Solo Saber Nerfed Thread

[Emon]

What's premature being relative got to do with anything? I don't think AL's saying, "Raven, wait six months before you make a patch!" I think he's saying that Raven should simply not rush out and patch the game as soon as possible, rather listen to the general public, then make judgements themselves on when and what a patch should be.

 

It also doesn't help that you're both the Black Knight...

[traj]

Originally posted by Emon

What's premature being relative got to do with anything?

 

Well, at the end of every post AL makes he says "Raven, we don't want a premature patch!".

 

The point is, whats premature in AL's eyes is not necessarily premature in other's minds. Alot of people think a patch right now is not premature at all, AL disagrees. I'm just pointing out that it's AL's opinion stating the patch is premature, not a fact.

 

It also doesn't help that you're both the Black Knight..

 

 

uhhhh, ok.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by traj

uhhhh, ok.

 

Lost on me too. I think he's trying to imply something about our being dark horses, but that shouldn't matter, as it's clear our POV has just as much, if not more, merit as AL's.

[Agen]

The point is, whats premature in AL's eyes is not necessarily premature in other's minds. Alot of people think a patch right now is not premature at all, AL disagrees. I'm just pointing out that it's AL's opinion stating the patch is premature, not a fact.

Just as Al says, They prematurely patched jk2 imo to 1.03 and screwed up alot of main gameplay elements. The nature of this community is very obvious by now, WHINING. Of course they are going to whine from the start, until the whiners disappear mostly they should wait till the real complaints come through THEN they patch First on the wish list for me would be - Hit Detection and servers showing for the ingame thing.

[Vanor]

There's a fundemental flaw in addresing balance and gameplay at this stage of JA's life. That is we don't know that there aren't techinal reasons for what people are seeing.

 

It's equally likely that the issues people have with the behavor of single sabers are due to bugs, as issues with design or balance.

 

I think it would be a good idea for Raven to go and look at their code, and make sure that all saber types are working as intended. To make sure that the damage that single sabers as well as dual/staff sabers do, is corect for what they intended them to do.

 

It is also imporant for Raven to make sure hit dections and such are all working properly, which may or may not be the case based on reports by some people elsewhere.

 

So it's good for people to report their opinions and experances, because it will cause Raven to look and make sure everything is working right.

 

Only when Raven feels and lets us know, that everything is working as they intended can a serrious and meaningfull discussion about balance take place.

 

Otherwise you could have a patch that tweaks the single saber damage levels, then a second patch which fixes a bug they didn't know of, which makes single sabers twice as powerfull as intended orginally.

 

So until a patch that addresses bugs, both known and at this time unknown, asking for changes in balance or design is premature.

[Emon]

Originally posted by traj

uhhhh, ok.

 

They're both the Black Knight from Monty Python, neither is going to give up, at least that's how it seems... 'Cause this isn't going anywhere.

[C'jais]

Something I noticed -

 

Is it correct that the dual and double sabers are very difficult to parry (IE bash aside) and that they do this very easily to both blue and yellow stance?

 

I have yet to see the blue and yellow stance parry the new sabers, even though they can deal damage to the wielder.

 

I know Raven intended the single saber to be inferior to the new dual and double sabers (check Kurgan's interview), but I'd just hate having to rely on red stance as the sole means to combat them.

[Spider AL]

Emon:

 

They're both the Black Knight from Monty Python, neither is going to give up, at least that's how it seems... 'Cause this isn't going anywhere.

While I'm honoured by the comparison to my favourite character, I must point out that none of Ardent's "assertions" make any sense whatsoever. Hypocrisy? Most odd... So where can a conflict between me and him go, exactly? He won't even debate the points at hand, he just puts his fingers in his ears and attempts to sing-song dissenters to death. I'm certainly not going to say "You're so right!!!111" to such a troll. Thus, he'll continue the endless cycle. Oh well.

 

Traj:

 

The point is, whats premature in AL's eyes is not necessarily premature in other's minds.

