Solo Saber Nerfed Thread

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Spider AL

As soon as you make a point, I address it. The fact that you haven't made many points so far is perhaps the reason for the fact that most of my posts are by rote defences against predictable flames, the major component of all your posts.

 

Once again you fail to grasp the gist of the argument. The point is that NOBODY is qualified to make gameplay changes at this point. Therefore, you shouldn't run around demanding such changes yet. That's crystal clear, I should have thought. We shall see whether Ardent manages to purposely misunderstand it.

 

Lol, because of course my only argument is that none of us have the foundation to build demands for gameplay changes yet. I'm simply stating the obvious, which in a roundabout way you've admitted is obvious several times so far. Do you see me demanding gameplay changes? Of course you don't. I hope that's clear enough. If not, do tell me.

 

Well it would appear that I know better than to flame people and churn out repetitive trollishness. Unlike SOME people.

 

But once again you're mistaken. I've stated my own ideal time for a patch to be discussed. But that's not the specific statement I've made, is it. The specific statement I've made is that NOW is too early. Which it is, by any stretch of a sane imagination.

 

 

Yes, I'm sure you "PWN" me. Despite the fact that we play different gametypes, the fact that you've never played me... and the pertinent and pesky fact that you know nothing about my skill level in this or any other game.

 

No, I'm sure you're right, and that what you just posted wasn't the most laughable and feeble excuse for an immature trolling flame I've ever seen in my life.

 

Uh-huh. I'd always theorised that people like yourself had a thin grasp on what we call "reality". You just became a confirmation of my life's work. Ta.

 

Mmkay. Firstly being in favour of changes doesn't mean wanting a premature patch. And if you're asserting that the majority of people who post on LF want a premature patch for JA, well you'd have to produce accurate numbers to back that up. The field seems quite balanced to me, and new anti-premature-patch spokespeople are turning up all the time, while your group seems to be dwindling fast as it tuckers itself out.

 

Secondly the reason there's a number of you on these forums lobbying for a premature patch is that you all popped into your, and each other's, clan forums to pick up support. You're a tiny number really, but one that shouts loudly, and the reason you think opposition is small is that you're wilfully blind to it, rubbishing it as soon as it appears and attempting to ignore its most pertinent points. The fact that many of the people who are happily playing the game haven't posted in here is yet... because they're HAPPY, is another slap in the face for your self-indulgence as a group.

 

Now you've shot yourself in the foot again, because you failed to remember this: You're the one who claims you're in a majority, so YOU have to back it up. That you have not done. We have never claimed anything of the kind, so once again, we come back to you, your group and you personally, who have done nothing to prove wild unsubstantiated claims which are designed to add weight to an untenable position, but merely serve to show it up for what it is.

 

Ah, when it's not YOUR problem, what do you say? "Deal with it". When it is your problem, you react violently to any suggestion that you "deal with it", instead demanding sweeping and instant changes from Raven. Lol, and you accused me of hypocrisy earlier? This just keeps getting better and better.

 

Oh of course. You're now claiming that you are an expert in JA, and that you were an expert in JO from the moment it was released. Good luck on that one. Blaahahaha.

 

Oh there were about twenty of you milling around at one point. That seems to be down to around five now, and we on the other hand are just growing and growing. Welcome to silence. It's all around you.

 

Closing the thread? That's great. Then all these silly demands for a premature patch can be forgotten... and we can move on to the NEXT silly premature-patch-demanding thread. It really makes no odds to us.

 

Oh yes, you're leet NG CTF0rz. "Handy with tha steel".

 

The JO competitive community wasn't a healthy one Ardent. Not compared to CS or Q. The fact that some NG fellows from JO may have decided to have an international competition with some of their other NG friends from Canada, and declared themselves "Team USA" means little or nothing to me. Alleging yourself to be a decent player of JO certainly doesn't give you the right to demand that gameplay be altered prematurely.

 

If being a decent JO player gave one the right to change gameplay prematurely, guess what. I'd be lobbying for my own idea of the perfect game right now. Of course, that would be self-indulgent and immature... but hey.

 

And there's silly old me thinking that the Theory of Relativity "when boiled down" pointed out that the motion of a system in one frame of reference affects time relative to (in other words when viewed from) another frame of reference. Now I know better, thanks to Ardent.

 

Now I know that Einstein wants a premature gameplay patch for JA.

 

He's dead though. CAN you REALLY trust the judgement of a dead physicist? No matter how brilliant?

 

All that self-indulgent pseudo-intellectualism missed one very important point: Conscious interference in a natural process such as evolution, in this case evolution of the game and its own unique flavour, style and community, causes abberant effects. If the game's fate is to lose a valuable commodity like you and your friends to Halo, then that is it's fate. None may go against the will of fate.

 

And none may jeopardise the welfare of the JA community to satisfy some unrealistic pre-game expectations.

 

Once again you are wilfully blind. It's too early for anyone to claim to be a JA expert. Therefore, I am not qualified. Therefore YOU are not qualified. Therefore NOBODY is qualified, and we should all wait happily until we've amassed sufficient playtime and experience to call ourselves experts.

 

Naturally though, you consider yourself to be the chosen one, gifted with the uber-power of insta-leetness. That's fine. Good luck with that. The rest of us mortals will wait for a prudent time to evaluate gameplay modifications, thanks.

 

Ahh so THAT'S where you went wrong. Well my friend, I'll alleviate the burden of fallibility from your shoulders on this particular issue, and straighten you out.

 

YOU and the NG CTFers want to CHANGE the gameplay of JA, prematurely, in a patch. This is not merely the expression of an opinion, it's an active attempt to alter the game for EVERYONE. Thus, it's selfish and dangerous. Free speech is fine, but the right free speech doesn't cover knife-attacks.

 

Umm... you've just misunderstood things again, apparently. That response of mine was fully pertinent and accurate.

 

 

Oh we've descended to quoting people out of context have we? How schoolyard. What debate forums have you been frequenting? Sheesh.

 

The original line I typed out, for the benefit of anyone still slightly confused about the level of Ardent's maturity was "I argue and patronise? No I don't." How painful it is to watch this flailing. The coup de grace is needed perhaps?

 

Nah.

 

Yep, thank god Raven liked the community enough to try to fix all the stupid problems created by 1.03, the kind of premature patch you're currently asking for. Thanks for reminding me.

 

Urrm...

 

Ardent sits. He sits in the carnage that he brought upon himself, a wasteland of burned out buildings and desolate scrub brush. He whispers something over and over to himself through his charred and wasted mouth as he rocks back and forth mechanically.

