The future of the U.S. military

[Emperor Devon]

Why do you believe, when it happen that it will be very expensive?

 

Of course it will.

 

What small ship?

 

You mean what small ships. Haven't you heard of NASA? They've sent ships into space many times, and they weren't cheap.

 

Also did you download the book?

 

No, I didn't.

 

Do you believe we are close to a unified field theory?

 

What does the unification of all fundamental forces and elementary particles have to do with the ludicrous idea of space fleets?

 

We will be in a war over resources as a result of that catastrophe.

 

That doesn't have anything to do with space fleets either.

[Windu Chi]

Of course it will.

 

 

 

You mean what small ships. Haven't you heard of NASA? They've sent ships into space many times, and they weren't cheap.

 

 

 

No, I didn't.

 

 

 

What does the unification of all fundamental forces and elementary particles have to do with the ludicrous idea of space fleets?

 

 

 

That doesn't have anything to do with space fleets either.

 

Of course I heard of NASA.

 

If we develop fusion or antimatter reactors it won't be that expensive as you put it.

 

Well with the unification of all fundamental forces of the universe that discovery will allow physicists and engineers to develop wormholes, a hyperspace drive and warpdrives.

 

That will make that "ludicrous idea of space fleets" a reality after the beginning of galactic colonization.

 

I was making a point with my comment that we will always have wars no matter where we go.

 

Maybe you should download the book to see what I mean.

 

Before you start becoming less optimistic about the "ludicrous idea of space fleets".

 

It will tell you what the unification of all the forces will allow us to do.

 

If you are interested about it, of course.

[Emperor Devon]

This is too amusing. I can't believe I'm actually debating the creation of fleets in space this century.

[Windu Chi]

This is too amusing. I can't believe I'm actually debating the creation of fleets in space this century.

Can you take it seriously.

 

Because the military is taking it seriously.

 

It is not a joke.

 

Also it is about damn time we have these type of discussions and don't shy away from these discussions.

[Tyrion]

If we develop fusion or antimatter reactors it won't be that expensive as you put it.

 

Unless it costs quite a bit to construct anti-matter reactors. Just because we develop something doesn't mean it becomes instantly inexpensive; take for instance the nasa space shuttles we've had for fourty years.

 

Well with the unification of all fundamental forces of the universe that discovery will allow physicists and engineers to develop wormholes, a hyperspace drive and warpdrives.

 

You mean the fundamental forces that Stephen Hawking helped discover? I very much doubt, though, that they'll use such things like "warpdrives" and "hyperspace drives." Afterall, those things are just mere creations of sci-fi television.

 

That will make that "ludicrous idea of space fleets" a reality after the beginning of galactic colonization.

 

We still have a ways to go. If history is any indication, there are the baby steps of planetary colonization and efficient sub-solar transportation: there's quite a leap from Earth to the next solar system.

 

And as an aside, could you please try and form your thoughts into coherent thoughts? Single-sentence remarks are rather annoying to try and read, let alone discuss.

[Windu Chi]

Unless it costs quite a bit to construct anti-matter reactors. Just because we develop something doesn't mean it becomes instantly inexpensive; take for instance the nasa space shuttles we've had for fourty years.

 

 

 

You mean the fundamental forces that Stephen Hawking helped discover? I very much doubt, though, that they'll use such things like "warpdrives" and "hyperspace drives." Afterall, those things are just mere creations of sci-fi television.

 

 

 

We still have a ways to go. If history is any indication, there are the baby steps of planetary colonization and efficient sub-solar transportation: there's quite a leap from Earth to the next solar system.

 

And as an aside, could you please try and form your thoughts into coherent thoughts? Single-sentence remarks are rather annoying to try and read, let alone discuss.

 

What the hell are you talking about, Steven Hawking only help explain the physics of Blackholes and theroize that blackholes emit radiation.

By giving proof that blackholes don't destroy the information it absorbs.

Also he contribute to the cosmology of the Big Bang Theory.

Steven Hawking did not help discover the Standard Model of particle physics.

You do know he is a cosmologist and a theorectical physictist?

He did'nt help discover any of the fundamental forces of the universe.

 

The concept of warpdrive may be a concept of science fiction.

But thanks to a Quantum physictist named Miguel Alcubierre physicists are taking warpdrive seriously now.

Also hyperspace is not just a concept of science fiction.

Physictists are taking the concept of hyperspace seriously now.

Hyperspce is similar to the warpdrive concept.

