North Korea just launched four long range test missles...

[Tyrion]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/07/04/korea.missile/index.html

 

Thankfully, the longest range one that could hit the US failed. News is going to be interesting in the next few weeks...

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Kim Jong-Il can be damned happy his little half-a-nation doesn't have oil wells:rolleyes:.

 

If you ask me, just ignore the pixie. That he's getting his little country nukes to protect himself against a non-existant imminent threat following his branding as part of an "Axis of Evil" is nothing compared to his other atrocities.

 

If he wants to waste money on missiles he's never going to use (it's not like they'll put a miniature Space Shuttle Columbia if he actually wanted to use them and did so:rolleyes: ), let him. I'm more concerned with how he lets his people starve, tortures dissenters, and in general is a demon from Inner H*** (Northern Soviet Sector).

 

And, of course, if we are to believe the Neo-Cons, standard Dictator Procedure for WMDs, especially those that are extremely dangerous and could turn the tide of an invasion, is to hide them when invaded, so let's just roll in and make him move them to Yemen. Or maybe Syria, they already have Saddam's WMDs and the Rosswell UFO:D...

[Darth Andrew]

At least the long range missile failed.

 

As we are on the subject of North Korea, I found these photos a while ago of life in NK. There are pics throughout the entire thread, so don't skip any pages.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Very good read so far, thanks a lot. Some of that stuff I knew already (such as the obligatory guide), but of course there's going to be lots of new stuff.

 

Those huge, abandoned roads really struck me. And how you had to use subterranean walkways to cross roads or get fined, as if there were cars on the roads.

 

And to think that's a city of millions of people. Downtown Oslo's got about a thousand million times more tall buildings than that, and it's got only half a million people.

[toms]

Interesting.

Especially the ones of the empty roads and barb wired beaches.

 

Those pics look a lot like china, or budapest... strange thing is i liked both of those places. Though they had much many more cars and soforth.

 

While the general level of poverty is very bad, in some ways its almost refreshing to see the simple, less technological way they live in some of the remote chinese villages, or south america, or parts of europe.

 

South korea on the other hand is a really cool, hectic, fast growing place... but you almost worry its becoming too americanised and too like everywhere else in the world.

 

Still, spending that much on nukes when you can't feed your people is really scummy. Though after afganistan and iraq you can see why NK and Iran are so keen to get nukes as soon as possible.

 

I'm sure that about 5 or so years ago the NK leadership seemed to be softening. The pres had a meeting with the south korean pres, and they seemed to be starting to reach an understanding and working together to help NK out of it's mess. that all seems to have gone out the window in the last few years though... i hope not due to the axis of evil comments.

[rccar328]

So, upside: they're not like America...downside: people are starving because the insane dictator is spending all of the people's money on nuclear weapons and threatening the world's greatest superpower instead of letting the economy thrive.

 

When are people going to realise that America really isn't that bad?

 

Looking at those pictures brought to mind cities in third-world Africa that I've visited. When it gets right down to it, if the Clinton admin hadn't given North Korea nuclear technology, it'd be totally irrelevant in terms of global politics.

[Samnmax221]

Next time they pull **** like this (which according to them is going to be very soon) I say we wait until these missiles just get out over international waters(If they even make it that far), then blow em' out of the air with an Aegis equiped ship. It'd have the same pyschological effect of waiting till a kid is learns enough to go a few feat on his bike, then charging out of the bushes and pushing him off. They'd think twice before getting back on that bike.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

So, upside: they're not like America...downside: people are starving because the insane dictator is spending all of the people's money on nuclear weapons and threatening the world's greatest superpower instead of letting the economy thrive.

 

When are people going to realise that America really isn't that bad?

He's not saying he dislikes the US, he's saying he dislikes seeing mini-USA-nations outside of the USA itself. "You almost worry because it's become too Americanized".

 

"Americanization", not "America". Two different things.

 

I like Norway, but I wouldn't want to go to South Korea and seeing Norwegian culture permeate it. Same thing.

[Samnmax221]

I like Norway, but I wouldn't want to go to South Korea and seeing Norwegian culture permeate it. Same thing.

