El Sitherino Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 you are very well deserving of such a compliment, It is nice to have someone to debate with that won't resort to calling you names or insulting you. For this I give you my thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaebginn Posted August 2, 2004 Author Share Posted August 2, 2004 sounds good. its also good to have a good debate and while we are on opposing sides, you all are very respectful and mature. this is a real good debate, too. I believe the ball's is your court now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDurp Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 i still dont understand why being gay is a sin, it seems to me that they should all have the same opportunity to go to heaven as the next person, but you seem to take the bible so seriously, that yuo wont let them. i know a few gay people, and three of them are good christians, i know you will say that they will go to hell no matter what. but they have led good lives, and i think that is what should dictate who should go to heaven, people aren't sinful because they are gay, they are sinful because they do bad things in their life. gays have donec absolutely nothing wrong. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by yaebginn >gays dont go to hell for being gay, they go for being alive. so would I, if I hadnt accepted the lord. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- what? whoever said they dont accept the lord? christianity is not about shunning people who are different from yourself, its about accepting people and leading a good life, that was the problem with the crusades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaebginn Posted August 2, 2004 Author Share Posted August 2, 2004 we arent shunning them, they are shunning thy will pay for it. U cant be a gay christian. Thats like me being a Islamist Christian. One is contradictary of the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDurp Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 no its not, being an islamic christian means you have actual contradictory beliefs. being gay in absolutely no way contradicts christianity. it just so happens that the medieval christians declared it to be a sin because they were threatened by how different homosexuals were. for all we know, jesus could have been gay, its never been proven that he wasn't. Back to my original question. Don't you think people should initially have the same opportunity to get into heaven, regardless of sexual preference, race, or culture? If no, then why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Demon44 Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I don't think that being homosexual is an instant trip to hell. It is a sin and can be asked for forgiveness just like all other sins. There is not greater or lesser sin, all of it is against God. Those are my beleifs on the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDurp Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 i dont think homosexuality should have to be forgiven to go to heaven. once again, islam is neither for nor against homosexuality, neither is buddhism, hindi, or judaism. it seems christianity and catholicism is alone on their views, and every religion has the same chance of being right, you do the math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanLingo Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 First, the bible and religion are a crock to some of you. Now, you're arguing that homosexuality is not a sin? Why would you care, if you don't believe anything the bible says anyway?! To answer your questions, SkinWalker: I'm not sure what the exact word count limit is, but I have been cut short of it several times. It may be only on the PMs. I'll get back to you on that. As far as calling you racist, you disdainfully referred to boranchistanger as being a "member of the white middle-class". If you are not racist, please forgive me. You're a Socialist. DarthSurp -- Jesus was NOT gay, lol. He was abstinent. And don't give me the line about "He was human, he had thoughts about sex", because Jesus had no impure thoughts. The thought alone is sin, and he was sinless. A simple deduction. To shed some light on homosexuality and the bible: Leviticus 20:13 -- If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. The chapter also mentions sleeping with in-laws, bestiality, and inbreeding. I Corinthians 6:9-10 -- Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Abusers with mankind refers to homosexuality. Also, the word effeminate literally means "womanish", "prissy", and "sissified", according to Webster. Basically, even acting like a woman is not right in God's sight. Romans 1:27 -- 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was met. Romans 1:32 -- Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Once again, God is very forceful about the consequences for abusing your tools. Notice that the bible never claims hatred or animosity toward the people themselves, but that God will preserve a very harsh judgement for homosexuals (and any other sex abusers, for that matter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by VanLingo As far as calling you racist, you disdainfully referred to boranchistanger as being a "member of the white middle-class". If you are not racist, please forgive me. You're a Socialist. ... dude, you're just searching for reasons to discredit skinwalker and that is by far the most idiotic thing I could ever hear someone say on here. Saying someone is part of the white middle class is not a derogatory term, it's just a classification. I'm tired of your bashing of peoples character. now, since you are so well learned in the bible perhaps you can answer my question. Is anyone going to help me in why christians find it okay to belittle gays rights but yet they don't find it a big need to make oral sex illegal, it's just as sinful and held on the same grounds as sodomy and homosexuality in the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanLingo Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Skin holds himself in higher regard than other people. That is to his own discredit. All I'm doing is pointing the finger, which is what all of these debates turn into. To answer your question about oral sex: there is nothing wrong with oral sex -- within the bonds of marriage. It's when you engage with someone outside of marriage that it becomes either fornication or adultery. And there is no such thing as "Gay Rights". Gays have the same rights