Does ROTS have a few too many coincidences?

[Mike Windu]

It's just a ploy to integrate Lucas' cameo fest.

 

But oh well, it's cinema, and it's Star Wars. Can't ask for much more than that.

 

Well, you can, but you'll be sorely dissappointed.

[Mike Windu]

It's just a ploy to integrate Lucas' cameo fest.

 

But oh well, it's cinema, and it's Star Wars. Can't ask for much more than that.

 

Well, you can, but you'll be sorely dissappointed.

[Flowing Force]

This just in "midichlorians" are actually a form of hallucinogenic mushroom. This explains everything!

 

Ha-Ha-HAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

 

I love it!

 

Ummm...

 

And your comment here isn't that bad either.

 

LOL.

 

You gave me the incentive to post a new thread...

 

Heh-Heh-Heh...

[Grey Raven]

First post in this particular forum. Forgive me...

 

Why is everyone picking on ROTJ? There are no coincidences there. Obi-Wan simply explained what we were told in ESB. Period. Now, about ROTS...ugh.

 

As far as being a back story for and referencing the OT, it completely bombed. In ANH, we're told that "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot." Is that how one would REALLY describe an eight-year-old? Pod racin' ain't flyin'. "Let's try spinning; that's a good trick!" Also, in ESB, Vader already knew that Luke was his son. If ROTS is accurate, and the children were hidden before ANYONE in the Empire knew about it, how did Vader? And don't pull that "he used the Force" crap on me, because he didn't recognize Leia. And another point: ANH claims that Anakin wanted Luke to have his lightsaber when he was old enough. In ROTS, Anakin never said that. And that he wanted Luke to have it anyway proves that he knew about Luke before they met. Also, ESB claims that Obi-Wan was apprentice to Yoda, not that stupid hippie Qui-Gon. But that's TPM.

[Flowing Force]

"When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot." Is that how one would REALLY describe an eight-year-old? Pod racin' ain't flyin'.

True. But I think that Obi Wan may have described Luke's dad as a "great pilot" "when (he) first knew him" for sake of BREVITY. Besides, we all know that Lucas didn't exactly have (nor require) the details of pod-racing back in 1976 when filming ANH. Defining Anakin as a "great pilot" sort-of embodies the pod-racing Thing.

 

If ROTS is accurate, and the children were hidden before ANYONE in the Empire knew about it, how did Vader? And don't pull that "he used the Force" crap on me, because he didn't recognize Leia.

It is likely that Vader may have recieved a premonition of his son-- the very individual who would destroy him (as Vader). It's not an uncommon element in myth for the antagonist to have knowledge of a fate of being disempowered/destroyed by his own offspring. It is NOT a common element in myth, however, for the antagonist to know what happens to the SIBLINGS of the one who will desroy him. I believe that Vader could have indeed recieved knowledge of Luke without recieving knowledge of Leia.

 

And another point: ANH claims that Anakin wanted Luke to have his lightsaber when he was old enough. In ROTS, Anakin never said that.

On film, this is true... he never said that. But a great deal of stuff wasn't SHOWN on film, though much of it is REERENCED TO on film, like the lightsaber-to-my-son request. Besides, even IF Anakin never actually spoke the words to Obi Wan (even off-film), that doesn't really mean anything anyways. Obi Wan KNEW (just as you and I know) that Anakin truly WOULD HAVE wanted such a thing. That's the beauty of the whole saga... that it was the restriction of Love that helped push Anakin to become Vader (pulled from his Mom, kept from returning to his mom, denied a loving relatationship with Amidala, etc). YET it is Love that is the root of all that saves him in the end... the Love of his son... a son created from Anakin's OWN Love. A Love strong enough to see THROUGH the evil that an entire galaxy could not see through, let alone break through. Yup. I feel that Anakin actually DID want such a thing, even though we didn't hear those words spoken in ROTS. Nobody really wants doom for themselves.

 

Also, ESB claims that Obi-Wan was apprentice to Yoda, not that stupid hippie Qui-Gon.

