Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win

[The Sith'ari]

Yes, I've played K1 and K2 before, I know what Revan has done, but what is so spectacular about any of it? Anyone care to explain? Sure, Revan had a gift to convert others to his/her cause, but I'm not talking about gifts, I'm talking about military tactics. We never did hear about Revan's so called 'genius' acts did we?

 

Maybe you overlooked Canderous's comments on Revan? How he planned and won the Mandalorian Wars. Though the exact details were not lay out, it is certain from what Canderous said that Revan possessed outstanding Military Tactics, not just gifts. Someone must be able to give the quotes.

 

While I agree Revan seems to be overhyped, by some people, one cannot overlook his true abilities as portraited in KotOR. An all-mighty man who's undefeatable? Absolutely crap. But a brilliant strategist strong in the force? An objective comment I'd say.

[Vaelastraz]

Why not? Nihilus wiped out many Jedi on Katarr. Are you trying to tell me that Revan is more powerful than all of them put together? Umm...the answer is no. Revan is already overhyped enough as it is. Besides, the more powerful you are, the easier it is for Nihilus to kill you.

 

 

There is one thing I'd like to ask about Revan. I've heard all this talk about how Revan was a 'brilliant tactician', a 'master strategist' and all this crap, but can anyone explain what Revan has done that is so remarkable?

 

Yes, I've played K1 and K2 before, I know what Revan has done, but what is so spectacular about any of it? Anyone care to explain? Sure, Revan had a gift to convert others to his/her cause, but I'm not talking about gifts, I'm talking about military tactics. We never did hear about Revan's so called 'genius' acts did we?

 

Yes, Nihilus wiped out many Jedi on Katarr. It is not mentioned in detail, but my guess is he did it the same way he intented to do it on Telus.

 

Bringing the ship in an orbit around the planet, then devouring every single last of them from a rather safe distance. How are the Jedi supposed to fight Nihilus from the surface of the planet?

So what I mean is not, that Revan is more powerful than all those Jedi Masters together, but he is probably more powerful than every single one of them. Or at least equal.

 

Now if you assume Revan is on a planet and suddenly Nihilus pops out of hyberspace and devours the world, I would agree. Nihilus wins.

 

Like someone said, if they are warped into an arena, Nihilus would win, unless Revan learned new technics from the True Sith. If they were given time to prepare, I'm sure Revan would find a way to defeat Nihilus. Even 1 on 1.

 

What if brings along an Ysalamiri? No force for both... I wonder who will use that as an advantage?

[Jediphile]

There is one thing I'd like to ask about Revan. I've heard all this talk about how Revan was a 'brilliant tactician', a 'master strategist' and all this crap, but can anyone explain what Revan has done that is so remarkable?

 

Yes, I've played K1 and K2 before, I know what Revan has done, but what is so spectacular about any of it? Anyone care to explain? Sure, Revan had a gift to convert others to his/her cause, but I'm not talking about gifts, I'm talking about military tactics. We never did hear about Revan's so called 'genius' acts did we?

 

Some specific examples, I've noted down...

 

GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force."

 

Kreia: "You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others."

 

Disciple: "Onderon, strangely enough, was unaffected by the Jedi Civil War. It's almost as if Revan didn't want to attack it.Its position and resources on the Rim make it a vital supply line and a guardpost against Outer Rim attacks."

[Emperor Devon]

How he planned and won the Mandalorian Wars.

 

That would have no bearing with Nihilus. He's completely unkillable by regular methods. And no matter how good a strategist Revan is, how would he counter an enemy that wipes out thousands of people on a whim? The only way I can think of would be orbital bombardment, some other type of explosion, or droids (since they're dead to the Force), but none of those are Revan.

[The Architect]

Maybe you overlooked Canderous's comments on Revan? How he planned and won the Mandalorian Wars. Though the exact details were not lay out, it is certain from what Canderous said that Revan possessed outstanding Military Tactics, not just gifts. Someone must be able to give the quotes.