Less than a month after the game's release is premature by any standard. Come now, I know you insist that you know everything there is to know about JA, but games are explored and understood for months after their release. In fact, they never stop being explored. There's ALWAYS more to learn, new strategies to discover. I make it a point to invent a new strategy every day, no matter how feeble. Keeps me on top of the game.

 

So don't think for one minute that you've plumbed the depths of JA, and don't think for one minute that it's not too early to start fiddling with the game's innards to "improve" it.

 

Ardent:

 

Look man, you yap on and on about premature patching but...as traj said, it's a relative term.

Heh heh, people like yourself always drag out the "it's all relative so STFU NOOB!!!1" card when they're losing... It's too early by any stretch of the imagination. Less than a month. Only relative in the minds of those who are self-interested.

 

I haven't engaged in a good diatribe in a while. I'm getting there, though. The fact is, however, you're going back on what you've already said about JA and JO being exclusive in and of each other. But then you're pushing us to "remember" some horrible misdeed done with 1.03 and 1.04. Patches, most of us, still play on/with, despite the rampant (and somehow imbalanced?) nerfage. I hate to break it to you, but when two skilled players go at it, all these "imbalances" are nowhere to be seen. The only thing that matters is the relative skill of the players in the primary mode of offense, be it guns or sabers or kicking. The end.

Uh-huh. Either you're confused or I am. And I'm not. To me, that paragraph means very little other than "I think patches are kewl, d00d." Which is fine, you're entitled to an opinion.

 

If you'd dig your head up out of wherever it's stuck and looked around,

And the trolling continues. How mature.

 

May you live a long and prosperous life, Ardent. That's the best response to such things, I find.

 

As I said, I have much bigger guns. A quick browse of the CTF clan forums would prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm not trying to start anything. What I want has already started, and that's the loss of faith in your words by the average reader.

I thought you didn't play with guns? And besides comparing the sizes of our weapons and insisting that I'm losing votes0rz, do you have ANYTHING pertinent to say in this "post" of yours? Let's see... Something about pizzas... Ah, here we are:

 

Again, I urge you, go look at the current JO ladders. I'm sure rum can link you, he knows where they all are.

Aha. I see, you think because you and your current acquaintances have decided in the last year and a half to call your gametype "SO CTF" I should do so as well, despite having played and called it "NG CTF" for nigh on four and a half years now?

 

Like I say, you're entitled to an opinion... I'm entitled to laugh at it, though.

 

Hey now, Kurgan seems to believe I maintain a level of civility above and beyond that of a troll. I happen to agree. I just represent a viewpoint opposing yours, so you've attempted to label me. Perhaps you're the troll?

Oh Kurgan's profession on here is that of a peacemaker, not a righteous avenger unfortunately. You on the other hand... are a troll. Insults, non-veiled, veiled, direct, indirect, your posts are entirely comprised of them. I've turned all your so-called "arguments" into quivering mush through the sheer power of the fact that... they're nonsense, and yet you're still dancing away with nary a backward glance...

 

Must be a troll. Simple.

 

There are better places to troll on purpose. Regrettably, you visit none of those places to my knowledge. :'( As far as your being a fool, perhaps so, but not for my love. You may have none.

As expected, you're an expert on trolling. And I never said "your love". I was naturally referring to the love of GOD. More reading praccy for you I think!

 

Remember Raven, don't listen to one person!

Ten at the last count in this thread alone... Vun, ah-ah-ah! Two! ah-ah-ah.... Three! ah-ah-ah...

 

You're still not worth my time.

And yet you remain. Trolling. It provides amusement, at the least... And a regular opportunity to say:

 

Wait a while before listening to players demands Raven! No premature patching! Remember 1.03!

 

For that I thank you. We were running out of sufficiently rabid NG CTFers.

[Vanor]

Originally posted by C'jais

I know Raven intended the single saber to be inferior to the new dual and double sabers (check Kurgan's interview), but I'd just hate having to rely on red stance as the sole means to combat them.

 

But that doesn't mean that there isn't issues that haven't been addressed yet. The question isn't if the single saber should or shouldn't be inferior, IMO. The question is if it works as they intended it to or not.