 

If the observer chanced to come close enough, perhaps he would hear the plaintive murmur more clearly...

 

"I win... I win... I win... Stfu..."

 

 

Hear hear Vanor, well put.

 

Sorry Unnamed, it just doesn't wash, no matter how many times you repeat it. Reintroducing elements like kick into JA's gameplay would cause many many splits in the new and burgeoning JA community. It's not worth it, no matter how necessary it may seem to you for your NG CTF gametype.

 

And man, close them bold tags. It's hard to read an entirely bold message.

 

This isn't a debate about which movies are fun to watch and which aren't. It's not relative, it's not subjective. It's a position based on evidence, a HOST of games back into the deeps of time that have all been knobbled by premature patching, and it's based on first-hand experience of what happened to JO.

 

You can disagree with it all you like, but unless you produce some CONCRETE examples to support your disagreement... you're just being self-indulgently illogical.

 

Ohh right. "I insulted you, but it was your fault because you said something I disagreed with." Yeah, that's not trolling at all.

 

What. Because we disagreed with you? Uh-huh.

 

No gameplay patching until more weeks have passed, Raven! Now would be premature!

 

I treat you exactly the same way you've treated everyone else. If I've done something, you've done it first. I think the only reason Kurgan has allowed me to continue is because he's allowed you to continue.

 

Understand this AL: I've done NOTHING you haven't tried to do yourself. I am abiding by the Golden Rule. I am not in anyway or from any logical viewpoint "in the carnage" of anything except perhaps the desiccated remains of your opening arguments.

 

I will emphasize again, AL: you speak only for yourself. Only for yourself. You continually try to inflict the limits you impose upon yourself onto other members of the forum. Unfortunately, unless you happen to be my boss (and you aren't), you do not have the right to place limits on me. Or anyone else here.

 

Herein lies the fundamental difference in our debate skills: I am canny enough to only speak for myself EXCEPT when it's abundantly clear this is what everyone who shares a parallel point of view in this debate wants. For instance, the g_kick cvar.

 

You, on the other hand, ramble on and on about the support of people with disjointedly parallel views. In effect, anyone who's supported anything resembling a perpendicular argument to my own. You're also a bit lacking in your understanding of the Theory of Relativity (which is fine, as nobody's exactly certain of its entirety of ramifications anyway...I was just working from the more philosophical interpretation).

 

As has been mentioned, I'm throwing realistic rocks, and you're throwing relativistic rocks. Which is ironic, since we support the opposite theories of existence. But hey, whatever, I'm willing to admit that life is a paradox.

 

I haven't "failed to grasp" anything thus far, I simply refuse to accept illogical applications of logic. Just because you have the logic it doesn't mean you possess the requisite reasoning ability to apply it. This has been the case so far with your arguments. "Logical" as you may claim them to be, they are only logical when not reasonably construed.

 

Reasonably, as a consumer, I can expect quick action to amend oversights on the part of the provider. You refute my analogies only because you can see they do not support your stance, even if they are reasonably constructed of the same logic you use yourself. That's the depth and breadth of it, AL. I've approached this FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, and I've used your definition of logic to present a reasonably construed situation that DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR STANCE. Perhaps because they evince your logic's fallibility. I remain uncertain of your ulterior motivations because, as you so astutely continue to point out, I do not know you. Yet you seem certain enough of your knowledge of me to make sweeping accusations of my character and countenance.

 

I say again sir, that I may not be able to say much about you, but I can say one thing with absolute certainty: you are a hypocrite.

 

It has nothing to do with my comprehension of your presentation, it has nothing to do with any predetermination of the validity of your perspective on my part, it has nothing to do with the support of my fellows and friends (and they'll tell you themselves that I will argue with them as frequently as I agree with them). It is, from my perspective, the most logical direction of pursuit. The best answer, as it were, if this were a multiple guess examination being administered to Raven.

 

The contraindictions you continue to rely on to pull the weight of your argument are countered by your own claim that those who cannot understand the past are doomed to repeat its failures. If nothing else, AL, Raven is almost certainly acutely aware of the failures in 1.03. I doubt they'll make the same mistake again, but it doesn't mean we are unlikely to see a patch within this month. In fact, it's a fairly good bet that we will. And it will, by its very nature (and this is entirely irrefutable I'm afraid), affect gameplay. So the addition of a few cvars to please an ALREADY FRACTURED community (as opposed to a inspiring the fractualization of a community) isn't an unreasonable demand by any stretch of imagination.

 

Your definition of a bug, while mostly correct, bypasses the most important facet of their nature: that they are a failure in gameplay.

[Rumor]

Originally posted by Gabrobot

Hey, there's no need for me to do it...you're doing fine by yourself!

 

Seriously, though...how about an intelligent response.

 

give us an intelligent post and we'll give you intelligent responses. until then we will respond on the same level as your posts.

[Spider AL]

mikeyjuan:

 

Al is obviouslly not the hardcore-comptetive gamer that me, nor the other in the group of *whiners* are.

Oh I'm fairly hardcore. Started playing JK in 1998, three tournament championships won. FF sabres. Many major players defeated. Bought and started playing JO on day of release, two FF sabres tournaments won, 97% victory ratio in FF guns, over 36,000 kills logged, and over three-thousand individual NF duels fought.

 

So yeah, pretty hardcore. So you're wrong. And since you only want to listen to arguments made by "hardcore" people, please go and re-read mine.

 

Ardent:

 

Nice one, quoting my entire post in big, bold text. It's obvious that you're most experienced in forum debates and forum etiquette. How else could you flout it so often and with such accuracy?

 

I treat you exactly the same way you've treated everyone else. If I've done something, you've done it first.

Like everything else you come out with, this is a load of unsubstantiated nonsense. You're the only truly confirmed troll among us currently. You might want to try proving everything you say in future, that's what wins debates. You're not running for Governer of California at the moment.

 

Or maybe you are... We shall see.

 

I will emphasize again, AL: you speak only for yourself.

Myself... and all the people who hold the same viewpoint as I do. Perhaps you have them all on ignore. Most odd.

 

you do not have the right to place limits on me. Or anyone else here.

Oh, I think you'll find that when you want to affect every other player in the world with your premature and outlandish demands, I have the right to do everything within my power to stop your quest for utter carnage. So I do. Rah!

 

Herein lies the fundamental difference in our debate skills: I am canny enough to only speak for myself EXCEPT when it's abundantly clear this is what everyone who shares a parallel point of view in this debate wants. For instance, the g_kick cvar.

