IG-64 Posted February 7, 2004 Author Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by Astrotoy7 I would like to thank Breton for turning this into an interesting thread, rather than the redneck lynch mob it was turning into. To cite the example, "youd want to kill this guy if it was your own daughter/sister" yes, that may be true, grieving for such a tragic loss is a very complex emotional process, of which anger and being powerless(to rectify events) are dominating emotions. The taking of the perpertrators life sates these emotions. If someone close to the girl turned up and killed the man in question, *their* motivations can be understood(and dealt with by a court of law accordingly). I simply think it is unhealthy for an entire society to develop this same mindset. It all comes down to fear in the end, and the fear that a horrific event like this would generate in the broader community. Unfortunately, a community bred on fear is an inherently violent one. now I am beginning to see what Mike Moore was talking about in "Bowling for Columbine", I am glad I do not live in the US...... Revenge is not Justice.......Justice is not Revenge rather than getting into a flame fest which would be *completely disrespectful* to the young lady's memory - I will instead dedicate this verse to her. May her soul swim to Heaven quickly * * * from The Soul's Storm by Emily Dicksinson I went to heaven 'Twas a small town, Lit with a Ruby, Lathed with down. Stiller than fields At full dew, Beautiful as pictures No man drew. *** Fine I'll go with that, I don't like the idea of him turning this into an "intresting" thread and us turning this into a "disrespectfull flame" thread but oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by IG-64 Fine I'll go with that, I don't like the idea of him turning this into an "intresting" thread and us turning this into a "disrespectfull flame" thread but oh well. I felt quite early on that 'interesting' wasn't the appropriate word, I've since changed it..... I really don't want to comment on this topic anymore, I've said what I wanted to say already.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted February 7, 2004 Author Share Posted February 7, 2004 Deepest sympathies to Charlie Brucia and her family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by IG-64 Deepest sympathies to Charlie Brucia and her family ... and may her soul rest in peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leXX Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 I won't bother responding to all of your answers because I feel my feelings on this matter are clear, and they are not going to change, and I would just be repeating myself. I must however respond to this ... Originally posted by Breton Giving into anger like that rather than sense and understanding, you'd make a horrible Jedi...and cutting off people's genitals like that does indicate that you would be unable to control yourself when facing a highly emotional situation, so that's a way of mental disorder, I'm afraid. Keep in mind that this was not meant as an insulting remark in any way. I'd make a horrible Jedi? I'm not trying to be a Jedi, I am a mother...MOTHER. Ponder that word for a moment. It is something you will never be, and have absolutely no understanding of. You cannot even begin to imagine the overwhelming love I feel for my daughters. I carried them, I look after them, see to their every need, keep them from harm. They are my life, my soul, my very existence. You are right, I would not be able to control myself in that situation. I would want the person responsible for harming my precious daughter to die a long and painful death. Would it bring my daughter back? No it wouldn't, but it would give me immense satisfaction knowing that they were dead too and had suffered as much pain as my daughter did. It is not a mental disorder to feel like this, it is a perfectly natural emotion in that situation. You seem to be under the impression that anyone with an emotion of anything but love and understanding has a mental disorder. I feel sorry for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 I can somewhat understand what you say, Breton. But keep in mind, people would use this to take advantage of the justice system, if we just brushed this off as a mental disorder, that no control could be taken over, it's just foolish. Your analogies are all wrong too, while I understand them, They hold no merrit to the situation. You are taking the extreme by saying we kill those who make c's, to truely match up the analogies, it wouldn't be kill the c student it would be, ground the c student. when they see what they have done is wrong they will change their ways, but then again in the nature of self preservation and elimination of threat we are to take neccesary action upon those who could do us harm. By jailing this man, even killing him we are maintaining a safer place. To punish the c student we would ground them or take away distractionf from their goal of doing better. I suggest you watch an episode of Law and Order: SVU where they discuss a situation exactly like this, and where they get into a discussion exactly like we are having. Simply because certain things we can't control doesn't mean we can excuse them. I have ADHD and ADD and many other mental disabilities, but I'm still able to slightly control them. I was raised in a somewhat aggressive enviroment, but I am able to contain my rage right now, because I have also learned self control. While he can't control his emotion and mental thought, he can control his bodies reaction to these thoughts, While we have come a long way in interpreting the body and brains connection, you are stuck back in the 70's transformation of these ideas. Remember, we may not have control of our thoughts, but we can decide if we act upon them or