Nairb Notneb Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Food and Drug Administration on Wednesday approved an implantable computer chip that can pass a patient's medical details to doctors, speeding care. http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/10/13/fda.implant.chip.ap/index.html The company that is manufacturing these chips has a deal with Mexico to make these chips for them for $9 million through 2006! It's basically a UPC code that is under your skin identifying you, and now it is legally ok by the FDA. This is straight from George Orwell and other books as well. This thing scares me and I don't like it. It has already been used to identify people for security reasons in Mexico, tested on people in the USA for health identification and used as a credit card in Europe! If this thing takes off there will be no need for a drivers license, credit card, debit card, social security card, cash or I.D. of any kind. Just hold out your hand and scan. And with the RF technology added to it, if any body wants to know anything about you just scan a room or 100 foot area and "read" who's around and know everything about everybody around. Conspiracy theory? Maybe, sure, civil rights violation, you better believe it. If you say that it would never be used for that because the government says so then you my friend are, and forgive me for saying this, stupid. The government told us that the withholding of income tax was a temporary fix to quickly generate funds for World War 2 and that's been over for a long time now and withholding is still here. The government said that our social security number would never be used for a personal id number. Do you ever have to give it out to identify yourself? The government told us that when they made it the law to have to buckle your seatbelts in the car that we would never be pulled over just because we didn't have them buckled? Now we are pulled over and our cars can be searched because we didn't buckle up (safety hazard or not, the point is they didn't stick with their promise). Obviously if the government promises something you can bank on it not happening. This chip is a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopster Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Heh, thanks but no thanks. The only chips that get put under my skin are the ones I put there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Originally posted by Loopster Heh, thanks but no thanks. The only chips that get put under my skin are the ones I put there. And this is the part where I ask what kind of chips are you putting under your skin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapNColostomy Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Originally posted by ET Warrior And this is the part where I ask what kind of chips are you putting under your skin Potato and corn chips would be my first guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Originally posted by CapNColostomy Potato and corn chips would be my first guess. But....why would you put them under your skin..... I guess EATING them TECHNICALLY puts them under your skin.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Windu Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Maybe he likes that kind of kinky stuff. You won't find me with stuff under my skin. I have a hard enough time with needles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 "I think this stuff is fantastic, don't you see the possibilities? No more will patients have to suffer and even die while the incompetant filing system makes the doctors wastes precious hours. Even better, we know where terrorists are in the country with the radio-transmitter in the chips." -Random elite of the US heirarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 this is crap. just work on electronic file systems, via computers. they might as well just put cameras in our houses in all our rooms and monitor all calls, record all conversations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by Loopster Heh, thanks but no thanks. The only chips that get put under my skin are the ones I put there. Yeah right, but then you will find that although it isn't "mandatory" you will get faster medical service when you have one, then you will find it gets extended to make other parts of your life "easier" then you will find you can't easily vote without it... then there will be a terrorist attack or something and they will knee-jerk add laws to require it to go on flights, and to allow the police to check it... and eventually you will find that (a) it isn't used for anything liek it's original purpose and (b) if you don't have one you are going to be shut out of a lot of things. Thats how these things happen. If they outright tell everyone to get one, they rebel... if they slowly make it inconvenient not to have one... everyone ends up with one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alegis Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 I wouldn't mind. I wouldnt mind that everyone has an ID under their skin that can be scanned. Once read a book when i was very young, think it was called "Vechten voor overmorgen" (fight for the day after tomorrow) by 'Evert Hartman'. Anyways, there everyone has an (external) ID card. In a bus for example you just go over it with your scan thing, everything is based on it. It's actually progress, doing things faster but many seem not to want to go "too fast". Treated like pieces of machinery, computers... I'm not going to jump for it, but i aint