 

It may be, that the single saber was intended to be inferior, but not quite to the point that it currently is. Until there's at least one patch dealing with bugs, there's no way of knowing if what people see is due to design or bug.

 

edit: nevermind I found it.

[dibiddilybop]

From my (very limited) experience, I think the sabers are very balanced. They play very differently from each other (duh?), but all can be equally devastating if used correctly. However, I'm going to have to do a bunch more playing to form a truly educated opinion about it.

[traj]

Originally posted by Agen_Terminator

Just as Al says, They prematurely patched jk2 imo to 1.03 and screwed up alot of main gameplay elements. The nature of this community is very obvious by now, WHINING. Of course they are going to whine from the start, until the whiners disappear mostly they should wait till the real complaints come through THEN they patch

 

Yeah, go away you whiners and stop giving RAVEN input about the game. You couldn't possibly know anything about the game after 16 days. Soon we will discover ways to kill FCs and end FF duels. Have patience or if you don't like it, GO PLAY ANOTHER GAME YOU WHINERS!

 

We don't need your input in the forums. Your complaints aren't real, they are whines.

[Emon]

Originally posted by Spider AL

And yet you remain.

 

That's true, you can't ignore that fact...

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Spider AL

While I'm honoured by the comparison to my favourite character, I must point out that none of Ardent's "assertions" make any sense whatsoever. Hypocrisy? Most odd... So where can a conflict between me and him go, exactly? He won't even debate the points at hand, he just puts his fingers in his ears and attempts to sing-song dissenters to death. I'm certainly not going to say "You're so right!!!111" to such a troll. Thus, he'll continue the endless cycle. Oh well.

 

You could give up and go buy a pizza. There's no shame in losing. Especially losing honorably. Or something.

 

Less than a month after the game's release is premature by any standard. Come now, I know you insist that you know everything there is to know about JA, but games are explored and understood for months after their release. In fact, they never stop being explored. There's ALWAYS more to learn, new strategies to discover. I make it a point to invent a new strategy every day, no matter how feeble. Keeps me on top of the game.

 

Hardly. A lot of games are released WITH a patch the same day. It depends on a lot of things. Namely how buggy the game is. It's fair to say that JA is still pretty buggy.

 

So don't think for one minute that you've plumbed the depths of JA, and don't think for one minute that it's not too early to start fiddling with the game's innards to "improve" it.

 

I know all about plumbing the depths, just ask Traj. But the fact that we haven't explored EVERY SINGLE FREAKING POSSIBILITY doesn't mean we can't say something is broken. If I were to smash your leg with a baseball bat, would you like the doctor to sit there counting individual bone pieces and comment on how clean this fracture was and how jagged that one was? I wouldn't, I'd rather he quit stalling, shoot me up with some morphine and get to freaking work.

 

Heh heh, people like yourself always drag out the "it's all relative so STFU NOOB!!!1" card when they're losing... It's too early by any stretch of the imagination. Less than a month. Only relative in the minds of those who are self-interested.

 

Fine, I'll use terms you can understand. And I quote: "You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." Good enough? It's relative because, to be blunt, everything is. This world is built on a foundation of math and art, all of which is relative to some arbitrary point someone created when these two things first came into existence. SOrry, it's not a card, it's the truth.

 

Uh-huh. Either you're confused or I am. And I'm not. To me, that paragraph means very little other than "I think patches are kewl, d00d." Which is fine, you're entitled to an opinion.

 

I think you're the one who is confused. Seriously...look at the first two sentances. First you don't know, then you say you know, but how do we know you're not just copping out?

 

May you live a long and prosperous life, Ardent. That's the best response to such things, I find.

 

Fair enough, but I don't wish something like 5 years of bedsores and constant pain on anyone.

 

I thought you didn't play with guns? And besides comparing the sizes of our weapons and insisting that I'm losing votes0rz, do you have ANYTHING pertinent to say in this "post" of yours?

 

Actually, I don't believe I ever said I don't play with guns. I just prefer SO. Guns are something that can be had in any game.

 

EDITOR'S NOTE: Sentance snipped for trolling.

