etc. Who set up the JK2Files.com account? Who set up the forums? Who did the hilts that everyone "raves" about?

 

There is a lot more to this than just the coding. Even if I could code, I wouldn't have time for it. No one had even heard of this thing until I came into the picture & I never even did any real media attention, only a little.

Originally posted by Inskipp

I'm sorry if you spent a lot of time on it, but that is what volunteering is all about.

Everybody's a volunteer, even Lee.

Originally posted by Inskipp

This is NOT a company, so don't expect it to be like one.

Well that certainly doesn't seem to be the case with Lee considering he labels my work as company property.

Originally posted by Inskipp

Lee was kind enough to write a great mod, and it was great of you to try to make it better, but remember, the CODE for the mod was written by Lee. The rest of the stuff, the hilts, the models, the installer, and even the sound pack, was really all just fluff.

Work is work. Lee is not the only coder in town & I had other coders lined up, he just knew he wouldn't be able to take the competition, which is why he broke our agreement.

 

Again, if he is not willing to share his work, then I don't see why I am obligated to share mine. I tried to work out a variety of negotiations with him - he refused all. It's his way or no way, so I chose no way.

 

Once Young Obi-Wan (Cool Saber Sounds mod author) heard of what Lee was doing, he told me he was going to ask Lee to just not use his work anymore either. Just goes to show you, if you don't want to share your work with others, perhaps others won't want to share their work with you. Perhaps if he could build a half decent site for himself, then he wouldn't have to steal from others.

Originally posted by Inskipp

I just wanted to defend Lee, since no one else will.

He's a big boy & I gave him quite a few opportunities to speak on his own behalf. Hell, I even offered to post his response everywhere I posted - he refused. It's his own fault.

Originally posted by Inskipp

The mod, conceived by him, and coded by him, deserves recognition.

LoL. Lee only conceived *maybe* 1/3 of the features in the mod. I am making a guess, I would have to look more thoroughly through the features, however, I know there are a ton of ideas in there I never got credit for, as well as others.

 

If I never got credit for a variety of the features, I'm sure the same thing applies to others as well.

Originally posted by Inskipp

I have played jk2 since the day it came out, and this is, by far, the best mod there is.

I still prefer 1.2.1 just because the actual dueling is better there. In 1.3, you can get hit just 1 time by a RDFA & have it take way too much damage. There are some other minor bugs as well but the Orange damage was a huge thing to me because I like using multiple blades.

Originally posted by Inskipp

Also Marker0077, for a long time now we have seen you post about releasing stuff like skin packs, hilts, and now your own mod. When? Do you still plan on releasing these? So far all I have seen is pre-release stuff, which isn't even available anymore.

Actually, that's somewhat of a funny part. Before I left Duelers, I had Duelers Full done. I needed to do a couple of minor things to Skins Pack A but I was done. Now I have to do a whole new installer, most of which is done & would have been released had it not been for my uncle moving & him needing my help. I have had some other family members that needed some help as well, so that has kept me away almost completely for the past 2 weeks. I am hoping to have everything out the door next week but we shall see. I also have some legality issues to look into with the project before it's release because of this ridiculous situation.

Originally posted by Inskipp

While you post about the problems you have with Lee, he continues to work on and improve what is already an excellent mod. Perhaps if you actually post something, your arguments and comments would have some more merit.

From what I hear, Lee hasn't been working on Duelers at all. He talks about doing 1.3.1 but hell, I heard about that even when I was still on the project.

 

In any event, whether or not my work is released or not has nothing to do merit-wise with what he steals from me, so I have no clue what you are on about there.

[Inskipp]

The hilts were not the only thing I did. I also did the loading screen & quite a few of the features implemented in the mod I never even got credit for. Hell, Lee told me I was an idiot because the g_timeouttospec CVar was for timing out 999 players, which if any of you MoHAA or SoF2 players well know, that is not the case. I showed him docs from other games, I not only did not recieve credit, I never even got an apology - that's Lee. Lee will never admit when he is wrong or make an apology. He never has in the 5 months that I knew him.

 

That's not the same Lee I know. I was in a clan with him for months, and never did he call anyone an "idiot" or not admit when he was wrong. Maybe if you weren't shoving docs for other games in his face, he would have agreed to listen, then again, maybe not.

 

The non-interferance code was originally conceived by a coder named Jaii De Herr & Lee rufuses to acknowledge that he is the original concept designer, regardless that Lee improved the code. Actually he did a whole new one but the point is, the concept was originally by him & Lee refuses to give him credit.