[Tyrion]

What the hell are you talking about, Steven Hawking only help explain Blackholes and theroize that blackholes emit radiation.

By giving proof that blackhole don't destroy the information it absorb.

Also he contribute to the cosmology of the Big Bang Theory.

Steven Hawking did not help discover the Standard Model of particle physics.

You do know he is a cosmologist and a theorectical physictist?

He did'nt help discover any of the fundamental forces of the universe.

 

Blackholes are related in concept to wormholes, as they both deal with the bending/manipulation of the universe. Quantum physics, which Hawking worked on, clearly is one of the key sciences needed to go much faster than we currently can now. As the wikipedia entry states, some of his research contributed to the theory of General Relativity- again, another necessary science for space travel.

 

So while his works are indeed theoretical, they would still ultimately contribute to whatever mechanical marvels will launch us into deep space.

 

The concept of warpdrive may be a concept of science fiction.

But thanks to a Quantum physictist named Miguel Alcubierre physicists are taking warpdrive seriously now.

Also hyperspace is not just a concept of fiction.

Physictist are taking the concept of hyperspace seriously now.

Hyperspce is similar to the warpdrive concept.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

 

Largely theoretical as of right now. Hyperspace and warpdrives are more than theoretical at this point, too. It makes for very nice conversational talk, but they still have lots of work to go through.

 

(By the way, you're still not forming coherent thoughts: all you did was take your single sentences and mushed them together.)

[Windu Chi]

Blackholes are related in concept to wormholes, as they both deal with the bending/manipulation of the universe. Quantum physics, which Hawking worked on, clearly is one of the key sciences needed to go much faster than we currently can now. As the wikipedia entry states, some of his research contributed to the theory of General Relativity- again, another necessary science for space travel.

 

So while his works are indeed theoretical, they would still ultimately contribute to whatever mechanical marvels will launch us into deep space.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

 

Largely theoretical as of right now. Hyperspace and warpdrives are more than theoretical at this point, too. It makes for very nice conversational talk, but they still have lots of work to go through.

 

(By the way, you're still not forming coherent thoughts: all you did was take your single sentences and mushed them together.)

 

 

Actualy it was his merger of General Relativity and Quantum Field Theory

that lead to his discovery of Blackhole Radiation.

If want to see his paper, Miguel Alcubierre go here http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0009013.

Also, Tyrion Kip S.Thorne contribute to wormhole physics.

[Emperor Devon]

Because the military is taking it seriously.

 

It is not a joke.

 

 

And they'll be formed in four to fourteen years?

[Windu Chi]

 

And they'll be formed in four to fourteen years?

Who said four to fourteen years?

Oh forget it! You still think it is a joke.

[Emperor Devon]

Who said four to fourteen years?

 

the US and NATO militaries possible interest in forming space forces by 2010 or 2020

 

2006 + 4 = 2010. 2006 + 14 = 2020.

 

Oh forget it! You still think it is a joke.

 

Either way I don't believe it.

[Windu Chi]

2006 + 4 = 2010. 2006 + 14 = 2020.

 

 

 

Either way I don't believe it.

Of course those dates are'nt reasonable

no more because sh**t happens.

 

Well ok that's your belief Devon.

 

Also I still recommend you download the NewGrav3.zip book it is a interesting book.

 

Unless, the book is to technical for your taste!

[Jae Onasi]

I don't think the military will do it. I think big business will do it, as long as they can see and earn a profit. I don't think it'll happen for quite a few years, however. There's just too much to learn yet. We're still trying to figure out the effects of extended stays (more than a couple months) in space on the human body, among many other things.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Scandinavian Science Illustrated ran two interesting articles some issues away from each others. One was about mining of uninhabited moons and asteroids by means of mining robots, one was about the problems bound to result from the fact that there can be no sovereignity, ownership, or even laws away from Earth. So in effect, if mining becomes large-scale (by means of unmanned robots), we can expect hostilities to occur unless laws, agreements, and treaties are changed.

 

Funny how no one makes movies about that. It's a thousand times more likely than UFOs invading Earth:confused:. Oh well.

 

It's probably an inevitable, logical outcome for our species, though... especially once we start colonizing nearby bodies within our solar system and what appears now as national pride starts to assert itself on planetary scales, and we start to need to be able to defend ourselves from our own colonies, there will be a desperate need for such fleets.

Empire Earth had an expansion pack with a campaign enacting just that scenario.