"There you will learn from Yoda, The Jedi Master who instructed me". Yoda DID instruct Obi Wan. Perhaps they weren't in a Master/Apprentice relationship, but Yoda certainly WAS an instructor for countless Jedi (just look at the class of younglings, or the teachings Yoda gives to the rest of the Jedi-- be it in council OR one-on-one). Yoda instructed Obi Wan, though Obi Wan was not his apprentice.

 

Details, details, details. I happen to know that almost ALL of the "discrepencies" that people find in the first trilogy (I, II, and III) can be easily explained if an honest answer is sought for. It seems to me that there are alot of people who simply WANT TO not like the first trilogy, and actually look for (or even create) reasons to find it inferior to the second, as well as sometimes ignoring explinations and correlations and "good points" that are in the first trilogy.

[KyleOfHarpenden]

look in the star wars world there isnt really coincidences theres the force.

[Grey Raven]

True. But I think that Obi Wan may have described Luke's dad as a "great pilot" "when (he) first knew him" for sake of BREVITY. Besides, we all know that Lucas didn't exactly have (nor require) the details of pod-racing back in 1976 when filming ANH. Defining Anakin as a "great pilot" sort-of embodies the pod-racing Thing.

Pod racing never should have been in the prequel. Anakin never should have been an eight-year-old when he and Obi-Wan first meet. There are many things about the way Lucas told the story of the prequel that are so sub-standard for a writer...Anakin should have been introduced as a pilot (whether pod racer or other) and he should have been much older, 16 or 17 at least.

 

It is likely that Vader may have recieved a premonition of his son-- the very individual who would destroy him (as Vader). It's not an uncommon element in myth for the antagonist to have knowledge of a fate of being disempowered/destroyed by his own offspring. It is NOT a common element in myth, however, for the antagonist to know what happens to the SIBLINGS of the one who will desroy him. I believe that Vader could have indeed recieved knowledge of Luke without recieving knowledge of Leia.

Not believable. If such divination was available to Vader, he would have been able to find Luke. It is made clear in the original trilogy that foresight is not Vader's strong point. It's more believable that he and the Emperor both knew of Luke's existence, they simply neither had the foresight to find him.

 

On film, this is true... he never said that. But a great deal of stuff wasn't SHOWN on film, though much of it is REERENCED TO on film, like the lightsaber-to-my-son request. Besides, even IF Anakin never actually spoke the words to Obi Wan (even off-film), that doesn't really mean anything anyways. Obi Wan KNEW (just as you and I know) that Anakin truly WOULD HAVE wanted such a thing. That's the beauty of the whole saga... that it was the restriction of Love that helped push Anakin to become Vader (pulled from his Mom, kept from returning to his mom, denied a loving relatationship with Amidala, etc). YET it is Love that is the root of all that saves him in the end... the Love of his son... a son created from Anakin's OWN Love. A Love strong enough to see THROUGH the evil that an entire galaxy could not see through, let alone break through. Yup. I feel that Anakin actually DID want such a thing, even though we didn't hear those words spoken in ROTS. Nobody really wants doom for themselves.

It's details like this, though, that tie the two trilogies together, make them seem part of the same story. Omission of corellations like these show that Lucas was not interesting in creating a cohesive storyline.

 

 

"There you will learn from Yoda, The Jedi Master who instructed me". Yoda DID instruct Obi Wan. Perhaps they weren't in a Master/Apprentice relationship, but Yoda certainly WAS an instructor for countless Jedi (just look at the class of younglings, or the teachings Yoda gives to the rest of the Jedi-- be it in council OR one-on-one). Yoda instructed Obi Wan, though Obi Wan was not his apprentice.

There is nothing to show that Yoda instructed Obi-Wan, except the reference in ESB. Again, details like these produce cohesion.

 

Details, details, details. I happen to know that almost ALL of the "discrepencies" that people find in the first trilogy (I, II, and III) can be easily explained if an honest answer is sought for. It seems to me that there are alot of people who simply WANT TO not like the first trilogy, and actually look for (or even create) reasons to find it inferior to the second, as well as sometimes ignoring explinations and correlations and "good points" that are in the first trilogy.