 

Credit for what? The idea? There are lots of idea's that are in Duelers that no one takes or gets credit for. I had an idea for a personal computer in 1980, and then Atari built one just like it! And I never got credit!

 

Who cares? Umm, probably only the people that use it. :-/ I heard the Sith Vikings clan & the SoS'ers compaining about it quite a bit.

 

As far as orange damage goes, I happen to be a member of SoS, and also the server administrator, who happens to read the logs, and never ONCE did I see someone complain about the orange damage. Certainly not any SoS members. Most of the members of SoS use one saber, and too, most of the Vikings that I have dueled. Thus the damage in orange stance is irrelevant.

 

Too, I spoke with Lee at length about damage, and he told me he never did any code that changes it. After some thought, we determined that it was possible for it to change, simply because the code is different than it was originally.

 

 

You don't see the email that go between us. The guy was rude & plays holier than though at times which is why I blew up. He thinks he's a pro just because he can code, even though other coders catch some mistakes on his part. I realize I should have remained professional regardless of his poor choice of verbage but I have put over 5 months into my work. You'll have to excuse me if I take things a little personally.

 

You are right, I have never seen any of the emails between you. So I do excuse you, I really have no right to post about any of this, but I do, because I like duelers.

 

LMAO. I recieved credit for some of my work, not all. I didn't recieve credit for at least 70% of the features in Duelers itself, which I am not even pursuing for obvious reasons.

 

70%? That is very odd. There was one night when Lee, Daelina, and I were playing on our server and Lee mentioned that he might code a mod. Thus FFAmod was born. I was upset about it at first, because I knew it would be the end of our clan, but ALL of the ideas for FFAmod were conceived that night, and several nights to follow. I didn't see you around then Marker, and as a matter of fact, MOST of the idea's were Daelina's. I don't see him posting in here about 'suing Lee' for stealing his 'ideas'.

 

Who did the media work? Who did all the graphic design for the loading screen, the website, etc; etc. Who set up the JK2Files.com account? Who set up the forums? Who did the hilts that everyone "raves" about?

 

Who cares? Lee wrote the mod for us. We continue to use it, to make our playing experience better. Everything above you mention, while noteworthy, have nothing at all to do with the code for the mod. As far as the hilts, it was real nice of you to help out with that, but quite honestly, I like to duel. I don't care who has what hilt, or who made it.

 

There is a lot more to this than just the coding. Even if I could code, I wouldn't have time for it. No one had even heard of this thing until I came into the picture & I never even did any real media attention, only a little.

 

I disagree. We had many players using Duelers even before you were involved. I concede that if things had gone as you intended, the mod might have grown to be the most popular for the game. But alas, the few servers that run it seem to be quite content with it's features, and continue to use it.

 

LoL. Lee only conceived *maybe* 1/3 of the features in the mod. I am making a guess, I would have to look more thoroughly through the features, however, I know there are a ton of ideas in there I never got credit for, as well as others.

 

I agree. I was there that night. A lot of the ideas came from Daelina, and even a couple from me. Others were the results of specific clans requests. And quite a few of them came from the parts of jediplus 4.3 that we liked.

 

From what I hear, Lee hasn't been working on Duelers at all. He talks about doing 1.3.1 but hell, I heard about that even when I was still on the project.

 

Odd, I have been beta testing 1.3.1 for over a week. The new features added were ideas from the clans The Jedi Order, SoS, and the Vikings, along with some other posts in the suggestions forum. It is very well done, and I'm sure it won't be long before a Duelers 1.3.1 final is released.

 

Other than all this Marker, I have no quarrel with you. Lee has written a tailor-made mod for whomever chooses to download it. I did not intend for this to become what now looks like a flame war, and which will likely get this thread closed because of that.

 

By the way, good luck with your lawsuit, you are likely to need it.

 

(P.S.) How do you get quotes from other posts to say 'posted by so-and-so? I can't seem to get the knack of it.

[Marker0077]

Originally posted by Inskipp

That's not the same Lee I know. I was in a clan with him for months, and never did he call anyone an "idiot" or not admit when he was wrong.

I knew him for 5 months, he never once admitted when he was wrong nor apologized for anything - not once.

 

How much communication was there between you & Lee? Did you speak with one another on a daily basis? We did for quite some time. Perhaps he is not the person you think he is or perhaps he is just bitter about letting a so called "amateur" know more about certain things than he does. Lee knows more about some things than I do & vice versa, there's no shame in that, yet I still had to deal with it.

Originally posted by Inskipp

Maybe if you weren't shoving docs for other games in his face, he would have agreed to listen, then again, maybe not.

Shoving? Ya dude, I really shoved it in his face. That just goes to show how much you know on this.