 

Man colonizes Mars, a union of Asian nations ("UFAR", or the "United Federation of Asian Republics") drives every other nation off Mars, making Mars a territory of UFAR; the UFAR government on Earth treats the colony unfairly; The colony rebels and declares sovereignity; A fight erupts between Earth (including its Lunar colony) and Mars; Mars wins, becoming an independent nation.

 

If the campaign isn't inspired by the events that brought about the birth of the USA, I'll eat my blaster pistol:p.

 

Bottom line: While Windu seems to want star fleets just for the sake of coolness of star fleets, the rest of us really do not see a need. There are no UFOs about, there's no war going on down on Earth that requires space superiority, and we wouldn't need whole fleets of warships to intercept asteroids (and according to astronomers, we still have 400 years before we'll intersect the course of a large object that's maybe going to collide with us).

[Jae Onasi]

So in effect, if mining becomes large-scale (by means of unmanned robots), we can expect hostilities to occur unless laws, agreements, and treaties are changed.

 

Funny how no one makes movies about that. It's a thousand times more likely than UFOs invading Earth:confused:. Oh well.

 

If lawmaking were as sexy as UFOs invading the Earth, we'd all be glued to C-Span.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

If lawmaking were as sexy as UFOs invading the Earth, we'd all be glued to C-Span.

No, no, not the law-making, humans fighting each others over mines!

[edlib]

Funny how no one makes movies about that. It's a thousand times more likely than UFOs invading Earth:confused:. Oh well.

No movies that I can think of,.. but several sci-fi books used that as a theme.

 

The first one that springs to mind are Stephen R. Donaldson's Gap cycle.

 

But I think Larry Niven had a few books with conflicts over space mining as a plot point... I think. (It's been a very long time since I've read any Niven...)

[Jae Onasi]

No, no, not the law-making, humans fighting each others over mines!

 

Humor mode way, way on....Oooh, Mine TV! Sweaty dirty men battle it out to see who can bring up the biggest load of ore while company presidents battle it out on the golf course, and the United Planets sits in endless committees passing cease-and-desist orders that the companies completely ignore. Ah, the intrigue. Sign me up!

[Windu Chi]

Scandinavian Science Illustrated ran two interesting articles some issues away from each others. One was about mining of uninhabited moons and asteroids by means of mining robots, one was about the problems bound to result from the fact that there can be no sovereignity, ownership, or even laws away from Earth. So in effect, if mining becomes large-scale (by means of unmanned robots), we can expect hostilities to occur unless laws, agreements, and treaties are changed.

 

Funny how no one makes movies about that. It's a thousand times more likely than UFOs invading Earth:confused:. Oh well.

 

Empire Earth had an expansion pack with a campaign enacting just that scenario.

 

Man colonizes Mars, a union of Asian nations ("UFAR", or the "United Federation of Asian Republics") drives every other nation off Mars, making Mars a territory of UFAR; the UFAR government on Earth treats the colony unfairly; The colony rebels and declares sovereignity; A fight erupts between Earth (including its Lunar colony) and Mars; Mars wins, becoming an independent nation.

 

If the campaign isn't inspired by the events that brought about the birth of the USA, I'll eat my blaster pistol:p.

 

Bottom line: While Windu seems to want star fleets just for the sake of coolness of star fleets, the rest of us really do not see a need. There are no UFOs about, there's no war going on down on Earth that requires space superiority, and we wouldn't need whole fleets of warships to intercept asteroids (and according to astronomers, we still have 400 years before we'll intersect the course of a large object that's maybe going to collide with us).

 

The U.S. military and NATO is interested in space dominance, they have had the worry about protecting satellites from adversaries. Satellite Protection

This is where the interest of spacefleets came in, for future of Earth.

Of course when we start to explore solar system and colonize Mars or Venus ,if we ever figue out how the hell to colonize Venus.

With this exploration, the military of Earth will have interest in space protection of colonies of course.

They will definitely want to take up guard where ever humans go in the solar system and later in the rest of the Milky Way.

 

To those of you who don't believe in the U.S. and NATO interest in space forces,

the U.S. military has always had interest in space dominance since the first American satellites was put into orbit.

They don't care if we don't see no reason for the creation of space forces.

 

If you are not aware how interested they have been, then click on this link http://www.fas.org/spp/eprint/ and explore the e-prints topics on the page.

If none of you did'nt click on the link yet.

The reason that I believe 2040 will be the maximum date range from now for the creation of spacefleets.