 

Aha. I see, you think because you and your current acquaintances have decided in the last year and a half to call your gametype "SO CTF" I should do so as well, despite having played and called it "NG CTF" for nigh on four and a half years now?

 

Because it's common decency. If you started talking about, oh I dunno, your car, wouldn't I be a dumbass if I started calling it a mobile vehicular device? I think so. So, corellate.

 

Like I say, you're entitled to an opinion... I'm entitled to laugh at it, though.

 

I'm entitled to kick you in the gonads if I'm willing to do the time for Assault & Battery. But you don't see me exercising that right, do you?

 

Oh Kurgan's profession on here is that of a peacemaker, not a righteous avenger unfortunately. You on the other hand... are a troll. Insults, non-veiled, veiled, direct, indirect, your posts are entirely comprised of them. I've turned all your so-called "arguments" into quivering mush through the sheer power of the fact that... they're nonsense, and yet you're still dancing away with nary a backward glance...

 

Must be a troll. Simple.

 

You've done what now? ****, I didn't notice that. Nor, do I think, has anyone else who agrees that perspectives are relative and yours is in the toilet.

 

As far as being a troll...I'll admit it if you will. ^-^

 

As expected, you're an expert on trolling. And I never said "your love". I was naturally referring to the love of GOD. More reading praccy for you I think!

 

Indeed I am. That's because I'm active on nearly half a dozen political debate forums. I see trolls all the time. REAL trolls. Ones with little or nothing to contribute to the debate except a few direct insults at someone because they're of this party or that. Libertarian is probably the most commonly slung insult. :/

 

Ten at the last count in this thread alone... Vun, ah-ah-ah! Two! ah-ah-ah.... Three! ah-ah-ah...

 

I count one and...um...a couple of people who are still sitting on the fence. You sure you passed arithmetic?

 

And yet you remain. Trolling. It provides amusement, at the least... And a regular opportunity to say:

 

Wait a while before listening to players demands Raven! No premature patching! Remember 1.03!

 

Thanks for the prompt.

 

Raven, don't listen to someone tied to their desk!

 

For that I thank you. We were running out of sufficiently rabid NG CTFers.

 

Hey no problem. You might want to have that frothing at the edges of your mouth looked into, though. Rabid fanboy-ism is a serious affliction.

[FK | unnamed]

It's really sad watching a lot of you pretend that this is a great, wonderful *new game.

 

I've seen this before somewhere...

 

Hmmm...

 

Oh yeah, back in 1999 when that episode 1 move with a 9 year old boy running around going "yippee!" was sold to fans as being part of the star wars saga.

 

I remember watching them trying to defend it and convince themselves that it was a good movie.

 

They were such die hard star wars fans that they simply could not just say "holy **** that sucked", so they looked for the tiniest little details to try to convince themselves it was not a crappy flick.

 

"The Darth Maul fight scene kicked ass!"

 

Sure did, but what about the other 2+ hours?

 

"Ummm.... uhh... DARTH MAUL RULES!"

 

I mean I know there are a lot of casual players who do not really get that deep into the game play to notice the flaws, but I know some of you do see them but are so dead set against agreeing with us that you will never admit it.

 

Either that or your hopes were set so high and you are just scrambling to try and find anything to cling to that offsets the disappointment.

 

Granted some would call that living in denial, but…

 

 

 

 

I mean no joke, you guys really do sound like the battered woman defending the trailer trash husband who just beat the hell out of her on an episode of “Cops”.

 

I’m not hearing things like:

 

“Man this hit detection is dead on!”

 

or

 

“God I just love the way you can’t grip people and hold them behind things!”

 

or

 

“Holy ****! The specials cost 25 force? Kick ass!!!”

 

 

What I do see is:

 

“Maybe it’s lag”

 

“It’s a different game”

 

“Well they changed it for a reason”

[Prime]

Originally posted by FK | unnamed

It's really sad watching a lot of you pretend that this is a great, wonderful *new game.

So because I genuinely do really enjoy JA, I must be lying to myself and everyone else? Is it impossible that I could find JA to be a fun and satisfying game?

 

It is also sad that some people's lives fall to pieces when a video game feature X or Y isn't quite right.