 

I told him he should fix the CVar & what the CVar did, that's when he said I didn't know what I was talking about. The "idiot" thing I believe was an exxageration on my part, my apologies, I believe his exact words were something like "that is not what that feature does & I have no idea where you get your information but that is not what the feature does" or something like that. There were some other derogatory comments like I was an "amateur" & whatnot (only amateur modding for 10 years), so while he may not have actually said "idiot", it's not all that far from it either now is it?

Originally posted by Inskipp

Credit for what? The idea? There are lots of idea's that are in Duelers that no one takes or gets credit for. I had an idea for a personal computer in 1980, and then Atari built one just like it! And I never got credit!

Now you are just being irrational. Saying you came up with the concept for the personal computer & people adding ideas you came up with in a mod is a huge exageration - huge.

 

Lee obviously felt the need to give credit for ideas & concepts in the mod, otherwise why would he have even added that I came up with the multi-duel concept & Daelina came up with the fuel for jetpack concept, etc; etc. This is no different.

 

Before you go posting about, please think about what you are saying because like I said, now you are just being ridiculous.

Originally posted by Inskipp

As far as orange damage goes, I happen to be a member of SoS, and also the server administrator, who happens to read the logs, and never ONCE did I see someone complain about the orange damage. Certainly not any SoS members. Most of the members of SoS use one saber, and too, most of the Vikings that I have dueled. Thus the damage in orange stance is irrelevant.

Just because you weren't around when it happened, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I haven't played Duelers since I left the team but when I did play, I would say something about it then others in the room would agree. I'm sure others would like the damage changed, afterall, I did do a poll on whether or not that should be changed. It was damn near unanamous, did Lee care? Hell no, because he's not the team player he used to be. Check your own forums, lucasforums, darkstats forums, sith vikings forums or jk2files.com forums for the thread if you don't believe me.

 

Actually, you probably can't find it on JK2Files.com forums because Lee removed just about all the threads I made. Instead of speaking his opinion on the matter, he just removes it altogether.

 

Anyways, the Orange does matter to anyone who uses it; Again, that's Lee talking.

Originally posted by Inskipp

Too, I spoke with Lee at length about damage, and he told me he never did any code that changes it. After some thought, we determined that it was possible for it to change, simply because the code is different than it was originally.

He told me I was mistaken about the Orange damage, even when I had Daelina & even you I believe, informing him that there was a difference in damage. I don't give a damn what the code says, play the mod, you'll see it plain as day.

Originally posted by Inskipp

Thus FFAmod was born. I was upset about it at first, because I knew it would be the end of our clan, but ALL of the ideas for FFAmod were conceived that night, and several nights to follow. I didn't see you around then Marker, and as a matter of fact, MOST of the idea's were Daelina's.

Well obviously I am not referring to FFAMod considering I wasn't a part of the team then. The mod was changed to Duelers when I became a part of the team, Duelers versions are what I am referring to. I would think that would be common knowledge, but whatever.

Originally posted by Inskipp

I don't see him posting in here about 'suing Lee' for stealing his 'ideas'.

Well that's a mute point. Concept design is not as much work as the actual coding, which is why I don't pursue that. You can't seriously ask Lee to remove the feature just because you leave the team, it's ridiculous. Work I did on the other hand is a different situation.

Originally posted by Inskipp

Who cares? Lee wrote the mod for us. We continue to use it, to make our playing experience better. Everything above you mention, while noteworthy, have nothing at all to do with the code for the mod. As far as the hilts, it was real nice of you to help out with that, but quite honestly, I like to duel. I don't care who has what hilt, or who made it.

Do you even read what I post man? This whole thing is about him not using my work. EVERYONE DID SOMETHING. Coding, while is the centerpiece, is not everything. NO ONE even heard of Duelers until I came around, again, I never even did any real media attention. Wait until CM for JK2 is out. All the downloads that you see from that *could* have been Duelers. This was his choice - not mine.

 

Anyways, the point is I tried to work out a variety of arrangements with him. #1 I would stay on Duelers if he fixed Orange damage - he refused. #2 He could continue to use my work as long as he honored the verbal agreement him & I had already made, which was allowing me to use the source code - he refused. Even after he went back on our agreement I was willing to just part ways, he keeps his work, I keep mine. I was trying to be a nice guy & give him 3 days pre-warning about him needing to put a new site up, instead he stole my work.

Originally posted by Inskipp

I disagree. We had many players using Duelers even before you were involved. I concede that if things had gone as you intended, the mod might have grown to be the most popular for the game. But alas, the few servers that run it seem to be quite content with it's features, and continue to use it.