Well your a little late, up here in da norden Minnesoda ve allready have massive amounts of da Norvegan Culture, und da Lutefisk.

[toms]

I like Norway, but I wouldn't want to go to South Korea and seeing Norwegian culture permeate it. Same thing.

 

Exactly.

 

I thought that was a very interesting thread with some cool pictures, but a lot of people commenting on it seemed to have never set foot outside a modern, industrialised nation - which surprised me quite a bit.

 

I've been to quite a lot of countries with similarly low levels of industrialisation, where people work in the fields, use bikes for transportation, and use animals for farm work. I wouldn't say that those people are any less happy... infact in some ways its nice to know there is variation out there.

 

America isn't bad... but having everything the same isn't very interesting. And I don't think that SUVs and Shiny Neon Towerblocks are any better than bulls, horses and street markets.

 

Obviously the people in NK are suffering because of the policies of their leaders... but simply having old rundown buildings, oldfashioned buses and working farm animals isn't a bad thing.. its the fact that they have no freedom, can't go on the beach and that he places more value on weapons than food production.

 

Anyway, the solution to the NK problem is easy. China won't allow NK to stir up too much trouble, because they don't want SK and Japan to start nuking up in defence.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Looking at those pictures brought to mind cities in third-world Africa that I've visited. When it gets right down to it, if the Clinton admin hadn't given North Korea nuclear technology, it'd be totally irrelevant in terms of global politics.

Yes, it would, as he'd then be baring his teeth some other way.

 

And, of course, if Bush hadn't been such a cowboy and declared North Korea and everyone in it evil, Kim Jong-Il wouldn't have felt the need to develop nuclear weapons in the first place, I fear.

[rccar328]

And, of course, if Bush hadn't been such a cowboy and declared North Korea and everyone in it evil, Kim Jong-Il wouldn't have felt the need to develop nuclear weapons in the first place, I fear.

If this is all Bush's fault, then how do you explain the fact that North Korea was developing nuclear weapons before Bush was even the governor of Texas?

 

(corroborating source)

[Dagobahn Eagle]

If this is all Bush's fault, then how do you explain the fact that North Korea was developing nuclear weapons before Bush was even the governor of Texas?

I don't deny that. But my point still stands: Bush ruined the already-weakened diplomatic efforts with North Korea. Do you think it's a coincidence that just as Bush declares North Korea evil, it announcens that it's resuming its nuclear arms production? I don't.

 

Children of the Secret State

 

Spooky movie about North Korea.

[Emperor Devon]

In this day and age, nuclear weapons are obsolete and pointless. With so many countries possessing them, firing one could very well mean firing hundreds. They are too powerful for humans to possess. The world should be gradually disarming these weapons, not producing them. The world should try and negotiate with North Korea to dismantle what weapons they have, but if not, invading them before their missiles can become too dangerous is a must.

[sockerbit89]

North Korea is quite an unpleasant place to live, yes. You know i saw a TV documentary of people in NK who had been working at a sort of chemical weapon test camp. They actually take so called criminals and put them in camps and tests poisons and gases on them. It was one of the most emotional things i've ever seem. Also did you know that if a crime is commited by a North korean man it means that also his family for like 3 generations and like 5 of his neighbors are also guilty of a crime.

 

Think about it.

 

Also > http://epod.usra.edu/archive/images/kofija.gif

see north korea? see the lack of light? yeah it's actually pitch ****ing black.

 

I.N.S.A.N.E.

[toms]

In this day and age, nuclear weapons are obsolete and pointless.

 

They are also probably your only defence against pre-emptive military action by the USA.. which is why everyone labeled the "axis of evil" is currently scrambling to get them as soon as possible.

[Emperor Devon]

They are also probably your only defence against pre-emptive military action by the USA.. which is why everyone labeled the "axis of evil" is currently scrambling to get them as soon as possible.

 

They're your own death warrant. I doubt any country with nuclear weapons would tolerate their cities being wiped off the face of the globe. They'd fire back, and it's possible other countries might join in. If the country that was fired on didn't have nuclear weapons, other ones would invade or nuke it. They cause too much destruction to ever be used soundly.

