TSL Vs. KOTOR

[SilentScope001]

The bond between the Exile and Kreia is well explained. When you first talk to her about it she states that when both of them are in battle than their minds are prepared to shield them from the pain. And Zez says that for the bond to break one of them would have to die.

 

Oh, and I did forget Vrook telling me, in no uncertain terms, "Are you sure such a bond actually exist, or that someone else is telling you that?"

[Jediphile]

The bond between the Exile and Kreia is well explained. When you first talk to her about it she states that when both of them are in battle than their minds are prepared to shield them from the pain. And Zez says that for the bond to break one of them would have to die.

 

That's not quite what he says, though...

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "such bonds are a connection that can be formed at moments of crisis - or in the slow understanding that grows between master and apprentice.It is most common between two beings who are sensitive to the Force. It allows the transmission of feelings, of influence. {Musing}It was something you were gifted with, as I recall, before your fall. You formed such attachments easier than most - even to those who could feel the Force only faintly. {Rueful}Even Vrook could not ignore it, which is saying something. {Frowns}That is most unusual - and unnatural. I have never heard of a bond of such strength. There were a few within the Order who knew more than I did of such bonds - but their students were few, lost in the Mandalorian Wars. It was rumored that Revan studied such bonding deeply, both through the Jedi histories and with certain teachers, before he left the Order and went to war. It was rumored that Revan studied such bonding deeply, both through the Jedi histories and with certain teachers, before he left the Order and went to war. I do not know - a bond between two living beings is not something easily broken. It not a choice... it is like breaking a feeling. Like turning away from the Force.To break a bond, your feelings would have to change, or one of you would have to die - but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply... it would simply be empty, a wound.{Becomes quieter at the end}One of you would have to die, but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply... it would simply be empty, a wound."

 

1. The exile's bond with Kreia is unlike any Zez-Kai Ell has known, so anything he says about it can only be speculation, since he has never known of a bond of such strength before.

 

2. Exile and Kreia wanted the bond cut in the first place because it was a danger, since they both suspected that the other would die if one of them was killed. This danger, first demonstrated by the exile suffering heavily when Kreia lost her hand, was the primary reason why the exile and Kreia began to seek out the jedi masters in the first place. If you can kill one of them and merely have the bond end, then it is no threat to either of them. This is also Kreia's threat against the exile to force him to come to Malachor V and confront her, since she would otherwise kill herself and thereby presumably take exile with her in death. Although we can speculate on whether that was an empty threat or not, it was compelling enough that both Atris and exile believed it.

[T-bolt]

By that logic I suppose Vader is not Luke's father given that he fell to the dark side...

No because we have the prequels to back this up as well as RotJ. Not just Vader's word.

 

No, that's not how it's described in the original material.

That's still what it boils down to though! At basic level that's how it can be described.

 

Sure you can compare them, but they are still nothing alike.

Same with Malak and Vader.

 

Just because you choose to insist that Exar Kun's actions on Yavin IV are similar to what Nihilus could do, that doesn't make it so. Obvious difference: Nihilus could drain any and all jedi on the surface of Katarr from orbit, while Exar Kun could drain not a single jedi in orbit from the ground.

Except we never see Nihilus do that, we never see him use any powers beyond those of a regular dark force user. All we know for sure is that something drained the life on Kattar. Nothing beyond that.

 

Ok, fair enough - let's leave other games out of it. In that case I still think that TSL is far more original, since Kreia's goals and Nihilus' powers are unlike anything we've seen in KotOR or the movies, while KotOR has themes and villains very much like those of the movies.

Except we never see Nihilus' powers beyond the failed attempt and the other general force powers he uses during your confrontation. Kreia was much like Palpatine and Vergere, using The Architects criteria both Nihilus and Sion are similar to Malak and Vader, both tall, both sith, one's bald and scarred the other is all mysterious in black.

 

Given how many people disagree with you (and to what degree), it seems to me that it is not quite as "obvious" as you claim. You could at least acknowledge that not everybody agrees with you.

Only a few, directly with me at least. But not everyone. But yeah obviously I'm not getting through to you so I might as well make this my last post on the matter.

 

And I have written no fanfics for TSL. At most I have mused about its secrets, which is what good games should make players do.