 

While I agree Revan seems to be overhyped, by some people, one cannot overlook his true abilities as portraited in KotOR. An all-mighty man who's undefeatable? Absolutely crap. But a brilliant strategist strong in the force? An objective comment I'd say.

 

No, I know what Canderous said about Revan in K1. Still, as you said, the details of what he/she did weren't laid out. Okay, so a few people say he/she was this 'super genius brilliant tactician' person, but ah, what did he/she do that gave him/her that reputation?

 

Some specific examples, I've noted down...

 

GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force."

 

Kreia: "You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others."

 

Disciple: "Onderon, strangely enough, was unaffected by the Jedi Civil War. It's almost as if Revan didn't want to attack it.Its position and resources on the Rim make it a vital supply line and a guardpost against Outer Rim attacks."

 

I'm aware of all this Jediphile. Umm...I'm not impressed. Should I be? Am I just hard to please, or is all of that just 'meh'? Sure, obviously Revan was a smart man/woman, but words like brilliant, military genius, expert tactician shouldn't be used to describe Revan.

 

Besides, note that GO-TO, Kreia and Disciple are all just speculating. Whether Revan originally sacrificed himself/herself to the dark side or not in the first place is not definitive. We don't know. That remains to be seen.

[CSI]

Eh...Looks like I'll difinitely lose in the dueling in RP. Eh, Revan got a lot of fans.

[Balderdash]

That would have no bearing with Nihilus. He's completely unkillable by regular methods. And no matter how good a strategist Revan is, how would he counter an enemy that wipes out thousands of people on a whim? The only way I can think of would be orbital bombardment, some other type of explosion, or droids (since they're dead to the Force), but none of those are Revan.

There are other ways. Vaelastraz had an interesting point when he/she mentioned those Ysalamir things. If neither one of them could manipulate the force, that might give Revan all the edge he needs. Have they ever been mentioned before in the Old Republic era?

 

And droids are dead to the force, but that doesn't mean that Nihilus couldn't use conventional force powers to wipe them out. I don't think any kind of assassination would work with Nihilus.

[The Sith'ari]

That would have no bearing with Nihilus. He's completely unkillable by regular methods. And no matter how good a strategist Revan is, how would he counter an enemy that wipes out thousands of people on a whim? The only way I can think of would be orbital bombardment, some other type of explosion, or droids (since they're dead to the Force), but none of those are Revan.

 

Maybe distract him with something else and then attack him out of nowhere? This works well esp. with force users, and that's how Nomi Sunrider's husband Andur died. I don't know, just pure imagination.

 

I'm aware of all this Jediphile. Umm...I'm not impressed. Should I be? Am I just hard to please, or is all of that just 'meh'? Sure, obviously Revan was a smart man/woman, but words like brilliant, military genius, expert tactician shouldn't be used to describe Revan.

 

Well, yah you're hard to please

As much as you think Revan shouldn't be described as such, many people regard him as what he is as depicted in the game. I think it's just how the writers of KotOR depict this character, and how Revan is Supposed to be. Coz you can see, it's not just Kreia, not just Go-to, not just Canderous, but there're multiple characters who endorse the same brilliant-strategist image of Revan. Of course, this is just an objective observation; one can always hold his or her own opinions and feelings towards any character.

 

Besides, note that GO-TO, Kreia and Disciple are all just speculating. Whether Revan originally sacrificed himself/herself to the dark side or not in the first place is not definitive. We don't know. That remains to be seen.

 

Yes, but at least all of them speculate towards the same direction. And they speculate based on facts (leaving some core systems intact, etc) that are unreasonable, unresolved. If things go differently, there must be a reason. Unless one could explain them otherwise, the speculation that Revan planned them would be the most plausible explanation.