 

I don't care if you don't like it, but don't tell me I can't like it either.

[Vanor]

Originally posted by FK | unnamed

It's really sad watching a lot of you pretend that this is a great, wonderful *new game.

 

Some people are genually happy with how JA plays. Does that make their opinion invalid, because it isn't the same opinion you have?

 

“Holy ****! The specials cost 25 force? Kick ass!!!”

 

I personally do think that's a great feature. It keeps people from spaming the special moves, and forces people to give a little thought to what they are doing and when they can do it.

 

“Well they changed it for a reason”

 

Well maybe JA works exactly as Raven intended it to work. Just because it doesn't play the way you want it to, doesn't mean the design is invalid, just that it doesn't work for you. That doesn't mean there aren't bugs that need to be addressed. But it is possable that JA plays more or less like Raven intended it to.

 

But just for the heck of it, I thought I'd sum up all the opinions provided here in this thread, without all the meaningless text.

 

One group, who feel that the game has ballance issues that need to be dealt with soon.

 

One group, who feel that 2 or even 3 weeks is simply not enough time to know if game play design and balance needs to be changed. Not that it shouldn't be changed, but right now is too soon.

 

Then one group who feel that the game is basicly good as is, but that there are some bugs still in the game that should be adressed.

[dibiddilybop]

Originally posted by Vanor

Then one group who feel that the game is basicly good as is, but that there are some bugs still in the game that should be adressed.

 

I guess I'm part of this group. I'm having a lot of fun with the game and think, for the most part, it's great. Some bugs, but nothing show stopping. Sorry you don't think so FK. Guess this just isn't the game for you.

[traj]

Guess not. Everything seems to be hunky dory.

[Spider AL]

Ardent:

 

There's no shame in losing.

Then you need feel no shame.

 

Hardly. A lot of games are released WITH a patch the same day. It depends on a lot of things. Namely how buggy the game is. It's fair to say that JA is still pretty buggy.

Bugfixes? Who's been talking about bugfixes? I think everyone agrees that bugfixes are truly acceptable.

 

Gameplay modifications though? Not this early. It's that simple, to be honest.

 

But the fact that we haven't explored EVERY SINGLE FREAKING POSSIBILITY doesn't mean we can't say something is broken.

Yes, it really does. Until I've made sure that I've explored every possibility, and that I UNDERSTAND how my ideas would affect the entire community, I simply won't publish them. Naturally, I expect the same level of maturity from other people. You can't declare something is broken until you're sure you're just not using it wrong.

 

It's relative because, to be blunt, everything is. This world is built on a foundation of

Yes, everything's relative, and the sky isn't blue, it's green because that's relative too dont'cha know. Of course everything isn't relative, not to a realist. An experientialist. So how early is too early for gameplay patching? Five minutes after the game's released is too early. That's obvious. What about a day? Yep. A week? Obviously. Two weeks? Yes. A month? Yes. Two months? THEN it's a matter of opinion. THEN we can debate what month to draw the line at. But today? Too early.

 

I think you're the one who is confused.

Ah ah! Already informed you that I'm not the one who's confused. I think you must be confused...

 

Fair enough, but I don't wish something like 5 years of bedsores and constant pain on anyone.

Lies, you're inflicting the pain that comes with too much hilarity on me at the moment.

 

Because it's common decency. If you started talking about, oh I dunno, your car, wouldn't I be a dumbass if I started calling it a mobile vehicular device? I think so. So, corellate.

It's common decency to change my language to accomodate comparative newcomers to the gametype? Heh, I think not somehow. This is yet another example of your debating style.

 

No, the analogy is that I was calling it a "car" in 1998, and now you pop up and demand that I call it a "mobile vehicular device". Which of course is silly.

 

I'm entitled to kick you in the gonads if I'm willing to do the time for Assault & Battery. But you don't see me exercising that right, do you?

