TSL Vs. KOTOR

[Emperor Devon]

An echo that could very well consume all life in the galaxy if the Exile wanted to. And that's not even getting into her more "earthly" traits. She's quite strong in the Force and a match for some of the strongest Sith Lords in the galaxy. Far from nothing.

 

Even then there's the matter of what. The Exile contains an echo of no small event.

[The Source]

An echo that could very well consume all life in the galaxy if the Exile wanted to. And that's not even getting into her more "earthly" traits. She's quite strong in the Force and a match for some of the strongest Sith Lords in the galaxy. Far from nothing.

 

Even then there's the matter of what. The Exile contains an echo of no small event.

I have to agree to dissagree.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

I disagree. It seemed quite sensible IMO - how else could it really have ended?

Maybe an "awful" ending was called for. My point was that if they inteded TSL to be the last game of the series, then the ending absolutely did not fit at all. There's absolutely no closure, except for the big 3 Sith Lords dying. The Exile leaves known space to search for Revan, and that's it. That would be like ending the "Pirates" series at DMC. The crew leaves for World's End to search for Jack, but they never actually make the third movie.

 

Now if they already have plans for KotOR III, then it probably is the perfect ending. At least it leads into a possible plot for another game. In that sense, it's not awful, so it's really based on whether or not KotOR III will ever exist, in my opinion.

[Denny33142]

kotor 1 was far more polished it doesnt really matter what any of you say It may not matter to _you_ what others say about it, but that doesn't mean 'it doesn't really matter'. --Jae

 

which game won more then 50 awards? was it kotor 2? nope

[Titanius Anglesmith]

kotor 1 was far more polished it doesnt really matter what any of you say

Then what's the point of any of us being here? If nothing any of us says matters, then there's no pointto a discussion. Everyone's opinions are just as relevant as yours, and I don't care what critics say. They can have their opinions, and I have mine. I like TSL better, and it ends at that.

[TKA-001]

Architect, while I agree with you that K2 had a much more interesting and realistic story and set of characters than K1, I must say that the reasons for your opinion make little or no sense to me.

 

(Caution, spoilers below)

 

Instead of creating an evolving story, BioWare just wrote the story around an in my opinion two feeble and predictable plot twists, thanks to the countless clues given in the game.

 

While I’m not accusing those who didn’t figure out the twists idiots, since I’d be a condescending jerk to do that, I can understand why those including myself believe that the plot twists were easy to figure out in KotOR.

Dude, I don't care who says the K1 plot twist was feeble or predictable, ~snipped~ because NOBODY expected

their Player character to turn out to be Revan.

Not you, not me, not ANYone.

 

What many people overlook is that BioWare has a lot to thank for the OT. Call these examples clichés, tributes or similarities if you want but you can see the connections between:

 

Ebon Hawk/Millennium Falcon

Ok, I suppose there's nothing I can argue against there. But what form of transport should they have had instead?

 

Vandar/Yoda

They both are the same species, and are Jedi Masters. So what?

 

Malak/Vader

Let's see...

 

They were both once Jedi, and fell the the dark side, and at some point in their lives sustained [an] injury/injuries that required cybernetic replacements.

 

Revan/Luke

Both are Jedi who fight the Sith.

 

Zaalbar/Chewbacca

I can't really argue against this since I'm not familiar with Chewie's backstory.

 

Star Forge/Death Star

Again, you are taking the most obvious things about them and saying that one is a rip-off... The Star Forge is not a rip-off of the Death Star just because it's also a space station that gets blown up.

 

KotOR plot twist/ESB plot twist

Now you're just calling it a rip-off because it's also a plot twist.

 

T3-M4/R2-D2

Ok, even I have to admit no argument here.

 

Bastila/Leia

Huh?? Now Bastila is a rip-off of Leia because they are both human female main characters?? Bastila has not only a completely different backstory and occupation, but also a totally different personality. Here you're just making stuff up. Do you know him well enough to be able to ascribe that kind of motive to him? Avoid personal attacks or comments--stick to the ideas. --Jae

 

 

The list goes on. What would KotOR be without these things in the OT to draw inspiration and ideas from? What gave it that ‘Star Wars’ feel was these kind of rip off similarities, plus the ‘hero goes on an adventure with a group of companions to stop the bad guy with the super weapon’.

I really don't see how a gigantic, highly effective factory makes the Star Forge a superweapon.

 

Now, moving on to TSL. Well, first off I can tell you that TSL isn’t as popular as KotOR, because of the cut content and the apparent ‘non Star Wars’ feel it has. Now why isn’t TSL very Star Warsy like KotOR was?

 

It is because Star Wars stories are aimed at all audiences, and this includes kids. So Star Wars stories are usually simplistic so the younglings can follow it. Same goes with the characters. TSL however, was not like this.

Wrong, K1 didn't have a very Star-Warsy feel, and neither did K2, for the same reasons.

 

1. They had absoloutely no Star Wars music anywhere.

 

2. They had sounds that sounded like the movie's sounds, not sounds that were from them.

 

I know that's only two reasons, but they really are important. That's a problem with Star Was games nowadays, Lucasarts doesn't really care if each game has its own seperate, generic Star Wars feel which isn't as good as it otherwise might be if they paid more attention to that sort of thing.

 

People claim that Darth Nihilus was an under developed character and while that may be true, I don’t agree. Firstly, if you believe in one theory about Nihilus’ like I do, you’d know he has a massive background.

No, you mean he has a massive background according to your theory, which is fanon and in no way an official part of Star Wars continuity. (regardless, I would like to see this theory that you speak of. Link?)

 

Secondly, I don’t think we’re supposed to learn much about him.

 

As Jediphile has said, I think Nihilus is supposed to be like Dracula in Stoker’s original novel. You never find out who Dracula really is. You learn his name and where he's from, but that's it.

 

His motives or how he became what he became is never revealed. And personally I think he works better that way, because the evil that is unknown is more threatening than the evil you understand. Nihilus is just the same. There are some secrets that should not be unveiled, because they work better if left unmasked.

I'm sorry, but if there is never a novel or comic or something about Darth Nihilus' orgin, then I think that will be a huge missed oppertunity. Darth Nihilus is really cool IMO, despite how little is revealed about him in TSL. If he is never expanded on in another EU source, then I think that would be a huge mistake.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree that TSL is better, but I would best describe your argument as "right opinion, wrong reason".

[T-bolt]

TSL didn't add anything new to the Star Wars universe, other than a bit more detail to the EU. Kreia's motivation and GO-TO's were perhaps the only interesting new things, otherwise it borrowed as heavily from the movies as did KotOR. I'd disagree with Allronix The Sith Lords was the Empire Strikes Back to KotOR's Star Wars, not the prequels to the OT.

 

Spoilers.

 

Star Wars ended with the destruction of the super space station and a ceremony celebrating the defeat of the Empire but the ESB starts with the Empire back stronger than ever. KotOR ended with the destruction of the super space station and a ceremony celebrating the defeat of the Sith but then TSL starts with the Sith back stronger than ever.

 

ESB has the heroes on the run from the Empire. TSL has it's heroes on the run from the Sith.

 

ESB has a motley crew of bounty hunters looking for our heroes. TSL has a motley crew of bounty hunters looking for the Exile.

 

The Millenium Falcon malfunctions and they take refuge in an asteroid field to make repairs. The Ebon Hawk is damaged and takes refuge in an asteroid field to make repairs.

 

In ESB Luke has to find a Jedi Master (in hiding) and learn the ways of the force. In TSL the Exile has to relearn the force and find several Jedi Masters who are in hiding.

 

In ESB the only place they can go on leaving the asteroid field is a floating city, in TSL you have to go to a orbital city.

 

Luke has to face the dark side in the form of a vision of a sith lord. The exile also has to face visions of Sith Lords.

 

In ESB there's no real threat beyond facing Vader, who turn's out to be not who you think. In TSL there's no real threat other than defeating a Sith Lord, who turns out not to be who you think.

 

At the end of ESB the heroes take off in the MF minus one of their companions, in the light side ending they head off in the EH minus at least one of their companions.

 

And Nihilus' ship was far more a copy of a star destroyer than KotOR's sith capital ships and just as much a ripoff as the Ebon Hawk was. And don't forget the shuttle.

 

Then there's the characters, Atton is a pale copy of Solo, not just in looks but in background. Visas' background is similar to Leia's. TSL still has the same set of character types to recruit. Other than the two droids and Canderous returning there's

 

Carth = Atton/Disciple - Male beefcake

Bastila = Visas - Female Jedi Love interest

Juhani = Handmaiden - Female Warrior

Mission = Mira - Female Rogue

Zaalbar = Hanharr - Token Wookie

Jolee = Kreia - Gnarled Old Jedi Advisor

 

Bao-Dur and GO-TO are the only original additions.

 

TSL added influence and attempted to have the player's actions affect the endgame which is laudable but for all the technical advances what did they do to Dantooine?

