kipperthefrog Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Personaly i think Abortion is wrong True it IS a woman's right to choose what happens to her body, but it is her body untill you get down to the egg cell. ...then it is the BABY's body... then there is the issue about the kid's future! what if he was going to cur a sickness or make a pill that helps people loose wieght or something. you never know what HIS future will be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Disagreed. A fetus should not be considered human until it has gained a certain level of conciousness/awareness which separates humans from other animals. This actually happens some time after birth, but for obvious reasons it should be considered human at birth (people get emotionally attached to it, it is no longer a part of the mother, etc.). Until birth, it should be considered a part of the mother. The fact that the fetus has the potential of becoming a human doesn't matter. Sperm cells has the same potential, yet we kill thousands of those every second. then there is the issue about the kid's future! what if he was going to cur a sickness or make a pill that helps people loose wieght or something. you never know what HIS future will be... ...or he might end up as a cruel dictator who nukes the whole world and ensures the end of humanity. That argument just won't do, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipperthefrog Posted May 18, 2004 Author Share Posted May 18, 2004 Disagreed. A fetus should not be considered human until it has gained a certain level of conciousness/awareness which separates humans from other animals. This actually happens some time after birth, but for obvious reasons it should be considered human at birth (people get emotionally attached to it, it is no longer a part of the mother, etc.). Until birth, it should be considered a part of the mother the sperm is DIFFERENT from a whole new baby! ...or he might end up as a cruel dictator who nukes the whole world and ensures the end of humanity. That argument just won't do, sorry. how many cruel dictarors we had? how many great people we had? the good outweighs the bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 the sperm is DIFFERENT from a whole new baby! I don't see why, both of them can't think on thier own nor can they live indepently. how many cruel dictarors we had? how many great people we had? the good outweighs the bad! You're telling me we have more good honest people than we do have rapists, thiefs, murderers, and liars? You're comparing a broad group(great people) vs a relatively narrow group(dictators). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wassup Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Though personally I don't advocate the practice of aboration, I agree with Breton, the fetus is not yet classified as "living" or born yet, according to the standards that have been established into our society today. Also, it is the environment and experiences that a human being develops and grows through after birth that shape who they will be and what they will be able to do. Pre-destination is an illogical and, so far, unproven theory that is inconsistent with the realities of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 It might be the most debated thing since slavery (at least in some coutries, in a lot of countries it isn't controversial and is just accepted, but then they don't have a lot of religious nutters:D ), but i doubt it will be solved as easily (ie, a big war). It largely comes down to a matter of opinion (and maybe belief) that can't really be proved in any way. So people will always argue about it. What i do think is that it would be a lot better if it wasn't such an emotive issue and could be talked about in a rational way, rather than just being a big flash point that means common sense gets drowned out. I'm generally pro-choice, but with the odd reservation. A few random thoughts: * A lot of the time (in religious circles at least) it gets linked with contraception (which religions also don't like). It shouldn't be. I definately don't consider a sperm or an egg on it's own to have a "soul". 100s of sperm and eggs dis naturally in people every day, i don't believe preventing conception is a sin, infact i happen to think that (given the aids situation in africa) the continued insistance that contraception is a sin by the pope (against the views of a comission the church set up) is possibly the most evil and deadly decision a muman has ever made. ahem... anyway... * I'd like to see a much more logical approach taken to abortion. I don't think it should be used casually, but i don't think it should be made shameful either. In the UK you are supposed to get 2 doctor's consent, but this is either given (cos they support abortion) or not (cos they don't), the actual situation has littlebearing on it. * I'd define an embryo as becoming "human" at 14 weeks. I'd say that before this time abortions should be available with some limited checks and advice, but basically only considering the mother. * After this time there should be much more stringent checks, which involve both the mother and baby, with permission only usually being given in cases involving rape, deformation (serious, defined), risk to the mother and so on. * At the moment it seems to me the issue has become so emotive tht there is one camp that wants abortion for anyone, anytime and another that wants it to never, ever be considered, no matter the situation. Both are wrong IMHO. * Morning after pills = great idea. * I've never understood those willing to kill or hurt or shame those who have abortions. This is insane and makes no sense form any standpoint (legal, moral, logical, medical or religious). * Before abortions were invented or legalised, it still happened all the time and has since time began.... (taking herbs, back street abortions etc..) If it is banned then it will just go underground, cause more suffering and unwanted children. * Glad i'm not a girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipperthefrog Posted May 18, 2004 Author Share Posted May 18, 2004 Your just killing children for conveinience! thats ALL there is to it! "it's gotta be CONVEINIANT!" "it's gotta be what I choose!" there are a lot of full babies aborted! with fingernails too! there were "partial Birth abortions!" THOSE babies are A LOT MORE Th AN A SPERM ON AN EGG! A LOT MORE THAN A BLOB OF TISSUE! I have read that a lot of people who have abortions regreted it too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Originally posted by kipperthefrog