There were 3 or 4, maybe 5 servers - tops running FFAMod. I don't know why you would believe that.

Originally posted by Inskipp

Odd, I have been beta testing 1.3.1 for over a week. The new features added were ideas from the clans The Jedi Order, SoS, and the Vikings, along with some other posts in the suggestions forum. It is very well done, and I'm sure it won't be long before a Duelers 1.3.1 final is released.

Well if *anything* of mine is in there, don't be too surprised if it gets pulled from the files section. I still have a couple of surprises yet.

 

I do not plan on pursuing removing the older versions of Duelers from the files section, that is just not fair, however, I have been getting treated far from fair with this as far as Lee is concerned. I have tried to be Mr. Nice Guy & time & time again I have been taken advantage of. I am getting real close to the point of unreasonability.

Originally posted by Inskipp

By the way, good luck with your lawsuit, you are likely to need it.

You think so? :-) We'll see. I have of yet to get in contact with a copyright lawyer, I keep getting sidetracked but it should be sometime soon. From what I have read, I won't need any luck.

Originally posted by Inskipp

(P.S.) How do you get quotes from other posts to say 'posted by so-and-so? I can't seem to get the knack of it.

Click on the "quote" button on the bottom right of posts.

[g//anarki]

Refer to the above post posted by Pyro. All the info you need is there. Problem solved

[Marker0077]

Originally posted by g//plaZma

Refer to the above post posted by Pyro. All the info you need is there. Problem solved

If you're not going to contribute anything useful to the thread, don't post please. Especially considering this is not something you even care about.

[Darklighter]

Plazma, please post things relevant to the thread topic. Simple "yes I agree" comments are not welcome here.

[Lan Judd]

Originally posted by Inskipp

That's not the same Lee I know. I was in a clan with him for months, and never did he call anyone an "idiot" or not admit when he was wrong. Maybe if you weren't shoving docs for other games in his face, he would have agreed to listen, then again, maybe not. <<<<WELL THEN MARKENT HAS A GRUDGE AGAINST HIM OR HE'S TELLING THE TRUTH

 

 

 

Credit for what? The idea? There are lots of idea's that are in Duelers that no one takes or gets credit for. I had an idea for a personal computer in 1980, and then Atari built one just like it! And I never got credit! <<<YOU DIDNT START MAKING IT. YOU JUST CAME UP WITH THE IDEA

 

 

 

As far as orange damage goes, I happen to be a member of SoS, and also the server administrator, who happens to read the logs, and never ONCE did I see someone complain about the orange damage. Certainly not any SoS members. Most of the members of SoS use one saber, and too, most of the Vikings that I have dueled. Thus the damage in orange stance is irrelevant.

 

Too, I spoke with Lee at length about damage, and he told me he never did any code that changes it. After some thought, we determined that it was possible for it to change, simply because the code is different than it was originally. <<<< IF YOU BELIEVE THIS YOUR THE GULLIBALEIST PERSON ON THE EARTH

 

 

 

 

You are right, I have never seen any of the emails between you. So I do excuse you, I really have no right to post about any of this, but I do, because I like duelers.

 

 

 

70%? That is very odd. There was one night when Lee, Daelina, and I were playing on our server and Lee mentioned that he might code a mod. Thus FFAmod was born. I was upset about it at first, because I knew it would be the end of our clan, but ALL of the ideas for FFAmod were conceived that night, and several nights to follow. I didn't see you around then Marker, and as a matter of fact, MOST of the idea's were Daelina's. I don't see him posting in here about 'suing Lee' for stealing his 'ideas'. <<<SHE CAME UP WITH THE IDEA. SHE DIDN'T DO ANY WORK

 

 

 

Who cares? Lee wrote the mod for us. We continue to use it, to make our playing experience better. Everything above you mention, while noteworthy, have nothing at all to do with the code for the mod. As far as the hilts, it was real nice of you to help out with that, but quite honestly, I like to duel. I don't care who has what hilt, or who made it. <<<< STOLE THE WORK

 

 

 

I disagree. We had many players using Duelers even before you were involved. I concede that if things had gone as you intended, the mod might have grown to be the most popular for the game. But alas, the few servers that run it seem to be quite content with it's features, and continue to use it. <<<<THEY DIDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM OR THE SERVERS HOST WERE FARTHEADS

 

 

 

I agree. I was there that night. A lot of the ideas came from Daelina, and even a couple from me. Others were the results of specific clans requests. And quite a few of them came from the parts of jediplus 4.3 that we liked. <<<<< ONCE AGAIN IT WAS AN IDEA. YOU DIDN'T DO ANY WORK

 

 

 

Odd, I have been beta testing 1.3.1 for over a week. The new features added were ideas from the clans The Jedi Order, SoS, and the Vikings, along with some other posts in the suggestions forum. It is very well done, and I'm sure it won't be long before a Duelers 1.3.1 final is released.