 

As for Kreia, one could argue that she knows Revan well as she's Revan's most important teacher, and thus she was bold enough to arrive at such groundbreaking conclusion that Revan did not "fall". From the story perspective back to the reality, do you think the writers created these lines of Kreia, and those of Canderous, Go-to, etc, just to confuse us? I don't think so. There must be a reason they're doing this- these lines should definitely add value and shed light on what's happening in KotOR. They're highly likely to be what the writers intended to be the truth.

[Inyri]

There are other ways. Vaelastraz had an interesting point when he/she mentioned those Ysalamir things. If neither one of them could manipulate the force, that might give Revan all the edge he needs. Have they ever been mentioned before in the Old Republic era?

The second lightsaber form was named after the ysalimiri, so one could only assume the Jedi Order at least was aware of them. Ysalimiri are frail creatures, though. All you'd have to do in a duel is find the ysalimiri and kill it -- it would take far more preparation than simply having an ysalimiri on your shoulder to make it an effective tool of battle. Of course then again Wookieepedia claims that Myrkr wasn't settled until 300 BBY, so who really knows.

 

The point I felt like I should bring up is that we've not seen Nihilus's power in action. It may be incredibly draining, or take incredible concentration (like Bastila's battle meditation). In fact Nihilus did devour worlds, but he did it safely from a distance onboard his ship. I somehow get the impression it wouldn't be an effective tool in close combat. Unless he can instantly drain all the Force out of Revan (which I doubt) Revan would have him cut down before he ever finished. As a result, I would assume Nihilus would resort to more conventional dueling techniques, where I'm sure Revan would be the superior.

[The Sith'ari]

The point I felt like I should bring up is that we've not seen Nihilus's power in action. It may be incredibly draining, or take incredible concentration (like Bastila's battle meditation). In fact Nihilus did devour worlds, but he did it safely from a distance onboard his ship. I somehow get the impression it wouldn't be an effective tool in close combat. Unless he can instantly drain all the Force out of Revan (which I doubt) Revan would have him cut down before he ever finished. As a result, I would assume Nihilus would resort to more conventional dueling techniques, where I'm sure Revan would be the superior.

 

Plausible indeed.

[Jediphile]

The second lightsaber form was named after the ysalimiri, so one could only assume the Jedi Order at least was aware of them. Ysalimiri are frail creatures, though. All you'd have to do in a duel is find the ysalimiri and kill it -- it would take far more preparation than simply having an ysalimiri on your shoulder to make it an effective tool of battle. Of course then again Wookieepedia claims that Myrkr wasn't settled until 300 BBY, so who really knows.

 

Though Myrkr may not have been "settled" in that sense at the time, we do know that it had connections to the Republic in the KotOR era, since Master Ood Bnar was one of the Neti native to Myrkr, who "sacrificed" himself to protect jedi secrets from falling into the hands of Exar Kun when Ossus was devastated during the Sith War 40-50 years before the KotOR games. Since there was a jedi master native to Myrkr at the time, it stands to reason that the order would have at least known of the Ysalamiri.

 

The point I felt like I should bring up is that we've not seen Nihilus's power in action. It may be incredibly draining, or take incredible concentration (like Bastila's battle meditation). In fact Nihilus did devour worlds, but he did it safely from a distance onboard his ship. I somehow get the impression it wouldn't be an effective tool in close combat. Unless he can instantly drain all the Force out of Revan (which I doubt) Revan would have him cut down before he ever finished. As a result, I would assume Nihilus would resort to more conventional dueling techniques, where I'm sure Revan would be the superior.

 

But we have seen him use it in combat. He did use it against the Exile. Or at least tried to. And it would have been devastating, had it not been for the fact that the Exile is a wound in the force and so cannot be drained. That's even if we ignore the cut content scene, where Sion turns on Nihilus only to be sucked dry. Basically Nihilus kills Sion by draining all force out of him, only to have Sion reincarnate, since his special ability is that he cannot die. Or at least that he always resurrects. Nihilus could have drained Sion again and again, but there would be no point, and even Sion realised this.