the sperm is DIFFERENT from a whole new baby! Of course it is! But how is this relevant to the discussion? You shouldn't compare a fetus to a born baby. And in any case, how is difference a valid argument? You'll have to explain which differences you are talking about and explain why these differences make a fetus less valid to exterminate than, let's say, a pig. Your just killing children for conveinience! thats ALL there is to it! "it's gotta be CONVEINIANT!" "it's gotta be what I choose!" I don't really understand your point. No offense, but would you care to explain it further? As for reasons to have an abortion, they can be many. But all abortions are to prevent a baby from being born. This is usually because the mother does not wish to have a baby, at least not at that time. The mother would often be incapable of giving the child the good adolecense it deserves, and thus wishes to wait until she can. Having a baby is often also very harsh upon the mother, if she's young she'll have to quit school and stay home, and pretty much get her future ruined. Alright, kipper, what would you prefer? A girl who gets a child when she's 16 because she wasn't allowed to have an abortion, quits school and becomes severly poor and dependant on social service (and burdening society), or the same girl who gets an abortion, studies to become a doctor, marries a good man and gets seven kids? there are a lot of full babies aborted! with fingernails too! Oh NO!! What have we DONE?! Really though, you should explain why the precense of fingernails makes it less morally acceptable to exterminate it. And I'd also like to add that the large majority of abortions are done before the 10th week, pretty much all before the 15th week. Fingernails will grow at a fetus after the 20th week. there were "partial Birth abortions!" THOSE babies are A LOT MORE ThAN A SPERM ON AN EGG! A LOT MORE THAN A BLOB OF TISSUE! A nearly born fetus is quite different from a sperm cell or egg cell or a blastocyst, true. But you'll still have to explain which of these differences that makes partial birth abortions morally unacceptable. Also, abortions in the third semestre are extremely rare unless a normal birth would endanger the life of the mother (and usually the child itself as well). I have read that a lot of people who have abortions regreted it too! No doubt. But I would assert that this is much thanks to anti-abortionists feeding them with invalid, usually religious, arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipperthefrog Posted May 18, 2004 Author Share Posted May 18, 2004 Of course it is! But how is this relevant to the discussion? im talking a whole baby that ids still in a womb. Alright, kipper, what would you prefer? A girl who gets a child when she's 16 because she wasn't allowed to have an abortion, quits school and becomes severly poor and dependant on social service (and burdening society), or the same girl who gets an abortion, studies to become a doctor, marries a good man and gets seven kids? maybi she could give it up for adoption! Oh NO!! What have we DONE?! Really though, you should explain why the precense of fingernails makes it less morally acceptable to exterminate it. the fingernails are not the point! the point is how well developed they are! the are human beings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Originally posted by kipperthefrog maybi she could give it up for adoption! She would still hafta miss alot of school and probably still be shoolasitcally screwed over. Anyways, my opinion is abortions are okay in certain circumstances: If it would danger the health of the mother, child or both; If it was caused by a rape; If the mother is still in school. Thats just me though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 im talking a whole baby that ids still in a womb. Almost all abortions are done a long long time before the baby is developed. maybi she could give it up for adoption! I agree with that too, although if the person would probably die if she had the baby, then it's kinda moot. the fingernails are not the point! the point is how well developed they are! the are human beings! Again, abortion is rarely done when the baby is developed. It mostly happens when the baby is 5-15 weeks old, meaning that they are very undeveloped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wassup Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Originally posted by kipperthefrog im talking a whole baby that ids still in a womb. the fingernails are not the point! the point is how well developed they are! the are human beings! No, they are defined as a fetus. They have the potential to become a human, however are not yet a living, breathing homo sapiens, and thus it is questionable what sort of rights they have in comparison to living humans. Where is the line defining what is life and what is just a collection of cells? Why shouldn't the sperm or ovum cell be classified as a fetus or human, since they too have the potential to become a human being within this world? Without the proper scientific research to answer these questions and provide a clear and reasonable definition of life, it is irrational and premature to define what is against the law and what isn't with abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Jones Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Originally posted by kipperthefrog maybi she could give it up for adoption! yeah, that's what you would do, right? being pregnant for nine month become your baby and give it away. heck. why not sell it and make some profit?? tse. perhabs it's not that easy. did you ever thought about how hard it is for a woman to decide against a baby just because she hasnt finished education or just cannot "afford" it or another one? you guys seem to think it's all like "hey damn kid. go away!" but it is not. it one of the worst decisions you have to make. from the mothers and the fathers point of view. also i would agree that aborting is not something for "fun". there are more than enough possibilities to prevent pregnancy. unluckily there can "accidents" happen. not to mention rape and abuse and whatnot. but noone has the right to decide for a woman if she "wants" to get a baby or not. also if not, it's better she goes the "healthy" medical way instead of taking a hot shower and jump of the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapNColostomy Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Personally, I don't think nearly enough people are being aborted. The world's overpopulated with the disease of humanity as it is. I wonder