 

To sum it up Star Wars and KotOR were rip-roaring adventures, while the Empire Strikes Back and TSL were more character studies. Both valid but different, each with it's own pluses and minuses. I wish though that when they released the best of pc version they had converted KotOR to include many of the new features of TSL.

 

Not that I dislike TSL but to claim that it's innovative and KotOR was just a ripoff is so wrong. Even the general dislike of the Jedi has been covered in the EU and the destruction of worlds and rebuilding, is I believe a part of the post NJO novels.

 

And I'd disagree about the lack of Star Wars feeling, both games have got loads otherwise I wouldn't play them, as cRPGs I found both rather lacking. My biggest problem with the Star Wars feeling was graphically they were too similar to the movies considering the time frame, same goes for the technology. KotOR set up the continued use of swords because of the energy shields, which TSL kind of ignored, but other than the lower damage and abundance of armour most of the technology shown is indistinguishable from the films.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Dude, I don't care who says the K1 plot twist was feeble or predictable, ~snipped~, because NOBODY expected

 

 

 

their Player character to turn out to be Revan.

 

 

Not you, not me, not ANYone.

I would beg to differ. While I myself didn't see it coming (it could have had to do with the fact that I was 12 at the time and didn't really care about the story), I know for a fact others did. However, I did know that Revan was involved in the plot somehow. There were just too many lame hints at it.

 

You simply can't declare that no one saw it coming. I half saw it coming, and I'm sure The Architect, along with many others, saw it coming.

[Emperor Devon]

There's absolutely no closure, except for the big 3 Sith Lords dying. The Exile leaves known space to search for Revan, and that's it.

 

What else was there to do? Other than showing a crowd of people clapping at the PC for killing them, it ends in the same manner KotOR does: the bad guy(s) are dead and the galaxy is safe for a little. The only real difference is the lack of glamor and the promise of a sequel.

 

That would be like ending the "Pirates" series at DMC. The crew leaves for World's End to search for Jack, but they never actually make the third movie.

 

Would be awfully disappointing not have a sequel, but I'd consider having two good movies more than enough compensation. The ending is obvious enough, anyway - the good guys win. Or they all get killed off, which could butcher the whole series.

 

In that sense, it's not awful, so it's really based on whether or not KotOR III will ever exist, in my opinion.

 

I can agree with that somewhat. But it's a more sensible idea than TSL being "incomplete" because a couple things that hardly affected the plot were cut, IMO.

 

kotor 1 was far more polished it doesnt really matter what any of you say

 

I disagree... I would infinitely prefer a slightly dirty 1st place trophy cup over a polished plaque for 6th place.

 

Of course, that metaphor's all moot if TSL is just as polished as KotOR is. Since you've not provided any reasons why, that's awfully hard to claim.

 

which game won more then 50 awards? was it kotor 2? nope

 

Those sites rank games that are absolute garbage (such as Halo) as the best ones of all time. I give their awards less thought than the pages they're displayed on.

 

Not that I dislike TSL but to claim that it's innovative and KotOR was just a ripoff is so wrong.

 

TSL obviously had some things taken from ESB, but some of the major aspects of the plot are quite different. The whole "echoes in the Force" thing and Nihilus-like Sith were quite original.

 

Jolee = Kreia - Gnarled Old Jedi Advisor

 

I found Kreia's role as a Sith Lord, lengthy schemes and hatred of the Force to be quite different from Jolee. She's more like Sidious than him, and even then had very different goals and motivations.

 

The Star Forge is not a rip-off of the Death Star just because it's also a space station that gets blown up.

 

Indirectly they're quite similar. Both are giant space stations that guarantee ultimate victory to whoever controls them. The only difference is that the Death Star blows up people directly whereas the Star Forge produces an infinite number of ships to do the blowing up.

 

And welcome to the forums, T-bolt! Nice to have you here.

[EnIgmA_XX]

Then there's the characters, Atton is a pale copy of Solo, not just in looks but in background. Visas' background is similar to Leia's. TSL still has the same set of character types to recruit. Other than the two droids and Canderous returning there's

 

Carth = Atton/Disciple - Male beefcake

Bastila = Visas - Female Jedi Love interest

Juhani = Handmaiden - Female Warrior

Mission = Mira - Female Rogue

Zaalbar = Hanharr - Token Wookie

Jolee = Kreia - Gnarled Old Jedi Advisor

 

Bao-Dur and GO-TO are the only original additions.

 

Wow, i didn't know that Han Solo was a sith that killed jedi for a living. And how in worlds is Visas like Leia?

 

Leia:

princess

rebellion leader

charismatic

 

Visas:

Blind sith that sees through the force

somewhat timid in my opinion

had her homeworld destroyed

 

okay, so they're both women. does that mean they're the same? uh...maybe not.

 

Carth is not, not, not the same as Atton. I don't mean to take this out on you, but i get severely annoyed whenever i see this comparison.

 

Carth:

soldier class

veteran rebublic soldier that has always been loyal to the republic

been betrayed his share of times and isn't trusting of others

 

Atton:

scoundrel class

republic soldier that deserted to the sith

became a sith special ops trooper that captures and tortures jedi

deserted again and is on his own

on the outside is rather cynical and self caring

 

okay, so they're men with pistols. does that make them the same? no, it doesn't. about a third of armed people in the KOTOR era uses pistols. the others use rifles/lightsabers. they might both pilot the Ebon hawk and maybe i'll give a little bit of an okay about the similarity there, but other than that, no. As for Mical, same thing. i won't bother to describe him, but just because they're men doesn't mean they're the same.

 

Bastila is not Visas.

 

Visas:

see above

 

Bastila:

Jedi

uses battle meditation

impulsive, strict, and a bit arrogant

 

same? no.

 

Juhani:

fallen jedi

Cathar

i think was a slave from taris, and i don't really know anything else because i never bothered to talk to her.

 

Handmaiden:

Echani

unarmed combat specialist

mind trained to block out the force

 

not same.

 

Mission:

14 years old

twilek

scoundrel class

talkative and a bit whiney

definitely sensitive about her age. i can't tell you how many times she got angry at me and Carth for calling her a kid

 

Mira:

scout class

human

definitely much older than Mission

bounty hunter

 

both girls. still not same.

 

i can't really compare Zaalbar and Hanharr because i never talked to Zaalbar and never went ds in tsl. I agree with the whole wookie thing, but from talks in the forums, i know that Hanharr is quite ds while Zaalbar isn't, and Hanharr hates humans a lot, so in personality they probably are quite different.

 

Jolee:

self exiled

cynical, i think

has lots of stories and mentions his age a lot.

 

Kreia:

very serious char

former sith lord

hates the force

 

i suppose they're old jedi, but there a lots of old jedi all over Star Wars. think Yoda.

 

In the end, from my time in the forums i can say that just about all tsl chars are very, amazingly underrated. people claim them to be rip offs, when they obviously aren't. i myself like tsl and kotor equally, but i just wanted to get this out there.

[T-bolt]

TSL obviously had some things taken from ESB, but some of the major aspects of the plot are quite different. The whole "echoes in the Force" thing and Nihilus-like Sith were quite original.

I found the whole echoes in the force thing was a bit too convoluted and was much the ramblings of a mad woman (maybe that was intended?) At the heart of it TSL's plot is as simplistic as KotOR's, Nihilus is pretty much just a substitution of Malak destroying Taris except through the force and not via a battlefleet. Likewise his hunger mirrors Malak's ambition, really it's the motivation of Kreia that's different.

 

I found Kreia's role as a Sith Lord, lengthy schemes and hatred of the Force to be quite different from Jolee. She's more like Sidious than him, and even then had very different goals and motivations.

I was refering to the role as companion, a grey Jedi who can advise the player but knows more than they initally let on.

 

Indirectly they're quite similar. Both are giant space stations that guarantee ultimate victory to whoever controls them. The only difference is that the Death Star blows up people directly whereas the Star Forge produces an infinite number of ships to do the blowing up.

You've attributed the quote to the wrong person. But Hi.

 

 

Wow, i didn't know that Han Solo was a sith that killed jedi for a living. And how in worlds is Visas like Leia?

Wasn't Solo an imperial who became a smuggler and then got caught up in the fight against the empire, while Atton was a sith who became a scoundrel and gets caught up in the fight against the sith. Leia and Visas both had their homeworlds destroyed and both were connected to a Sith Lord. But I was really responding to a comparison of Bastila/Leia. Visas is much closer to Leia than Bastila was.

 

Carth is not, not, not the same as Atton. I don't mean to take this out on you, but i get severely annoyed whenever i see this comparison.

They are different characters and different classes but still they fill the same generic role in the games, sidekick, guide, love interest. Likewise with the other characters different classes and skills but fill similar roles in the party or have similar backgrounds or relationships and in most cases tend to match gender for gender. A female force user for a female force user, a female melee fighter for a female melee fighter, a male pilot for a male pilot, a ls wookie for a ds wookie.