 

Other than all this Marker, I have no quarrel with you. Lee has written a tailor-made mod for whomever chooses to download it. I did not intend for this to become what now looks like a flame war, and which will likely get this thread closed because of that.

 

By the way, good luck with your lawsuit, you are likely to need it.<<<< THIS IS WHERE YOUR PISSED EVERYONE OFF.

 

(P.S.) How do you get quotes from other posts to say 'posted by so-and-so? I can't seem to get the knack of it.<<< THIS SHOWS HOW NAIVE YOU ARE THE "WORLD AROUND YOU"

 

Yo skipp, why don't you go saber rape yourself cuz Market has 100% every damn right to b1t<h about this. Market, I agree with completely with you on this and Inskipp you need to be quiet (hush litte Inskipp before your mouth gets you grounded. LoL) because right now you've pissed a lot a people off cuz they understand were Lee is being a jackass <<<< Yea Lee thats what your acting like). Also Inskipp talk to me on AIM and I'll explain it better.

[Inskipp]

Originally posted by Lan Judd

Yo skipp, why don't you go saber rape yourself cuz Market has 100% every damn right to b1t<h about this.

 

Ok, I will go "saber rape" myself about this, but I will do it in Jedi Academy. Well spoken by the way...

 

Didn't you notice that there has been no activity in this thread for almost 2 months?

[Luc Solar]

Lol...I think there's like 3 people in the whole wide world who have any interest in this topic whatsoever.

 

Can't you guys just work it out via pm's or something?

 

So...yeah - what Pyro said.

[Inskipp]

Originally posted by Luc Solar

Lol...I think there's like 3 people in the whole wide world who have any interest in this topic whatsoever.

 

That's where you are wrong. NOBODY has any interest in this topic whatsoever. Jedi Academy is out. I don't intend to play much JK2 anymore. I did get a good chuckle out of Lan Judd's post though. I really don't think GULLIBALEIST is a word. Yes, a good chuckle.

[Rad Blackrose]

 

Nuff said.

[Marker0077]

Soz about the delay on the response, I spend most of my time offline currently working on the project.

 

As for Rad Blackrose, Inskipp, & Luc Solar, if you have no interest in the topic then why post here? Do you have nothing better to do than to complain here? I haven't worked on the Cool Mods for MoHAA project for over a year & I still get fan mail, my mail is no different for Cool Mods for the JK Series.

 

If you have no interest in the project or in this case, affairs that relate to it - that's fine, you are more than entitled to your own opinion, however, the people that are interested in the project come here to hear about the project, not to listen to you cry about someone posting information on it.

 

Lan Judd, I appreciate the support but please refrain yourself from leaving derogatory comments, it only degrades you down to their level. Don't get me wrong, I mean no offense, all I'm saying is we come here to exchange information between one another, leave the derogatory comments in flame war threads.

 

As for the whole Duelers thing, it's a dead issue. The Duelers mod files are no longer hosted at JK2Files.com or anywhere else as far as I know & as long as they contain ANY of my work & they are posted publically, I will pursue whomever hosts the files legally. That's just what Lee gets for being a selfish prick about it & if he wants to use others work in the future then he should share his own.

 

FYI, Cool Mods for JK should be ready in about 30 to 90 days & it will have 1 version for JK2 & another for JK3, so good stuff to come.

 

Many thanks to the authors that give me copyright over my modified version of their work.

[MasterN64]

eerrr, i stoped after the first few paragraphs. but anyway the parts i did read was, interesting.......

[traj]

Originally posted by Darklighter

Plazma, please post things relevant to the thread topic. Simple "yes I agree" comments are not welcome here.

 

Yes I agree. Stop it Plazma.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Marker0077

it is also a place where you can leave commentary on the upcoming release of Cool Mods for JK2.

You asked for commentary about the project, and Rad Blackrose, Inskipp, and Luc Solar gave their opinions. You have to take the good with the bad if you ask for comments.

 

As for mine, I don't have an interest in JO mods any more, since I am now playing JA. Not only that, but all the things that would make me want to go back to JO, like the SP and MP maps, models, sabers, and so on more or less work just fine in JA anyway. There really isn't anything to make me want to play a JO mod.