as anyone else...within reason. A homo can get married if he/she wants to -- to a member of the opposite sex. A homo can get the same jobs as anyone else, can use the same restrooms as anyone else, can vote like anyone else, and can speak their mind like anyone else. But just because a man likes other men doesn't mean he gets special recognition. Give me one good reason that two men can't love each other without getting married? If they want to ignore the bible's principles regarding sexual purity, why would they care about God's institution of marriage? They want to revolutionize the country -- they can do without our laws and standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 marriage isn't a christian invention. also marriage has beneifts such as joint tax filing, and lower insurance rates, etc. where as a basic civil union does not give you those rights. and according to the bible oral sex at any time is wrong, just like sodomy. because it's against gods design. and not being able to marry someone of the opposite sex isn't exactly giving someone full rights, to have equal rights means everyone has the same exact rights. you can't just pick and choose. and there is nothing that skinwalker has said or done that even suggests he holds himself higher than others, in fact I think it is you who feels high and mighty about yourself. :edit: pardon my idiocy in my ad hominem opening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanLingo Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I don't hold myself too high above others, although I do admit that I don't care much for people who want to tell me the bible or the Constitution but can't master the English language. Here, I'll help you: Marriage isn't a Christian invention, you narrow-minded sap. Also, marriage has beneifts such as joint tax filing and lower insurance rates, etc, whereas a basic civil union does not give you those rights. And according to the bible, oral sex at any time is wrong, just like sodomy. Because it's against God's design. And not being able to marry someone of the opposite sex isn't exactly giving someone full rights. To have equal rights means that everyone has the same exact rights. You can't just pick and choose. And there is nothing that SkinWalker has said or done that even suggests he holds himself higher than others. In fact, I think it is you who feels high and mighty about yourself. There -- I even corrected the grammar on that nifty little flame. Now, to counter your argument -- do you have any scripture that mentions oral sex being wrong? As long as it is a satisfaction between you and your life partner, there's nothing wrong with it. Once you bring pornography or other people into the picture, it's a whole different story. But oral sex, candles, aphrodisiacs, foreplay, etc... it's all a part of the union. To each his own. And the same with homos -- to each his/her own. They have every right to do what they want sexually. But they are obligated to leave God and His plan for America out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynk Former Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 there's a problem with priest molesting children in many parts of the world. do you think that's a right thing to be doing VanLingo? Your beliefs IMO are ****ed up but they are your beliefs no matter how bad it seems to me, so in turn, accept other peoples beliefs. I know this isn't my forum to moderate but clean it up guys or I'll make sure someone goes down. You have a right to your own opinion but keep it clean and free of name calling. Attack the "issue" not the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by DarthDurp once again, islam is neither for nor against homosexuality, Actually, Islam is very much against homosexuality. In the Qur'an (chap. 26), there is a passage that reads, ""Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom God has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing...!" Originally posted by DarthDurp neither is buddhism, The third precept of Theravada Buddhism states, "I undertake the rule of training not to go the wrong way for sexual pleasure." While this doesn't implicitly mention homosexuality, Buddhist commentators have traditionally held that sexual misconduct includes it. Originally posted by DarthDurp hindi, A more ambiguous religion with regard to homosexuality, but the vedas say 'do not cut off the thread of offspring' and the dharmasastras say an 'unnatural act' between two men is a sin that causes the loss of caste. However, Vishnu and Shiva (both male gods) coupled to create Ayappa after Vishnu took the female form of Mohini. Originally posted by DarthDurp or judaism. The same Leviticus (chap. 18 & 20) and Deuteronomy (chap. 23?) books that cover christianity work for judaism. The Pentateuch, or the first five books of the bible, is the Torah. Originally posted by DarthDurp it seems christianity and catholicism is alone on their views, As you can see, they aren't alone (even though catholicism is a subset of christianity). But homosexuality exists in all cultures and throughout the animal kingdom. Cultural taboos that exist are likely due to the counterintuitive nature of homosexual relationships: same-sex partners do not produce offspring that will provide to the society. But it's important to note that there are cultural examples of homosexuality being tolerated, even accepted. In India, there is a community of transvestites called the 'hijras' and with American Indians there are the berdache, which are transgendered in that they take on roles of both male and female. There are many other instances of culturally accepted same-sex relationships, both temporary and permanent in human history. In the end, I think that the discrimination and biased attitude against homosexuals is based on antiquated ways of thinking. We should no more prevent same-sex marriage than we would stone to death a woman who has sex prior to marriage. Finally, marriage is not a religious institution, it is a societal one. This is evident by the fact that every human culture has a concept of marriage regardless of religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 The third precept of Theravada Buddhism states, "I undertake the rule of training not to go the wrong way for sexual pleasure." While this doesn't implicitly mention homosexuality, Buddhist commentators have traditionally held that sexual misconduct includes it. actually that leans more toward illegal activity and giving into lustful temptation, which is against buddhist prinicple, to