how many pro-lifers would keep that stance if their wife/girlfriend/mother/sister etc..was gang raped by a multi-racial gang of inner city thugs and rendered pregnant? "Not every ejaculation deserves a name"-George Carlin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Originally posted by CapNColostomy "Not every ejaculation deserves a name"-George Carlin. nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 I am pro-choice in most circumstances. I think as long as the pregnancy is still in the early enough stages so that the abortion would not require any actual surgery is completely acceptable, because at that point the fetus typically doesn't even have a nervous system yet, so isn't even human. I also agree that instances that endanger the life of the mother, or if the mother was raped, deffinately constitute the option of having an abortion. Furthermore, as many people have said, making abortion illegal will actually make MORE problems, because women who decide that they flat out CANNOT have this baby will take their problem to the back alleys where they're just as likely to end up dead as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid Bremen Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Originally posted by ET Warrior I am pro-choice in most circumstances. I think as long as the pregnancy is still in the early enough stages so that the abortion would not require any actual surgery is completely acceptable, because at that point the fetus typically doesn't even have a nervous system yet, so isn't even human. I also agree that instances that endanger the life of the mother, or if the mother was raped, deffinately constitute the option of having an abortion. Furthermore, as many people have said, making abortion illegal will actually make MORE problems, because women who decide that they flat out CANNOT have this baby will take their problem to the back alleys where they're just as likely to end up dead as well. I can't agree with you more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Originally posted by kipperthefrog how many cruel dictarors we had? how many great people we had? You don't want to know. That knowledge would spoil your argument. Now, I am pro-choice, and anti-abortion. Why? How can I be both? Actually that's a quite simple issue: It needs to be available to everyone without any special authorization, because it is obviously acceptable in some cases (rape, teen pregnancy, extreme poverty, etc), and to introduce a comittie to determine who got to get abortions and who were to be denied would create two problems: 1) The rich an powerful would find ways to tweak such a comittie, meaning that only those who can't afford a good lawyer/don't know someone at the board will be affected. 2) It is extremely disgraceful to have to argue with some airhead paper pusher over whether or not your situation is bad enough for you to get welfare, abortion, whatever. Consider the situation in some 3rd world countries where whoring is a capital offence: Not only do rapists walk free, their victims are punished as well. A similiar situation would occur if you ruled that only rape victims could have abortions. But I don't think that abortion is something that should be encouraged, because it has a high emotional cost. Which basically also means that there is no major problem with legalizing it: Nobody wants to have an abortion. But some people are in a situation where they need one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dbl90 Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Religion has a great effect on politics because it baisicly controls many parts of peoples' beliefs. My religous belief is that somthing does not have a soul before it takes its first breath. The point of overpopulation is only partialy relevant. There are plenty of birth control methods other than abortion, and the people who are having 8-9 kids in the third world arn't going to shell out the cash for an abortion. Yesterday I was talking to a friend of mine and he raised a point on how many geniuses, doctors, world champions we are killing with abortions. Indeed it is true, many great people in the world are maybe 7th or 8th child. Paul Morphy, arguably the best chess player of all time, was very far down in the order of his large amount of brothers. Then again think how many murderes, sociopaths, pedophiles we are killing. And the truth is the people who are most likely to have an abortion are not ready to raise a child who will suceed. Many children are born to abusive, malnourished families. The success of one's parents often determines the success of their children because of vast recrouces they have to teach their children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt-Man Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 franbkly in my opinion abortion is wrong, period becuase hey, you shoe to have sex, or you chose to go home late and get raped, or whatever, its all about desicision, and if you don't want to baby, give it up for adoption, yeah, thats my two cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted June 25, 2004 Share Posted June 25, 2004 Originally posted by Curt-Man or you chose to go home late and get raped, or whatever, .... Um, yeah. I hope everybody else is thinking what I'm thinking. People don't get raped when it's late..they can get raped anywhere. In the daylight, in the night, at a bar, even at your house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapNColostomy Posted June 25, 2004 Share Posted June 25, 2004 Originally posted by Curt-Man franbkly in my opinion abortion is wrong, period becuase hey, you shoe to have sex, or you chose to go home late and get raped, or whatever, its all about desicision, and if you don't want to baby, give it up for adoption, yeah, thats my two cents Wow! Now we get to choose whether or not to get raped? I'll be over at 11 Curt-Man, and I know you'll make the right choice. That late enough for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted June 25, 2004 Share Posted June 25, 2004 Originally posted by Curt-Man and if you don't want to baby, give it up for adoption, And what about the instances where the mother's life is in danger? They're both going to die if nothing is done. And I'm with everyone that's impressed that we get to choose whether or not to get raped these days. I thought it was forced upon you. WHEW, I'll feel alot better sleeping at night, knowing my girlfriend can only get raped if she chooses to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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