 

That, and I enjoy the sabers more or less how they are anyway

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

his side of the story is), his position is this was work I had done for Duelers so it should stay with Duelers just like if this was a real business but if this was a real business, a person would receive payment (i.e. being permitted to use the source code, which BTW I did try to work out with him as a deal beforehand) or the persons work would go with them.

From what I see, he is right. If the work was done for this project, and you left and this other guy still owns it, then he still owns the work done for the project. By leaving, you give up any right to that work. At least that's how things work in a "real" business (whatever that is). The person's work never goes with them when they leave a company.

 

As for the payment thing, that isn't really an issue either. If you had been promised payment in the first place and didn't receive it, that's one thing. But this was never part of the agreement, correct?

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

A company would not use a persons work & not pay them for it, this should be no different if you going to say the work I have done is "Duelers property".

But if the inital agreement was that there wouldn't be payment, then of course they could still use the work. This happens all the time in the real world. It doesn't change the fact that the work is the property of the project, which from what I understand you no longer own.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

All in all, me leaving Duelers would have never even been an issue in the first place if Lee was being more of a team player.

It is nice when everyone gets along, but you cannot demand that everyone be a "team player". Just a sad fact of life.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

There were a variety of threads that were taken up on various ideas that I & some of the other users had & we voted on them.

I don't really see how voting on ideas really means anything. If the other party is not interested in them, voting on them means nothing.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

It was at this point that I realized that he was no longer going to be reasonable nor a team player (like he used to be), so that's when I decided to give him these 2 ultimatums...

Which he seems to have refused. I think that is within his right.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

I am now once again giving Lee this opportunity to tell his side of the story, although I highly doubt he will have anything to say but you never know.

Which is fine. I don't think his responding in public forums solves much. Who does he need to convince?

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

As for me, I still plan on doing Cool Mods for JK2 which will feature the web site I had created. If Lee chooses to use stolen work that is his choice, however, while I was originally happy to finally let this thing rest, Lee's choices on removing my posts & stealing my work is making feel like I not only need to bring this back up but do it on a much larger scale which means I am going to be doing quite a bit of media attention on this matter.

You can choose to do so, but keep in mind that if you keep bringing the issue up then it will never die. Also, others may disagree with you and that may hurt the exposure for your project. And since JO is being played substantially less now that JA is out, you probably need all the good publicity you can get.

 

EDIT: P.S. Most of the links you give don't work for me...

[Marker0077]

First off, soz for the long delay on the response. Again, I am not online much anymore.

Originally posted by Prime

You asked for commentary about the project, and Rad Blackrose, Inskipp, and Luc Solar gave their opinions. You have to take the good with the bad if you ask for comments.

Saying "NOBODY has any interest in this topic whatsoever" & leaving a picture that says "Die thread die" isn't really commentary in my book, more like crying.

Originally posted by Prime

I don't have an interest in JO mods any more, since I am now playing JA

It's Cool Mods for the Jedi Knight Series, not just JK2. I want to release them both at the same time but we'll see what happens, I am doing quite a bit of work on both.

Originally posted by Prime

There really isn't anything to make me want to play a JO mod

These are client side mods mainly but need to be on servers that are pure obviously, so it's really neither here nor there.

Originally posted by Prime

From what I see, he is right. If the work was done for this project, and you left and this other guy still owns it, then he still owns the work done for the project. By leaving, you give up any right to that work. At least that's how things work in a "real" business (whatever that is). The person's work never goes with them when they leave a company.

I could see that applying if I worked for the guy - I didn't, we were partners & he knew my work would go with me if I would leave, which is why he stole my work.

 

Regardless, this isn't a company & even if it was, companies pay their employees, I mean come on - name 1 company that doesn't pay their employees.

 

Bottom line is if he's not willing to share his work, I don't see why I would be obligated to share mine. I am morally & legally in the right on this (considering I own copyright on my work).

Originally posted by Prime

As for the payment thing, that isn't really an issue either. If you had been promised payment in the first place and didn't receive it, that's one thing. But this was never part of the agreement, correct?

Ya he did actually. He said I could use the source code for my own mod with the Jedi Academy mod coder - he backed out of the deal.

Originally posted by Prime

But if the inital agreement was that there wouldn't be payment, then of course they could still use the work. This happens all the time in the real world. It doesn't change the fact that the work is the property of the project, which from what I understand you no longer own.

Lets say you use your car to deliver pizzas for Domino's pizza or maybe even let some of the other employees use your car & then you quit, should Domino's get your car? It's ridiculous, I let him use what is mine because we were *supposed* to be a team.

 

Just because it was used for the project doesn't automatically entitle him to ownership - not by a long shot.

Originally posted by Prime

It is nice when everyone gets along, but you cannot demand that everyone be a "team player". Just a sad fact of life.

