KotOR

[Astrotoy7]

Originally posted by Jan Gaarni

....Yes, several times.

And none of those you mention are considered official canon by the way, just official.

 

Jan, can you provide a linky to any source/document of LFLs canon listings..it'd be an interesting read. and I hope you dont mean those timelines that came at the start of the NJO books...

 

thx

 

mtfbwya

[Jan Gaarni]

Well, I don't know of any solid print online where you can read it, but you can if you pick up different interviews of the guys that are in charge.

 

* First Issue of Star Wars Insider, which will resite what I posted in the last quote

* Star Wars Insider #68, where Dorling Kindersley (DK) Star Wars Books was canonized (see quote 1)

* It was also confirmed on the StarWars.Com website (see quote 2)

 

Quote 1:

"The first two Incredible Cross-Sections books were conceived to explore bold new territory in the Star Wars universe, taking a rare look inside more vehicles and vessels than we had ever seen before, and doing in in unprecidented detail. These books would represent the most thorough research ever done on these vehicles and would receive Lucasfilm's formal imprimatur as canon. These volumes would henceforth be sent out to licensees as reference guides and would become useful manuals for Industrial Light & Magic, where some of the artwork influenced details in Episodes I and II."

 

Quote 2:

Q: Do you use any of the Star Wars books and guides when working on your designs? Do you look at the "Expanded Universe" at all?

 

A: As designers we look at all kinds of stuff for inspiration and we have a crack research staff to help us with that. The Star Wars books serve as a starting point and guide for certain types of questions that arise in respect to certain cultures or technologies that have already been established in the movies. The Star Wars Chronicles book is our bible, the Incredible Cross-Section books provide a great starting point when we're adding to existing locations. We usually don't refer to the Expanded Universe materials specifically unless our research team finds something that directly corresponds to our assignment.

 

 

There, hope that settles your curiousity.

It's 3 am, I'm going to bed.

[Codja X]

it doesn't really matter whether KOTOR is canon or not - it's set 4000 years before the films, it doesn't contradict anything in the Tales of the Jedi comic books and it is highly unlikely that George Lucas will do anything set in this era.

 

It doesn't interfere with an other storylines and is not likely to be affected by anything in the future, so we should just consider it a (very) welcome addition to the Star Wars universe - canon or not.

[fuzzyfreaker]

wow, that was, moving

[Master_Keralys]

Okay, some serious clarification here:

 

When I said "canon" the word I should have used was official. The true Canon in SW is limited to the movies alone. However, LFL (LucasFilm Licensing, for the non-initiates out there) has repeatedly defined other groups as "Official". The distinction is critical: canon is what George Lucas says, period, end of story. Moreover, this is divided into levels by most analysts. For example, the Special Editions of the OT override the Original Editions, where they have minor changes or conflicts, etc. These, in turn, override novelisations, radio dramas, and that sort of thing based on the OT. In another example, the Ep. 2 DVD (with minor changes and additions) overrides the theatrical version. Now, this is all speaking about strictly canon material.

 

Official is a totally different ballgame. This is everything that is considered consistent with itself and in line with the main Star Wars story that Lucas Licensing is telling. This is where officialdom is determined - by the folks at Lucas Licensing, often with the help of some determined fans (note: Nathan Butler). The real question here, then, is whether or not KotOR is official. Under our operating definitions of canon, it certainly is not canon (that has been repeatedly established already). However, it is considered official and (with KotOR II) is actually drastically rewriting our understanding of the official story of the Old Republic era.

 

Separate (and below, in the hierarchy of "officialness") than canon, or officiality (which is of course below canon) is the apocrypha: all stories of any medium that conflict with official or canon stories.

 

You want a more detailed discussion than what I just gave you, go check out Nathan Butler's very detailed explanation in his Star Wars Timeline Gold or his ChronoRadio episode on it.

 

But as another note: canon is sometimes used to refer to all official and canon (both terms here as defined before) material within the SW universe. Which is how I used it when I opened the thread. Now, given this thesis I just wrote, there shouldn't be a whole lot more argument...

 

I hope.

[Astrotoy7]

Ok....since 'films and films alone' are absolute canon, does that mean the "Star Wars Holiday Special" is absolute canon....

 

here is another type of can(n)on....

 

mtfbwya

[Jan Gaarni]

No, Star Wars Holiday Special is not canon.

 

As much as GL would have all copies destroyed, they are still part of the official Star Wars nonetheless.

[Astrotoy7]

Originally posted by Jan Gaarni

No, Star Wars Holiday Special is not canon.

 

As much as GL would have all copies destroyed, they are still part of the official Star Wars nonetheless.

 

SWHS isnt all bad, you got to see Chewies family, and Boba Fett too(in the accompanying cartoon)

 

mtfbwya

[Master_Keralys]

Originally posted by Astrotoy7

SWHS isnt all bad, you got to see Chewies family, and Boba Fett too(in the accompanying cartoon)

 

mtfbwya

Umm, Astro... those things you're calling good are what others call the main flaws. Sure, those might be considered "bonuses" in terms of "cool, now we know" - but among other things, the whole thing was just flat out scary...