Hee hee! Finally what I've been waiting for... a nod to the old troll staple: "I AM A HAERD MAN DONT MESS WIT MEH!!!1 I KICK J00 INNA GONADS0rzZZ!!!!1"

 

Besides, I don't think you're legally entitled to commit a crime, even if you're aware of and willing to endure the punishment. Hence the concept of crime and the punishment for doing what you have no right to do, or what infringes the rights of others.

 

You've done what now? ****, I didn't notice that

Like your brethren, you're wilfully blind. I've explained at length that your assertions of hypocrisy on my part are baseless, and provably so. I've pointed out the many times you've trolled and insulted... I win this "debate" if you can call it that, to be honest. The fellow who lies knocked out can delude himself that he won the fight all he wants, as you do. Doesn't make it so.

 

I'm active on nearly half a dozen political debate forums. I see trolls all the time. REAL trolls. Ones with little or nothing to contribute to the debate except a few direct insults at someone because they're of this party or that.

A troll is one who seeks conflict, and attempts to engender it. You are such a one. It is that simple. It is one thing that is impossible to debate. The fact that you have failed to goad me into responding in kind makes you no less of a troll, merely an ineffective troll.

 

As far as being a troll...I'll admit it if you will. ^-^

Ah, I admit that you're a troll! Now you can admit that you're a troll too.

 

I count one and...um...a couple of people who are still sitting on the fence. You sure you passed arithmetic?

Whoops! Watch your PR there my friend, you've just alienated ten people by showing that you've ignored them!

 

Raven, don't listen to someone tied to their desk!

That's right Raven! Listen to someone who's stapled to their desk.

 

This staple-victim and many others in this thread alone, on these forums and on your own forums, say no to premature patching!

 

Hey no problem. You might want to have that frothing at the edges of your mouth looked into, though. Rabid fanboy-ism is a serious affliction.

I sense a pattern emerging here... Your accusations aren't very original are they... Let us review...

 

THE STORY SO FAR (en bref):

 

Spider AL: No premature gameplay patching of JA! Remember what happened to JO v1.03!

 

Ardent: Hypocrite!

 

Spider AL: What? Where did you get that?

 

Ardent: I WIN!

 

Spider AL: Omg, you're a troll.

 

Ardent: Maybe you're a troll.

 

Spider AL: ...

 

Ad infinitum...

 

***

 

Unnamed:

 

I mean no joke, you guys really do sound like the battered woman defending the trailer trash husband who just beat the hell out of her on an episode of “Cops”.

Uhh hey man, calm down. It's a game, not an abusive husband... Even if we were all wrong, which we ain't, it wouldn't be THAT big of a deal.

 

Perhaps the reason you guys desperately want a patch is because of the hopes you had for this game specifically. That's not a bad thing, but I feel compelled to tell you what you already know: Hope is one thing, but don't let hope lead to unrealistic expectations.

 

It's really sad watching a lot of you pretend that this is a great, wonderful *new game.

Well umm... I enjoy it?

 

Don't hit me.

 

[Emon]

On the point of other games getting patched the same day... Yes, that is true. C&C Generals had many bug fixes a few days after it came out, mostly critical communications problems between games in MP.

 

And, just because a game has patches the same day, doesn't necessarily make it good. Enter the Matrix got several patches very early, and hey, it still sucks...

[Spider AL]

Werd Emon. Also notable that bugfixes are entirely separate from gameplay alterations.

[Rumor]

delving into the internet catchphrases, i see.

[Aragorn327]

Personally, I think there are several game imbalances.

 

However, these should not be fixed yet.

 

If any patches come out soon, they should be for real bugs.

 

Alot of my friends haven't gotten the game yet, while I got it the first day. Over the next few weeks, more people will buy the game, and more testing can occur. I think dual sabers need to be nerfed at some point and some other things switched around, but, not right at this moment. Eventually, certainly, but, give it about a month.

[boinga1]

Originally posted by Aragorn327

Personally, I think there are several game imbalances.

 

However, these should not be fixed yet.

 

If any patches come out soon, they should be for real bugs.

 

Amen.

[traj]

Originally posted by Big Spider Al

The fellow who lies knocked out can delude himself that he won the fight all he wants, as you do. Doesn't make it so.

 

Anyone know where AL can buy a mirror?