 

He would crush them all before they even got to fire. Lobbing grenades is no problem, since he can just use the force to throw them right back. And Mandalore had the rather distinct advantage of Nihilus being far more interested in exile and Visas. Not an unwelcome distraction to be sure. Besides, I'm not certain if explosions even work on him.

As Carth says, "Hmm. I guess that no Jedi ability, no matter how powerful, makes up for being completly surprised and outmatched."

 

Actually, that idea hails all the way back to the "Outlander" comic books around the time when Episode I hit the streets, which was way back in 1999 or so.

Didn't outlander have humans who were captured and integrated into Tusken society, kind of like the Native Americans and the European Settlers. Didn't the comics also show an unmasked very unhuman looking Tusken in one issue. Kind of big difference between adopting humans into your clan and being the origin of the species in the GFFA.

 

Not really. First of all, it did not originate from KotOR, and second, how has it impact Star Wars in any way? Kreia's philosophies, on the other hand, have expanded the idea of what the Force may be.

Except that the idea could be used to explain this much covered subject once and for all, while on the other hand Kreia's ideas will probably never take off as it would reflect too badly on the force. Which is after all the centre of what makes Star Wars different from Star Trek or anyother scifi franchise.

 

Then why did they originally choose to make Vima Sunrider, a character created by Tom Veitch, a central character of their story? No, it didn't end up that way, but that was due to the aforementioned legal controversy over the Sunrider name.

So? If they could of gotten her in it still could of have had a different approach. Or if the concept from the start had been slightly different they might never of needed her in there at all. If the game was commissioned as an official tie-in to the comics don't you think they would of a, kept a similar appearance graphically (it's only 50 years on but could be set 50 years before the prequels from the look of the costumes and ships etc) b, had tales of the jedi somewhere in the title or c, gotten the legal go ahead to use Vima?

 

The only thing I see it borrowing from ESB is the darker mood and the cliffhanger-sort-of ending. And given that it gives us Kreia and Nihilus, I really can't blame it for anything else it might have chosen to borrow - those two are already well above and beyond the call of duty in my book.

I've already posted comparisons between TSL and ESB. What were you nitpicks, they didn't land on an asteroid in TSL but a space station. Yet wasn't the mining complex built into an asteroid? And in KotOR you don't exactly start with two droids and take the escape pods down to Tatooine now do you.

 

Because that's what happens in all cRPGs. What you suggest is not a rip-off of KotOR but rather following the tradition of pacing and gameplay in most cRPGs around. I can't blame TSL for that either.

Usually it's only platform games or shooters than follow a formula so closely. Yet in KotOR when something is scripted like running into a sith lord on a republic ship and your companion buying you time to escape then in TSL it has to work the same way, or how the first part of the game is very linear until you've got your lightsaber then it opens up in the middle. If something happens in KotOR there's usually something very similar in TSL at a similar point in the game that makes it more the rehash than a sequel.

 

Are you implying that Visas would lie about how her home world was attacked, and who it was attacked by, for example? You seem to be forgetting about the word of the Jedi Masters. You are a wound in the force. Visas was Nihilus apprentice/slave. All life on Katarr was eaten by Nihilus, who is a planet eating Sith Lord and so on. This is verified by more than one individual (and not at the same time, in the same place) in the game.

If Visas is actually what she appears to be. We know force sight can be learned, and personalities and memories can be altered with the force.

 

Hypocrisy my ass. I don't see how your comparisons aren't as so-called "paper thin" as mine. KotOR’s clichés weren’t miniscule my friend.

I never said I wasn't making basic comparisons, but neither did I tear down your as you say 'paper thin' comparisons. I've stated several times I'm not defending KotOR but trying to show you that TSL isn't the original masterpiece you think it is. But if it's alright for you to make paper thin accusations but it's not alright for me to do so then that's being hypocritical.

 

And Malak and Vader are pretty bloody similar if you ask me.

There are a lot of differences. He became a sith to gain the power to save his wife from dying in child birth, he was pulled to the dark side by someone who he didn't know was a force user. He is the personal representitive of the legally elected leader of the legitimate government, he was trying to put down an insurrection, he was only the apprentice and never the master, and at the end he's the one who saves the day and defeats the ultimate evil. Not at all like Malak.

 

 

Name me at least one plot hole (that cut content wouldn’t have explained) in TSL?

Well I haven't been following the cut content restoration so I can't answer that. But I've already posted what I think are weaknesses in the plot.

