Kreia handmaiden's mother?

[reven0123]

she is not her mother it's just unintentional conjecture on obsidians part i tired of seeing this argument every were i go were this game is being discussed

[Jediphile]

she is not her mother it's just unintentional conjecture on obsidians part

 

According to who? You? Who appointed you judge and jury on the topic?

 

i tired of seeing this argument every were i go were this game is being discussed

 

Fair enough. After all, you have every right to your opinion, whether I agree with it or not. Feel free not to click on subjects clearly marked as dealing with this in the future. You may be tired by this topic, but that doesn't mean the rest of us aren't allowed to pursue the discussion.

 

Jediphile, I’m sorry but I find this post to be an 'attack' style post. While discussion is one thing, these kinds of responses are not discussion. You did something similar to Vaelastraz above. Perhaps practice what you preach, if a post irritates you feel free to not respond to it. -RH

 

@RedHawke. I disagree violently. Besides, why I am told off, when the person I respond to is clearly responds to something that annoys him, and even says so himself. I could make a better case, but I do not wish to annoy anyone else here. I would be untruthful, however, if I did not admit that I feel you're being biased against me and singling me out here. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

 

Jediphile, I’m sorry you feel that way, but the warning is valid... check your PM inbox. -RH

 

@RedHawke. Fair enough, but when I'm the ONLY person being told off in public, then your bias is showing. You do realize that, don't you? And as I told you in your PM box, you would not have had to tell me to cool it if you had done so to others first. I don't see that I have given offense here, but even if I did, I know I was not the first to do so - Jediphile

 

Jediphile, I'm sorry but there is no bias here, you do realise as I told you in my PM to you that I did previously warn everyone to "cool down" in this very thread. -RH

[ChAiNz.2da]

We've never seen Kreia before she fell to the dark side. The "exiled cutscene" is when she is cast from power by the other Sith Lords, who then assumed her power. You'd think she had already fallen before then...

True enough

 

However in every instance in the history of the games.. the DS never corrupted ones appearance with "aging". Full-blown DS transitions (even Kreia's or Palpatine's if we stretch into the movies) has always been represented by 'veiny, pale, undeath-like' features.. but not one wrinkle in the whole lot. Palpy was already an old fart when he got all uglified

 

Why would Kreia's transitions be any different?

[The Source]

Do you think that kreia/darth traya is handmaiden's mother?

Ah... yeah i found something on wookiepedia about kreia might be arren kae but i want your opinion any way

 

I think wookiepedia has some good points like:

-Kreia knows Brianna/handmaiden very well

-Kae is said to be exiled because of the birth of her child, and Kreia to be exiled for Revan's fall but near the end of the game Master Kavar on dantoine says: "I thought you died during the Mandalorian Wars," which would mean that Kreia could not have been exiled for Revan's "fall," since this occured after the Mandalorian Wars.

- The fact that both Kae and Kreia are referenced as being Revan's first master

-Atris's exclamation of "Kreia? That is not her name

 

there are more but ill not put them all here

 

So what you think?

Kreia is the Handmaiden's father. Lol...

 

Truthfully, I don't see a connection.

[Maverick5770]

Honestly I doubt it, there are a few things that seem to hint at it, but theres more against it. And since the Female Exile story seems to fit together a little bit better than the male story, I really doubt it. Besides, something as ugly as kriea having somthing as hot as Brianna, ugh.

[Shem]

Right. None at all...

This picture proves my point. Those two look nothing alike.

[Totenkopf]

Originally Posted by Shem

Kreia beautiful? Oh boy!

 

..............Maybe an Ord Mantell farmer went to town on her or it could just be all that hard living Atton suggested. Besides, how old is the battleaxe anyway?

[Melly]

IIRC (and I might not) one of the devs said she was in her sixties.

[Jediphile]

This picture proves my point. Those two look nothing alike.

 

To each his own - I think the exact opposite.

[Manny C]

Right. None at all...

 

Kreia doesn't give us a specific time for when she was exiled. .

 

no but more light is shed on her trial in the holovid of the exile's trial, they mention her and her teachings, which would insinuate that she was not tried until the exile was tried, which was after malachor V, and after the end of the Mandalorian Wars.

[The Architect]

no but more light is shed on her trial in the holovid of the exile's trial, they mention her and her teachings, which would insinuate that she was not tried until the exile was tried, which was after malachor V, and after the end of the Mandalorian Wars.