Oh yes, because EVERYONE wants the kick ported into JA, right guys? You're canny indeed.

 

I haven't "failed to grasp" anything thus far, I simply refuse to accept illogical applications of logic. Just because you have the logic it doesn't mean you possess the requisite reasoning ability to apply it. This has been the case so far with your arguments. "Logical" as you may claim them to be, they are only logical when not reasonably construed.

You subsist entirely on meaningless drivel, don't you. "illogical applications of logic"? Mmkay. Well, at least one thing is certain, you've failed to grasp the concept of "civility" so far. And cease the pseudointellectualism. It doesn't suit you.

 

As has been mentioned, I'm throwing realistic rocks, and you're throwing relativistic rocks.

The only person who claims that this debate is entirely relative sits in the opposite camp to myself, not a million miles from you, aamof.

 

You're also a bit lacking in your understanding of the Theory of Relativity (which is fine, as nobody's exactly certain of its entirety of ramifications anyway...I was just working from the more philosophical interpretation).

Ahahaha, because you mauled it, you justify your mauling with: "Well I was philosophising. About a physical theory. J00 CANT DEBATE FILOSOFY!!!1" Please spare me, I'm cracking up.

 

I say again sir, that I may not be able to say much about you, but I can say one thing with absolute certainty: you are a hypocrite.

You can say it as much as you want, you have never produced a shred of explanation or backup for this, your most outlandish and ludicrous nonsense so far. I've produced various points that prove my case that you're a troll, however.

 

The contraindictions you continue to rely on to pull the weight of your argument are countered by your own claim that those who cannot understand the past are doomed to repeat its failures. If nothing else, AL, Raven is almost certainly acutely aware of the failures in 1.03. I doubt they'll make the same mistake again, but it doesn't mean we are unlikely to see a patch within this month. In fact, it's a fairly good bet that we will. And it will, by its very nature (and this is entirely irrefutable I'm afraid), affect gameplay. So the addition of a few cvars to please an ALREADY FRACTURED community (as opposed to a inspiring the fractualization of a community) isn't an unreasonable demand by any stretch of imagination.

What a mercenary and selfish argument. "Raven must fix bugs, so we'll make them put in this premature gameplay alteration too while they're at it wahahahahr!!!11" And you know nothing about the JA community, merely your old pals in the JO community. Because the JA community doesn't exist yet. A community must evolve, and rise from the ashes of previous communities, and take on new members. And achieve its own distinctive flavour. You're pining for a world that's dead and gone. Let it rest.

 

Of course bugs affect gameplay in the same way that not being able to load the game affects gameplay... it engenders a LACK of it. Otherwise, they're completely separate, and you can dance around this as much as you like, but what you want to do is reintroduce kick. That is NOT a bugfix, and that blows your attempt at an argument RIGHT out of the water.

 

It has nothing to do with my comprehension of your presentation, it has nothing to do with any predetermination of the validity of your perspective on my part, it has nothing to do with the support of my fellows and friends (and they'll tell you themselves that I will argue with them as frequently as I agree with them).

Yes, I envy them so.

 

What "it" has to do with is that you consider yourself "teh leet politic debat0r" and you've come here with the age-old trolling strategy "shout I WIN at them enough and they might believe it after a while". Doesn't cut that way Ardy. Not since the schoolyard. Good luck to you, and have a long and prosperous life.

 

Oh, and you're still here.... I thought you said you were leaving? Just another inaccuracy I suppose. Bai.

 

Rumor:

 

give us an intelligent post and we'll give you intelligent responses. until then we will respond on the same level as your posts.

Sigh. Those who do not seek the truth will, in truth, never find it.

[lllKyNeSlll]

The single best evidence for any view are demos. If you guys could produce demos of jk2 showing how you can still kill drain people 1v1 and show how its almost impossible in jk3 it will prove your point better.

 

Because spideral isn't stupid. I've known him since jk1 and he's one of the strongest players who adapt and change according to the game.

 

Though however, there are flawed aspects of this game that will cause me to play only guns.

[g//anarki]

Ok to summarize Al's post for you guys who don't really feel like reading 200 lines of text:

 

"Everything you say is not true but what I say is because I said so."

 

You don't even play saber only, Al so what business do you have here other than self-ritiously protecting JA from the oh-so-evil "premature patch"? We got your point that you don't like these "premature" patches so what else are you trying to prove?

 

You have no evidence that the evil premature patch will do anything bad to JA besides previous experiences in JK2. I think Raven has learned from the mistake of 1.03 and won't make such big changes. We, however have shown in many ways that the game needs patching. Please post some valid evidence that this evil "premature" patch will do something bad. Until then, what you say is not necessarily true.

 

As long as these things stay this way in the game, people will complain. We've proved the "the game's new, try to adapt" theory wrong so please don't use that or any other variations of it.

[FK | unnamed]

how about they just release the ****ing tools so the mod makers can get the job done?

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Spider AL

[Nice one, quoting my entire post in big, bold text. It's obvious that you're most experienced in forum debates and forum etiquette. How else could you flout it so often and with such accuracy?

 

I almost stopped reading here, because if this is your opener, it's pretty clear you've got nothing worthwhile to say. As far as my "forum ettiquette" goes, I just hit quote and responded. You had nothing worth responding to point-for-point in there. So, if anything is at fault, it is the bb code.

 

Like everything else you come out with, this is a load of unsubstantiated nonsense. You're the only truly confirmed troll among us currently. You might want to try proving everything you say in future, that's what wins debates. You're not running for Governer of California at the moment.

 

Hardly. But that was a nice try. Way to flame Americans, by the way.

 

Myself... and all the people who hold the same viewpoint as I do. Perhaps you have them all on ignore. Most odd.

 

No, you don't. They have voices of their own. If they want to be heard, they have to speak up. You represent only yourself.

 

Oh, I think you'll find that when you want to affect every other player in the world with your premature and outlandish demands, I have the right to do everything within my power to stop your quest for utter carnage. So I do. Rah!

 

Beyond your fairly good grasp of English (I say fairly good because it's questionable whether you comprehended my post at this point), you really have nothing to say in rebuttal to my points.

 

Oh yes, because EVERYONE wants the kick ported into JA, right guys? You're canny indeed.

 

How uncanny your response, Spider AL. How uncanny. They're certainly here and they've certainly spoken out, and as far as I can tell, I'm only counting the people whose stance is PARALLEL to mine...although now I wonder if know what that means. It means, Spider AL, that mikeyjuan, traj, rumor, plazma, myth, uj, jello (and a fair number of other people who haven't spoken up in a while because it's clear you're not interested in points, but in trying to flame us) want cvars for kick and have said the exact same thing at least once.