not. Just as a jedi. Obi-Wan felt anger at many a thing, but he didn't always act on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_One Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Can I just make one, very simple, yet completely relevant point: You can never be totally moralistic, for many morals contradict others. Therefore, no-one can ever be completely guilty, or innocent - as everything is relative. Sounds silly, but think about it. Then consider the contents of this thread and you will find that everyone is right, and wrong in their own way. Due to this undeniable complexity of human emotion, there have to be simple rules. I think these rules are fair: murder/rape etc.. = prison. If you were going to be completely moralistic, anyone who murdered a murderer should be given the same punishment. But it simply does not work like that. Ok, I lied, that is not that simple to understand - but read it over and you will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by The_One Can I just make one, very simple, yet completely relevant point: You can never be totally moralistic, for many morals contradict others. Therefore, no-one can ever be completely guilty, or innocent - as everything is relative. Sounds silly, but think about it. Then consider the contents of this thread and you will find that everyone is right, and wrong in their own way. Due to this undeniable complexity of human emotion, there have to be simple rules. I think these rules are fair: murder/rape etc.. = prison. If you were going to be completely moralistic, anyone who murdered a murderer should be given the same punishment. But it simply does not work like that. Ok, I lied, that is not that simple to understand - but read it over and you will you totally ripped off confucious good on ya though mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Originally posted by IG-64 Ok, let me clear this up for you, first of all, who are you to tell me what I should, and should not believe? I was merely stating my opinion about what people should believe (or know) in general for the world to be the best possible. Secondly, if I get my wallet stolen, and I get mad because of it, it's not because I have a "mental disorder". No matter what you say about it, that is still just an assumption and I do not believe it is true. I'm mad at you right now and the reason for that is that I am a human being and I have emotions, the brain is far more complex than you think, I feel sympathy towards her and wrath towards him, that is a normal emotion and it is not from some twisted ecuation from my childhood. You have the assumption that if a human isn't happy then he is mental and anyone that studies human consciousness or even has just a bit of common sense can tell you that that is wrong. You can sit there and ponder in your own little twisted world but leave me alone about it because I believe in human desision and there is nothing you can say about it, so stfu. I'm not sure it will help, but I will once more state my opinion to avoid people misunderstanding them, like you and leXX have done. I think we all can agree that having a mental disorder equals having a mentality outside of what's normal, at least that's my definition of it. And as no one are mentally similar, no one are what you would call "normal", and thus have a disorder. It's not "normal" to respond to a post about human psyche at a forums, thus responding to this post will be a mental disorder. It's not "normal" to like Star Wars, yet another mental disorder. Or if a person doesn't like chocolate, then that's a mental disorder too. Some would of course call this simple diversity in mentality, but in that case, why isn't not being able to understand one's actions simple diversity? However, there is no need of help for these disorders unless they are a problem for either you or others or makes you unable to live on the clean side of the law. Having emotions is very normal, but no one gets the same emotions and the same amount of emotions as what's "normal" in different situations, so that's that. Originally posted by Jedi Luke What are you on about that we have no control over ourselves?!? . Us (humans) act on self awareness, not by instinct. That being said, he is AWARE of what he did to this young girl. Us humans act on impressions of what's happening and what's happened around us and our own mentality. You have no control over what's happening around you, and you have no control over your own mentality. Choice, as you know it, does not exist. Btw, I am therefore innocent for vadilising, stealing, speeding, underage drinking, even when I knew what I was doing. You present it as sarcasm, but you are actually correct. People who get C's at school, patients at hospital do not abuse and take away someone's life. Irrelevant. People who get below C's still have problems at school, patients at hospitals are still ill. It seems to me you didn't understand properly what I was saying. Answer: YES!! Would you let this guy walk free because he has a 'mental problem and no control over himself?' More children would fall victim to him. More innocent lives (not him) will be spent. Please, read my posts, they are there for a reason. If you had done this, you would discover that I am in no way suggesting that they should walk free. It may be possible but unlikely. You are born the way you are. It's all in the genetic makeup. He cannot deny his natural attractions, therefore is a danger to society, therefore must be secluded from society in some way. To keep others safe Genes have little to do with your mentality The impressions you make during your life count way more, and the mentality created by these can be changed. Well, I'm a mental case then, and I think 99.999999% here are. Your estimation is 0.000001% too low, I'm afraid. OMG!!! They've KILLED