 

She could not have been trailed after the Mandalorian Wars, because Master Kavar says to Kreia on Dantooine "I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars." Look, this is just my opinion, but to me, I think Kreia is definitely Kae.

 

I don’t feel like typing a mammoth post explaining why I think Kreia is Kae today, but I will some other day, perhaps tomorrow. All I’ll say at this stage is that it cannot be proven either way if Kreia is or isn’t Kae, but I’m convinced that she is. Nothing has come up which has convinced me otherwise so far.

 

By the way I agree with Jediphile, I can actually see the resemblance between Kreia and the Handmaiden. I think they do look alike; just try to imagine Kreia without wrinkles and those weird eyes.

[Manny C]

i could have sworn he said "i thought you had died after the mandalorian wars", but ill hav to check again

[Master Kavar]

...However in every instance in the history of the games.. the DS never corrupted ones appearance with "aging". Full-blown DS transitions (even Kreia's or Palpatine's if we stretch into the movies) has always been represented by 'veiny, pale, undeath-like' features.. but not one wrinkle in the whole lot. Palpy was already an old fart when he got all uglified

 

Why would Kreia's transitions be any different?

 

I defer to the only person onboard the Ebon Hawk who knew Kreia before the fall, Mical:

 

Mical: I know you - not even the markings of the dark side can hide it. Why have you done this?

 

I think that's a pretty strong endorsement from Mical, that the dark side has sufficiently haggered Kreia's face enough to make her appear even older than she is.

 

I too believe that Kae and Kreia were the same person, and obsidian was just playing it subtle to avoid fans critiszim for the whole "Luke, I am your father!" bit. That's what I like about the whole conspiracy, it's subtle, like everything Kreia does.

[reven0123]

According to who? You? Who appointed you judge and jury on the topic?

 

 

 

Fair enough. After all, you have every right to your opinion, whether I agree with it or not. Feel free not to click on subjects clearly marked as dealing with this in the future. You may be tired by this topic, but that doesn't mean the rest of us aren't allowed to pursue the discussion.

 

i never said i was judge and jury on this and nor do i claim to be all i was doing was pointing out a fact that is in the game if you lisiten and pay attention to the story which can be difficult at times you will realise the kreia and the handmaidens mother are two completely different people and not one and the same

[Jediphile]

all i was doing was pointing out a fact that is in the game if you lisiten and pay attention to the story which can be difficult at times you will realise the kreia and the handmaidens mother are two completely different people and not one and the same

 

But it's precisely listening closely and paying attention to details that has led me to conclude that Kreia may indeed be Arren Kae. Note that I say "may", because there is no conclusive evidence, though there is circumstantial evidence to suggest it (many similarities between Kae and Kreia).

 

But neither is there anything that proves Kreia is not Kae. I've participated in this topic before, and nobody has been able to completely confirm or completely reject the idea. And we have looked VERY closely. I'm not the only one thinking Kreia may be Kae either, and was initially against it myself on the same basis that most who don't like the idea are, which seems to me to be primarily on a basis of shock and disgust. Which is fine as far as opinions go. But it neither proves nor disproves anything.

 

Evidence would seem to come from observations in the game's plot, events, and dialogue, regardless of whether we like their consequences or not. And I have yet to see an observation that indisputably established that Kreia cannot be Kae, especially when we consider that most of the information on the topic comes from Kreia herself, who is clearly trying to hide her identity, most obviously from the Disciple.

[The Architect]

i never said i was judge and jury on this and nor do i claim to be all i was doing was pointing out a fact that is in the game if you lisiten and pay attention to the story which can be difficult at times you will realise the kreia and the handmaidens mother are two completely different people and not one and the same

 

What the hell are you babbling about? "If you listen and pay attention to the story which can be difficult at times you will realise that Kreia and the Handmaiden's mother are two completely different people and not one and the same.”

 

What? I must have missed something too, because if you listen and pay attention to the story yourself, you will realise that it cannot be proven either way if Kreia is or isn't the Handmaiden's mother.

 

When Jediphile said "According to who? You? Who appointed you judge and jury on the topic?" He was referring to the fact that you sound as if your opinion is factual and unquestionable, that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, as if your the arbiter on the topic, when your not!

 

You say it's a fact that Kreia is not the Handmaiden's mother, but show no proof of this. Why should we believe you, since you cannot provide any proof? As I've said, there is no definitive proof at this stage to determine whether Kreia is or isn't the Handmaiden's mother, so the next time someone disagrees with you, and rightly so in Jediphile's case, and in my case, do not say things such as 'if you listen and pay attention to the story'.