 

You subsist entirely on meaningless drivel, don't you. "illogical applications of logic"? Mmkay. Well, at least one thing is certain, you've failed to grasp the concept of "civility" so far. And cease the pseudointellectualism. It doesn't suit you.

 

Et tu AL? Pseudo-intellectualism (which is, by the way, a compound word and thus should be hyphenated) is a fairly standard troll dismissal of an argument beyond their comprehension.

 

The only person who claims that this debate is entirely relative sits in the opposite camp to myself, not a million miles from you, aamof.

 

I do indeed claim this debate is entirely relativistic. Notice the inclusion of the indicator "irony?" Maybe I shouldn't have used an 9th grade vocabulary word. I suppose it comes in below your radar.

 

Ahahaha, because you mauled it, you justify your mauling with: "Well I was philosophising. About a physical theory. J00 CANT DEBATE FILOSOFY!!!1" Please spare me, I'm cracking up.

 

When there is no correct answer, there is also no wrong answer. There are only answers that raise more questions. This one raises the following question: if I can be civil, why can't you?

 

You can say it as much as you want, you have never produced a shred of explanation or backup for this, your most outlandish and ludicrous nonsense so far. I've produced various points that prove my case that you're a troll, however.

 

Whatever, it's clear you don't own a mirror.

 

What a mercenary and selfish argument. "Raven must fix bugs, so we'll make them put in this premature gameplay alteration too while they're at it wahahahahr!!!11" And you know nothing about the JA community, merely your old pals in the JO community. Because the JA community doesn't exist yet. A community must evolve, and rise from the ashes of previous communities, and take on new members. And achieve its own distinctive flavour. You're pining for a world that's dead and gone. Let it rest.

 

I am a mercenary, Spider AL. I help people for money. That's the nature of all of my jobs. Of course, I don't work desk jobs (not in the sense a corporate drone does anyway), so I can't really speak to their nature, but the basic theory is the same. Work for someone, they pay you. The working man is a mercenary these days, AL.

 

And of course it's selfish. In the same way the requests everyone else makes of Raven is selfish. Your request is selfish as well.

 

As far as the JA community...sorry, but any time you have a group of people arrived, as a group, you have a clique. One clique spawns other cliques. Cliques = fractured community. Social theory: not a waste of credits.

 

Of course bugs affect gameplay in the same way that not being able to load the game affects gameplay... it engenders a LACK of it. Otherwise, they're completely separate, and you can dance around this as much as you like, but what you want to do is reintroduce kick. That is NOT a bugfix, and that blows your attempt at an argument RIGHT out of the water.

 

No, they are intrinsically bound. I'm not sure why that's so unclear to you. Of COURSE I want to reintroduce kick. I've never concealed my true motive. Nor have I really made any effort to conceal my ulterior motives, for that matter. More than can be said for you.

 

What "it" has to do with is that you consider yourself "teh leet politic debat0r" and you've come here with the age-old trolling strategy "shout I WIN at them enough and they might believe it after a while". Doesn't cut that way Ardy. Not since the schoolyard. Good luck to you, and have a long and prosperous life.

 

I'm sorry, but the post I'm responding to right now has done nothing. It hasn't even effectively stalled, as it supplied no points remotely related to the subject matter for me to try to counter. Not even a strong tangent.

 

Oh, and you're still here.... I thought you said you were leaving? Just another inaccuracy I suppose. Bai.

 

I don't recall saying I was leaving. In fact, I'm not sure I'm the one that should be leaving.

 

Sigh. Those who do not seek the truth will, in truth, never find it.

 

I do not seek and do not intend to find a calmer ocean or a sun that will never rise.

 

EDIT: couple of typos, I apologise

[FK | unnamed]

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=113064

 

we are still winning.

 

 

/edit

 

we are beating the **** out of you guys.

 

 

 

 

 

btw release the SDK please.

 

[mikeyjuan]

Its not necessarily that we want 'kick' back we just want something. Something that can be more indepth and complex, as well as enough power to compensate for the forceheal/energize support that players will be recieving. Something usefull. They took everything that was useful and gave us kata's which are only useful in flocks of newbies.

 

And as for your past experiance that is nice- but hearing that does surprise me that you dont find the lack of challenge/depth/combos/advancement in the game. Maybe you already do, but your just debating the patch not be released to fix that stuff yet?

 

If that is what you think great, but its unlikley since they have already said they are working on the patch. I have seen no other game wait, halo being the recent in only a week. So your little blanter can end patch is being made. And there is no reason to go around nit picking posts like you do if your not going to add anything to the discussion, which you did not. Everything you said could have been summed up by saying "i think your wrong."

[archer9234]

im my opinion, spider al will just reply ever one posting about anything and try to make his point come out over and over. using his old "qouting" junk over and over. i advise everyone dont even bother replaying him just block him, ignor him thats it problem solved with him saying his line "Premeture patching".

[Gabrobot]

Originally posted by Rumor

give us an intelligent post and we'll give you intelligent responses. until then we will respond on the same level as your posts.

 

Ok, so mikeyjuan made a statement about the saber system being flawed, and I said that maybe it was something else (like lag), and I said:

Are you completely sure the saber is hitting the right areas? (I don't mean where you see your saber hitting, but where the server actually registers it hitting...) I'll have to do some bot tests, and see what happens... (lag free, and the server is here)

 

And do I get intelligent responses? No. I get **** like this:

Originally posted by FK | unnamed

Hey sin did you press tab to see what your ping was?

 

Man I totally forgot to do that.

 

 

I mean I usually only play on servers where I ping around 20-30 and I use cg_lagometer 1 to monitor any packet loss, but maybe we are noobs and are really playing with 700 pings and just unaware of it.

 

and like when I play those bots offline and my saber passes right through it's torso but I register no hit, maybe after like one and a half years of sabering, I still have not learned how to swing properly when I'm trying to register hits on player models.

 

Damn, I got sooo lucky in all those matches I won over the last year.

 

 

 

Man, I'm glad you guys told us newbie’s about this stuff, any other tips for us guys who have never used the Internet before?

 

Oh yeah, maybe I got one of those virus things I heard about on television.

If I had a virus my computer won’t work right so that must have been the problem all along.

 

Rofl, silly me, I feel so embarrassed.

 

Originally posted by Rumor

uj: stfu u lamer. you have no honor! i bet you only use red stance!