[machievelli]

Kim Jong-Il can be damned happy his little half-a-nation doesn't have oil wells:rolleyes:.

 

If you ask me, just ignore the pixie. That he's getting his little country nukes to protect himself against a non-existant imminent threat following his branding as part of an "Axis of Evil" is nothing compared to his other atrocities.

 

If he wants to waste money on missiles he's never going to use (it's not like they'll put a miniature Space Shuttle Columbia if he actually wanted to use them and did so:rolleyes: ), let him. I'm more concerned with how he lets his people starve, tortures dissenters, and in general is a demon from Inner H*** (Northern Soviet Sector).

 

And, of course, if we are to believe the Neo-Cons, standard Dictator Procedure for WMDs, especially those that are extremely dangerous and could turn the tide of an invasion, is to hide them when invaded, so let's just roll in and make him move them to Yemen. Or maybe Syria, they already have Saddam's WMDs and the Rosswell UFO:D...

 

 

I think a lot of you are missing the point. The primary reason behind the original nuclear non proliferation treatty was that anyone with a lick of sense could see, that when it was written we already had four realitvely unstable or heavily expansionist governments with them (China India Pakistan and Russia. Take you choice which is which) The idea was that a nation with nuclear weapons was a threat even to a nation much larger and more prosperous.

 

As much as people scream that we are the only ones that ever used such a weapon in anger, it should be remembered that it was Truman who addressed the Original seated United Nations, and called for these dangerous toys to be given to the UN. Not Russia's (They would explode their first bomb for 18 months) But everyone's.

 

The less stable a government is (And North Korea is a tire rolling down a street wobbling on every move) the more likely they will use them if they have them because They don't have anything to lose. That was why everyone wanted Saddam disarmed. It wasn't that he might have them, he had already proven with Chemical weapons that he would use them if he did.

 

I wrote my own version of the Eugenics War from Star Trek, and in doing research, i came up with 40 nations that could have weapons, nine of which are known to possess them.

 

After the fact, I found that my list matches the 'nuclear watchdog list' for possible nations. Most I would not trust with a BB gun

[machievelli]

So, upside: they're not like America...downside: people are starving because the insane dictator is spending all of the people's money on nuclear weapons and threatening the world's greatest superpower instead of letting the economy thrive.

 

When are people going to realise that America really isn't that bad?

 

Looking at those pictures brought to mind cities in third-world Africa that I've visited. When it gets right down to it, if the Clinton admin hadn't given North Korea nuclear technology, it'd be totally irrelevant in terms of global politics.

 

But it wasn't Kim Jong Il that started this dance. It was his father, and thanks to them bothm, we have people starving for the last fifty years, and being told it is not the fault of their government, but thos nasty americans. If we hadn't assisted South Korea, and convinced ther UN to help, they would all be fat and happy. Just ask any NK commisar.

[machievelli]

I don't deny that. But my point still stands: Bush ruined the already-weakened diplomatic efforts with North Korea. Do you think it's a coincidence that just as Bush declares North Korea evil, it announcens that it's resuming its nuclear arms production? I don't.

 

Children of the Secret State

 

Spooky movie about North Korea.

 

My question is what diplomatic efforts are you speaking of? I know for a fact that except for Clinton's confused and lackluster attemps in the late 90s, the US and Korea hadn;t talked directly since 1953 except for an occasional screamning match at Panmunjon. Bush chose those nation for a reason. Iraq had prvoen under Saddam that they were willing to use whatever weapon they had. Iraq was screaming and still is that unless Israel dies, the Mahdi cannot return. And North Korea has shown a marked propensity to sell anything and everything in their arsenal to the highest bidder.

 

When Bush repeated Kennedy's Cuban Missile Crisis speech, that any attack with nuclear weapons would be considered a direct attack on us, it drew a line. Go ahead, start a war with the South. But if you drop one nuke, the survivors can paint the lines on the glass parking lot you have for a country afterward.