 

It is uncalled for, and impolite, and until you can prove that Kreia isn't Kae, don't insult anyone in any way who disagrees with you, especially Jediphile, as he evidently does pay attention to the story, which he has demonstrated in many of his posts on here and when he used to be active on the Obsidian forums.

 

I challenge anyone who says that it's a fact that Kreia isn't Kae to provide their so-called proof of this, because it is not a fact. The same thing can be said vice-versa as well, as it cannot be proven that Kreia is Kae, but the theory has a lot going for it, and IMO, I think Kreia is Kae, but can't prove it...

 

Edit: Jediphile: I didn't see your reply to 'reven0123's' post last night when I replied to his post in your defense. If I had of, there would have been no need for me to post in your defense, as you have already done that yourself.

 

Nevertheless, I still would of had something to say to 'reven0123', because I don't like how he claims as if it's an esatablished fact that Kreia isn't Kae, when he can provide no proof to support that claim.

[Vaelastraz]

Wookieepedia knows how old Brianna and Mical are (25) because that's how old the devs said they were.

 

Damn it, where's all that dev information? I can't believe I don't get to know those things. Is it on obsidian's website?

[Melly]

Damn it, where's all that dev information? I can't believe I don't get to know those things. Is it on obsidian's website?

 

It was in the thread there ages ago (I couldn't tell you which one). One of the devs posted that Mical, Brianna, and I think Mira are all 25.

[General Jerrik]

I have read a few threads about the Arren Kae/Kreia issue, and there is a lot of opposition to this. Maybe I'm not a talented reader, but as far as I can tell no one has offered any evidence that Kreia isn't Arren Kae. Can someone post the facts that I've missed that explain why she can't be?

 

Thanks

[goldberry]

There are no hard facts either way. It just so happens there are alot of people who believe that this was something that was too likely to be ignored. I agree with these people in that there is alot of speculation as to the possibility that since all of the information about Arren Kae comes from Kreia, that Kae IS Kreia. There is of course the time differences in parts of thier lives, but the masters all seem to have some insight into the matter.

 

This will not come to light until K3 is released, and maybe not even then (considering that every single witness is now dead) unless it came from the mouth of Revan, Juhanni, or Bastilla (since they were at the enclave at the time).

[Vaelastraz]

The Exile was at the Academy at that time too, or is she older than Revan?

[Jediphile]

A big problem with some of the discussions that I've been involved with on this topic is that the people who don't like the idea that Kreia might be Kae sometimes assume a position of "Kreia isn't Kae unless those who think so can prove it."

 

In and of itself that's not so bad, unless they refuse to apply the same demand to their own side of the issue, which is not always the case. Those of us who think Kreia might be Kae cannot prove it, but neither can those who think they're different people prove that Kreia isn't Kae. So the discussion is at an impasse, since there is no conclusive evidence either way.

 

And a lot of people just hate the idea and reject it solely on that basis. I know that feeling, since it was my own gut reaction, when I first heard of it. But naturally a gut feeling is not evidence, and once I accepted that and began looking at the clues in the game, the idea seemed less farfetched, though not less disturbing. I didn't like it up front because I didn't want Kreia to be handmaiden's mother. But then I also didn't want Vader to be Luke's father in the original trilogy, and yet he was. There is no particular reason why the same could not be true for Kreia and Brianna, and nobody has been able to shed light on the subject that would make it clear that Kreia is not Kae.

 

And while the initial assumption in the game naturally is that Arren Kae died long ago, Kreia, who is the main source of information on Kae, does not say so...

 

Kreia: "You are spending time with the servant of Atris. I knew her mother. She was a Jedi Knight - a master, named Arren Kae. Jedi are forbidden to have children, and when the crime finally came to light almost a decade later, Kae was exiled. She joined the Mandalorian Wars after the shame of her birth was revealed. Revan welcomed her. And she was... said to be... a skilled warrior. Beautiful. And strong in the Force. The Force flows strongly in the blood of those born from Force Sensitives. I doubt that Arren was any different."

 

Note that Kreia does not say that Kae died. And is it just me or does she make a lot of presumptions about the Handmaiden's potential? She could know more than she wants to admit, which would certainly not be a first for Kreia...

 

But the major clue that Kreia might be Kae comes from the idea of who was Revan's first master, and presumably the last as well, since the game seems to give that honour to both Kreia and Kae.

 

Kreia: "He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself.And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each.But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."