scared or disgusted from it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 screw this chip thing man, it's just one more step to making us all numbers and serial codes. I'm all for security and convenience, but not at the cost of my anonymity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZBomber Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by InsaneSith screw this chip thing man, it's just one more step to making us all numbers and serial codes. I'm all for security and convenience, but not at the cost of my anonymity. Maybe. Now, is this required? Is everyone going to have to have this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nairb Notneb Posted October 14, 2004 Author Share Posted October 14, 2004 Tyrion, that's my point. That's what frightens me the most. These chips work on a radio frequency. All they have to do is turn it on with a scanner and find you. No body would be able to hide any where from any one. It would be a great idea if the government were never corrupt. Do you trust your government to get everything right all of the time? Are computers always right? Have you ever been billed incorrectly because of computer error? Has a computer ever been hacked? What happens if the computers all crash? Imagine if you will, you are in a nasty divorce, or you are trying to purchase some land, or you accidentally cut off some guy in traffic (the situation doesn't really matter the bottom line is that somebody is mad at you) and they make a call to a friend that manages the accounts for the chip guys and your number comes up. You never did anything wrong but your chip says it does. Prove it false. Tell me it will never happen. How hard is it now to fix it when somebody steals your identity now. When somebody steals your chip number you will be really screwed. There is no fail safe system of security. As soon as you think you are 100% safe because of technology you are vulnerable because of it. If you think that registering each human being like this will make us all safe and more efficient, then ask all of the Jews that survived World War 2 Germany how safe and secure they were when Hitler began registering them for their safety. The reasons we are given for "needing" this chip are the same reasons that Hitler gave the Jews for putting the Star of David on them. The next thing he did was genocide. What enabled him to do it? He knew exactly where every Jew was. If we know exactly where every person is and exactly every measurable information about them, we can discriminate against them with the greatest of ease. Apply for a job, but before you do you must have your chip scanned to make sure that you are qualified. Why? To check your criminal background? Sure. To check for outstanding warrants, sure. Also to see if you are an illegal immigrant or a wanted terrorist. An employer could also see if you have a mental disorder or if you were a former alcoholic. Maybe you have a speeding ticket and they don't like that. Your job history could be on that chip. There would be no secrets anymore. If you can't tell this chip frightens me and what the world could become because of it. Yes many things would be more convenient, but many more things would be abused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 precisely, this thing could, and most definitely would, be abused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by Alegis I wouldn't mind. I wouldnt mind that everyone has an ID under their skin that can be scanned. Once read a book when i was very young, think it was called "Vechten voor overmorgen" (fight for the day after tomorrow) by 'Evert Hartman'. Anyways, there everyone has an (external) ID card. In a bus for example you just go over it with your scan thing, everything is based on it. It's actually progress, doing things faster but many seem not to want to go "too fast". Treated like pieces of machinery, computers... I'm not going to jump for it, but i aint scared or disgusted from it I read a book when i was younger, homeworld by harry harrisson: HOMEWORLD IS HEAVEN ON EARTH IF YOU DON'T ASK QUESTIONS... Homeworld is stable at last, hundreds of years after the collapse of the 20th Century economy. For the millions of proles, life is still a grim ordeal, but for the lucky few, like Engineer Jan Kulozik, there is every kind of luxury. Except one. On Homeworld, where everything and everyone is monitored by the faceless power of government, there is no freedom. First volume of the To The Stars trilogy. In this story of post-Twentieth Century Earth, Man has recovered from the disaster wrought by the Wasters who used up the planet's reserves of fossil fuels and overpopulated the planet. The all-powerful oligarchical governments which guided the people through the bad times have retained their powerful positions. The population of Britain is divided into two classes, the executive class and the proles. Unemployment runs at 90% among the proles, while the upper-class lives comfortably. Homeworld is a bleak future vision, a post-microchip version of Orwell's 1984, where the all powerful security forces watch every move and plot lives as though they are pawns in a chess game. Its getting to be startling accurate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jed Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 I don't like this one bit. **** 'em, I'd cut myself open and dig the thing out. I don't want my anonymity to be taken away for "convenience". If I go to apply for a job and they scan my chip to see my criminal record (nothing