What you're saying here is ludicrous. No one has "made these discrepencies up". They exist, and have been pointed out time and time again. When telling a story, whether through a book, a movie, or speech, it is the little details that maintain the flow of the story, and tie the events together. It was especially important in this case for Lucas to focus on and include these details for two reasons: Firstly, he should have known that his fan-base has basically memorized every line from the original trilogy, and would be, themselves, focusing on these details. Secondly, because he's basically telling the story backwards, the details are the only thing we have to tie the events of the two trilogies together. These details promote familiarity from one trilogy to the next, so that, as those being told the story, we are given the creedence that we expect from our story-teller. Had Lucas done the details right, and followed the references he set down in the original trilogy, the prequel would have at least been believable as a part of the Star Wras universe (despite the lousy casting), and we would not be having this discussion right now.

[Grey Raven]

True. But I think that Obi Wan may have described Luke's dad as a "great pilot" "when (he) first knew him" for sake of BREVITY. Besides, we all know that Lucas didn't exactly have (nor require) the details of pod-racing back in 1976 when filming ANH. Defining Anakin as a "great pilot" sort-of embodies the pod-racing Thing.

Pod racing never should have been in the prequel. Anakin never should have been an eight-year-old when he and Obi-Wan first meet. There are many things about the way Lucas told the story of the prequel that are so sub-standard for a writer...Anakin should have been introduced as a pilot (whether pod racer or other) and he should have been much older, 16 or 17 at least.

 

It is likely that Vader may have recieved a premonition of his son-- the very individual who would destroy him (as Vader). It's not an uncommon element in myth for the antagonist to have knowledge of a fate of being disempowered/destroyed by his own offspring. It is NOT a common element in myth, however, for the antagonist to know what happens to the SIBLINGS of the one who will desroy him. I believe that Vader could have indeed recieved knowledge of Luke without recieving knowledge of Leia.

Not believable. If such divination was available to Vader, he would have been able to find Luke. It is made clear in the original trilogy that foresight is not Vader's strong point. It's more believable that he and the Emperor both knew of Luke's existence, they simply neither had the foresight to find him.

 

On film, this is true... he never said that. But a great deal of stuff wasn't SHOWN on film, though much of it is REERENCED TO on film, like the lightsaber-to-my-son request. Besides, even IF Anakin never actually spoke the words to Obi Wan (even off-film), that doesn't really mean anything anyways. Obi Wan KNEW (just as you and I know) that Anakin truly WOULD HAVE wanted such a thing. That's the beauty of the whole saga... that it was the restriction of Love that helped push Anakin to become Vader (pulled from his Mom, kept from returning to his mom, denied a loving relatationship with Amidala, etc). YET it is Love that is the root of all that saves him in the end... the Love of his son... a son created from Anakin's OWN Love. A Love strong enough to see THROUGH the evil that an entire galaxy could not see through, let alone break through. Yup. I feel that Anakin actually DID want such a thing, even though we didn't hear those words spoken in ROTS. Nobody really wants doom for themselves.

It's details like this, though, that tie the two trilogies together, make them seem part of the same story. Omission of corellations like these show that Lucas was not interesting in creating a cohesive storyline.

 

 

"There you will learn from Yoda, The Jedi Master who instructed me". Yoda DID instruct Obi Wan. Perhaps they weren't in a Master/Apprentice relationship, but Yoda certainly WAS an instructor for countless Jedi (just look at the class of younglings, or the teachings Yoda gives to the rest of the Jedi-- be it in council OR one-on-one). Yoda instructed Obi Wan, though Obi Wan was not his apprentice.

There is nothing to show that Yoda instructed Obi-Wan, except the reference in ESB. Again, details like these produce cohesion.

 

Details, details, details. I happen to know that almost ALL of the "discrepencies" that people find in the first trilogy (I, II, and III) can be easily explained if an honest answer is sought for. It seems to me that there are alot of people who simply WANT TO not like the first trilogy, and actually look for (or even create) reasons to find it inferior to the second, as well as sometimes ignoring explinations and correlations and "good points" that are in the first trilogy.