It's a choice he had to make. I'm either apart of the team or I am not & if I am going to be treated with no value then why should I stick around? The guy used to be a team player & things were great then, I'm sure I am not the easiest person to get along with at times but I guarantee you I put up with a hell of alot more of his BS than vice versa. I'm glad that I am no longer on the team, it's alot less stress. The community are the real ones that suffer. It's a damn shame but I can only do so much.

Originally posted by Prime

I don't really see how voting on ideas really means anything. If the other party is not interested in them, voting on them means nothing.

If people want something added & it's nothing that breeds admin abuse (such as slap commands) then why the hell would you not add it? Giving the people what they want is one of the things that made it such a great mod.

Originally posted by Prime

Which he seems to have refused. I think that is within his right.

No one was questioning his right to decline the offer, the problem was if you don't want to share your toys with the rest of the kids on the playground, don't cry (or in this case, steal) the rest of the other kids. A somewhat degrading analogy, I appologize, but suits the situation rather well IMO.

Originally posted by Prime

Which is fine. I don't think his responding in public forums solves much. Who does he need to convince?

Other modders no longer want their work associated with the man because of this. This was his opportunity to salvage what remained of his reputation in the community.

Originally posted by Prime

You can choose to do so, but keep in mind that if you keep bringing the issue up then it will never die. Also, others may disagree with you and that may hurt the exposure for your project. And since JO is being played substantially less now that JA is out, you probably need all the good publicity you can get.

I'm not worried about publicity & I only post it because I get people asking "so what happened" so I leave the information posted so I don't have to answer emails, or IMs, or whatever.

 

Besides, I tried to do all I could for the man & I got screwed over in the end. I think letting everyone who wants to know about it know is the least I could get.

Originally posted by Prime

EDIT: P.S. Most of the links you give don't work for me...

Sorry, I'm not online much & until I have the project done, it's not really a concern of mine. I will have them fixed when I can though, soz for any inconvenience.

 

Marker0077 LATE EDIT: You know what's funny? The people that say no one is interested in this thread, yet it has been viewed over 1000 times when most of the other threads don't even get viewed 1/10th of that.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Marker0077

First off, soz for the long delay on the response. Again, I am not online much anymore.Saying "NOBODY has any interest in this topic whatsoever" & leaving a picture that says "Die thread die" isn't really commentary in my book, more like crying.

You might not consider it commentary, but they might. I don't see how it is crying though. They are just expressing their opinions, which you asked for. Sure they could have expressed them in a different manner, but hey.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

It's Cool Mods for the Jedi Knight Series, not just JK2. I want to release them both at the same time but we'll see what happens, I am doing quite a bit of work on both.These are client side mods mainly but need to be on servers that are pure obviously, so it's really neither here nor there.

I am not all that familiar with this mod, so I'm not sure what it really changes. I know that for myself, and I suspect for most others, JA is definitely what we are playing right now. JO mods just don't seem to be in too much demand these days. If they are, it is only because they are usable in JA (like maps and such).

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

I could see that applying if I worked for the guy - I didn't, we were partners & he knew my work would go with me if I would leave, which is why he stole my work.

If this was the expressed arangement, fine. All I am saying is that this is not the typical business arrangement, either between employer and employee, or partners.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Regardless, this isn't a company & even if it was, companies pay their employees, I mean come on - name 1 company that doesn't pay their employees.

Any company that uses volunteers?

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Bottom line is if he's not willing to share his work, I don't see why I would be obligated to share mine. I am morally & legally in the right on this (considering I own copyright on my work).

OK, I need to get this straight in my head. The code/website that is in question, was this created for the partnership and project, or did you bring that with you into the project, and it was only used by the project? If it was created for the project, then the copyright belongs to the project, which sadly you are no longer a part of.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Lets say you use your car to deliver pizzas for Domino's pizza or maybe even let some of the other employees use your car & then you quit, should Domino's get your car? It's ridiculous, I let him use what is mine because we were *supposed* to be a team.

Again, if you brought the code with you into the arrangement, fine. But if it was created for the project, it is owned by the project, and this example doesn't apply. It would be like saying that you are entitled to the company car when you leave the company. This is also ridiculous.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Just because it was used for the project doesn't automatically entitle him to ownership - not by a long shot.It's a choice he had to make.

But if it was created for the project, it does entitle him to ownership, because he owns the project. When you left the project, nothing that was owned by the project goes with you.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

I'm either apart of the team or I am not & if I am going to be treated with no value then why should I stick around?