 

What? Its plot only touches on similar aspects. Lol! It’s exactly the same. I, and others, have already pointed out KotOR’s clichés. But go on. Tell me what aspects of the plot in KotOR weren’t copied from the movies or other Star Wars material? The only thing I found original about KotOR was Jolee and HK-47.

It's not exactly the same, where's the secret plans of the starforge carried in the droids memory, or attacking the starforge in a fighter, rescuing Bastila from the starforge and heading off to the rebel base (not a garbage compactor in sight). Where's the starforge going around blowing up planets, where's there training on a swamp planet with yoda. Is Bastila your sister or not? Where's Bespin or having one of your friends incased in carbonite. When do you meet ewoks and blow up the Starforge II? Where's does Malak redeem himself and destroy the emperor? When does the player character get their hand cut off or become the last known Jedi? Sure there are similarities to some of the moments in the film, but it's not an exact copy and TSL has just as many moments.

 

Ah, but it’s been established that the official canonical Revan is a light-side male, so we do know that Malak or DS Revan doesn’t officially succeed, thus there is no sense of threat in KotOR. Or, if you choose to ignore canon, then remember that in TSL, the Exile can go DS, and can became a major threat to the galaxy, so if you argue that there was a sense of threat in KotOR simply because Revan could go DS, I can do the same for the Exile.

Except canon was established after the fact which doesn't affect the first time you play, or did you go look up which end was canon before you played? And the Exile ruling the sith empire is the same as Malak or Revan ruling, it could have happened at least for a while without threatening the entire known history of the GFFA.

 

Remember that DS Exile has the potential to become another Nihilus. Not necessarily to the same level, but either way, DS Exile could be very dangerous, just like DS Revan. Did you know that?

Yes I did, but then it's the same situation as Nihilus, it could never happen because it didn't happen.

 

The sith nearly defeating the republic and ruling most of the known galaxy for a few years doesn't threaten Star Wars as we know it, it even opens up new storylines. But all life in the galaxy being devoured is a corner that is kind of hard to write yourself out of.

[The Architect]

Except we never see Nihilus do that, we never see him use any powers beyond those of a regular dark force user. All we know for sure is that something drained the life on Kattar. Nothing beyond that.

 

If it wasn’t Darth Nihilus that drained all life on Katarr, then where was this mysterious object or individual that did it in TSL then? Where did this other mysterious object or individual go? Why just call it quits and retire after eating all life on Katarr? How else do you think that Visas became Nihilus’ apprentice? Or what, do you doubt that Visas (who’s a Miraluka) is from Katarr (a Miraluka world) as well? Why would she lie about that?

 

Remember the whole point of the influence system? The more influence you gain with your companions, the more trust/respect/friendship/whatever you gain from them, and when you get all that jazz from someone, they’re unlikely to lie to you about something so major and personal, are they? Haven’t the developers or some canon source actually officially stated that Nihilus drained all life on Katarr anyway?

 

Except we never see Nihilus' powers beyond the failed attempt and the other general force powers he uses during your confrontation. Kreia was much like Palpatine and Vergere, using The Architects criteria both Nihilus and Sion are similar to Malak and Vader, both tall, both sith, one's bald and scarred the other is all mysterious in black.

 

Palpatine isn’t an inhuman planet eating void in the force like Nihilus is, Sion doesn’t have a metallic voice like Vader does, Sion cares only for the death of all Jedi, unlike Vader, and they aren’t in possession of any super weapon or big space station or whatever you want to call it, so they aren’t quite the same.

 

As Carth says, "Hmm. I guess that no Jedi ability, no matter how powerful, makes up for being completly surprised and outmatched."

 

Yes, but Nihilus is no ordinary Jedi or Sith. How can you sneak up on someone that can detect force users from thousands of miles away (this has been proven since he drained all life on Katarr from orbit)? Only another wound in the force or battalion of skilled battle droids would have a chance against Nihilus. And maybe Visas too, since she is tied to him in some way.

 

I never said I wasn't making basic comparisons, but neither did I tear down your as you say 'paper thin' comparisons. I've stated several times I'm not defending KotOR but trying to show you that TSL isn't the original masterpiece you think it is. But if it's alright for you to make paper thin accusations but it's not alright for me to do so then that's being hypocritical.

 

I just don't agree with you that my accusations are paper thin, that’s all. Maybe the Malak one is, but not the others.