give up all desire and become enlightened. Infact I believe there was an interview with the Dali Lama about homosexuality, I'll try and find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanLingo Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by Lynk Former there's a problem with priest molesting children in many parts of the world. do you think that's a right thing to be doing VanLingo? Your beliefs IMO are ****ed up but they are your beliefs no matter how bad it seems to me, so in turn, accept other peoples beliefs. I know this isn't my forum to moderate but clean it up guys or I'll make sure someone goes down. You have a right to your own opinion but keep it clean and free of name calling. Attack the "issue" not the people. WHAT would make you think that I could ever consider that kind of act the "right thing to do"?! What you mentioned encompasses fornication AND homosexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by VanLingo To answer your questions, SkinWalker: I'm not sure what the exact word count limit is, but I have been cut short of it several times. It may be only on the PMs. I'll get back to you on that. No need. PMs are the only places you find a limit on characters. And just for informational purposes, Mods are held to the same character limit as everyone else in PMs. Originally posted by VanLingo As far as calling you racist, you disdainfully referred to boranchistanger as being a "member of the white middle-class." I protest! I did not! Not "disdainfully," anyway. I was merely pointing out the reason why boranchistanger might not note the faults of health care. I work with economically challenged teens in Dallas (all races, btw) and have noted that the Hispanic-American and African-American populations do not receive the quality of health care that their white middle-class counterparts do. This isn't a racial problem so much as it is an economic one in all likelihood, but race or ethnicity are definately characteristic traits in the problem. Whether they are cause or effect remains to be proven. By the way, I noted in your reply to InsaneSith that you value grammer and punctuation, so I took the liberty of correcting some punctuation above (actually, I was attempting to point out how trite that is in a discussion, in case anyone believes I would actually correct such a thing). Originally posted by VanLingo If you are not racist, please forgive me. Forgiven. Originally posted by VanLingo You're a Socialist. Another ad hominem remark? How do you define "Socialist?" If its someone who thinks that a modern, technological society such as ours should not have children and even adults who need healthcare they cannot afford, then perhaps I am. But I'm also very conservative when it comes to wanting government to stay as small as possible (that used to be the Conservative philosophy, you know). I suspect, however, that it was simply a weak attempt at an ad hominem. @ InsaneSith - Please edit your post that refers to another member as a "sap." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanLingo Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Thanks for the correction, but it wasn't needed. Quotes within a sentence are proceeded by the period. If the whole sentence was a quote, you'd be more in order. As for the rest of your post -- you've just left my threshold of reasonable argument. Can I get that in layman's terms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by VanLingo Give me one good reason that two men can't love each other without getting married? Give me one good reason that a man and a woman can't love each other without getting married Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDurp Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 you're right, i dont belive in the bible. but i do care, because homosexuals are real people and you guys dont seem to treat them as such, you blindly follow a book of radical fables thatyou take too literally and automatically think that its right, why? -- and no, buddhism is not against homosexuality, because the whole idea of buddha is to treat everyone equally and give them the same respect, i know because i study it every day. buddhism is the only modern religion not to kill people for having other beliefs, so why not believe in a true peaceful religion? -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by SkinWalker But I'm also very conservative when it comes to wanting government to stay as small as possible -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i guess finally we're at a disagreement, i believe government should stay as large as possible for two simple reasons. 1. So the government has the money and power to fix the world's needs 2. Because in a small government, a powerful company or religion can easily take control of the government by putting their members in office, look at Pete Coors running for senate in Colorado, and of course the whole deal with Cheaney and Halliburton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaebginn Posted August 2, 2004 Author Share Posted August 2, 2004 Back from church. Ok ET, a man and a woman should and often do get married for a few things. One, it is sanctioned by God for man and woman to get married. It is ok for them to get married, so they do, and no one has a problem with it. And they can have sex wi th it being ok by God. gays cant. their choice is alreayd banned by God, so why get married if u r already disobeying God. Dont partake in God's ceremony of marriage if you're gonna tarnish it by having same sex marriage. and thsi coutnry was built on chrisitan beliefs, dont like it? leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by InsaneSith marriage isn't a christian invention. also marriage has beneifts such as joint tax filing, and lower insurance rates, etc. where as a basic civil union does not give you those rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaebginn Posted August 2, 2004 Author Share Posted August 2, 2004 it isnt a christian invention because the christian word in greek, I beleive means 'little jesus' a greek term trying to mock the beleivers in Christ. We turned it around and took it as our name. It was made after jesus died. marriage is created by God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 No. Marriage is a creation of society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Not even just 'society'. It was created by HUMANS. Marriage exists in pretty much every culture, even the ones that don't believe in God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.