Because the U.S. Air Force is working on black projects that are still classified.

I don't believe fighter jets will be rolling out of those projects anymore.

The only other reasonable explaination will have to be, spacefighters.

You may laugh at my belief, but if they are interested in going fast as Mach 10(7612.1599856836mph) or 20(15224.3199713672mph) the most efficient use of those velocities will be flying outside the atmosphere of Earth.

Where they won't have to deal with very high temperture plasmas that will develop because of very high aerodynamic friction, that jet fighters will encounter in the atomsphere at those transonic speeds.

This effect will produce a very high drag coefficient that will make a jet very unstable in flight.

Also the pilots will experience very high g-forces that will make it very hard to maneuver and also, dangerous for the pilot to survive those forces.

To have a effective operation at those speeds for a jet figher it will be force to go to higher altitudes for more effectivity in maneuverability in combat.

You only can go so hight before you enter space where jet engines will become useless.Also another problem aerospace engineers will have to deal with at thoses transonics speeds is the problem of air intake efficiency in relation to air density ,flow velocities and air compression ratios per unit volume that will occur at those speeds in the jet engines.

The air will flow to fast to have a specific air density per unit volume in the intakes to efficiently ignite with the fuel injectors, the flow field will become so chaotic that the fuel that interact with the air won't fire effectivity to produce a specific thrust to keep the jet flying.

The engines will fail and be choke of air, the same effect at high altitudes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_engine

 

So, if the military are'nt building startships yet they may have already been building starfighers in those USAF black classified projects still ongoing. Starship Designs

 

The USAF is rumor to still have 16 black projects still classified.

[Ray Jones]

You may laugh at my belief, but if they are interested in going fast as Mach 10(7612.1599856836mph) or 20(15224.3199713672mph) the most efficient use of those velocities will be flying outside the atmosphere of Earth.

You may laugh if I'd assume that the interest in achieving those velocities might not necessarily aim at having fighter jets. It may as well be useful for traveling or transport purposes.

 

Also the pilots will experience very high g-forces that will make it very hard to maneuver and also, dangerous for the pilot to survive those forces.

You know that a pilot has to handle exact the same G-forces in space, too? The whole machine has to handle those. Pulling a simple looping at Mach 20 might put you in a situation where you find yourself being outrun by your own space ship.

 

To have a effective operation at those speeds for a jet figher it will be force to go to higher altitudes for more effectivity in maneuverability in combat.

No "air" to "air" combat is ever fought at super- nor hypersonic speeds, mainly because of G-forces and maneuverability. And even if we put these things aside, I doubt the human mind is able to provide reaction times needed to get that done. I mean, there are clearly differences between a fight and a flight following a straight route, which is often the case at supersonic speeds.

 

You only can go so hight before you enter space where jet engines will become useless.

Again, jet engines are not only used for figther jets. Driving technologies for use in space are generally needed, not just for the military.

[Windu Chi]

You may laugh if I'd assume that the interest in achieving those velocities might not necessarily aim at having fighter jets. It may as well be useful for traveling or transport purposes.

 

Again, jet engines are not only used for figther jets. Driving technologies for use in space are generally needed, not just for the military.

Do you actually believe that U.S. military is building transport vehicles in those classified black projects?

[Ray Jones]

I actually "believe" that they are rather searching for new driving technologies in the first place. This would be essential for both, military and civilian uses. Having those driving technologies first and exclusive should make them feel much more comfortable than the thought that other, more "unstable" parties you find around the globe. Hence the secrecy.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

The U.S. military and NATO is interested in space dominance, they have had the worry about protecting satellites from adversaries. Satellite Protection

And for that you need starfleets or X-Wings? I doubt it.

 

Of course when we start to explore solar system and colonize Mars or Venus ,if we ever figue out how the hell to colonize Venus.

And since we won't be colonizing Mars or Venus for an eternity, yet...

 

The reason that I believe 2040 will be the maximum date range from now for the creation of spacefleets.

Because the U.S. Air Force is working on black projects that are still classified.

All militaries classify projects, documents, and what have you.

 

Heck, you can't even look at strangers' medical journals because they're confidential. When I join the visitation service, I'll have to make an oath of confidence and will thus be unable to tell you about what I hear from the person I'm caring for. Doesn't mean we'll sit down and talk about UFOs NASA star fleets.

 

I don't believe fighter jets will be rolling out of those projects anymore.