SOMEONE, DESTROYED A FAMILY and you're talking about 'that's too harsh a punishment?!?!?!?!?!?!? No punishment subconciouslly makes people tell themselves that they can do it again and again. As many others, you see punishment as revenge, the bigger the crime, the more brutal revenge. But as I've said 4 or 5 times already, revenge solves nothing and only makes it twice as bad. Treatment is as I see it the best way to prevent it from happening again, changing the mentality of criminals to make them able to function in society is the best way to take them away from crime. No we can't bring the girl back but we can stop the same guy from taking MANY MORE YOUNG GIRLS' LIVES. His death vs 16 other girls: I choose his death As I believe I've said plenty of times before, I am not suggesting letting them go free. Making them understand their actions?!? Hahahahahahah , don't make me laugh. These guys have ABSOLUTELY NO MORALS OR CONSCIENCE AT ALL!!!! You can't give them one as it's the way they are!! Unsupported assertions. All mental disorders can be treated in one way or another, and if the attempt fails, then we've lost nothing. It doesn't SIMPLY happen. Killing someone isn't something SIMPLE that you wake up and think 'I think I might simply kill someone today'. The fact is that HE KNOWS WHAT HE DID and he must be punished!! No one who is capable of knowing what they are doing would kill a little girl. If they were capable of knowing it, they would understand that they are taking an innocent life and bringing harm upon other humans for no reason, and would not do it. That being will result in it happening again and again. Again, I do not suggest to let them go free. You make it sound so simple to 'cure' someone when it really isn't. The fact is that it CANNOT BE CHANGED, HE CANNOT CHANGE, it's sad, but that's the way he is. He knows what he did and cos he has no conscience or morals, he doesn't give a $h!t. Therefore this guy who took away a little girl's life MUST, I repeat MUST be punished!!! More unsupported assertions, mentalities can always cbe changed by giving new impressions to change the old ones. Originally posted by Astrotoy7 I would like to thank Breton for turning this into a valid discussion, rather than the redneck lynch mob it was turning into. You're welcome. Originally posted by leXX I'd make a horrible Jedi? I'm not trying to be a Jedi, I am a mother...MOTHER. Ponder that word for a moment. It is something you will never be, and have absolutely no understanding of. You cannot even begin to imagine the overwhelming love I feel for my daughters. I carried them, I look after them, see to their every need, keep them from harm. They are my life, my soul, my very existence. You are right, I would not be able to control myself in that situation. I would want the person responsible for harming my precious daughter to die a long and painful death. Would it bring my daughter back? No it wouldn't, but it would give me immense satisfaction knowing that they were dead too and had suffered as much pain as my daughter did. It is not a mental disorder to feel like this, it is a perfectly natural emotion in that situation. You seem to be under the impression that anyone with an emotion of anything but love and understanding has a mental disorder. I feel sorry for you. I am deeply sorry for saying this, leXX, but making this person die a long and painful death because he did the same with your daughter would make you no better than this person in the first place. "He did it first!" is no valid excuse, the two actions would be similar and that's what counts. And if your emotions would make you do things outside of the law, then that's not normal and would be a mental disorder. I feel sorry for you. Please don't, there's no reason to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jed Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Just as Jedi Luke, your only argument for wanting him dead is as revenge. I hate to repeat myself, but revenge only makes it twice as bad. Why take another life? You won't bring back the little girl by killing someone, in case you didn't know. You may not bring that little girl back, but you'll certainly prevent the guy from doing it again. And it's a lot more effective than trying to cure the guy, and then letting him out on the streets to do the same crime to someone else. Yeah, I'm sure the girl's family will get so much happier if you kill another innocent. Yep, they'll be real sad to see a poor, innocent rapist and murderer get wiped off the face of this earth. The fact of the matter is, even if we could cure these people, do you realize how much it would cost the government? A lot more than putting them in prison. Why should taxpayers pay for the "correction" of murderers, serial killers, and rapists, when the correction may not even work, while the American public is paying for the "correction" and their own health expenses! Let's make the national debt soar even further without effectively solving the problem! You want to tell me I'm mental for thinking this way? Go for it. The fact is that we don't live in a perfect world. We solve things the most effective way so that people are safe - and yes, I know this is a bad choice, but it is a lot safer to kill these people. And no more of this innocent talk - these people are far from that. So let's agree to disagree. Your opinion won't change, and neither will mine. Giving into anger like that rather than sense and understanding, you'd make a horrible Jedi And for the record, this has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation, ya nerd EDIT: Unsupported assertions. All mental disorders can be treated in one way or another, and if the attempt fails, then we've lost nothing. If the attempt fails, we lose more lives. That's not nothing. I am deeply sorry for saying this, leXX, but