If that is how you feel then by all means leave. I'm just saying that depending on what work was done for the project, the rights to it will not leave with you.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

If people want something added & it's nothing that breeds admin abuse (such as slap commands) then why the hell would you not add it? Giving the people what they want is one of the things that made it such a great mod.

Well, just because people want something in the game doesn't necessarily mean it is a good thing. I'm not refering to your mod in particular, just a general comment. Many people want things that would adversely affect the balances inherent in the game, as well as reduce the enjoyment of the game for others (for example the slap commands you mentioned). Putting these sorts of things in would not improve the game, even if there are many who want it. All I am saying is that many things should be taken into consideration when adding features. Just because some people want it is not enough, IMO.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Other modders no longer want their work associated with the man because of this. This was his opportunity to salvage what remained of his reputation in the community. I'm not worried about publicity & I only post it because I get people asking "so what happened" so I leave the information posted so I don't have to answer emails, or IMs, or whatever.

Fair enough.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Sorry, I'm not online much & until I have the project done, it's not really a concern of mine. I will have them fixed when I can though, soz for any inconvenience.

No problem. Just letting you know.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Marker0077 LATE EDIT: You know what's funny? The people that say no one is interested in this thread, yet it has been viewed over 1000 times when most of the other threads don't even get viewed 1/10th of that.

Well, don't confuse view counts with interest. The first time I popped in this thread was not because I was interested in the mod, but because I was wondering about what kind of rant this would be I suspect that many (most?) of those views were not by people who were wondering about the fate of this mod, but by people who were wondering who the hell Lee Oattes is, why he is trying to hide what you say, and generally hoping to get a laugh out of some good flames.

[MasterSidious]

I think force mod 2.0 owns everything else. And Jedi Academy sucks, just for admin power plus really buggy. I know this is the shortest post in here but it would make my hands hurt typing THAT MUCH.

[Doctor Shaft]

Sigh... I can't believe this discussion was even resurrected. Anyway, without being involved with Duelers for more than maybe two days of playing it, then seeing that age old post about disagreements, here's my take.

 

1.) Marker, you got jipped. Yeah, you guys made a 'verbal' agreement, and at the end, Lee, deciding that he did not want you to tarnish the vision of his game, since he did indeed construct it, backed out of the deal. He went against his word, that you claim he gave you. Don't worry, I believe you. He did it... TOO BAD.

 

2.) Hilt packs, sounds, installers, mean absolutely nothing when there is no substance to put them on. If I make the filling of the tasty pie, but you make the oh-so-easy to construct crust, are you suddenly a significant contributor to the project? Your name was acknowledged for the work you have done. He did the creme filling, you did the crust. No one cares that much about the crust, nor do we recognize it as the core of a mod. If people were that desperate for skins and hilts, they could have looked elsewhere. Thank you, however, for taking the time to remove that kind of hassle. I'll admit, it was hard work, and decent of you. Move on.

 

3.) Thanks to a squabble over orange stance damage, which in the end, was so NOT-controversial, and HARDLY problematic to the 'balance' of your mod, Duelers is dead. Thank you again Marker, you did a fabulous job. It's obvious, considering that Lee doesn't ever post back, neither at the old forums or the new threads, that you're the focal point of the squabble. I'm sorry that you didn't get every part of your Duelers turned into Nerf Wiffle Bat mod. The man didn't feel like changing something that hardly needed fixing. Green stance was slower, did the same damage I think, but had it's uses. Orange was definitely NOT the end all of weaponry.

 

Despite my obviously biased opinion about Duelers... I'll just come out and flat admit that I didn't like the mod. I don't like playing games with no risk. That's irrelevant to the discussion though. What is relevant is this. He went back on his word. It's done, you don't have power over work he sweated his life over. HE changed his mind, it hurts your feelings.... eh, too bad. He has your work, he's using it in some ways even though you don't want him to... yeah, too bad again. You should have thought about what you were putting out there in the first place. It's obvious Lee was.

 

It's a cutthroat world. No, I'm not trying to say that Lee was right and you were wrong, or even the wrong way around. I'm just saying that at the core of it... your little squabble over a saber stance not being tweaked so that it hit like a wiffle bat destroyed Duelers. Votes from a mass of people doesn't matter. Lee didn't want to code it, and you gave him trouble. Now everyone has slit throats. Duelers is dead... and personally, i never thought it was good. Nice effort though. On that note however, it seems we've all learned a lesson from this. Don't tag on to a mod with a coder unless you're absolutely certain that the two of you are seeing eye to eye. And second... get better diplomacy skills when dealing with arguments about the mod. It's obvious that one side pissed off the other. I think you know who started it. The end. Let's all move on now.