 

Those, and the other comments, served absolutely no purpose in trying to solve anything...in fact it's what's called acting like an *******.

 

Now, mikeyjuan:

Anyway, have you tryed it my way yet? Because unless you plan on playing bots your whole life of JK:A, you will too run into a problem when there is any latency between you and your opponnents. Just because it works on the bots which I have no desire to test, because I dont play bots, doesn't mean it will work in the multiplayer when there IS a ping between two players. You will find the incosistancies.

 

So you're trying to prove that the saber system is flawed by showing hits are innacurrate when there's lag? What a stupid idea. If the problem is lag (which it seems it is), then there is nothing Raven can do to change it...it's physically impossible for Raven to get that data to move faster by making a change to the saber system...the speed of the data has to do with your connection and with your ISP, not JA.

 

Now, I would like to make it very clear that I fully support Spider AL. We ask that Raven only make bug fixes in JA's first patch, so that the gameplay can be fully explored further.

Personally, any group of people who claims to have completely figured out all a games strategies in ten minutes is not a reputable source for reporting flaws, and I hope Raven sees this as well. In a game as complicated as JA, it's physically impossible to learn every strategy about the game in just over two weeks. You are free to point certain things out, but you cannot claim there are gameplay bugs yet.

 

Also, I don't expect to change any of your minds about JA... (in fact I would rather you left, as I really don't see how your attitude is at all helpful) The posts Spider AL and I have been making are for Raven's benifit. You started these threads with the intention of making Raven change JA's gameplay as soon as posible. Seeing how reckless and damaging such changes would be, we have been posting why Raven should wait for a while so that players who are willing to learn JA's new strategies can do so, and then they can point out things that are problems in JA's gameplay. Players like yourself can go struting around claiming to be JA gods all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you aren't willing to learn to play a new differently then a previous game.

 

Really all I've seen are:

 

1. Points you state are facts...just believe me. Yeah, great I'll just believe you because you go around acting like children.

 

2. Raven bashing. (i.e. The saber system sucks! The new moves suck because I keep getting killed by them when I use my JKII strategies! This game is a JKII mod, the code is 80% the same! Raven stole everything from JKII mods!) This is downright troll behavior...try making contructive comments.

 

3. Bashing or ignoring people who disagreeing with them. ([EXAMPLE][WHINEVOICE]I don't like what you're saying so I'm going to turn my back on you and ignore you, so there! Hhhmmmff![/WHINEVOICE][/EXAMPLE])

 

And that poll shows you ahead because you have multiple accounts and are voting with each one of them...wow, you are l33t!

[Prime]

Originally posted by lllKyNeSlll

The single best evidence for any view are demos. If you guys could produce demos of jk2 showing how you can still kill drain people 1v1 and show how its almost impossible in jk3 it will prove your point better.

This is an excellent idea. It will give players such as me who are pretty happy with the current gameplay an idea of what the issues are. I think many of us haven't come across every issues for whatever reason. A few demos showing what people are talking about at least gives everyone a common frame of reference. Not only that, but it may help to narrow down what the problems really are and maybe, just maybe, may lead to a more unified voice from the community at large.

[mikeyjuan]

I might not have worded my post as well as I should have, or possibly you rushed through it just assuming you knew what I was saying. But what ever it may be, you dont get it.

 

Like i said, there is flaws when you test the saber system the way that I said to test it. From the very first post I said how to do it*which you continue to comment about how I'm wrong, yet you have yet to try it*. Now I dont know why its a problem, bad saber mechanics?, bad blocking mechanics?, latency issues?, I have not the slightest idea.

 

So you're trying to prove that the saber system is flawed by showing hits are innacurrate when there's lag? What a stupid idea. If the problem is lag (which it seems it is), then there is nothing Raven can do to change it...it's physically impossible for Raven to get that data to move faster by making a change to the saber system...the speed of the data has to do with your connection and with your ISP, not JA.

 

A ping of 80-100 is generally acceptable! When I said due to 'lag' I ment due to the ping of 80-100. I'm not talking about excessive 'lag' where your a few seconds behind and skipping around, like you seem to be talking about. There should be no reason that a ping of 80-100 causes the saber system to become flawed. And if it does, then that is something else to be fixed.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Gabrobot

So you're trying to prove that the saber system is flawed by showing hits are innacurrate when there's lag? What a stupid idea. If the problem is lag (which it seems it is), then there is nothing Raven can do to change it...it's physically impossible for Raven to get that data to move faster by making a change to the saber system...the speed of the data has to do with your connection and with your ISP, not JA.

 

The single biggest flaw with ghoul2 is that it appears to be greatly affected by the end-client's fps. I've been toying with my fps recently and I find it hard to believe it's coincidental that I do better in games where my fps is higher, when most everything else is the same.

 

I cannot mathematically quantify this, it's just speculation, but if it's the truth, then it is a damning truth. If half of what makes this game something besides just-another-Quake-mod is severely affected by frame rates, then it becomes difficult to justify trying to play if your cannot tweak your FPS over some arbitrary minimum.

 

Now, I would like to make it very clear that I fully support Spider AL. We ask that Raven only make bug fixes in JA's first patch, so that the gameplay can be fully explored further.

Personally, any group of people who claims to have completely figured out all a games strategies in ten minutes is not a reputable source for reporting flaws, and I hope Raven sees this as well. In a game as complicated as JA, it's physically impossible to learn every strategy about the game in just over two weeks. You are free to point certain things out, but you cannot claim there are gameplay bugs yet.

 

That's fine, I never denied you were out there. I just pointed out that everyone has a voice (no offense to any mutes in the audience) and if they want to be heard they ought to speak up. You've done so, and it is duly noted.

 

As far as figuring out all of the strategies, that's a bit different from deciphering all of the game's mechanics. But I think it's fair to say that thus far we've figured out all of the strategies that have no equivalent in JO. There weren't a whole lot, if the first two and a half weeks are a fair indication, and frankly, it will be. The chances better strategies will be devised is present, but slim. Every day that passes the chances drop tangibly.

 

Also, I don't expect to change any of your minds about JA... (in fact I would rather you left, as I really don't see how your attitude is at all helpful) The posts Spider AL and I have been making are for Raven's benifit. You started these threads with the intention of making Raven change JA's gameplay as soon as posible. Seeing how reckless and damaging such changes would be, we have been posting why Raven should wait for a while so that players who are willing to learn JA's new strategies can do so, and then they can point out things that are problems in JA's gameplay. Players like yourself can go struting around claiming to be JA gods all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you aren't willing to learn to play a new differently then a previous game.