[Vaelastraz]

So the the ability to resurrect every time he dies is an ability unrelated to the force? Because if it is related to the Dark side, it would not work, once all force is drained from Sion.

[Shem]

The point I felt like I should bring up is that we've not seen Nihilus's power in action. It may be incredibly draining, or take incredible concentration (like Bastila's battle meditation). In fact Nihilus did devour worlds, but he did it safely from a distance onboard his ship. I somehow get the impression it wouldn't be an effective tool in close combat. Unless he can instantly drain all the Force out of Revan (which I doubt) Revan would have him cut down before he ever finished. As a result, I would assume Nihilus would resort to more conventional dueling techniques, where I'm sure Revan would be the superior.

Kreia used the Nihilus type Force Power on the Jedi Council if you choose the light side. Nihilus did it, but realized it didn't have an affect on the Exile. Plus the Exile had help against Nihilus is part of the reason why he/she won so easily.

[Jediphile]

So the the ability to resurrect every time he dies is an ability unrelated to the force? Because if it is related to the Dark side, it would not work, once all force is drained from Sion.

 

Nihilus could probably have done that by leaving Sion dead to the force. But it seems he chose not to, and so Sion could resurrect. Don't forget that the medical crews of the Harbinger were certain that he was quite dead until he decided to resurrect.

[Emperor Devon]

There are other ways. Vaelastraz had an interesting point when he/she mentioned those Ysalamir things. If neither one of them could manipulate the force, that might give Revan all the edge he needs. Have they ever been mentioned before in the Old Republic era?

 

As Inyri said, one hack of a lightsaber and it's dead.

 

Even so, I'm doubtful one could even work on Nihilus. He seems to be dead to the Force in the way that the Exile is.

 

And droids are dead to the force, but that doesn't mean that Nihilus couldn't use conventional force powers to wipe them out. I don't think any kind of assassination would work with Nihilus.

 

He could use convential Force powers on them, but that still makes him far from invincible. I don't think Nihilus could hold his own against 500 droids firing simultaneously.

 

Maybe distract him with something else and then attack him out of nowhere?

 

Wouldn't work. Force-sensitives, when in combat, can sense their opponent's intentions.

[SilentScope001]

He could use convential Force powers on them, but that still makes him far from invincible. I don't think Nihilus could hold his own against 500 droids firing simultaneously.

 

This reminds me of the quote from HK-47...that the only way to kill a Jedi is to be a Human Being. Just replace Human Being with a Droid...and that would be all.

 

This must be why there is a huge army of Sith troopers was on the Raveger, to defend Nihlius from these droids who will march to Nihlius. If these troopers can destroy or weaken the droids, then Nihlius can take them out. Now it makes sense why Nihlius has a huge army...when it is obivous that he can wipe out planets with his NihliusDrain ...because he's secretly afraid and paranoid of threats...including robots. Also makes sense why he was trying to do the Beast Mind Trick on Onderon, since beasts are more loyal and depedenable than humans or robots.

 

And, prehaps, Nihlius is not flesh and blood. Hence, the droids will just fire...and fly right through Nihlius' rope, and Nihlius wouldn't feel a thing. I doubt it, but...

 

But we're off topic. This is a battle between Revan and Nihlius. NOT CIS Droid Army and Nihlius.

[The Sith'ari]

Wouldn't work. Force-sensitives, when in combat, can sense their opponent's intentions.

 

While they can sense others' intentions, that still requires their focus on the Force. If they're distracted and the focus is lost, a jedi could be as vulnerable as a non-jedi. This is how the jedi Andur died.

 

Also, force-sensitives may fail to sense others' intentions if techniques like Atton's kill Jedi techniques are used- to crowd one's thoughts with violent emotions. All in all, force-users are not almighty. There're still things they can't accomplish with the Force.

[Rabish Bini]

Nihilus isn't Force sensitive though. He is dead to it, a wound, just like exile.