making this person die a long and painful death because he did the same with your daughter would make you no better than this person in the first place. "He did it first!" is no valid excuse, the two actions would be similar and that's what counts. And if your emotions would make you do things outside of the law, then that's not normal and would be a mental disorder. My brain hurts just from reading that - no comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 85% of rapists, usually go back to their degenerative ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 I think the guy should fry. What a sick minded freak! The world would be better without him! Breton, you may not see any gain by killing him, but innocent little girls would see other wise. As for your comments towards leXX, I say shush. The next time you have a thought, just let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IG-64 Posted February 8, 2004 Author Share Posted February 8, 2004 Well, I'm gonna let this thread go. Good luck on your emotionless desisionless, simple, non-imaginative view on life, Breton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 I dont think we should kill this guy, but rather put him in isolation, then send him to every shower, let him get what he gave. then we pretty much starve him. Poor salt in his wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Luke Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Well, I've put in my two cents. I'm just glad that I'm innocent for vadilising, stealing, speeding, underage drinking, when I was aware of what I was doing at the time. I'm not gonna argue with that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Breton did you know that people such as Issac Newton and Galileo were considered criminals in their day, yet they were not mentally ill. (I hope you understand what I'm getting at here.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leXX Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by Breton I I am deeply sorry for saying this, leXX, but making this person die a long and painful death because he did the same with your daughter would make you no better than this person in the first place. "He did it first!" is no valid excuse, the two actions would be similar and that's what counts. I can quite honestly say that I have never read so much rubbish in my whole life. I would be no better than him? I don't go around raping and killing. The two actions are far from similar. He is killing because he is a sick, twisted and evil individual. I would be killing out of love for my daughter. I would accept the concequenses of my actions, and I wouldn't care if I spent the rest of my life in prison. I would be satisfied in the knowledge that my daughter could rest in peace, and I had removed this man from the planet so he couldn't harm anyone else's daughter. And if your emotions would make you do things outside of the law, then that's not normal and would be a mental disorder. I just downloaded an mp3. Oh no, that's illegal. Quick, someone call me a shrink. I have a mental disorder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoxStar Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by |GG|Crow_Nest Yeah, this really sucks. Hope that guy dies in prison. Jeffery Dahmer was beaten to death in prison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by RoxStar Jeffery Dahmer was beaten to death in prison. don't forget raped, he was raped too. They all get what's coming ot them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 First off Breton... Mental Illness: Any of various conditions characterized by impairment of an individual's normal cognitive, emotional, or behavioral functioning, and caused by social, psychological, biochemical, genetic, or other factors, such as infection or head trauma. Now, what's your definition of normal. Getting a C on a grade is NORMAL. It is AVERAGE. I don't see how that is a mental disorder. Lucasforums a disorder? *snickers* It doesn't seem to be an impairment to any of those things listed above. What dictionary are you getting the definition of mental disorder from? Originally posted by Breton Us humans act on impressions of what's happening and what's happened around us and our own mentality. You have no control over what's happening around you, and you have no control over your own mentality. Choice, as you know it, does not exist. If there's no choice, then there's no opinions, so your opinion is non-existant and therefore irrelevant. Originally posted by Breton Please, read my posts, they are there for a reason. If you had done this, you would discover that I am in no way suggesting that they should walk free. Yes you are. All they have to do is fake being cured. Originally posted by Breton Your estimation is 0.000001% too low, I'm afraid. I'm afraid that you have a mental disorder, or multiple mental disorders. You're wasting the valuble time of your on Lucasforums, thats a mental disorder. Unless I'm interpreting your version of a mental disorder incorrectly as the dictionary seems to have done... Originally posted by Breton Unsupported assertions. All mental disorders can be treated in one way or another, and if the attempt fails, then we've lost nothing. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??!?!?! IF THE ATTEMPT FAILS THEN WHERE DOES THE RAPIST GO??????? TO PRISON WHERE YOU SAID HE SHOULDN'T GO IN THE FIRST PLACE???? OR BACK OUT ONTO THE STREETS? *takes deep breath* Your plan is FLAWED. You say put them in institutions, but if it doesn't work, put 'em back on the streets because the death penalty is used only for revenge. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?!?! What a joke. Originally posted by Breton No one who is capable of knowing what they are doing would kill a little girl. If they were capable of knowing it, they would understand that they are taking an innocent life and bringing harm upon other humans for no reason, and would not do it. So the billions upon billions of people who have fought in wars since the beginning of time were all out of their mind? Originally posted by Breton Again, I do not suggest to let them go free. See my above rant where I used all bold case letters. Originally posted by Breton More unsupported assertions, mentalities can always be changed by giving new impressions to change the old ones. "All mental disorders can be treated in one way or another, and if the attempt fails, then we've lost nothing." Stop contradicting yourself. Originally posted by Breton And if your emotions would make you do things outside of the law, then that's not normal and would be a mental disorder. Once again, unless I'm mistaken, then you're contradicting yourself by saying that things such as people who get belows C's in school have a bad mentality and therefore have a mental illness, even though they aren't breaking the law, like you're saying people with mental disabilities always do in this sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysticSpade Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 any time something like this happens it makes you realise how much you love the ones who are close to you. but that guy deserves to meet a huge dude named tiny in prison. and i hate to say but i hope he doesn't make it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wilson Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 they shouldnt kill him or mutlite him at all. leave him in a room 6 foot by 6 foot by 6 foot in complet darkness for the rest of his life with no comminaction with one piece of bread and one glass of water a day. and dont let him see the person giving the food. If he wasnt insane when he commited the crime, he soon will be and if he was mentaly ill, well, no real change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agen Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Ok, I haven't read all of this. I think this is quite simple - Maybe 1-5% of criminals have a mental disorder, doing something bad is usually down to choice, we all have free will, I've done some crap things, I am not going to go and say it's because of my mental health . If laws were so slack then everyone would claim mental illness and get back into society once they're 'cured' to probably resume their criminal life. Also, it's perfectly natural for a mother to go and seek revenge... She's not nuts, most people would.... Killing because your a sick criminal or killing because a sicko killed your daughter......hmmmmmm. Us humans act on impressions of what's happening and what's happened around us and our own mentality. You have no control over what's happening around you, and you have no control over your own mentality. Choice, as you know it, does not exist. I'm sorry but that's pure BS. I can control what's happening with a lot of things, I could type sdogjsd;ls, punch the wall, smash the window, kill myself. I chosoe that. We get impressions of everything, of course if you;re mentally ill it's not right but your choices and what you take from those choices made define your personality etc. It is crazy to suggest choice doesn't exist (or as we know it). Even if it was fate, fate is what is destined from our choices that we will make. The choices are set. If you get robbed, you get angry, this effects your mentallity... If you stab some and see they're in pain, you wouldn't like it if it happened to you and usually won't do it again unless you think it's justified, also effects mental state. People are able to control these things, even if they want to kill. I've came close to punching people but didn't. These people who kill/rape don't care or think they'll get away with what they're doing... they're tempted and let the control go. Going into prison will usually make them care if they don't. Do not confuse control with mental illness, it all depends on how much something means to a person, they could have chose the other way. Like I said, thinking you'll get away also has a big effect. I'm tired so some of this will be a bit of rabble, pick me up on anything and i'll fix it or take it back *yawns* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leXX Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Let's get deep here. The meaning of life. Survival of the species. Our very instinct is to have children, then protect them. We only differ from animals because of laws and consequences. If someone or something threatens my children, I will protect them with my life. If they were killed as a consequence of another person’s actions, it is an instinct to instantly remove that threat to prevent it happening to any more of my children. We only try to suppress this instinct because of fear of consequence. In most cases, your instinct will be too overwhelming to suppress. Other people also want to remove that threat. Knowing that there is someone out there who is a threat to his or her children or future children, and not remove that threat is something that instinct will not allow. This is why we instantly feel discust and hate when we see a child who has been killed. Instinct is not a mental disorder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 I think the biggest problem with your arguments Breton, is the our current knowledge of psychology and how the human mind works is still so basic that it's not so simple to just know they have a mental disorder and treat it. We dont know HOW to fix the mind of someone who is a murderer or a rapist. And therefore simply saying we will reform them just doesn't work. We CANT until we understand the human mind a LOT more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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