 

Mission and Mira's general background stories are similar enough, abandoned non jedi, street smart, and both have a relationship with a Wookie.

 

Basically my point is for all the comparisons done for KotOR to the OT the same can be done for TSL. And while you can interact more with the characters to some extent they make up a similar party to those of KotOR.

[The Architect]

Architect, while I agree with you that K2 had a much more interesting and realistic story and set of characters than K1, I must say that the reasons for your opinion make little or no sense to me.

 

(Caution, spoilers below)

 

Really? It’ll be interesting to see why that is so.

 

 

Dude, I don't care who says the K1 plot twist was feeble or predictable, ~snipped~because NOBODY expected

their Player character to turn out to be Revan.

Not you, not me, not ANYone.

 

~snipped~ That's unnecessary. --Jae

 

How do you know? Have you spoken (whether it be on the internet or not) to EVERY single person whose played KotOR? I don’t think so. I don’t like being accused of lying either.

 

Sure, you’re entitled to believe that I didn’t figure out the plot twist before the revelation if you want, because I can’t prove that I did, but I know that I did, so what you think won’t change the truth in this case.

 

Do you want to know how I figured out that extremely overrated and obvious plot twist? Well, where do I start?

 

 

First off, most people, including myself, knew that your character was going to play as someone who would either start off as a Jedi, or become one before the game began (the back of the game box will show you that). Okay, so it turns out we start off as someone who isn’t a Jedi, but will become one.

 

Okay hmm, we know that the Jedi Council in the OT were reluctant to train Anakin Skywalker because apparently he was too old, so this guy/woman as an adult is going to become a Jedi?

 

Why? Also, we start off on a Republic ship, so if this guy/woman is force sensitive, then why hasn’t the Jedi Order detected him/her and taken him/her in for training? Already I’m suspicious.

 

The first dialogue option in the game is suspicious too. You get the option of “Who are you?” or “The Endar Spire?” Okay, how could you not know the name of the ship you’ve been stationed on? Is my character amnesic or something?

 

When you crash land on Taris, you have this vision showing some woman with a yellow lightsaber fighting a Dark Jedi. Okay, why did you just have that vision? Why don’t you know what that vision is about?

 

Carth tells you that the Jedi strike team killed this Sith Lord named Darth Revan. He also says that the force can do terrible things to a mind; it can wipe away your memories and destroy your very identity.

 

While at the time I didn’t pick up on the significance of that statement, I did wonder if my character was amnesic or something along those lines, because for some reason I forgot the name of the ship I was stationed on, and I had this vision that I have no clue about.

 

When you first meet Bastila, she stutters when she first speaks to you. What is that all about? It was like she saw a ghost. She says “You’re…you’re one of the soldiers in the Republic fleet aren’t you? Yes I’m sure of it.”

 

It was almost as if she was going to call me something other than a soldier in the Republic fleet. And what about the “yes I’m sure of it.”? Didn’t Carth say that Bastila was the captain of the Endar Spire?

 

If so, shouldn’t she recognise her own crew and not be unsure at all who her people are? Also, this woman was the person I saw in that vision, and Carth also says “considering your connection to Bastila and the Jedi”, so I began to wonder because of if there was something important I’m being kept in the dark about. There’s got to be more to the story.

 

Then the second vision happens; the giveaway. We see the Jedi strike team moving in to attack Revan, and then bang, some ship from the background attacks Revan’s flagship and knocks him/her unconscious. And this is where I figured out that I was Revan.

 

Why? Because I was told that the Jedi strike team killed Revan. Umm…I just saw that this was not the case! Why have the Jedi lied about this? It makes sense that I’m Revan, because it explains why I become a Jedi (because I’ve used the force before and I’m no weakling), it explains why my character doesn’t know/remember the visions and Bastila (because obviously that attack damaged my head or something) and Revan is wearing a mask in that vision (note how you could choose the character’s face)?

 

It all made sense. Still, I wondered what the heck Jedi did to me. I’m the ex-Dark Lord of the Sith, and I’m helping the Republic and the Jedi defeat my own people? What the hell?

 

So I go to Dantooine, and this is where it gets really obvious. Vrook says “Are you certain Revan is truly dead? What if we undertake to train this one and the Dark Lord should return?” Umm…I thought you Jedi folk killed Revan, and ah, what the hell has that got to do with my training? That was a bit random don’t you think?

 

What about Nemo? “I think you place too much significance in rank young padawan. YOU OF ALL PEOPLE should know that.” What? You of all people should know that? Good God, why not just come out and say that I’m Revan?

 

And what’s this special case nonsense? Why am I a special case? How come I can do in weeks what most Jedi can’t do in years? Also, Vrook says that he wasn’t certain if Revan was dead or not, yet him, Vandar and the rest of the Council say that Bastila and the Jedi strike team killed Revan.

 

Bulldust! It was a lie! I saw the vision, and it was someone else that killed Revan! Why are the Council lying about this? They would know what happened, because Bastila would’ve told them.

 

And what the hell is Vrook’s problem? What have I done to him? All of these questions can be answered by one fact: because you are Revan. Why is a neophyte padawan like myself with only a few weeks of training being given the responsibility of tracking down the Star Maps?

 

How come someone like me with only a few weeks of training can defeat full fledged Dark Jedi, Sith acolytes and Sith Masters? It took Anakin, Yoda, Palpatine and Obi-Wan years to become powerful, and it only takes me a few months or so? I can’t be that powerful! There has to be more to it!

 

The computer on Kashyyyk says “match found”. The only way for that to happen is if I visited the computer before. You learn that only Jolee, Freyyr, Revan and Malak have tried to access the Star Map, so how come the computer says “match found” to you, and not the others?

 

Why does that Sith Master say “Lord Malak is most displeased to hear you had escaped Taris alive. He has promised a great reward to whoever destroys you.” Okay, umm…why is he most displeased to hear a mere padawan such as myself escaped Taris alive? Why will he give a great reward to whoever destroys me? What’s so special about me?

 

There are many other clues too; including the visions, things that Bastila and the Council say that I haven’t mentioned (because I’ve forgotten). I’ll get to the Leviathan part. Why is Saul and Malak so interested in me? Carth and Bastila I can understand but why me? He says that I have been a thorn in Malak’s side from day one; he says that there’s history between us.

 

He even says that he won’t deprive the pleasure of Malak telling me himself about the history between us. He says that my loyalties have been flexible in the past. I mean, come on! Considering everything I’ve mentioned it’s obvious that you were Revan!

 

Then Malak says “Even now I can hardly believe me eyes. Tell me, why did the Jedi spare you? Is it vengeance you seek at this reunion?” That, plus everything I’ve mentioned, plus the fact that Bastila says it was Malak that “killed” Revan, plus the clues that come up before the so-called jaw dropping revelation meant that YOU SHOULDN’T have been surprised when Malak called you Revan.

 

You DO NOT equate to everyone who has played KotOR TKA-001.

 

Let's see...

 

They were both once Jedi, and fell the the dark side, and at some point in their lives sustained [an] injury/injuries that required cybernetic replacements.

 

Let’s see, they are both tall Sith Lord’s with metallic sounding voices in possession of a super weapon who are linked to the hero/the main protagonist of the series.

 

Both are Jedi who fight the Sith.

 

Both are powerful force users who are linked to the bad guy and lead the group of companions going on an adventure to stop the villain with the super weapon. And:

 

KotOR and TSL or totally different, IMO, at least concerning the plot.

 

K1 is a blink to the Trilogy. Same plot, same characters... The ability to visit Tatooine and Kashyyyk (in Rwookrrorro, of course... 'cause it's Chewbacca's home), but the most important blink for me is the character of Revan, completly filled with the Skywalker's story :

- skilled in repairing/making droids

- skilled in swoop race/pod race

- secret identity

- confrontation against a tall Sith speaking with a robotical voice...

- ... on a frightening war space station...

- ... which is destroyed in the end

Not to mention the other characters' resemblances mentionned by Architect (though you forgot Mission, and the duo "scroundel/wookie")...

 

Again, you are taking the most obvious things about them and saying that one is a rip-off... The Star Forge is not a rip-off of the Death Star just because it's also a space station that gets blown up.

 

What Emperor Devon said.

 

Now you're just calling it a rip-off because it's also a plot twist.

 

No, it’s the concept of the plot-twist that’s similar. Like Luke, Revan also has a dark secret about his/her past and is linked to the bad guy. They both also have Masters who “know the truth”.

 

Huh?? Now Bastila is a rip-off of Leia because they are both human female main characters?? Bastila has not only a completely different backstory and occupation, but also a totally different personality. Here you're just making stuff up.

 

No, they are both just as important as the main character, they are both captured and get rescued, they are both attractive; heck Bastila is even called a “Jedi princess”, and Leia is just like Bastila in how at first she denies her love for male Revan and exchanges smart ass remarks with him.