 

There are a lot of differences. He became a sith to gain the power to save his wife from dying in child birth, he was pulled to the dark side by someone who he didn't know was a force user. He is the personal representitive of the legally elected leader of the legitimate government, he was trying to put down an insurrection, he was only the apprentice and never the master, and at the end he's the one who saves the day and defeats the ultimate evil. Not at all like Malak.

 

Sure, they don't have the same back stories, but surely you must see how the character of Malak was based on the character of Vader (and aren't nothing alike) based on the similarities I’ve said. The Star Wars data bank (which is an “official” source of Star Wars material) even says that Malak is very similar to Vader. I think even BioWare admitted that the character of Malak was inspired by Vader and was meant to be like him. I’m not sure though. I can’t really be bothered looking into it either.

 

It's not exactly the same, where's the secret plans of the starforge carried in the droids memory

 

That was in the PT, not the OT.

 

, or attacking the starforge in a fighter,

 

As big of a rip-off of the OT as what KotOR is, I think that even if they tried, they still wouldn’t have been able to copy every single thing from the OT. Of course there has to be SOME differences.

 

rescuing Bastila from the starforge and heading off to the rebel base (not a garbage compactor in sight).

 

So what? It’s the concept of rescuing an attractive female character important to the “good guys” of the plot that’s stolen from the OT. The only difference is, you rescue (or free) Bastila on Taris via winning a swoop race. Still the same concept though. You don’t rescue any attractive female character important to the “good guys” of the plot in TSL do you? So how is it a cookie-cutter copy of KotOR then? That’s 1-0 to TSL.

 

Where's the starforge going around blowing up planets,

 

So? It’s the concept of a Sith Lord (the main villain) being in possession of a big space station used to crush their enemies and assist their efforts to conquer the galaxy that is stolen from the OT. There is no Death Star, Star Forge or non living entity that a Sith Lord uses as a super weapon against their enemies in TSL, is there? So how is it a cookie-cutter copy of KotOR then? That’s 2-0 to TSL.

 

where's there training on a swamp planet with yoda. Is Bastila your sister or not? Where's Bespin or having one of your friends incased in carbonite. When do you meet ewoks and blow up the Starforge II? Where's does Malak redeem himself and destroy the emperor? When does the player character get their hand cut off or become the last known Jedi? Sure there are similarities to some of the moments in the film, but it's not an exact copy and TSL has just as many moments.

 

Okay fine, I’ll give you that. Yeah, at least they didn’t sink that low with a "Bastila is your sister plot twist", but they decided make the Revan/Bastila romance a rip-off of the Leia/Han romance in how Bastila at first is trying to deny/hide her feelings for Revan and they exchange smart ass remarks with each other (although that’s very common in romances). Did TSL have such a romance set up? No. So how is KotOR a cookie cutter copy of TSL then? That's 3-0.

 

Hmm, come to think of it, I guess KotOR ripped off ANH more so than TESB or RotJ. Still, it’s 3-0 to TSL.

 

Except canon was established after the fact which doesn't affect the first time you play, or did you go look up which end was canon before you played?

 

No, I didn’t. Still, I felt no sense of threat from Malak, because there’s no possible way in the game for him to succeed in killing Revan and taking over the galaxy (and I think it was obvious that you weren’t going to lose to him), and I’m not going to feel any sense of threat from my own character!

 

And the Exile ruling the sith empire is the same as Malak or Revan ruling, it could have happened at least for a while without threatening the entire known history of the GFFA.

 

So then why did you say that TSL suffered from the feeling of no sense of threat when you admit that DS Exile ruling would be just the same as DS Revan and Malak ruling?

 

Yes I did, but then it's the same situation as Nihilus, it could never happen because it didn't happen.

 

The sith nearly defeating the republic and ruling most of the known galaxy for a few years doesn't threaten Star Wars as we know it, it even opens up new storylines. But all life in the galaxy being devoured is a corner that is kind of hard to write yourself out of.

 

Well, DS Exile doesn’t necessarily have to be a carbon copy of Nihilus, in how he was capable of eliminating all life in the galaxy. DS Exile might be like a more powerful version of a Sith assassin from TSL, more so than another Nihilus.

 

Oh, and there actually is one plot hole in TSL (that cut content can't explain, well, at least not to my knowledge anyway) that I can think of.