Now, Revan learned ancient Sith secrets from the Trayus academy. What if he learned how to "Force eat" (As I call it) And control it just like Kriea does. But that wouldn't work against Nihilus would it? He is a wound. So, Revan tries to do that but fails and ultimately dies.

Revan tries combat from afar. He tries to blow up Nihilus' ship. It would work. BUT, that isn't Revan VS. Nihilus, considerin VS. means one-on-one. So that fails.

Any other theories I can prove (probably) that Revan tried would not work. If this threa was Revan destroys Nihilus how, then he could destroy him from a ship. But it's not.

 

Simply put: Nihilus.

[jonathan7]

This discussion does need to be defined, as 1-1 Nihilus would win, it doesnt matter about ur arguments about Revan, he basically is a force user, and a very strong one... the kind Nihilus likes as he would feed Nihlus as Revan has so much force potential.

[Vaelastraz]

And what if Revan did learn the power of unresistable speeches? He would just talk Nihilus into suicide!

 

 

By the way, why does everybody mention that Nihilus attempted to use his drain on the Exile but failed? There is a scenario where he does just that, but if you as the PC choose other dialoge options, he won't even try it. It'S all lightsaber / common force powers then.

 

So you can't argue, that he did try to use the drain but failed. That's like saying Bastila Shan must be dead because I killed her in Kotor I.

[moneal2001]

So you can't argue, that he did try to use the drain but failed. That's like saying Bastila Shan must be dead because I killed her in Kotor I.

 

But in Kotor I you could save Bastila. In Kotor II there is no way to make the Exile be affected by the Leech ability of Nihilus.

[SilentScope001]

Vaelastraz makes a good point. You could cause Nihlius not to use his Force Drain...but you would have to do other tactics to make Nihlius weak: Lying to Nihlius that you want to be his apperciante and then suprising Nihlius by betraying him...or Killing Visas, which would weaken Nihlius due to him having a Force Bond with her. Both ways weaken Nihlius...and you have to weaken Nihlius to use it.

 

But there is no way to make the Exile suffer from Nihlius' Force Drain if Nihlius actually does use it. And, for the most part, Nihlius does use the Force Drain, since the other methods are rarely triggered. The fact is: All Nihlius had to do is use the Force Drain on Revan, and Revan dies.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

I'm not sure what I was thinking when I voted. I voted for Revan, but when you think about it, in a 1 vs. 1 fight, there's no way Revan could win. Nihilus could just eat up all the Force out of Revan and he'd be dead in seconds.

[Emperor Devon]

While they can sense others' intentions, that still requires their focus on the Force.

 

From what I've read in various EU books, it actually doesn't require great effort. The Force isn't something that gets turned on and off like a light - it's always there.

 

This is how the jedi Andur died.

 

...and who was a lot weaker than Nihilus.

 

Also, force-sensitives may fail to sense others' intentions if techniques like Atton's kill Jedi techniques are used- to crowd one's thoughts with violent emotions.

 

Nihilus does not see the universe in the same manner other Sith do. I'm inclined to think that due to his hunger, he has a more primal (and effective) way of sensing emotions and intentions. Some animals, for instance, can sense fear.

 

All in all, force-users are not almighty. There're still things they can't accomplish with the Force.

 

That applies to Revan as well.

 

But in any case, it's all moot. If Nihilus could kill an entire conclave of the Order's best Jedi and several thousand Miralukas, I don't think one Sith Lord would be a tall order. Revan, powerful as he is, can't compare to that many Force-sensitive people. Since you also seem to think a distraction would work on Nihilus, thousands of people (or at the dozen or so Jedi together) had a far greater capacity for that than one person would. They still wound up dead.

[The Sith'ari]

The distraction I'm talking about is actually like Nihilus being attacked while exerting his force-sucking ability. I reckon when he sucked the life out of the entire Katar he was standing afar at the bridge of his collossal dead ship, with nothing else to divert his attention. I'm just not sure if he could have accomplished the same if he was suddenly ambushed by a major threat.