to hide...yet ), my medical record (diabetic+other), and hell, maybe my education records, they could reject me for just about any reason and not have to claim it. Not to mention being able to track people...that's just creepy. Leave me out of this 1984 crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nairb Notneb Posted October 15, 2004 Author Share Posted October 15, 2004 Here's another idea. What if they scan you and find out information not just about you, but they see who you are related too and hold that against you? Lets say they start taking into account the medical history of your parents then, or their mental history? If you want to be a school teacher and your father was a pedophile, would they, could they, make an argument that you "could" have been abused by him therefore you too could potentially be a pedophile yourself now? I admit that this a huge jump on my part and maybe I watch to much TV, or maybe I'm paranoid, but it is a possibility. I mean, if McDonalds can get slapped with a law suite from a lady that puts a hot cup of coffee between her own legs and spills it and they can get sued from kids that are fat, then this could happen too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid Bremen Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Convenience? Blast convenience. I'd rather not have every single piece of information on me, from how many hairs I have on my head to my criminal records known to anybody who has the money to buy a scanner. I'd rather keep my anonymity, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 I think that this is a horrendous idea. I am appalled that people are so willing to give up their privacy for convenience, because the more we give the more the powers to be will push. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toms Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Originally posted by Nairb Notneb If you want to be a school teacher and your father was a pedophile, would they, could they, make an argument that you "could" have been abused by him therefore you too could potentially be a pedophile yourself now? The US government already uses statistical analysis of chopping and library books to identify terrorists... ie, people who buy the same things as terrorists i guess.. who knows... Pretty soon every single thing you buy will have RFID tags in it, meaning they can track it's entire route. So they can probably track you by that jacket you bought last week anyway... but combine that with this tag... and if it turns out that terrorists like to have salmon on wednesdays and have bad their left teeth then you might be in trouble if you happen to do that too... Of course, like copy protection on cds, the REAL criminals will know how to get around it, but the rest of us will be oblivious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nairb Notneb Posted October 15, 2004 Author Share Posted October 15, 2004 To play devil's advocate though, is there any real difference now without the chip? I already carry around my drivers license for id and I issue my social security number all of the time for an id number. What would be the real difference with the exception of speed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 As with all the "monitor everyone everywhere" style technology conspiracies (the technology makes it possible, the conspiracy theory says it will be abused).... There IS a great potential for it to be abused to invade privacy etc. And the defense given for it is always "well if you have nothing to hide, if you're a law abiding citizen, you have nothing to worry about." To that I say, SURE. If you are a law abiding citizen, but let's say that you do something you're not proud of, embarrassed by even. Not something illegal, just something that would hurt your reputation. Now lets say somebody can dig up that dirt on you and tell your friends, family, boss, coworkers, or strangers so they never look at you the same way or treat you the same way again. It's not their right to have that information, but if the technnology is there it makes it far easier for them to do it. Thus, a person could be blackmailed, or have their reputation ruined a lot easier. This gives certain people a lot more power to run things. It increases the potential for spam for example because companies could use it to target you for advertising (see "Minority Report" for a great example, as Tom Cruise is passing by those posters and his "eyes" identify him and the ads are sent to him automatically). If somehow you are "blacklisted" for your political opinions, unpopular ideas or something or some other form of discrmination, that can be done too. If you had to change your identity to avoid reprisals (whistle blower on a company scandal, witness against organized crime, etc) it would be harder to "hide." People harass each other all the time, from harassing emails, to harassing phone calls, people in the street, etc. Folks have a lot of reasons to make it tough for each other due to disagreements or simply because they don't like the way you look or the way you live. This gives folks another tool they can use to hurt one another as much as help. If you removed your chip you'd disappear off the grid, but then it could be done in such a way as it would be difficult or impossible to remove without painful surgery. Then we have people being denied services if they don't have one, etc. Credit cards are one thing, it's bad enough that so many things require a credit card, if a person doesn't want one, they