What you're saying here is ludicrous. No one has "made these discrepencies up". They exist, and have been pointed out time and time again. When telling a story, whether through a book, a movie, or speech, it is the little details that maintain the flow of the story, and tie the events together. It was especially important in this case for Lucas to focus on and include these details for two reasons: Firstly, he should have known that his fan-base has basically memorized every line from the original trilogy, and would be, themselves, focusing on these details. Secondly, because he's basically telling the story backwards, the details are the only thing we have to tie the events of the two trilogies together. These details promote familiarity from one trilogy to the next, so that, as those being told the story, we are given the creedence that we expect from our story-teller. Had Lucas done the details right, and followed the references he set down in the original trilogy, the prequel would have at least been believable as a part of the Star Wras universe (despite the lousy casting), and we would not be having this discussion right now.

[TSR]

wow. you have alot of spare time. i completely agree (mainly because i cant be ar*ed to read all that)

[Elukka]

Originally Posted by Grey Raven

And another point: ANH claims that Anakin wanted Luke to have his lightsaber when he was old enough. In ROTS, Anakin never said that.

 

I think that Obi-Wan lied. He also didn't tell Luke that Vader was his father... When Vader knew that he had kids, he was already called Darth Vader. Why would he want Luke to have his own lightsaber and become a jedi?

 

"When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot." Is that how one would REALLY describe an eight-year-old? Pod racin' ain't flyin'.

 

Who said piloting means flying? Also, yes, that is how you describe an 8-year old if you want to praise him. Anyways, he was a good pilot with the podracers and also used an N-1 starfighter.

[arkodeon]

"When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot." Is that how one would REALLY describe an eight-year-old?

 

Considering that in what seemed as the first week of their meeting, Anakin evaded laser bolts from Droid Starfighters, blew up a Trade Federation Control Ship from the inside, AND escaped with his life, I'd say that it would be an accurate description for THIS 8 year old.

[Darth_Terros]

Not believable. If such divination was available to Vader, he would have been able to find Luke. It is made clear in the original trilogy that foresight is not Vader's strong point. It's more believable that he and the Emperor both knew of Luke's existence, they simply neither had the foresight to find him.

 

He had forseen his wifes death through the dreams he had why not his own? infact he even saw his mothers death i dont think its unbelievable at all that he couldnt see his own and vsions of his son.

 

And i think its made pretty clear in the prequel trilogy that forsight IS a strong point for him.

[Grey Raven]

I think that Obi-Wan lied. He also didn't tell Luke that Vader was his father... When Vader knew that he had kids, he was already called Darth Vader. Why would he want Luke to have his own lightsaber and become a jedi?

Padme told Anakin that she was pregnant BEFORE he became Vader.

 

 

 

Who said piloting means flying? Also, yes, that is how you describe an 8-year old if you want to praise him. Anyways, he was a good pilot with the podracers and also used an N-1 starfighter.

We're shown with the pod racing that he lucked up some. But yes, he did seem to have some skill. However, would you call Mario Andretti a good pilot? Piloting does mean flying, and pod racing is NOT flying.

 

Considering that in what seemed as the first week of their meeting, Anakin evaded laser bolts from Droid Starfighters, blew up a Trade Federation Control Ship from the inside, AND escaped with his life, I'd say that it would be an accurate description for THIS 8 year old.

When young Anakin flew that N-1 he survived purely on luck. He fumble around and displayed no skill whatsoever. Lucas never should have made Anakin so young in the story. It just isn't believable.

 

He had forseen his wifes death through the dreams he had why not his own? infact he even saw his mothers death i dont think its unbelievable at all that he couldnt see his own and vsions of his son.

 

And i think its made pretty clear in the prequel trilogy that forsight IS a strong point for him.

The original trilogy is the Star Wars bible, as it was written BEFORE the prequel. All later installments must be based upon references from those first legendary films. Nothing in the prequel should be taken as Star Wars "fact". In the original trilogy, we are shown that Vader has very little, if any, foresight. The Anakin\Vader character from the prequel doesn't fit ANY of the descriptions given of him in the original trilogy.