 

The Jedi Master’s didn’t realise that Atris didn’t go to Katarr. In other words, they originally thought that she was dead. The Jedi Masters went into hiding from the toilet flush sounding Sith Lord Darth Nihilus and co, and so I doubt they’d tell each other where they were going to hide, since they’re umm…trying to hide and all, and don’t want to be caught.

 

Okay, that’s all good, but umm…T3-M4 manages to find a list of where all the Jedi Masters are hiding from Atris’ archives. Okay umm…how does Atris know where all the Jedi Masters are?

 

Kreia admits that she didn’t even know that the Jedi Masters were alive after you kill of all the Jedi Masters, if you kill them off that is. Clearly Atris wasn't with the remaining Jedi Masters on the Council, since none of them knew that she was alive, so how did she find out where they were hiding?

 

Apart from this, TSL doesn't have any plot holes that cut content wouldn't have explained.

[Lord Spitfire]

Seriously, I think that KotOR1 is better than KotOR2:TSL.

 

TSL has better designing, but if you really want an epic storyline with authentic characters and immerssive gameplay, play KotOR1.

 

If you like mostly the design of the game, the philososphy, and the depth behind it, TSL is the game for you.

[SilentScope001]

Oh, and there actually is one plot hole in TSL (that cut content can't explain, well, at least not to my knowledge anyway) that I can think of.

 

The Jedi Master’s didn’t realise that Atris didn’t go to Katarr. In other words, they originally thought that she was dead. The Jedi Masters went into hiding from the toilet flush sounding Sith Lord Darth Nihilus and co, and so I doubt they’d tell each other where they were going to hide, since they’re umm…trying to hide and all, and don’t want to be caught.

 

Okay, that’s all good, but umm…T3-M4 manages to find a list of where all the Jedi Masters are hiding from Atris’ archives. Okay umm…how does Atris know where all the Jedi Masters are?

 

Kreia admits that she didn’t even know that the Jedi Masters were alive after you kill of all the Jedi Masters, if you kill them off that is. Clearly Atris wasn't with the remaining Jedi Masters on the Council, since none of them knew that she was alive, so how did she find out where they were hiding?

 

Apart from this, TSL doesn't have any plot holes that cut content wouldn't have explained.

 

Actually, we discussed this on the Obisidan boards. Here is the link.

[Melly]

TSL has better designing, but if you really want an epic storyline with authentic characters and immerssive gameplay, play KotOR1.

 

I mean no offense by this but, if you've played other BioWare games you'd see that the characters in KotOR aren't all that authentic. At least Carth and Bastila aren't. Carth reminds of me of Valen (and just for the record I like Valen better). And Bastila is a damn near carbon copy of Aribeth right down to the british accent and joining the enemy against the PC.

 

I prefer the Sith Lords and the reason being is that in almost every EU book of the Star Wars galaxy that I've read there's some big bad villian with a big bad super weapon and to see that annoying trend repeated in K1 really grates. And I continued to play the same character that I started out as. Having Revan forced on me kind of annoyed me. It ruined all the background information I had made up for her (my PC) before the Leviathan.

 

Well, that and Bao-Dur. Have I mentioned recently how much I love Bao-Dur?

[Jediphile]

That's still what it boils down to though! At basic level that's how it can be described.

 

Only if one deliberately chooses to ignore any and all obvious details of how this was achieved. You can do that, of course. But then you can also choose to not play the games, see the films, or read the comic books, if they interest you so little that you don't care about the details of what took place. Looking at the matter superficially does not make Nihilus anything like Exar Kun. In fact, it would be just as pointless as saying that Luke and exile are exactly the same, since they are both presented as the "last jedi" in each story. This was true for Luke, but not for the exile, and they have no similarities otherwise.

 

Except we never see Nihilus do that, we never see him use any powers beyond those of a regular dark force user. All we know for sure is that something drained the life on Kattar. Nothing beyond that.

 

Except the masters confirm it, we did see it in the "Unseen, Unheard" story in Star Wars Tales 24, and Kreia confirms Nihilus' powers both by her speech and in the flashback movie, where she is cast out.

 

Except we never see Nihilus' powers beyond the failed attempt and the other general force powers he uses during your confrontation. Kreia was much like Palpatine and Vergere, using The Architects criteria both Nihilus and Sion are similar to Malak and Vader, both tall, both sith, one's bald and scarred the other is all mysterious in black.