 

Kreia tells us Revan was her padawan - not merely someone studying under her - and that he learned from others after learning from her. Yet the Disciple also sheds some light on this...

 

Disciple: "Revan sought out many other teachers to learn certain techniques. I do not recall who Revan's master was... strange. As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that.And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had.And such teachings and their teachers is why I harbor doubts, why I wonder if something is missing from the Jedi code."

 

Here the Disciple mentions that Kae was Revan's master, when Revan was a padawan - just as Kreia did above, except Kreia put herself as Revan's master then. Now, the Disciple also says that he cannot recall Revan's next master. Some have said that is because it was Kreia and proves that she is not Kae. I don't think so, however. Because that would still make Kae Revan's first master, and note that both Kreia and Disciple agree that Revan returned in his end to his first master, which Kreia says is herself. That would suggest that whomever the Disciple cannot remember cannot be this elusive "first and last master", which is confusing, since it would appear obvious that the forgotten master is Kreia, since she is manipulating Disciple's mind. The way I see it, there are two options here.

 

1. Whomever this forgotten master is doesn't matter. We know from Disciple that Kae was Revan's first master, and that Revan returned to his first master in the end to learn how to leave the order. Kreia tells us pretty much the exact same story, except she puts herself as both Revan's first and last master. I think most of us agree that this last master, who taught Revan how to leave the order, must indeed be Kreia. And since both Kreia and Disciple tell us that the first master was also the last, whoever was Revan's master next doesn't matter to the discussion. It's just someone that Disciple forgot about.

 

2. Assuming Kreia is Kae, this apparent second master after Kae is really still Kreia/Kae, except Kreia has manipulated Disciple's mind so that he remembers this next master as someone else. Essentially, Kreia knows that she cannot remove all memories of Kae, since she had such an impact on Revan, which would not be forgotten, and that losing all knowledge of her would leave gaps in jedi history that are obviously suspicious. So instead she splits Kae into two people in Disciple's mind and then paints Kae as a more benevolent master, while attributing her darker sides only to the second incarnation, which Disciple cannot remember. This allows her to leave his recollection of jedi history intact while hiding her own position in it - or at least her darker aspects.

 

I tend more towards the second option, but however you look at it, Kreia still ends up saying that she was Revan's first and last master, while Disciple tells us that Kae was the first - whomever he cannot remember was either still Kreia/Kae or else it doesn't matter, since it was not Revan's first and last master.

 

Now, while we may doubt Kreia's words, it does seem obvious that she is indeed the master that Revan returned to in the end, and so Revan's last master. She says that Revan was her padawan, and since he returned to her, this would seem to make her this elusive first and last master. Yet Disciple puts the position of Revan's first master on Kae - she is the earliest (=first) master he mentions for Revan, Revan was her padawan (the exact same word that Kreia used), and Revan returned to his first master in the end. If you accept all this, then you must accept that Kreia is Kae. The only way to avoid that conclusion is to question some of the informatioin that Kreia or Disciple has given us above.

 

Now, I'm willing to question a lot of things that Kreia says, but I do find it indisputable that she was indeed Revan's last master. I do not, however, question what Disciple tells us, and since he mentions Kae as Revan's first master and confirms that Revan returned to his first master in the end, then I cannot escape the conclusion that Kreia must be Kae. Quod erat demonstrandum.

 

There are other clues to Kreia being Kae, notably her involvement in the Mandalorian Wars that Kavar mentions at the council and how Kae was allegedly killed in the war, though her body was never recovered in spite of her robes obviously being found. But the above is the major clue.

[goldberry]

The Exile was at the Academy at that time too, or is she older than Revan?

 

They both left for war at the same time, so one would assume that they were at the academy at the same time. I would think that at the time they were either both knights, or the exile was still a padawan.

 

Completely Off-Topic: Was the exile up to the rank of Jedi Knight at the time of the war, and do we know who s/he was trained by?

[Jediphile]

The Exile was at the Academy at that time too, or is she older than Revan?

 

Well, the Disciple mentions being taught by the Exile and notes clear differences between the Exile and Vrook, so you're right that the Exile would have been there at the time right up until the Exile left to join Revan's crusade.