 

Then I hope AL has written at least one e-mail and sent it off their way, because I'vewritten at least one (that's all you're gonna get, but my loquacity doesn't vary much from place to place). A few others have also sent letters their way, and if they would stop being such thankless hanks, a few more would. >:|

 

1. Points you state are facts...just believe me. Yeah, great I'll just believe you because you go around acting like children.

 

There's a difference between a stated fact and an inalienable fact. I think I've been careful about my stance regarding both.

 

2. Raven bashing. (i.e. The saber system sucks! The new moves suck because I keep getting killed by them when I use my JKII strategies! This game is a JKII mod, the code is 80% the same! Raven stole everything from JKII mods!) This is downright troll behavior...try making contructive comments.

 

I haven't bashed Raven in any larger way than perhaps my negative reception of the game. Some people have a bigger beef with them, but that's because they're holding onto the past a bit too tight. Also, no offense to you is intended, but they're certainly not alone.

 

3. Bashing or ignoring people who disagreeing with them. ([EXAMPLE][WHINEVOICE]I don't like what you're saying so I'm going to turn my back on you and ignore you, so there! Hhhmmmff![/WHINEVOICE][/EXAMPLE])

 

I've been attempting to keep it civil for the last few days. Prior to that, I was merely responding in kind. This is, if anything, a point against you as well, as that's exactly what you've just done.

 

And that poll shows you ahead because you have multiple accounts and are voting with each one of them...wow, you are l33t!

 

I voted only once. I'm sure a quick check of voting IPs by Kurgan could reassure that. I have no reason to want to skew a poll that will, in all likelihood, be ignored by Raven.

[Rad Blackrose]

Originally posted by Prime

This is an excellent idea. It will give players such as me who are pretty happy with the current gameplay an idea of what the issues are. I think many of us haven't come across every issues for whatever reason. A few demos showing what people are talking about at least gives everyone a common frame of reference. Not only that, but it may help to narrow down what the problems really are and maybe, just maybe, may lead to a more unified voice from the community at large.

 

For christ sakes, unnamed has been here the whole time telling you to get a team together (8 people I believe), then take on his team of 5 and watch the carnage.

 

You can see it with YOUR OWN EYES!

 

The fact that people like Gabrobot, you, and Al have avoided it and now suddenly say "Show us the demos" is pure hypocracy.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

For christ sakes, unnamed has been here the whole time telling you to get a team together (8 people I believe), then take on his team of 5 and watch the carnage.

 

You can see it with YOUR OWN EYES!

 

The fact that people like Gabrobot, you, and Al have avoided it and now suddenly say "Show us the demos" is pure hypocracy.

gg rad...gg

[Jello123]

Originally posted by Gabrobot

And that poll shows you ahead because you have multiple accounts and are voting with each one of them...wow, you are l33t!

 

ROFL

 

the only reason there were so many votes was because we TOLD people to come vote

 

though some of them still havent voted..grrr

[Gabrobot]

To Ardent:

 

Please don't misunderstand the directed audience of some of the points I made...I know they don't all apply to you. I have seen people making comments such as the ones I pointed out, and I know they know who I mean. I really don't care so much, who said it, I would just like to see it stop.

 

Mikeyjuan:

In regard to the Ghoul 2...there isn't anything wrong with it. There may be a problem with the fact that lag becomes more noticeable because of that, but if you do a bot match where there is no lag, you can clearly see there isn't a problem with the actual Ghoul 2. Now, I understand you probably have no clue how these things work behind the scenes, but when you start flinging around things like "the saber system is flawed", then it's not really addressing the real issue. Now if you had approached the problem with the stance of trying to figure out the nature of the problem, such as thinking "well, if the damage seems to be random, why is that?" Now, if you were trying to problem solve instead of Raven bash, then you should come up with "the game is determining that certain swings do different damage even if the swing is the same." Now, the only thing left to figure out is that the only other thing that enters into the equation is the body which gets hit by the saber...like where it gets hit. So if there is positional hitting, perhaps the reason for the seeming randomness is because of lag...to determine if this is the case, do the bot test. Once you know that the actual saber system works, it should be fairly obvious that the problem lies in the data exchange rate...a ping of 80-100 is easily enough to cause confusion. It's still enough to cause a noticeable difference, since you noticed, even though hit detection works when there is no lag.

 

Sorry if I overestimated your grasp on these concepts before...I forget that some people default to blaming Raven's design of the game instead of seeing if it's because of technical reasons. Although I would think you'd figure out that the internet is not instantaneous... (Unless you know nothing about simple physics, in which case I suppose you wouldn't realize that there are physical things moving back and forth between your computer and others...)

 

Oh, and it seems the number one problem people have with more accurate collision detection is that people want to blame the game and not realize that they, themselves, have to be more accurate in order for them to hit things...it's just that because of the server-client method of net code that the Quake 3 engine uses, it becomes more obvious. Hopefully Doom 3's peer-to-peer method clears these problems up a bit, but until then, people just have to do the best they can...

 

And Rad Blackrose (and Ardent again, since you seem to agree):

This debate is not about how good you are...it is that no matter how good you are, you'd have to have an IQ higher than Einstein to have found all the major strategies in JA, already. We are only saying that recklessly rushing around, like a chicken without a head, demanding gameplay changes in a patch is completely illogical. The game has hardly been out...! Raven hasn't even fixed the technical bugs in JA yet, so how can you be sure that some of the things you're having trouble with isn't due to that? Who knows? JA is not a simple FPS game...it has many different elements, and it's dynamics have changed (and been added to) enough from JKII so that it does not play the same...if it did, you wouldn't have stalemates because you can't rely on the all powerful kick...maybe there is another counter, maybe there isn't...it's too early to tell. And even if kick is needed when you play CTF without guns, you must remember that there only are a few players (relatively few...100 players out of all the people who bought JA, and will buy JA, is a somewhat small percentage) playing a gametype with half the gameplay elements taken out (guns), and changing gameplay that was designed around a fuller playing experience would cause many problems for the majority of the players.

 

To Ardent and [div3rse.jello]:

I was referring to the fact that FK | unnamed has multiple accounts (and has admitted it).

 

You make a good point, however, in that the only reason there are so many votes is because you told people to come vote. The number of votes really probably is a more or less correct representation of the number of people who want kick added in a patch (84 people as of now), where as the people who are voting against adding kick are only the people aware of this debate and who want to speak out against forcing Raven to make rushed gameplay changes. Most of the JA players, who don’t have a problem with JA in its current state, are off enjoying it and aren’t aware of the poll.