And I do, after I read several Science Illustrated articles about unmanned vehicles (everything from trucks with auto-pilots programmed to follow the truck in front of them - which we actually have working and promising prototypes of today - to fighter jets flying by themselves with a pilot on board).

 

The future is one of vehicles plotting destinations and driving or flying by themselves. I'd be very surprised if the US government didn't work at making their own fighter jets unmanned.

 

The only other reasonable explaination will have to be, spacefighters.

Excuse me, did you say "reasonable"?

 

You might as well say they're opting for Barracudda-class Flying Subs [/X-COM TFTD reference].

 

The USAF is rumor to still have 16 black projects still classified.

Not more?

[Windu Chi]

And for that you need starfleets or X-Wings? I doubt it.

Well that is your belief.

That's the future of the military, If you don't believe or not.

 

And since we won't be colonizing Mars or Venus for an eternity, yet...

 

All militaries classify projects, documents, and what have you.

 

Heck, you can't even look at strangers' medical journals because they're confidential. When I join the visitation service, I'll have to make an oath of confidence and will thus be unable to tell you about what I hear from the person I'm caring for. Doesn't mean we'll sit down and talk about UFOs.

 

You keep considering that I am always talking about UFOs,

because I am the resident UFO nut here on the forum.

But consider exploring the topics on the link e-Prints - Space and Special Weapons and then come back with your response.

 

And I do, after I read several Science Illustrated articles about unmanned vehicles (everything from trucks with auto-pilots programmed to follow the truck in front of them - which we actually have working and promising prototypes of today - to fighter jets flying by themselves with a pilot on board).

 

The future is one of vehicles plotting destinations and driving or flying by themselves. I'd be very surprised if the US government didn't work at making their own fighter jets unmanned.

Excuse me, but I hope that never happen that's is a stupid idea of the air force.

Real pilots don't like that idea ethier, of course they don't agree.

Would you actually want with high confidence, robots fighting wars of the future.

Did you see the Terminator Trilogy?

 

 

Excuse me, did you say "reasonable"?

Yes I said, "reasonable"

open your mind.

Things don't always have a simple explanation.

Occum razor, don't always apply to the situation.

People who always depend Occum razor, are biasing.

The situation!

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Real pilots don't like that idea ethier, of course they don't agree.

Please quote one pilot who'd rather put his own life on the line than leave the fighting to a non-living remote-controlled machine that even gets the job done better than him.

 

I'm sure you've met this guy already:

 

Would you actually want with high confidence, robots fighting wars of the future.

Definetly. Just like I'd rather have machines work in factories or dangerous workplaces day after day.

 

Having robots fight is far better than having young boys and girls fight and die. They've got only one life (OK, so robots do, too, but you get my point:D).

 

Did you see the Terminator Trilogy?

No. But if it interests you, I did see the Matrix trilogy and some other works on machines suddenly rebelling. None of them have any basis in reality.

 

Unmanned planes (like the UAV) can't suddenly rebel and decide to kill all humans more than your calculator can rebel and decide to give you only wrong answers. They're non-thinking things. If they're programmed to do something, they'll do it, and only it - unless you scripted the program wrong, in which case it'll do something weird or crash. And I doubt the army will field badly programmed robots.

 

I can picture the headlines: "A beta version of the UAV-2 killed sixteen people today due to a program bug. After sending an Illegal Operation error message to Command, it accidentally ran pwnage.exe ran itself into a school-bus full of children, blowing it to kingdom come. The Army apologizes for the incident, blaming the publisher for rushing the program and thus not allowing time for play-testing. The UAV-2 1,02 patch, due out in three months, should correct the problem. The SDK for Army engineers will be released as scheduled on the 4/3/2011 14/5/2011 1/12/2011 31/5/2013 14/9/2034 in the near future".

 

I guess you could object, "but what if some unscoupolous engineering team deliberately programs them to kill everything they see"? Yup, that's a possibility as much as the engineers sabotaging a jet fighter to suddenly explode, a submarine to suddenly spring leaks, or a missile to epxlode when it's armed, killing the pilot of the plane carrying it.

 

Sabotage has always existed and will always exist. Just ask the German submariners who were naïve enough to draft Frenchmen to tend their submarines for them. The most noteworthy case is the crew that found a dead dog in their fresh-water tank, courtesy of some anti-U-bootwaffe Frenchman. Yummie.

 

You keep considering that I am always talking about UFOs (...)

Sorry. Post corrected.