 

Just to further my point about Lucas' apparent loss of writing skills, in one of the documentaries from the ROTS DVD, Lucas even comments that, although he has his technical teams working like dogs to hash out a story, he had actually begun work on neither the story nor the screenplay. Evidently, he threw something together at the last minute, and we hardcore fans are now paying for his laziness and lack of interest.

[Henz]

Lucas never should have made Anakin so young in the story. It just isn't believable.

 

You're missing the point. He shouldn't have been that young cos' the kid was annoying lol.

 

I like the "coincedences". The fun of the prequels is watching the good guys get screwed over, knowing they're gonna get screwed over. It's a tradegy; and I enjoy seeing the characters being undone by circumstance.

[Darth_Terros]

The original trilogy is the Star Wars bible, as it was written BEFORE the prequel. All later installments must be based upon references from those first legendary films. Nothing in the prequel should be taken as Star Wars "fact". In the original trilogy, we are shown that Vader has very little, if any, foresight. The Anakin\Vader character from the prequel doesn't fit ANY of the descriptions given of him in the original trilogy.

 

........ that is so retarded im not even sure what to say, you are joking right?.

[arkodeon]

 

When young Anakin flew that N-1 he survived purely on luck. He fumble around and displayed no skill whatsoever. Lucas never should have made Anakin so young in the story. It just isn't believable.

 

If I remember correctly, though, wasn't Anakin 9, or 10 in TPM? Anyways, you are forgetting about the infallable deduction that Midichlorians are the reason why Anakin can do so many things? It only stands to REASON that the Midichlorians GUIDED him to destroy the Trade Federation Control Ship; he is, don't you know, the highest in Midichlorian count at the time, so it must be that he is super intelligent with his piloting skills.

 

You know, he's not a normal boy. Normal boys don't fall in love with someone twice their age or so.

[Alkonium]

You know, he's not a normal boy. Normal boys don't fall in love with someone twice their age or so.

Padmé's not twice as old as Anakin, she's five years older than him, just so you know.

[Elukka]

Padme told Anakin that she was pregnant BEFORE he became Vader.

 

Palpy told Vader that he had killed Padme. While she was on Mustafar she was still obviously pregnant.

 

"NOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooo!"

[arkodeon]

Padmé's not twice as old as Anakin, she's five years older than him, just so you know.

 

I said twice or so. Five is closer to 9 than 4, 3, 2, etc. If you round up... yeah, you get the picture.

 

Padme was only 14? She didn't look 14... but yes, you are right, she is 14. But regardless, I don't think boys at age 9 start taking an interest in girls...

 

We still think they have cooties.

[PoiuyWired]

Well, Ani may have watched waaay to many Twi'lek pr0no from Watto's secret archive...

 

So he has his head start.

 

Well Padme have not lekkus, but weird hairstyle would be the next best thing.

[arkodeon]

Well, Ani may have watched waaay to many Twi'lek pr0no from Watto's secret archive...

 

So he has his head start.

 

Well Padme have not lekkus, but weird hairstyle would be the next best thing.

 

LOL Well said.

 

Padme had a knack for TRYING to look like a Geisha.

 

She fell short, sadly.

[TSR]

w00t. child pr0no. whatever will these strange discussions bring up next?

[MachineCult]

w00t. child pr0no. whatever will these strange discussions bring up next?

You always find a way to ruin a conversation don't you,

 

"child pr0no" was never a topic here.

[PoiuyWired]

Well I think we should go back to the real topic.

 

Well, starwars is written in a format not unlike ancient mythology. And coincidence is the key ingredient of a myth.

 

Drama, Karma, Fate.

 

To get this working you NEED those coincidence in the main story line.

 

As for the rest of the stuff? well, cameo are just cameo, which is always good w/o ruining the story. As for the rest, I do think some of them are done "for the fans" as some crowd-pleasing act (think "this party is over").

 

Now, RL coincidence do happen in many history changing events though, such as the Lincon/Kennedy thing, and I don't think Lucas did that. Maybe its just that people would try to dig out coincidence in a big event, such is the focus of a saga?

[Flowing Force]

Joseph Campbell.

 

That's all I'm sayin'.

 

:?)