 

I really don't see how a gigantic, highly effective factory makes the Star Forge a superweapon.

 

YOU DON’T? Are you serious?

 

Wrong, K1 didn't have a very Star-Warsy feel, and neither did K2, for the same reasons.

 

1. They had absoloutely no Star Wars music anywhere.

 

2. They had sounds that sounded like the movie's sounds, not sounds that were from them.

 

I know that's only two reasons, but they really are important. That's a problem with Star Was games nowadays, Lucasarts doesn't really care if each game has its own seperate, generic Star Wars feel which isn't as good as it otherwise might be if they paid more attention to that sort of thing.

 

Yes it did. While you make two good points there, because of the things I, and others have mentioned, it was very Star Warsy. That’s why many people love KotOR. Because it reminded them of the OT. And in some ways, also the PT. For example, Revan “wins Bastila’s freedom” in a swoop race, just like how Anakin won his freedom in a swoop race. Darth Maul is like Darth Bandon. Both are blood thirsty jerks who have cold, quiet voices, and both are apprentices of the main Dark Lord.

 

No, you mean he has a massive background according to your theory, which is fanon and in no way an official part of Star Wars continuity. (regardless, I would like to see this theory that you speak of. Link?)

 

Ah, I’ll get around to that. Not now though. I’m busy typing this mammoth post.

 

@T-bolt, umm…so a planet eating Sith Lord, a wound in the force, a blind Miraluka force-user, a Sith Lord who can regenerate, Sith who you can sympathize with, Jedi who aren’t as LS as what they seem, a plot written in the viewpoint of an ethical relativist, not the same old cartoony, childish black and white crap, shades of grey, and basically what Emperor Devon said in post 49 wasn’t new and interesting?

 

Give me a break. There’s NO WAY IN HELL that TSL was just as much of a rip-off of the OT than what KotOR was. And in TSL there’s no real threat? So someone who would’ve consumed all life in the galaxy if the Exile didn’t stop him wasn’t much of a threat? WHAT?

 

And about your character similarities? UMM….NO, NO, NO and NO. I've already typed a mammoth post, so I'll get back to you and explain why some other time.

[T-bolt]

@T-bolt, umm…so a planet eating Sith Lord, a wound in the force, a blind Miraluka force-user, a Sith Lord who can regenerate, Sith who you can sympathize with, Jedi who aren’t as LS as what they seem, a plot written in the viewpoint of an ethical relativist, not the same old cartoony, childish black and white crap, shades of grey, and basically what Emperor Devon said in post 49 wasn’t new and interesting?

Nope I didn't find it so, what might work for a book or film doesn't always make for an interesting single player game. I said Kriea's motivation was the only thing I found interesting. There have been several books in the EU that have questioned the Jedi viewpoint and cast a new light on the Star Wars universe, so refering back to your original post TSL didn't bring anything new to Star Wars other than background details.

 

Give me a break. There’s NO WAY IN HELL that TSL was just as much of a rip-off of the OT than what KotOR was.

Not only was TSL just as much a rip off of the OT it was just a rehash of KotOR. Write a synopsis of TSL under 400 words and you've pretty much got a synopsis that would work for KotOR.

 

 

The Hero either male or female must stop a sith lord, a former companion, the sith lord wishes to change the galaxy to match their desires. To this end the Hero can learn to use the force, and earns the right to confront the villain by visiting several planets looking for quest items or major characters, as well as fight their way to the bridge of an imperial star destroyer analogue and fight their way through a temple in use by the sith.

 

One of the planets visited housed a Jedi enclave and another a sith academy. To locate the items the Hero will often have to complete quests for minor characters. These quests often involve two parties and require the Hero to choose whom to help. Depending on whom the Hero aids they can earn lightside or darkside points for completing the quest as well as experience points and gain clues or access to the location of the main quest related item/character. The Hero will also have to fight hordes of sith soldiers and force users as well as gangsters, mercenaries, local fauna and military/law enforcement from each world.

 

Before the Hero can finally reach the sith lord, they will have to fight two lesser sith. Along the way the Hero will meet a diverse group of characters who will join with the quest, whether their company is wanted or not. They include an elderly Force User who is neither lightside or darkside and who will offer wisdom and guidance to the Hero. A male pilot who will be the Hero's first companion and possible romantic interest if the Hero is female, a female force user who will change alliegance between the lightside and darkside and will be a possible romantic interest if the Hero is male. An utility droid, a Protocol droid which is more than it seems, a female melee fighter who can be trained in use of the force, a wookie, a female rogue who has had a troubled youth.

 

 

And in TSL there’s no real threat? So someone who would’ve consumed all life in the galaxy if the Exile didn’t stop him wasn’t much of a threat? WHAT?

Nihilus wasn't really a character just the deathstar in humanoid form. Or a metaphor for Sith greed and ambition, but you don't get the same sense of threat from him. There's no tension, no sense of urgency like with the death star closing on Yavin 4. He doesn't even come across with the same sense of mystery as Darth Maul. He's just this plot point to get past on to the real sith lord. Going back to the ESB comparision he's not even Boba Fett just the wampa or even one of the imperial walkers.

[Jae Onasi]

All right, folks, I'll be looking over this thread and see where all the unpleasantness arose, but everyone needs to keep it civil and avoid characterizing things as 'absurd and ridiculous'. If you want to disagree, that's fine, but be polite about it.

[The Architect]

Nope I didn't find it so, what might work for a book or film doesn't always make for an interesting single player game. I said Kriea's motivation was the only thing I found interesting.

 

Perhaps. I’m not much of a gamer myself. Never have been. It’s not just because I’m not really that interested in most games, it’s also because their aren’t many games like TSL, where you role-play as a character in a captivating setting and plot, and are surrounded by interesting, deep characters.

 

And I just got to love those dialogue choices. There’s no way I would’ve played KotOR and TSL if my character didn’t have those beloved dialogue choices. Oh, and I apologize if I sounded like a jerk in that post.

 

I didn’t even intend to type a mammoth post. I wasn’t even going to type a post, but I did. It ended up making me rush to get ready, and go kick one of my mate’s asses in a game of ping pong. It turns out I was the one who got flogged.

 

What the hell? I’ve strayed off topic. Umm…yeah, one of TKA-001’s comments about the Revan plot twist really ticked me off!

 

Now, time to reply to your comments; and a few others too.

 

Not only was TSL just as much a rip off of the OT it was just a rehash of KotOR. Write a synopsis of TSL under 400 words and you've pretty much got a synopsis that would work for KotOR.

 

At least TSL had some original concepts and villains though. KotOR didn’t. What you ask? I and Emperor Devon have already answered that.

 

Nihilus wasn't really a character just the deathstar in humanoid form. Or a metaphor for Sith greed and ambition, but you don't get the same sense of threat from him. There's no tension, no sense of urgency like with the death star closing on Yavin 4. He doesn't even come across with the same sense of mystery as Darth Maul. He's just this plot point to get past on to the real sith lord. Going back to the ESB comparision he's not even Boba Fett just the wampa or even one of the imperial walkers.

 

Yeah, it was like that for you, but not me, and not necessarily everyone else either.

 

1. ESB has the heroes on the run from the Empire. TSL has it's heroes on the run from the Sith.

 

2. ESB has a motley crew of bounty hunters looking for our heroes. TSL has a motley crew of bounty hunters looking for the Exile.

 

3. The Millenium Falcon malfunctions and they take refuge in an asteroid field to make repairs. The Ebon Hawk is damaged and takes refuge in an asteroid field to make repairs.

 

4. In ESB Luke has to find a Jedi Master (in hiding) and learn the ways of the force. In TSL the Exile has to relearn the force and find several Jedi Masters who are in hiding.

 

5. In ESB the only place they can go on leaving the asteroid field is a floating city, in TSL you have to go to a orbital city.

 

6. Luke has to face the dark side in the form of a vision of a sith lord. The exile also has to face visions of Sith Lords.

 

7. In ESB there's no real threat beyond facing Vader, who turn's out to be not who you think. In TSL there's no real threat other than defeating a Sith Lord, who turns out not to be who you think.

 

8. At the end of ESB the heroes take off in the MF minus one of their companions, in the light side ending they head off in the EH minus at least one of their companions.

 

9. And Nihilus' ship was far more a copy of a star destroyer than KotOR's sith capital ships and just as much a ripoff as the Ebon Hawk was. And don't forget the shuttle.

 

1. Not necessarily. Remember that you can set Revan to DS in TSL. But either way, yes, the Sith are back (they aren’t really stronger than ever though); it’s just that the Republic and the Jedi are weaker than ever!

 

2. Like who? Bastila and Carth? Yeah, only if Revan is LS though. Even then they aren’t really running from the Sith. They’re searching for them really. If Revan is DS, Bastila went looking for Revan in the unknown regions and Carth is presumably dead.

 

3. Canderous, HK-47 and T3-M4 help you fight the Sith. And Mission, Zaalbar and Jolee? They’re either dead or off somewhere doing something.