 

That's the same sort of argument you use to compare Exar Kun and Nihilus, though, if you ask me.

 

As Carth says, "Hmm. I guess that no Jedi ability, no matter how powerful, makes up for being completly surprised and outmatched."

 

Didn't quite work on Nihilus, though. At least, it never did for me. Though some have claimed otherwise, I've never been able to defeat him without first triggering the cutscene where Nihilus tries to drain the exile, and which spells ultimate doom for him.

 

Didn't outlander have humans who were captured and integrated into Tusken society, kind of like the Native Americans and the European Settlers. Didn't the comics also show an unmasked very unhuman looking Tusken in one issue. Kind of big difference between adopting humans into your clan and being the origin of the species in the GFFA.

 

Even if that is so, and that is by no means an admission, that still leaves us with the idea of the Sand People being human in that story a long time before KotOR. It also does not mean that Sand People are humans has any impact on the plot at all. Indeed, in KotOR it's more along the lines of "oh well... who cares anyway..."

 

Except that the idea could be used to explain this much covered subject once and for all, while on the other hand Kreia's ideas will probably never take off as it would reflect too badly on the force. Which is after all the centre of what makes Star Wars different from Star Trek or anyother scifi franchise.

 

1. If Kreia's philosophies were that dangerous to the Star Wars franchise, it would never have made it into the game. Everything that definitely takes place in the LSF version of evens in TSL is canon, and since Kreia's philosophies are the heart of the game regardless of gender or alignment, they are indeed canon. And the plot was approved by Lucasarts, possibly even by Lucas himself for all I know, so the decision to allow this interpretation of the force came with the Lucasarts of approval long ago. If not, it would never have been allowed in the game.

 

2. There are plenty of powerful individuals with strange, unseen powers in Star Trek. Q and Trelane would seem to be the most obvious, but a case could be made for any Betazoid or other psychic to fall into the same category. Star Wars is not sci-fi to me at all. Star Trek is sci-fi. Star Wars is space opera - the epic saga is far more central in Star Wars, and the plot is closer to Lord of the Rings than it will ever be to Star Trek IMHO. Basically Star Wars is Lord of the Rings with spaceships and futuristic weapons. I mean, (light)sabers, (jedi)knights and dark lords...

 

So? If they could of gotten her in it still could of have had a different approach. Or if the concept from the start had been slightly different they might never of needed her in there at all. If the game was commissioned as an official tie-in to the comics don't you think they would of a, kept a similar appearance graphically (it's only 50 years on but could be set 50 years before the prequels from the look of the costumes and ships etc) b, had tales of the jedi somewhere in the title or c, gotten the legal go ahead to use Vima?

 

a. Vima was an infant in 4000 BBY. We don't know how old, but she was no more than a few years old at the most. Her training by Ulic Qel-Droma takes place in 3986 BBY, so she must have been at least fourteen at the time. How old is Bastila? In her early 20s, I'd say? If so, then KotOR could have been set no later than ten years (and probably less) after "Redemption" around 3976 BBY. Clearly the timetable was changed when Vima could no longer appear as a main character. So I don't find that to be a compelling argument given what is known of the game's original inception.

 

b. It did. It stole the name of the given to the collection of the original five Tales of the Jedi comic books... and given to those long before anyone ever thought of the game, too.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tales_of_the_Jedi:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic

 

c. Clearly that was not going to happen, the complaintives already being mightily annoyed over the infraction of the Sunrider name, and Lucasarts was not going to risk a court battle over the matter.

 

I've already posted comparisons between TSL and ESB. What were you nitpicks, they didn't land on an asteroid in TSL but a space station. Yet wasn't the mining complex built into an asteroid? And in KotOR you don't exactly start with two droids and take the escape pods down to Tatooine now do you.

 

Actually, it was a mining complex built into the remains of a planet. And if you don't see a huge difference between a mining facility full of droids and workers trying to gather fuel and a seemingly dead asteroid, then I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree - Peragus is nothing like that "snail"-asteroid IMHO.

 

And while you don't start KotOR taking an escape pod down to Tatooine with two droids, you do start with a ship of the "good guys" being captured by the "evil empire" and the only hope fleeing down to the planet below in, yes, an escape pod. The number of occupants in that escape pod is also the same - Revan and Carth instead of C-3PO and R2-D2.