[machievelli]

They are also probably your only defence against pre-emptive military action by the USA.. which is why everyone labeled the "axis of evil" is currently scrambling to get them as soon as possible.

 

 

Actually to the children that run a lot of countries, they are a status symbol. 'Look at us, we sit at the big guys table!'

 

But look at the one nation that not only gave them up, but swore never to develop them again.

 

When South Africa went from Apartheid to majority rule, Mandella accepted the position of the White goernment to totally remove nuclear weapons, which SA had already developed. They called in the same organization the Iranians and Iraq under Saddam refused to accept (The IAEA) and they destroyed every last vestige of that program.

 

It can be done if the will give up their toys but it's like the idiot that looks at gas prices here in the US and goes out and buys a Hummer anyway!

[Jae Onasi]

I don't deny that. But my point still stands: Bush ruined the already-weakened diplomatic efforts with North Korea. Do you think it's a coincidence that just as Bush declares North Korea evil, it announcens that it's resuming its nuclear arms production? I don't.

 

I don't believe it ever stopped its nuclear arms production, which had started before Bush was President. It just stopped doing it out in the open for awhile.

 

North Korea's the one who's broken off talks, IIRC. The country's run by a megalomaniac with little grasp on reality, and he's playing a very dangerous game of brinksmanship. We're more than happy to come to the table to talk. Unstable governments + nuclear weapons = explosively dangerous situation, pun not intended. Since the US is the primary target for a lot of countries, we'd really like to ratchet down the danger potential. I prefer not to glow from radiation, thank you.

[machievelli]

I don't believe it ever stopped its nuclear arms production, which had started before Bush was President. It just stopped doing it out in the open for awhile.

 

North Korea's the one who's broken off talks, IIRC. The country's run by a megalomaniac with little grasp on reality, and he's playing a very dangerous game of brinksmanship. We're more than happy to come to the table to talk. Unstable governments + nuclear weapons = explosively dangerous situation, pun not intended. Since the US is the primary target for a lot of countries, we'd really like to ratchet down the danger potential. I prefer not to glow from radiation, thank you.

 

 

The prblem is how to deal with him. When homicidal children have WMDs, the only way to removed them is to take them away.

 

If the US had not squandered all of it's political capital on an unnecessary invasion of Iraq, we could have dealt with the Idjit. And I am not talking about occupying them and taking what resources they do not have. As much as people say 'it's all about the oil' I do not believe that is the case. Both Venezuela and and Mexico are a damn sight closer, they like us about as much as Saddam does, and between them could supply what we're not getting from Iraq.

[Jae Onasi]

North Korea doesn't have any resources left to take away even if we wanted to go in and occupy it.

I'm just a little surprised that China or Japan hasn't made more of a move. They're much closer, and Kim's not the most reasonable guy. I'd be even more concerned if I were a Chinese, Japanese, or S. Korean citizen.

[machievelli]

North Korea doesn't have any resources left to take away even if we wanted to go in and occupy it.

I'm just a little surprised that China or Japan hasn't made more of a move. They're much closer, and Kim's not the most reasonable guy. I'd be even more concerned if I were a Chinese, Japanese, or S. Korean citizen.

 

 

North Korea has only three resources, coal, iron, and uranium.

 

As for the asian nations, North Korea has stated several times that the only ones they want to talk to is the US, and every one else can p*** off.

 

The problem is, Japan according to the COnstitution we wroet and demanded that they ratify, they cannot go to war because article 9 states 'the Japanese people from this day forward forswear war as an option of diplomacy'. It took a special act of their Diet in 1953 to create a self defense force (Which seems to spend most of it's time getting it's butts kicked by Godzilla).

 

As for South Korea, if both North and South Mobilize, they have almost exactly the same number of troops, about 2 million each. North Korea is more mountainous, and the South could not carry forth a successful offensive in the long run without assistance from take a wild guess.

 

China cannot be a belligerent without admitting that Marxism is a total failure. They after all have been the ones buying produce, steel and coal from the North all these years, keeping their economy afloat the way Russia used to with Cuban sugar.