[Jedi Malastar]

KOTOR is my second faviorite xbox game, but its actaully wrong. According to KOTOR Exar Kun died 50 years ago from then, and he did't die till 3996 BBY, 4 years after kotor. In KOTOR 2 the sith lords are in charge and you are the last jedi. But the sith never actually took control, other than the empire, but I don't think of any star wars things to not be canon. So I just think of Kotor approxamatly 4000 years BBY, and in kotor 2 I'm sure something will clear it up, because I think it takes place on the planet that starts the sith war back then.

[Master_Keralys]

Actually, that information is slightly incorrect. While the game's opening scroll indicates that the game is set 4.000 years before the Rise of the Empire, that is clearly a general figure. Quite simply, the rise of the Empire would actually put the game at 4,022 years BBY... and that definitely wouldn't make sense, because you're correcting in stating that Kun's final defeat was 3,996 BBY.

 

However, in-game references made by the characters would suggest that the game actually takes place about 40 years after the Exar Kun war (talk to Jolee Bindo for clarification), setting it at 3,956 BBY, which is now the commonly accepted date for its occurence. While the Sith were repeatedly defeated, nothing says that there wasn't a point when the events of KotOR happened. From an "historical" perspective, one could say the records of such events are only now being uncovered by archaeologists/Jedi loremasters (such as Tionne).

 

Now, as far as the Sith actually being, as you put it, in "control," the early reports of KotOR 2 don't actually have them in control. Rather, the Republic has disbanded the Jedi Order because of the havoc the Jedi caused in going to war against the Sith - becoming Sith themselves, completely upsetting the galaxy repeatedly for over forty-five years (from the start of the Exar Kun war to the conclusion of the Revan/Malak war). The Republic's irritation is actually understandable, and there are some intriguing parallels between the actions apparently taken by a truly benevolent but frightened Republic in the KotOR era and a benevolent Republic controlled by an exceedingly malevolent dictator (Sith Lord) some four millennia later. Thus, the Sith Assassins are operating secretly, trying to eliminate the Jedi entirely, and they are not operating with Republic sanction, certainly.

 

Finally, in KotOR 2, the player character will not actually be the last Jedi. It seems quite probable that (depending on what the character decides happened at the end of KotOR 1) you will actually be able to meet with Revan and/or Bastila and others... Rather, the reality is that the character is the last Jedi in Republic space; the rest have all fled to the uncharted regions of the galaxy until the Republic is ready and/or willing to allow for their return.

[wassup]

Originally posted by Master_Keralys

Finally, in KotOR 2, the player character will not actually be the last Jedi. It seems quite probable that (depending on what the character decides happened at the end of KotOR 1) you will actually be able to meet with Revan and/or Bastila and others... Rather, the reality is that the character is the last Jedi in Republic space; the rest have all fled to the uncharted regions of the galaxy until the Republic is ready and/or willing to allow for their return.

 

And thus, the Sith Lords that KOTOR 2 mentions will probably be reigning in large parts of the areas where the Jedi have fled to, ie. uncharted territories (from the Republic's POV) that are controlled by the Sith Empire. Think of the Jedi as refugees fleeing their place of origin (where they are not accepted very warmly anymore), but instead fleeing to a place where they are not only not accepted, but very much hated.

[Master_Keralys]

Originally posted by Wassup

And thus, the Sith Lords that KOTOR 2 mentions will probably be reigning in large parts of the areas where the Jedi have fled to, ie. uncharted territories (from the Republic's POV) that are controlled by the Sith Empire. Think of the Jedi as refugees fleeing their place of origin (where they are not accepted very warmly anymore), but instead fleeing to a place where they are not only not accepted, but very much hated.

A good point, there. My only comment was that the Sith weren't in control of the Republic, at least... not yet Not till I take over! But you're correct in every way in stating that most of the Jedi will be in hiding - again, a situation remarkably similar to that engineered by Palpatine four millennia later. Likely a good portion of your quest in KotOR 2 will be reuniting the Jedi (if you're on the light) and killing the rest of them (if you're dark)... Regardless, though, the amount this will change people's perspectives on the history of the Old Republic is quite fascinating to me. Nobody's ever had this huge of a change in the history before. But every official source I've seen indicates that becase of its place in history and the fact that it conflicts with no other source material (a very nice job of research on the part of its creators, that indicates), KotOR I, II, and maybe someday III (though LA just ... er ... released the early dev team for 3) will all be official.

[Jedi Malastar]

If you put it that way I guess that clears kotor up. But the sith in kotor 2 will have much to do with the republic, and are trying to destroy the republic. Also you start on the planet Onderon, where the sith war pretty much starts. And the inhabitants are still fighting there. But obviously this is after Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma are dead, so after they attacked the jedi capital as Ossus. Until the big thought bomb thing nothing really bad happened to the republic other than some people took over the Kanz sector. Which must be where events in Kotor 2 might take place. But the thing about the sith killing almost all of the jedi still doesnt really fit in.