 

4. True. The bounty hunters in TSL aren’t hired by the Sith like in ESB however.

 

5. That planet where Luke fights Vader in TESB isn’t an asteroid field, is it? It’s been so long since I’ve seen it that I’ve forgotten. Or are you talking about Hoth? That isn’t an asteroid field.

 

6. The Exile isn’t looking for the Jedi Masters to help his/her training though.

 

7. That planet is called Bespin, isn’t it? Bah! Telos isn’t an orbital city by the way.

 

8. Can’t argue against that.

 

9. True.

 

10. I can’t even remember what ships the star destroyer’s in the OT are.

 

Then there's the characters, Atton is a pale copy of Solo, not just in looks but in background. Visas' background is similar to Leia's. TSL still has the same set of character types to recruit. Other than the two droids and Canderous returning there's

 

Carth = Atton/Disciple - Male beefcake

Bastila = Visas - Female Jedi Love interest

Juhani = Handmaiden - Female Warrior

Mission = Mira - Female Rogue

Zaalbar = Hanharr - Token Wookie

Jolee = Kreia - Gnarled Old Jedi Advisor

 

Bao-Dur and GO-TO are the only original additions.

 

I agree that Atton is a Han Solo rip-off; while Visas’ background is slightly similar to Leia’s (both characters home worlds were destroyed by people; both characters are linked to the major villains) that’s where it ends. They are totally different people. And Leia isn’t blind.

 

Carth and Atton are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT people. I fail to see how Disciple is like Carth. While Bastila and Visas are both the main romantic interests for the PC, how the hell does that make them similar?

 

Juhani and the Handmaiden are pretty similar, I agree; you could think of the Mira/Hanharr duo as a DS version of the Mission/Zaalbar duo, and while Jolee and Kreia are both wise Grey Jedi who have a lot to tell and know more than they let on, that’s where their similarities end.

 

As Emperor Devon said, TSL obviously had some things taken from ESB, but some of the major aspects of the plot are quite different. The whole "echoes in the Force" thing, Kreia’s goal to destroy the will of the force, Nihilus-like Sith and Darth Sion were original.

 

Whether you liked it or not is irrelevant; the point is, TSL DID introduce some new concepts to Star Wars. KotOR also took many (many more) things from the OT, but unlike its sequel, there are no major aspects of the plot that are different or original.

 

In the end, from my time in the forums i can say that just about all tsl chars are very, amazingly underrated. people claim them to be rip offs, when they obviously aren't. i myself like tsl and kotor equally, but i just wanted to get this out there.

 

Agreed. It seems to me that many of TSL’s characters aren’t well liked, because they don’t spoon feed you details about their background and have as much dialogue as most of your party members in KotOR.

 

This is not how a character should be judged. It’s not how much they say and how much they tell you about themselves that really counts; it’s what they say, how they act, why they say/act that way and what their motivations are that determines how interesting and well written they are.

 

Well I think it would have been better if they showed what happened to your companions in the first.

 

What relevance would this have to the plot though?

 

I have to agree to dissagree.

 

But ED is right. You can’t disagree with something that isn’t incorrect. The Exile’s wound in the force status makes him/her a very powerful force user. Add that to his/her unique bonding ability, the fact that he/she was the only force user who turned away from the dark side AND survived at Malachor V, stopped a planet eating Sith Lord, a Sith Lord who can regenerate, a Sith Lord who wanted to destroy the will of the force, and has the potential to become another Nihilus, and ah, the Exile is pretty bloody unique. All of the above is true.

 

kotor 1 was far more polished it doesnt really matter what any of you say

 

which game won more then 50 awards? was it kotor 2? nope

 

Umm….KotOR didn’t win 50 or so awards because it was a far better game than TSL, TSL didn’t win that many because (there were probably better Xbox games than TSL out in 2004) and many of the critics felt that the cut content in TSL really hurt the latter stages of the game, and I agree.

 

Did you know that many critics believe that TSL would have been a much better game than KotOR if it weren’t for the cut content? Just take a look at this forum. Quite a few people are of the opinion that if we got TSLRP KotOR II in the first place, it would have been better than KotOR.

 

By the way, make sure you actually read and comprehend what EagerWeasel said. I do not like some n00b telling me that my opinions don’t count. ~snipped~ Name calling like that is flaming, and this is your public warning not to do it again. If you guys can't discuss this without getting mad at each other, we'll be forced to close the thread. --Jae

[T-bolt]

Perhaps. I’m not much of a gamer myself. Never have been. It’s not just because I’m not really that interested in most games, it’s also because their aren’t many games like TSL, where you role-play as a character in a captivating setting and plot, and are surrounded by interesting, deep characters.

 

And I just got to love those dialogue choices. There’s no way I would’ve played KotOR and TSL if my character didn’t have those beloved dialogue choices.

Have you played Fallout, Planescape Torment, Arcanum or even Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines?

 

At least TSL had some original concepts and villains though. KotOR didn’t. What you ask? I and Emperor Devon have already answered that.

Kreia's motivation is original but that's about it. Nihilus is just a superweapon in humanoid form, but he could of easily have been a supergun creating artifical blackholes. Only he's easier to destroy as a humanoid and easier to implement. Sion, there was nothing original about Sion, he's as much a Vader copy as Malak and his ability to regenerate is just a common game plot device to make the endgame harder.

 

 

1. Not necessarily. Remember that you can set Revan to DS in TSL. But either way, yes, the Sith are back (they aren’t really stronger than ever though); it’s just that the Republic and the Jedi are weaker than ever!

 

2. Like who? Bastila and Carth? Yeah, only if Revan is LS though. Even then they aren’t really running from the Sith. They’re searching for them really. If Revan is DS, Bastila went looking for Revan in the unknown regions and Carth is presumably dead.

 

3. Canderous, HK-47 and T3-M4 help you fight the Sith. And Mission, Zaalbar and Jolee? They’re either dead or off somewhere doing something.

 

4. True. The bounty hunters in TSL aren’t hired by the Sith like in ESB however.

 

5. That planet where Luke fights Vader in TESB isn’t an asteroid field, is it? It’s been so long since I’ve seen it that I’ve forgotten. Or are you talking about Hoth? That isn’t an asteroid field.

 

6. The Exile isn’t looking for the Jedi Masters to help his/her training though.

 

7. That planet is called Bespin, isn’t it? Bah! Telos isn’t an orbital city by the way.

 

8. Can’t argue against that.

 

9. True.

 

10. I can’t even remember what ships the star destroyer’s in the OT are.

 

1. LS ending is considered cannon isn't it? I doubt the Empire had grown in strength, I could of said bigger and badder but it's just semantics.

 

2. The player, Atton and Kreia (to start with).

 

3. ? Your points no longer match with mine.

 

4. They are still chased down by a group of bounty hunters though.

 

5. I'm talking about the asteroid field the MF hides in after leaving Hoth, the one with the space slug.

 

6. If you can compare a Sith Lord with a mobile supergun to a Sith Lord with an immobile superfactory then you can split the difference between searching for a Jedi Master to learn the ways of the force, and searching for several Jedi Masters to learn about force bonds. Really they just replace starmaps though you can learn some Jedi techniques from each.

 

7. Yeah Bespin, and you first land on Telos space station. Which is in orbit and has all the amenitites of a city, so yeah orbital city.

 

10. Star Destroyers, big grey wedge shaped ships, or to put it another way the ships in the OT which look like Nihilus' vessel.

 

I agree that Atton is a Han Solo rip-off; while Visas’ background is slightly similar to Leia’s (both characters home worlds were destroyed by people; both characters are linked to the major villains) that’s where it ends. They are totally different people. And Leia isn’t blind.

She's blind to her true heritage, and blind to her force sensitivity though.

 

Carth and Atton are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT people. I fail to see how Disciple is like Carth. While Bastila and Visas are both the main romantic interests for the PC, how the hell does that make them similar?

 

Juhani and the Handmaiden are pretty similar, I agree; you could think of the Mira/Hanharr duo as a DS version of the Mission/Zaalbar duo, and while Jolee and Kreia are both wise Grey Jedi who have a lot to tell and know more than they let on, that’s where their similarities end.

Okay forget the Disciple since he's just there for balance in the love interest stakes, but as I said the characters are different but they fill the same roles. Archetypes might be the word I was looking for, Han, Luke, Leia etc were based on classic archetypes but in turn became new archetypes for the Star Wars Universe, KotOR uses these as the basis for some of the characters as you pointed out T3-M4/R2 D2, Hk-47/C3PO etc but it also creates it's own. TSL then uses the same archetypes as KotOR for 6 of it's party slots. The characters and classes might be different but Atton and Carth play the same role in each game, right down to directing you by comlink at the start of the game.