[Rad Blackrose]

Originally posted by Ardent

gg rad...gg

 

Good game indeed.

 

Originally posted by [div3rse.jello]

ROFL

 

the only reason there were so many votes was because we TOLD people to come vote

 

though some of them still havent voted..grrr

 

This also proves that not even a small size of the competitive community comes here. They only come out for things such as the poll mentioned above, because it concerns them.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Gabrobot

In regard to the Ghoul 2...there isn't anything wrong with it. There may be a problem with the fact that lag becomes more noticeable because of that, but if you do a bot match where there is no lag, you can clearly see there isn't a problem with the actual Ghoul 2.

 

In a controlled environment, with all players operating under the exact same conditions, there is indeed no obvious problem with ghoul2. Operating in a controlled enviroment, however, is about as far to the opposite of playing multiplayer over the internet as things get.

 

Now, I understand you probably have no clue how these things work behind the scenes, but when you start flinging around things like "the saber system is flawed", then it's not really addressing the real issue. Now if you had approached the problem with the stance of trying to figure out the nature of the problem, such as thinking "well, if the damage seems to be random, why is that?"

 

If I had no clue about what goes on backstage at a Broadway production, I could still tell you if the show stunk if I went to it.

 

Now, if you were trying to problem solve instead of Raven bash, then you should come up with "the game is determining that certain swings do different damage even if the swing is the same." Now, the only thing left to figure out is that the only other thing that enters into the equation is the body which gets hit by the saber...like where it gets hit. So if there is positional hitting, perhaps the reason for the seeming randomness is because of lag...to determine if this is the case, do the bot test. Once you know that the actual saber system works, it should be fairly obvious that the problem lies in the data exchange rate...a ping of 80-100 is easily enough to cause confusion. It's still enough to cause a noticeable difference, since you noticed, even though hit detection works when there is no lag.

 

Ghoul2 pretty clearly doesn't function with client-side hit resolution. This means a couple of things: persons with better pings are at an advantage because their data flow rate is less likely to be interrupted and that persons running with higher fps are also at an advantage, because five frames can make the difference between a hit and a miss.

 

Sorry if I overestimated your grasp on these concepts before...I forget that some people default to blaming Raven's design of the game instead of seeing if it's because of technical reasons. Although I would think you'd figure out that the internet is not instantaneous... (Unless you know nothing about simple physics, in which case I suppose you wouldn't realize that there are physical things moving back and forth between your computer and others...)

 

The game is more or less okay on a LAN...although I ping better to certain servers than I do over a 10mb/s hub...on my 100mb/s hub, however, all pings are acceptable. But a 100mb/s hub isn't a small investment, and most LANs probably don't support more than one, if they support any at all.

 

Oh, and it seems the number one problem people have with more accurate collision detection is that people want to blame the game and not realize that they, themselves, have to be more accurate in order for them to hit things...it's just that because of the server-client method of net code that the Quake 3 engine uses, it becomes more obvious. Hopefully Doom 3's peer-to-peer method clears these problems up a bit, but until then, people just have to do the best they can...

 

That's pretty silly. "Do the best they can." How many internet matches have you participated in since you got the game? Of how many different gametypes? I've played a multitude of matches in FFA, TFFA, CTF, Power Duel, Duel and Siege. I have a broader base of experience with which to speak about the issues I have with ghoul2. It would be slightly more acceptable if these problems were relegated to a single gametype...but the fact that they persist through all types of gameplay is somewhat discouraging. It makes the single player game more exciting than the multiplayer game, which isn't exactly what Quake is about (and by association, JA).

 

And Rad Blackrose (and Ardent again, since you seem to agree): This debate is not about how good you are...it is that no matter how good you are, you'd have to have an IQ higher than Einstein to have found all the major strategies in JA, already.

 

Well, the challenge is sitting there open for the taking. You're welcome to come prove to us that you know a major strategy we don't. As far as IQ goes, you're one of the first people I've encountered on a forum to be aware that it is a representation of your ability to learn rather than your intelligence itself. Unfortunately, on every IQ test I've taken (including MENSA's) I test well into the genius range. [sarcasm]It's probably only because I test well, though.[/sarcasm]

 

We are only saying that recklessly rushing around, like a chicken without a head, demanding gameplay changes in a patch is completely illogical. The game has hardly been out...! Raven hasn't even fixed the technical bugs in JA yet, so how can you be sure that some of the things you're having trouble with isn't due to that? Who knows?

 

Raven would. But adding a cvar cannot hurt you unless you let it. By association, it cannot help you unless you let it. It's not like we're asking them to completely remove guns from the game...but we could. And we'd be just as entitled to as you'd be to ask them to wait before patching. Nobody is more entitled here than anyone else. The difference is that we've got a greater range and base of experience to base our points on.

 

JA is not a simple FPS game...it has many different elements, and it's dynamics have changed (and been added to) enough from JKII so that it does not play the same...if it did, you wouldn't have stalemates because you can't rely on the all powerful kick...maybe there is another counter, maybe there isn't...it's too early to tell. And even if kick is needed when you play CTF without guns, you must remember that there only are a few players (relatively few...100 players out of all the people who bought JA, and will buy JA, is a somewhat small percentage) playing a gametype with half the gameplay elements taken out (guns), and changing gameplay that was designed around a fuller playing experience would cause many problems for the majority of the players.

 

Putting guns on more or less removes lightsabers from the game, particularly as they don't block worth a pile of horsedung right now.

 

I was referring to the fact that FK | unnamed has multiple accounts (and has admitted it).

 

I suggest you find out why that is, Gabrobot. No, actually, I'll ask Kurgan to tell you, since he can best explain it.

 

You make a good point, however, in that the only reason there are so many votes is because you told people to come vote. The number of votes really probably is a more or less correct representation of the number of people who want kick added in a patch (84 people as of now), where as the people who are voting against adding kick are only the people aware of this debate and who want to speak out against forcing Raven to make rushed gameplay changes. Most of the JA players, who don’t have a problem with JA in its current state, are off enjoying it and aren’t aware of the poll.

 

Oh sure, go ahead and dismiss the results of the poll. Just because you can't find anyone who shares your "kicks will destroy the game!" viewpoint to ask to come here and vote. That's lame. Don't make excuses, show proof to us. We're not entirely unreasonable people.

 

It's exactly like political campaigning: if you want people to vote for your candidate, you make sure they've heard all about the voting forum, the issues and you give them incentive to get off their butts and vote. That's what we've done.