[Master_Keralys]

Well, if you really follow your argument to its logical conclusion, then the Exar Kun war itself didn't make any sense before its publication, because we'd never heard of it. Sure, the Sith kept coming back over and over again, concluding the massive army strategy at what would later come to be called the Valley of the Jedi on Ruusan. But no one knew about that until a while after the Exar Kun war's story had been told. So, following the argument that because we've never known about this before negates its validity would negate the thought bomb/clash of armies scenario because we'd never heard of it and assumed that the Sith just went into hiding after Exar Kun.

 

The game's starting on Onderon is likely because the game has a much darker focus: the whole game will really be about the dark side and its influence even on the Jedi. The moon itself is corrupted by the dark side for millennia after Kun and Qel-droma's deaths, so that's probably one of the reasons it was chosen. As far as the Sith killing most of the Jedi thing goes, there's actual little evidence that the Sith have killed most of the Jedi. They're not dead, they're in hiding. Sure, many are dead, but then forty years of war will do that. But when the game stuff talks about the player character being the "last" Jedi, information more recently available indicates that the character is only the last Jedi in Republic space: the others are alive, but scattered and in hiding. (Of course, this could be totally wrong, we'll see on December 29).

 

I wouldn't count on KotOR 2 having anything to do with the relatively small happenings in the Kanz sector; the whole saga is blazing new ground and going in new directions. Besides, Kanz was a lot more than 5 years after the events of KotOR 1. And we know that KOTOR 2 will be around 5 years after KOTOR, so that rules out Kanz anyway. I'd just expect the series to continue to redefine our perception of Old Republic history much as the New Jedi Order series redefined our perception of New Republic history.

[fuzzyfreaker]

wow, wayyy too many long posts, too lazy to read them. KOTOR II IN DECEMBER!!!

[RebelScum!]

Fuzzy...you reminded me of the top three games i can't wait to get

 

1. KOTOR II

2. HALO

3. SWbattlefront (havent got it just yet)

[90SK]

From what I've heard from Trailers/Interviews it sounds like Obsidian has integrated KotOR II's plot into the SW universe fairly smoothely. I am looking forward to seeing just how they pulled it off, but I am confident that there will be no "problems". In fact, the only EU error I have seen in the KotOR series was the whole "Darth" thing, and how that doesnt come on till 3000 years later, but meh. Someone will probably patch that up later

[Kain]

Meh I can wait for KotOR 2...

 

But not knowing anything about the next Legacy of Kain game is DRIVING ME MAD!! MAD I TELLS YOU!!! MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111

[Master_Keralys]

Calm down Kain... it's okay.

 

We real SW fanboys, though, could do without Legacy of Kain, just not without KotOR II.

 

Indeed, they have done an excellent job of integrating with extant EU. The Darth thing will probably be explained by saying that the guys who decide to use it ~ 3000 years later just picked it up from old Sith records they found or something like that. It's standard LA operating procedure to catch and "fix" bugs like that with relative ease.

 

New note: just over two months to go... *starts countdown clock*

[Lord Siraious]

I was always under the impression that the darth, and dark lord titles came directly from the primative Sith's culture.

[*Yoinked*]

Originally posted by fuzzyfreaker

norway's better[ /B]

Agreed...

 

Also what does mtfbwu mean, cause I do not know... -Edit- Thank you very much...

 

But back on topic, I think, besides the Darth thing, KotOR is completely canon. It is the best Star Wars game so far ('sides Battlefront, it rocks) and the replayability level and modding possibilities make it pwn all!

 

-Adam G.

[Master_Keralys]

No, the "Darth" designation was (prior to this point) supposed to have arisen about 1000 years before the movies, when the great battle on Ruusan (read: Valley of the Jedi) took place, and only one Sith Lord survived, who then created the tradition of only two Sith at a time. He took the title, "Darth," combining "Dark" and "Sith." The title Dark Lord was first taken not from the Sith culture itself but by fallen Jedi who fled to Onderon and conquered Sith society.

[Astrotoy7]

Originally posted by Master_Keralys

No, the "Darth" designation was (prior to this point) supposed to have arisen about 1000 years before the movies, when the great battle on Ruusan (read: Valley of the Jedi) took place, and only one Sith Lord survived, who then created the tradition of only two Sith at a time. He took the title, "Darth," combining "Dark" and "Sith." The title Dark Lord was first taken not from the Sith culture itself but by fallen Jedi who fled to Onderon and conquered Sith society.

 

hmm...interesting, is that from the CUSWE ?? I always thought Darth was just an abbreviation of DARk lord of the siTH

 

mtfbwya

[Master_Keralys]

Also what does mtfbwu mean, cause I do not know...

May The Force Be With You Always.

hmm...interesting, is that from the CUSWE ?? I always thought Darth was just an abbreviation of DARk lord of the siTH

Uh, that's what it says, I think. "DARk" and "Sith," with "Lord of" implied in between. And no, it's not from the CUSWE, unless you count me as a CUSWE. That was off the top of my head. Should be enough to scare all you other wannabe fanboys into bowing down in submission to my mastery...