 

As Emperor Devon said, TSL obviously had some things taken from ESB, but some of the major aspects of the plot are quite different. The whole "echoes in the Force" thing, Kreia’s goal to destroy the will of the force, Nihilus-like Sith and Darth Sion were original.

 

Whether you liked it or not is irrelevant; the point is, TSL DID introduce some new concepts to Star Wars. KotOR also took many (many more) things from the OT, but unlike its sequel, there are no major aspects of the plot that are different or original.

Hmm KotOR's plot had many different aspects as well, the sith empire hadn't overthrown the republic, Revan wasn't a farm boy who joined a rebellion, the Star Forge isn't destroyed by a fighter launching torpedos down an exhaust vent.

 

The wound in the force might of been identified as such first in TSL but the shockwaves 'echoes' could be said to of been first concieved when Alderaan was destroyed and Old Ben felt the disturbance. Curious would he of been overwhelmed by the echoes in the force if the Millenium Falcon had reached the Alderaan system in time to see the destruction? Presumably Vader had prepared himself for the event and maybe even fed off of it.

 

Nihilus feeding off of the force energy of others is also nothing new, just the scale of it.

 

But ED is right. You can’t disagree with something that isn’t incorrect. The Exile’s wound in the force status makes him/her a very powerful force user. Add that to his/her unique bonding ability, the fact that he/she was the only force user who turned away from the dark side AND survived at Malachor V, stopped a planet eating Sith Lord, a Sith Lord who can regenerate, a Sith Lord who wanted to destroy the will of the force, and has the potential to become another Nihilus, and ah, the Exile is pretty bloody unique. All of the above is true.

The Exile's bonding ability was unique? Who created the bond between the Exile and Kreia? Force bonds in themselves certainly weren't unique otherwise why bother seeking out the Jedi Masters for advice on them, and the player and Bastila's link was probably a lesser type of force bond.

[jonathan7]

Meh I'll keep my post short and sweet as ED and the Architect have pretty much argued my opinion already.

 

KotOR = Copy of OT

 

TSL = Original concept that doesn't coppy the OT, perhaps a little form the PT but now much.

[Jediphile]

Wrong, K1 didn't have a very Star-Warsy feel, and neither did K2, for the same reasons.

 

1. They had absoloutely no Star Wars music anywhere.

 

2. They had sounds that sounded like the movie's sounds, not sounds that were from them.

 

This is not strictly correct. First of all, there are legal reasons for this, because the original Star Wars music is owned at least in part by John Williams. Therefore his music cannot be used indiscriminately in the games.

 

However, it does appear in both games during the opening crawl, and KotOR clearly has the Obi-Wan theme playing during the movie where the Ebon Hawk lands on Dantooine.

 

1. ESB has the heroes on the run from the Empire. TSL has it's heroes on the run from the Sith.

 

2. ESB has a motley crew of bounty hunters looking for our heroes. TSL has a motley crew of bounty hunters looking for the Exile.

 

3. The Millenium Falcon malfunctions and they take refuge in an asteroid field to make repairs. The Ebon Hawk is damaged and takes refuge in an asteroid field to make repairs.

 

4. In ESB Luke has to find a Jedi Master (in hiding) and learn the ways of the force. In TSL the Exile has to relearn the force and find several Jedi Masters who are in hiding.

 

5. In ESB the only place they can go on leaving the asteroid field is a floating city, in TSL you have to go to a orbital city.

 

6. Luke has to face the dark side in the form of a vision of a sith lord. The exile also has to face visions of Sith Lords.

 

7. In ESB there's no real threat beyond facing Vader, who turn's out to be not who you think. In TSL there's no real threat other than defeating a Sith Lord, who turns out not to be who you think.

 

8. At the end of ESB the heroes take off in the MF minus one of their companions, in the light side ending they head off in the EH minus at least one of their companions.

 

9. And Nihilus' ship was far more a copy of a star destroyer than KotOR's sith capital ships and just as much a ripoff as the Ebon Hawk was. And don't forget the shuttle.

 

1. The empire only chase some of the heroes in ESB and for very different reasons.

 

2. Yes, but personally I don't feel that it is significant in ways that can bear resemblance - in TSL the bounty hunters have very, very little signficance to the plot and is a very minor side-plot at best IMHO, whereas the bounty hunters are of major importance in ESB.

 

3. That's no asteriod - it's a space station!

 

4. Yes, but you cannot compare the two. Luke is looking for a master to learn about the force. That is not true of the exile, who already has Kreia to learn from. The exile is looking for the masters to enlist allies in his struggle against the sith, to learn about his unique force connection to Kreia, which is dangerous to them both, and possibly (if DS) to take revenge. Totally different reasons.

 

5. The Millennium Falcon was forced to go to Bespin for refuge, but the Ebon Hawk was just locked to go to Telos, and none of the characters could reprogram the navicomputer (well, T3 could, but chose not to). But, of course, you could say that Citadel Station is similar to Cloud City. Not enough to be a rip-off in my book, though. YMMV.

 

6. True. But what the signficance of those visions are in TSL are yet to be seen, I think. Also, Luke faces only his own fears and potential future. The exile has to deal with his past as well.

 

7. I disagree. TSL has dangerous to the exile crawling out of even the walls of the Ebon Hawk (Visas). The exile is hunted throughout the game. Luke, however, has so much time to prepare for a confrontation that Vader has to set a trap to lure him out.

 

8. Actually, we know very little of what happened at the end of TSL. It's one of the things that really bug me.

 

9. Yes, but you can blame Malak's ship for that too. Since Nihilus' ship was wreckage from Malachor V, there was no way it could be unique - it HAD to be like that to underscore his powers and, incidentally, his origin.

[stoffe]

This is not strictly correct. First of all, there are legal reasons for this, because the original Star Wars music is owned at least in part by John Williams. Therefore his music cannot be used indiscriminately in the games.

 

I doubt legal reasons would play any major part in that decision; it seems like nearly every Star Wars game that has been released uses at least parts of the Star Wars soundtrack. If LucasArts or the developers wanted to use that music they most likely would have.

 

Personally I prefer that they made a new soundtrack for the KOTOR games instead of just recycling the same old tracks for the hundredth time. It had the same sort of mood as the original Star Wars tracks, and fit the game well. A game doesn't have to slavishly follow the movies to be a good Star Wars game, IMO.

[Jediphile]

What else was there to do? Other than showing a crowd of people clapping at the PC for killing them, it ends in the same manner KotOR does: the bad guy(s) are dead and the galaxy is safe for a little. The only real difference is the lack of glamor and the promise of a sequel.

 

What else there is to do? Let's see...

 

1. Erm... The true Sith?

 

2. I have force bond with Kreia that is lethal to us both. Finding a way to remove that danger was a primary goal throughout the game, yet it is never resolved. And in the end Kreia dies with no consequence to the exile and no explanation. Huh?!?

 

3. I'm a wound in the force?!? The masters thought that was dangerous enough to immediately want to cut me off from the force completely. They don't get to do it, though, so.... what? Is the danger still there? We just don't know... It's unresolved.

 

I found Kreia's role as a Sith Lord, lengthy schemes and hatred of the Force to be quite different from Jolee. She's more like Sidious than him, and even then had very different goals and motivations.

 

I agree. While both may come off as aged and moody grey jedi on the surface, they are, in fact, totally different.

 

Jolee never tells anyone what they should do, because he thinks they should get there themselves. He'll help them do that, though, and as we learn, he does so to allow others (Revan) discover what is the right thing to do. If Revan ends up making the "wrong" choice (in the Rakatan temple), then Jolee even declares himself a jedi and vows to stop Revan, even it kills him.

 

Kreia is the exact opposite - she wants you to respect her opinion and act accordingly. Unlike Jolee, who is annoying by his very insistence on not giving you advice on your next course of action, Kreia constantly tells you want to do and why. And she wants you to use other people and sacrifice them to further your own goals. Even Kreia herself.

 

Both may masquerade as grey jedi, but Kreia is really a Sith at heart, while Jolee is a Jedi.

 

Indirectly they're quite similar. Both are giant space stations that guarantee ultimate victory to whoever controls them. The only difference is that the Death Star blows up people directly whereas the Star Forge produces an infinite number of ships to do the blowing up.

 

Quite so. If nothing else, the closing bit of the DS ending underscored that pretty severely...

 

She's blind to her true heritage, and blind to her force sensitivity though.

 

No, she's unaware of it. Blind implies denial, and that is never true of Leia. Indeed, she always seemed quite too willing to accept it all, when Luke finally told her IMHO. Leia is nothing like Visas. Visas lost her ideals and her way and struggles to reclaim her moral center throughout TSL. Leia, however, is THE moral center of the OT, and far more so than either Han, who was always a bit of a "scoundrel", and Luke, who is enticed by the dark side by his own desire for power and adventure. Nobody is more the idealist in OT than Leia is, and she never wavers. Visas is the exact opposite - she is uncertain of her own position from the moment you meet her until she finally confronts Nihilus with you.