[Rad Blackrose]

And Rad Blackrose (and Ardent again, since you seem to agree): This debate is not about how good you are...it is that no matter how good you are, you'd have to have an IQ higher than Einstein to have found all the major strategies in JA, already.

 

 

Let me get off the floor from laughing so hard, then perhaps I will respond to you.

 

The fact that we as a community are going out of our way to show how much of a pile of **** some things are in JA, then are giving you the opportunity to see it first hand, is considered a demonstration of "how good we are?" You must have some serious misconceptions when it comes to us... Wait, no, you do.

 

I'll restate earlier points, for the sake of your inability to read:

 

1.) Competitive players spend more time in game learning how things tick, thus knowing more bugs and exploits then the "casual gamer" you so profess bull**** about.

 

-How do you think we know about the lightning, grip, homing rocket, and kick bugs? The CTF crowd have already found a number of map exploits, as well.

 

2.) Hit detection is based heavily off ping/latency, not accuracy. You may swing as though you have 0 ping, but in reality you swing *a few seconds later.

 

-Try pitting a 50 ping vs a 150 ping. Advantage? The 50 ping, because the time between his swings and his final connections are shorter.

 

3.) All this time, people like Al happen to be going off on how this is not Jedi Knight II, yet in the meantime ask for no premature patches.

 

-Reverse logic card! Woohoo!

 

Patches are inevitable, things are going to get nerfed to oblivion (again) despite the fuss you people put up. And the fact that this isn't JKII means those patches are going to be even more nerf-friendly. I guarantee at the first patch, you can kiss the butterfly kick and yawspeed goodbye.

[Luc Solar]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

:I guarantee at the first patch, you can kiss the butterfly kick and yawspeed goodbye.

 

Ok, first of all: I would not miss yawspeed if it was taken out.

 

Second of all: you can kick-kill while doing teh l337 butterflyez? This is the kick-bug?

 

...wouldn't it be something if Raven patched this game by giving single saber users JO style kicks and the old DFA back, removed the LOS restriction in grip and set saberdamagescale at 2 without nerfing any **** at all?

[mikeyjuan]

In regard to the Ghoul 2...there isn't anything wrong with it. There may be a problem with the fact that lag becomes more noticeable because of that, but if you do a bot match where there is no lag, you can clearly see there isn't a problem with the actual Ghoul 2. Now, I understand you probably have no clue how these things work behind the scenes, but when you start flinging around things like "the saber system is flawed", then it's not really addressing the real issue. Now if you had approached the problem with the stance of trying to figure out the nature of the problem, such as thinking "well, if the damage seems to be random, why is that?" Now, if you were trying to problem solve instead of Raven bash, then you should come up with "the game is determining that certain swings do different damage even if the swing is the same." Now, the only thing left to figure out is that the only other thing that enters into the equation is the body which gets hit by the saber...like where it gets hit. So if there is positional hitting, perhaps the reason for the seeming randomness is because of lag...to determine if this is the case, do the bot test. Once you know that the actual saber system works, it should be fairly obvious that the problem lies in the data exchange rate...a ping of 80-100 is easily enough to cause confusion. It's still enough to cause a noticeable difference, since you noticed, even though hit detection works when there is no lag.

 

Since you an obvious fan boy, delerious, or you just plain want to nit pick about details let me reword this for you.

 

There is an obvious problem in the game since when you play a MULTIPLAYER GAME ONLINE *AND WILL NEVER PING 0 ON AN INTERNET GAME* the saber damage becomes as random as the lottery.

 

You just sitting there blaming it on lag is plain retarted. Lets do an analagy.

 

Thats like saying you purchased a new Boat that goes 150 MPH gets 100milesPerGallon and has a chick sitting in the passanger seat ready to suck you off when ever you want. Unfortunatly this boat can't float and sinks soon as u put it in water.

 

Now... you just purchased a game from raven with this awesome new saber detection system, goul or what ever, that can detect power and position of attacks. Unfortunatly this saber system is useless when you do multiplayer because your attack damage becomes random and sloppy.

 

You can't get around the fact that your boat has to be in water, just like you can't get around the fact that your multiplayer game is going to have a ping of around 80'ish!

 

Great you can kill bots when u do a single player server... but thats like the chick in the back of the boat sucking you off, its fun for a while but what you really wanna do is get your boat in the water and see how it performs

[Gabrobot]

In regard to the saber system and pings: My point was that your original statement about the saber system being flawed was incorrect. The saber system is fine by itself, but it's limited by current internet technology.

 

In regard to the poll: Since you competitive gamers contact each other to come vote, it means that the number of positive votes should be fairly accurate, eh? Well, considering the thousands of people who bought JA, 100 people is nothing.

 

In regard to:

That's pretty silly. "Do the best they can." How many internet matches have you participated in since you got the game? Of how many different gametypes? I've played a multitude of matches in FFA, TFFA, CTF, Power Duel, Duel and Siege. I have a broader base of experience with which to speak about the issues I have with ghoul2. It would be slightly more acceptable if these problems were relegated to a single gametype...but the fact that they persist through all types of gameplay is somewhat discouraging. It makes the single player game more exciting than the multiplayer game, which isn't exactly what Quake is about (and by association, JA).

 

Well, Raven put the technology in...it's the game. You don't have to do the best you can, but it's not going to help you any. I have a 56k connection, and have pings of over 300...I have to deal with it the best I can. You have pings of 80-100...you should try dealing with it the best you can. Raven might change the technology in a patch, but I think it's highly unlikely.

 

And this is a Jedi Knight game, not a Quake game. Jedi Knight games have always focused on the Single Player, and the Single Player has always been the selling point of them. Hell, Dark Forces (the first game in the series, which didn't have light sabers, by the way) was entirely Single Player. Besides, even Quake 4 is going to focus on Single Player...

 

In regard to learning all the strategies and moves and stuff: My whole point is that no one can possibly know all the strategies in the game already. Claim what you like, I suspect there will be players who rise up who will be better than you if the game's gameplay is left intact for a month or two. Why? Because you don't seem very willing to admit that there may stuff that you still need to learn.

 

 

Ok, here's one question I want to see you people answer: Why change the gameplay now, then later? If there really are problems with the gameplay, then they can be fixed later when people have a more complete view of JA's gameplay. And if some people are too impatient to wait and will leave before then, then I wouldn't think they'd be the kind of people that would help make a healthy JA community, anyway.

[mikeyjuan]

The saber system is not fine if it doesn't work w/ "todays internet technology" as you put it! Omfg why can't you understand that.