 

Disciple: "I met you on Dantooine, long ago, briefly. You taught us the ways of the Force, how to hear it sing within others, within the life around Dantooine. You taught us the ways of combat, how to hear music within the movements of a lightsaber blade. You taught us how to move within the Force, and see it flow within others. How to see it in the behaviors of others, and use that sight to achieve truth. It is difficult to explain the difference between you and Master Vrook, but I think it is because he was knowledgeable, but not a leader, not a mentor. You were different - we could all feel it. {A little quiet, baring his soul}And I knew that if I were to have a Master, I would want it to be you. And then you went to war."

 

Completely Off-Topic: Was the exile up to the rank of Jedi Knight at the time of the war, and do we know who s/he was trained by?

 

The Exile's status is in question. Judging from the above, it is clear s/he was teaching the younger students, but the holorecording of the discussion between Vrook and Vandar, it is questionable whether the Exile ever reached the rank of jedi knight. Even Vandar admits that s/he is "an average student of the force."

 

As for the Exile's master, that is complete blank - we never hear of this person in the game, which I've always found odd. I even found it suspicious enough to speculate that it might have been kept secret for reasons that might be revealed in KotOR3. I guess time will tell.

[The Architect]

Jediphile: That is precisely why you are a champ, with posts like that (I'm referring to the long one). Apart from your ramblings on the ‘major clue’ suggesting that Kreia may be Kae, I’ll type up my own ‘mini-lecture’ discussing why I think Kreia may be Kae (apart from the ‘major clue’).

 

First of all, when it comes to the situation with Atris, when she says "Kreia? That is not her name" a lot of people think she’s referring to the fact that her name is Darth Traya, however these people are missing the point.

 

Darth Traya is a title, not a name. Is Darth Vader Anakin Skywalker’s real name? No, it isn’t. Who in their right mind would be called “Darth Traya” as their real name? So, if Kreia is not her real name, and Darth Traya is a title and in any event would not be Kreia’s real name, just what the hell is Kreia’s real name?

 

When we look at all the interesting observations that suggest that Kreia may be Arren Kae, and add that to Atris exclamation, it becomes even more likely that she is Arren Kae.

 

And how about the peculiar, modest way Kreia speaks of Arren Kae? What is that all about?

 

Kreia: "You are spending time with the servant of Atris. I knew her mother. She was a Jedi Knight - a master, named Arren Kae. Jedi are forbidden to have children, and when the crime finally came to light almost a decade later, Kae was exiled. She joined the Mandalorian Wars after the shame of her birth was revealed. Revan welcomed her. And she was... said to be... a skilled warrior. Beautiful. And strong in the Force. The Force flows strongly in the blood of those born from Force Sensitive’s. I doubt that Arren was any different."

 

It's also odd how the Exile has no knowledge of Arren Kae at all, despite her being a well-known Jedi Master who fought in the Mandalorian Wars. Is it possible that Kreia is using the force and causing the Exile to 'forget'?

 

Kreia's name is pronounced as if it were a portmanteau of the names "Kae" and "Traya." This is possibly in keeping with the character's personality. Given that she turned her back on both the Jedi Council and the Sith; and combining her name as a Jedi (Kae) with her name as a Sith (Traya), instead embracing the Grey Philosophy... (That one's taken directly from) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Arren_Kae...

 

There is also the whole deal with Kae's body never being recovered (this means that it is possible that Kae did not die). It's also unusual how her robes were recovered (the Handmaiden wears them) but they never recovered the body. What the hell???

 

There's also the whole deal with Kreia and Disciple, how Kreia says something like "You know who I am..." and so fourth. Either way, the dialogue that the Disciple and Kreia exchange aboard the Ebon Hawk definitely 'hints' at the possibility of Kreia being Kae IMO.

 

It's difficult to talk about that though, because I can't remember the dialogue and therefore cannot accurately quote and use the dialogue to support my views, so I'll leave it at that. There are also countless other hints/clues that suggest that Kreia may be Kae, but because of the reasons I mentioned above, I can't discuss those, as I will probably mis-quote.

 

One of the biggest clues for me though is that Kreia tells us she was exiled because of 'Revan's fall' and 'her teachings', however on Dantooine Master Kavar says: "I thought you died in the Mandalorian Wars," which means that Kreia could not have been exiled because of 'her teachings' and 'Revan's fall', 'since this would of had to occur after the Mandalorian Wars, so she is lying about the 'reasons for her exile'.

 

It's also interesting to point out that none of the Jedi Masters call Kreia by her name, they refer to Kreia as 'her' and 'she' during the trial on Coruscant and the meeting on Dantooine. Is it because Kreia might not be her real name? Wait, we already know that it's not, because Atris says so.

 

Anyway, that's all I'll say for now...