 

Archetypes might be the word I was looking for, Han, Luke, Leia etc were based on classic archetypes but in turn became new archetypes for the Star Wars Universe, KotOR uses these as the basis for some of the characters as you pointed out T3-M4/R2 D2, Hk-47/C3PO etc but it also creates it's own. TSL then uses the same archetypes as KotOR for 6 of it's party slots. The characters and classes might be different but Atton and Carth play the same role in each game, right down to directing you by comlink at the start of the game.

 

"Pilot of the ship" is a function, not an archetype. You could say that both Han, Carth and Atton have a roguish streak in their greyish background, but other than that they have very little in common. Han and Carth are both disillusioned warriors in danger of losing their ideals. They are also eventually both redeemed by the woman they love (if Revan is LSF).

 

Atton is not like that. His "greyish" background is so dark it's almost black, and not even the exile's love can save him from that - Kreia knows that, and Atton does too. Atton has not merely lost his faith, he's lost his very soul. He's a murderer and an assassin, and the worst part is that he has accepted it in his heart too, which means that he can never accept redemption, because he doesn't believe it's possible for him, no matter how much good he may try to do to atone for his misdeeds. He may be seen as a romance option in TSL, but note that unlike both Disciple, Handmaiden, and Visas, it never leads to anything with Atton. The only scene where it did was in the LSF ending, where it can in his tragic death. Because that's the word that describes Atton most of all - tragic. Not just because of what he did, but also because of his disposition - he has lost all faith even in himself.

 

Hmm KotOR's plot had many different aspects as well, the sith empire hadn't overthrown the republic, Revan wasn't a farm boy who joined a rebellion, the Star Forge isn't destroyed by a fighter launching torpedos down an exhaust vent.

 

The empire had not completely destroyed the rebellion, though.

 

And no, wasn't a farm boy. However, he was a a jedi who fell to the dark side, became a sith lord and eventually redeemed himself by destroying the dark lord of the sith and so saving the galaxy. Still doesn't sound particularly original to me, somehow...

 

The Exile's bonding ability was unique? Who created the bond between the Exile and Kreia? Force bonds in themselves certainly weren't unique otherwise why bother seeking out the Jedi Masters for advice on them, and the player and Bastila's link was probably a lesser type of force bond.

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "such bonds are a connection that can be formed at moments of crisis - or in the slow understanding that grows between master and apprentice.It is most common between two beings who are sensitive to the Force. It allows the transmission of feelings, of influence. {Musing}It was something you were gifted with, as I recall, before your fall. You formed such attachments easier than most - even to those who could feel the Force only faintly. {Rueful}Even Vrook could not ignore it, which is saying something. {Frowns}That is most unusual - and unnatural. I have never heard of a bond of such strength. There were a few within the Order who knew more than I did of such bonds - but their students were few, lost in the Mandalorian Wars."

 

Force bonds are common, yes. The exile's, however, is anything but common.

[EnIgmA_XX]

"Pilot of the ship" is a function, not an archetype. You could say that both Han, Carth and Atton have a roguish streak in their greyish background, but other than that they have very little in common. Han and Carth are both disillusioned warriors in danger of losing their ideals. They are also eventually both redeemed by the woman they love (if Revan is LSF).

 

Atton is not like that. His "greyish" background is so dark it's almost black, and not even the exile's love can save him from that - Kreia knows that, and Atton does too. Atton has not merely lost his faith, he's lost his very soul. He's a murderer and an assassin, and the worst part is that he has accepted it in his heart too, which means that he can never accept redemption, because he doesn't believe it's possible for him, no matter how much good he may try to do to atone for his misdeeds. He may be seen as a romance option in TSL, but note that unlike both Disciple, Handmaiden, and Visas, it never leads to anything with Atton. The only scene where it did was in the LSF ending, where it can in his tragic death. Because that's the word that describes Atton most of all - tragic. Not just because of what he did, but also because of his disposition - he has lost all faith even in himself.

 

Quoted for Emphasis. even though Han and Atton seem quite the same on the outside, they way they feel about their past is different. Atton is a murderer and truly believes it in every sense of the word.

 

Leia and Visas both had their homeworlds destroyed and both were connected to a Sith Lord.

 

even still, how they actually react to this happening couldn't be more different. the destruction of Leia's homeworld makes her try even harder to pursue her goal, the destruction of the empire. for Visas, she is assimilated into darth Nihilus's belief in the destruction of all things. i can't exactly remember why, but it was something along the lines of "life is too miserable" or something like that.

 

i never really got to know Juhani, so you may have a pretty good point, but i was refering more to their force sensitivity. Juhani is, a fallen jedi, i guess, and i don't know too much else. Handmainden was instructed by Atris to not feel the force. she is curious about the force and wants to know about if the male exile actually is what Atris describes. this makes them different in my book.

 

a few peole have put in pretty good points about Jolee and Kreia already, so i won't compare them any further.

 

as for Mission/Zaalbar and Mira/Hanharr, gender and race similarities never meant much to me. Mission and Zaalbar are friends, they get along quite well. Mira and Hanharr are actually totally opposite of this. Hanharr hates Mira about the whole life debt thing, and Revan is lucky that he/she saved Zaalbar instead of Hanharr. Hanharr is constantly stalking Mira, and is trying to kill her. just because Zaalbar and Hanharr are wookies doesn't mean they're the same. they have very different personalities and backgrounds, although i must admit, if there's a KOTOR 3, they don't have to put a wookie every time. This is also true with Mission and Mira. if you talk to both of them for a while, you'll notice they both have their own different distinct personalities. just because they're both women with wookies doesn't really mean anything, it's about the background and personality.

[Melly]

Leia vs. Visas? Leia is human, a senator, a princess, and as someone mentioned earlier an idealist. Who is motivated to remove the oppression of Empire from the galaxy. Her homeworld was destroyed, but she didn’t fall at Vader or Tarkin’s feet with a, “I yield Master.” She’s Force sensitive and her father is one of the biggest, baddest Sith to ever cross the galaxy.

 

Visas is your average Miraluka, who happened to be the sole survivor of the destruction of her planet (Leia was not the only Alderaanian to survive, btw.). She let herself be bent to Nihilus’ will and helped him destroy other planets like he destroyed hers, until she meets the Exile.

 

Handmaiden vs. Juhani?

Juhani is a warrior and female. That’s where the similarities between her and HM end. Juhani’s homeworld was destroyed by the Mandalorians 20 years prior to their attack on the Republic. After that her parents fled to Taris were the oppression of aliens there made life unnecessarily hard for her. Her father was killed in a bar fight when he was drunk/high, her mother worked and starved herself to death in an attempt to keep Juhani alive, unfortunately she borrowed money from the Exchange a debt Juhani inherited and couldn’t pay so they sold her into slavery. Fortunately before Xor (who, btw, is the same man that killed her father) could take possession of her Revan and her Jedi show up and kick the Exchange off the planet. This event leads Juhani to realize her calling, she wants to be a Jedi, to help people the way that Revan and her Jedi helped her. So she works her way off Taris to Dantooine, where she is accepted and begins her training. However, her (understandable) anger at her past gets her in way leading her to the confrontation with Quatra and her fleeing to the grove which is where we meet her in the game for the first time.

 

Handmaiden is the illegitimate child of Yusani’s of Enchani and Arren Kae, Jedi Master. She is looked down on by her sisters because of the “taint” of her conception. The betrayal the was involved in it. She’s a servant of Atris, and seeks to become the best of her sisters, but her interest in things other than fighting (read: the Force) keep getting in her way. Her father was killed by Revan, and, possibly, her mother is an ex-Sith Lord.

 

Nope not much similarity there.

 

Oh, about the music thing. The music on Dxun in the second game sounds just like the music in The Phantom Menace when the Federation ships are landing on Naboo.

[T-bolt]

9. Yes, but you can blame Malak's ship for that too. Since Nihilus' ship was wreckage from Malachor V, there was no way it could be unique - it HAD to be like that to underscore his powers and, incidentally, his origin.

Blame Malaks ship? Nihilus' ship was weckage yes, but it had to be a grey wedge shaped vessel? It neither matches the sith captial ships seen it KotOR which also have some star destroyer infulences nor does it match the Republic captial ships which all fly republic colours.

 

1. The empire only chase some of the heroes in ESB and for very different reasons.

 

2. Yes, but personally I don't feel that it is significant in ways that can bear resemblance - in TSL the bounty hunters have very, very little signficance to the plot and is a very minor side-plot at best IMHO, whereas the bounty hunters are of major importance in ESB.

 

3. That's no asteriod - it's a space station!

 

4. Yes, but you cannot compare the two. Luke is looking for a master to learn about the force. That is not true of the exile, who already has Kreia to learn from. The exile is looking for the masters to enlist allies in his struggle against the sith, to learn about his unique force connection to Kreia, which is dangerous to them both, and possibly (if DS) to take revenge. Totally different reasons.