don't have many choices. Granted, this isn't completely 100%, but it's even worse with a chip. I can see it being used for some applications, but requring everyone to have one put in, or putting them in people by force? No way. And if its to replace credit cards, driver's liscense, ID card, etc. then no way, because that's a defacto way of forcing people to get one. I'm no technophobe, but this is just has too high a potential for abuse. Don't write off your privacy and freedom for a little bit of extra convenience, I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth333 Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Unfortunately, I feel that this world seems to consider more and more the human being as a simple object whose purpose is to "produce" $$$. I am just looking at the wording that has been developped in the business world over the last decades: instead of speaking of employees, enterprises speak of "human capital" just like any other "asset". Almost everything is measured in terms of monetary performance....and now, this chip... I believe, this new chip is not only a tool to make our lifes easier and better but another step towards the "machinization" of the human being, an important breach in the principles of freedom and privacy. George Orwell might have been wrong by only 20 years... I am afraid this 1984 scenario is likely to affect our lifes much more than suspected. It starts with a simple chip that is presented with the advantage of being able to "pass a patient's medical details to doctors, speeding care". However, how long will it be before other sectors adopt the same method and our every single move can be tracked? How long will it be before insurance companies start requiring this chip or give rebates to those equipped with this chip in the name of safety and diminished risk? (while in fact they evaluate their risk of having to pay - what if they find that what you buy at the grocery store doesn't meet their criteria of healthy food? They could deny your insurance policy, per example) What are we ready to sacrifice in the name of a "risk-free"society? What about the " if you're a law abiding citizen, you have nothing to hide and nothing to worry about" ? If some people don't care about giving away every centimeter of their privacy, it is not true for everyone: the physical and psychological needs of individuals vary from one another. Many specialists and writers, among them, Kundera, recognized that privacy is essential to the development of human individuality. No one acts the same in private than in public or when they know they could or are observed. This technology could be easily abused and a lot of information could be misused. Human nature requires a certain degree of intimacy and privacy and the invasion of privacy can have devastating effects on all human beings. Recent history is filled with public enquiries that have lead to suicides and depressions... Privacy invasion can also affect society in general, have a "chilling effect" to use a well known Court expression in privacy cases. Society evolves because there are public debates, exchange of opinions. Privacy invasion by governments and others can discourage political dissent, freedom of speech, participation of people in debates, associations, etc. The more people know about you, the more power they have over you (to those who haven't read 1984 by George Orwell, then go to the store and get that book - it's been written 50 years ago but it is still quite up to date...perhaps more than ever.). I am not American but I can't believe that they are ready to approve this chip while they let people possess guns in the name of freedom. Not that I am against new technology (I wouldn't be here), on the contrary, I like to see new things but this is a door I wish remains closed. I like to have some control over the personal information I give away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamtrip Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Your cellphone can traced to give your position via GPS. Your phonelines can be monitered via digital system. Your email can be intercepted and read without you knowing. CCTV cameras moniter towns and cities 24 hours a day (some with powerful face recognition software). Chips in cars to combat 'theft' can track your car's position via GPS. You credit card usage can be monitered at any time. Don't you think it's too late to be worrying about these things? They can already do all of this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth333 Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Originally posted by iamtrip Your cellphone can traced to give your position via GPS. Your phonelines can be monitered via digital system. Your email can be intercepted and read without you knowing. CCTV cameras moniter towns and cities 24 hours a day (some with powerful face recognition software). Chips in cars to combat 'theft' can track your car's position via GPS. You credit card usage can be monitered at any time. Don't you think it's too late to be worrying about these things? They can already do all of this stuff. I know this but I still have the choice to use or not most of these devices and it's far from being as invasive as an implanted chip. As for the cameras that monitor towns and cities, when I walk in the streets I am already in public places. It is not because those things already exist that we have to give everything away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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