 

5. The Millennium Falcon was forced to go to Bespin for refuge, but the Ebon Hawk was just locked to go to Telos, and none of the characters could reprogram the navicomputer (well, T3 could, but chose not to). But, of course, you could say that Citadel Station is similar to Cloud City. Not enough to be a rip-off in my book, though. YMMV.

 

6. True. But what the signficance of those visions are in TSL are yet to be seen, I think. Also, Luke faces only his own fears and potential future. The exile has to deal with his past as well.

 

7. I disagree. TSL has dangerous to the exile crawling out of even the walls of the Ebon Hawk (Visas). The exile is hunted throughout the game. Luke, however, has so much time to prepare for a confrontation that Vader has to set a trap to lure him out.

 

People are splitting hairs over minor differences, these were examples to show that for every accusation of KotOR being nothing but a retelling of SW, the same accusations can be levelled at TSL.

 

"Pilot of the ship" is a function, not an archetype. You could say that both Han, Carth and Atton have a roguish streak in their greyish background, but other than that they have very little in common. Han and Carth are both disillusioned warriors in danger of losing their ideals. They are also eventually both redeemed by the woman they love (if Revan is LSF).

 

I did say archetype only 'might' be the word I was looking for.

 

In any party based role playing game the followers will fill certain roles, which will leave the character options to handle most situations, those roles tend to be ranged fighter, melee fighter, healer, spell caster, thief. Plus the first character to join you will act as guide, at least for the first part of the game. Explaining the game universe to you. Then there's the mentor character who are pivotal to the main plot or at least will explain the main plot to the character.

 

Forget for a minute the character classes and backgrounds and look at the roles they play in the game.

 

Carth and Atton are both the guide character who explain and lead the player through the beginning of the game. As well as ranged fighters.

 

Jolee and Kreia are both the Mentor figure who offers sage advice, the fact that Kreia is also a pale copy of Palpatine does not affect the role she plays in the party.

 

Visas and Bastila both spell casters.

 

Mission and Mira both offer the roguish skills the player might not of taken.

 

Juhani and the Handmaiden are both minor melee fighter characters.

 

 

Now look at who plays each role in each game

 

Carth and Atton both handsome (presumably) males, they are both skeptical about the path the Jedi characters lead the player on.

 

Jolee and Kreia both older grey Jedi. Without Jolee you can't progress beyond a certain point, without talking to Kreia the plot doesn't move along.

 

Visas and Bastila both beautiful (presumably) female characters and both are in peril from the darkside.

 

They might of swapped the Jolee and Bastila roles around by putting Kreia in at the begining and leaving Visas to later in the game but still they fill the same slot in the party. They might of changed soldier to scoundrel, they might of changed backgrounds but they didn't throw the lot out and start again. Out of the original 9 slots 3 characters are reused and two new slots are added but 6 spaces in the party are filled by superficially similar characters. Female melee fighter, female rogue, male guide, Jedi Mentor, female spell caster, token Wookie.

[Jediphile]

Blame Malaks ship? Nihilus' ship was weckage yes, but it had to be a grey wedge shaped vessel? It neither matches the sith captial ships seen it KotOR which also have some star destroyer infulences nor does it match the Republic captial ships which all fly republic colours.

 

Except Carth actually recognizes the layout of Malak's Leviathan in KotOR. How is that possible unless it's a republic ship? Besides, the Ravager is a wrecked ship from Malachor V, which was the site of the climactic battle between the Mandalorians and the Republic fleet. It may not have been intended originally, but it is a pretty inescapable conclusion that both the Leviathan and the Ravager were republic ships, even if they look nothing like the Endar Spire or other ships used by the republic in the games.

 

People are splitting hairs over minor differences, these were examples to show that for every accusation of KotOR being nothing but a retelling of SW, the same accusations can be levelled at TSL.

 

They why did you go into such detail yourself?

 

I did say archetype only 'might' be the word I was looking for.

 

In any party based role playing game the followers will fill certain roles, which will leave the character options to handle most situations, those roles tend to be ranged fighter, melee fighter, healer, spell caster, thief. Plus the first character to join you will act as guide, at least for the first part of the game. Explaining the game universe to you. Then there's the mentor character who are pivotal to the main plot or at least will explain the main plot to the character.

 

Forget for a minute the character classes and backgrounds and look at the roles they play in the game.

 

Carth and Atton are both the guide character who explain and lead the player through the beginning of the game. As well as ranged fighters.

 

Now you are confusing classes, roles and archetypes. Carth and Atton may be ranged fighters, but that's just their class - it has no bearing on what sort of characters they are or what role they serve in the game's plot.

 

Also, there are no spell casters in Star Wars (which is a good thing) - there are jedi and non-jedi in various classes.

 

Jolee and Kreia are both the Mentor figure who offers sage advice, the fact that Kreia is also a pale copy of Palpatine does not affect the role she plays in the party.

 

I disagree completely. Kreia could give Palpatine lessons in being sneaky, and unlike Sidious, she actually has a cause beyond some hollow lust for power.

 

Visas and Bastila both spell casters.

 

No, they are jedi. So what? So are the exile, Revan, Juhani, Jolee, Kreia, and - if you so desire - Atton, Mira, Handmaiden, Disciple, and Bao-Dur.

 

And those are classes, not roles. What classes they have is irrelevant to what purpose they serve in the plot. That's why I mention all the potential jedi. Bao-Dur is an important link to the exile's past at Malachor V. That is true whether he becomes a jedi or remains a tech specialist. Atton is playing the fool to hide his evil past. Whether you change him into a jedi or not changes nothing. Only for Handmaiden does it actually make any difference to the plot whether you turn her into a jedi or not, but then she is, of course, not canon...

 

Mission and Mira both offer the roguish skills the player might not of taken.

 

They can do that, but then so can Atton in TSL. He too is a rogue, and you get him in the party a long, long time before Mira. Heck, you don't even get Mira, if you play DS. Does that mean Atton is TSL's Mission? Of course not.

 

Now look at who plays each role in each game

 

Carth and Atton both handsome (presumably) males, they are both skeptical about the path the Jedi characters lead the player on.

 

Actually, Carth is very supportive of the jedi. He distrusts their secrecy, and there are lingering emotions of frustration over the council's refusal to enter the Mandalorian Wars, but he also understands the need for the jedi and so accepts it albeit reluctantly.

 

Atton is very different - he fears the jedi because he fears what they will do to him if they discover his past crimes. He is a pathetic being, and he is ashamed of his own cowardice, too. More than anything, Atton is tragic because he has retained his own moral center and so understands exactly the extend of his crimes. Consequently, he can never forgive himself. That is his constant punishment.

 

Carth, however, has lingering feelings of revenge towards Saul Karath for his betrayal. In that sense Carth and Atton are opposites, because Atton is similar to Karath in some ways and thus someone Carth would probably hate intensely. I mean, Karath betrayed the republic to prove his loyalty to Revan and Malak. That's why Carth hates him. Didn't Atton do the same by fighting for the republic and then becoming one of Revan's assassins?

 

Jolee and Kreia both older grey Jedi. Without Jolee you can't progress beyond a certain point, without talking to Kreia the plot doesn't move along.

 

True, but it's not much basis to compare them on. I could call Bastila and Kreia the same on that basis too, since they are both jedi woman who see themselves as mentors to the pc and who are indeed bonded to the pc. Jolee has no such bond with the pc, appears much, much later in the game, and insists on not being a mentor-character.

 

Visas and Bastila both beautiful (presumably) female characters and both are in peril from the darkside.

 

Juhani is also in peril from the dark side. Indeed, any force sensitive is.

 

They might of swapped the Jolee and Bastila roles around by putting Kreia in at the begining and leaving Visas to later in the game but still they fill the same slot in the party. They might of changed soldier to scoundrel, they might of changed backgrounds but they didn't throw the lot out and start again. Out of the original 9 slots 3 characters are reused and two new slots are added but 6 spaces in the party are filled by superficially similar characters. Female melee fighter, female rogue, male guide, Jedi Mentor, female spell caster, token Wookie.

 

Those are all classes, not roles.

[The Architect]

Sorry Jae (once again). Normally I am quite a cool, calm and collective individual, but I guess I have a DS (temper) about me. I blame my Mum. It’s the Italian traits in me. It doesn’t help that I write/type how I talk either.

 

Resorting to personal insults doesn’t contribute anything constructive to the discussion, nor does it set a good basis for discussion, or help my opinions get heard. I am aware of this, yet at times, still resort to insults. That’s hypocrisy and immaturity I guess. I will not to resort to insults in the future.

 

Back on topic: I agree with everything Jediphile has said pretty much. Eh, I’ll think of this as a tag team. I’m out, and Jediphile’s in. This doesn’t mean I won’t contribute anything to this discussion in the future, but since the J man has chipped in his two cents, it isn’t necessary for me to always make comments, since I’d just be repeating what the Jedi said, in most likely a less articulate way.