 

Usually it's only platform games or shooters than follow a formula so closely.

 

My experience with cRPGs has been otherwise. But people can make up their own minds on that.

 

If Visas is actually what she appears to be. We know force sight can be learned, and personalities and memories can be altered with the force.

 

So what are you saying? We didn't play as Revan in KotOR after all?

 

I never said I wasn't making basic comparisons, but neither did I tear down your as you say 'paper thin' comparisons. I've stated several times I'm not defending KotOR but trying to show you that TSL isn't the original masterpiece you think it is. But if it's alright for you to make paper thin accusations but it's not alright for me to do so then that's being hypocritical.

 

So you're basically saying that you are making paper-thin arguments yourself but that this is okay because you think other people do it too? Or did I misunderstand that?

 

What I fail to understand is why you're trying so hard to suggest that KotOR is original and TSL is not. Even the people who wrote KotOR seem to take it's similarity to the OT as a matter of pride, and I don't see that this is wrong either. KotOR seemed to be a genuine attempt to capture the spirit of the original movies. What's wrong with that? So it's very unoriginal, but so what? That's not necessarily a bad thing, nor was it meant to be.

 

TSL does try something else, however, and manages to so, however. Is it a masterpiece? Definitely not. The plot is excellent, but the implementation, well, "leaves something to be desired" would be a polite way of putting it, I think. Lots of things were done badly in TSL, and the plot was hurt by the cut content. Why does all your companions suddenly disappear into thin air with no explanation once you reach Malachor V, for example? Not good. But the underlying plot was sound, and the characters were excellent IMHO. Yet I still think KotOR was the better game, since it was more polished and, not least, finished before it was released.

 

There are a lot of differences. He became a sith to gain the power to save his wife from dying in child birth,

 

I disagree with that. Yes, I'm sure that's what Anakin tells himself, but it's a complete sophistry and self-delusion. The only way that argument holds water IMHO is if Anakin can genuinely believe that Padmé will still love him after he has killed small children. And knowing Padmé, that's quite a stretch to say the least... No, Anakin wanted to be more powerful, and he thought dictatorship was okay - just watch the scene when he and Padmé discuss politics in the grasslands of Naboo in Ep. II.

 

he was pulled to the dark side by someone who he didn't know was a force user.

 

So what? Evil is evil is evil. It doesn't matter if it was a force-user or not, since Anakin should be able to tell evil from good either way. Or is he somehow excused for falling to the dark side and killing children simply because he didn't know Palpatine was a sith? Besides, it can be argued that he did know, since Anakin did not make his final choice until after he learned Palpatine was a Sith Lord.

 

As Revan would say, "I am sorry I started you on this path. But you chose to continue down it." That statement applies just as much to Anakin as it does to Malak, and only underscores their similarities IMHO.

 

He is the personal representitive of the legally elected leader of the legitimate government, he was trying to put down an insurrection, he was only the apprentice and never the master, and at the end he's the one who saves the day and defeats the ultimate evil. Not at all like Malak.

 

Malak is not "the one who will bring balance to the force", no. But otherwise the similarities are striking. Also, it's clear from ROTS that Anakin meant to overthrow Palpatine and rule the galaxy as the reigning Sith Lord instead of his master... just as Malak did.

 

It's not exactly the same, where's the secret plans of the starforge carried in the droids memory,

 

That's Bastila's Battle Meditation - the only thing that threatens Malak's power, just as R2's plans threatens the Death Star's power. It's so dangerous that Malak orders the destruction of Taris just to eliminate the threat.

 

or attacking the starforge in a fighter,

 

KotOR is an RPG, not a flight sim. There was plenty of dogfighting cutscenes at the Starforge battle, though, which clearly played to the same mood.

 

rescuing Bastila from the starforge and heading off to the rebel base (not a garbage compactor in sight).

 

Instead Bastila is rescued from the Black Vulkar gang and the group then flees to the jedi enclave on Dantooine. But first Revan and company must go through the sewers of Taris...

 

Where's the starforge going around blowing up planets,[/Quote]

 

It does by extension, since it presumably created all those ships Malak used to destroy Taris with. In fact, that was not original at all. I mean, Vader and Tarkin destroy Alderaan - Malak and Karath destroy Taris. And as for using ships instead of the Death Star:

 

Han Solo: "The entire star fleet couldn't destroy an entire planet, it would take a thousand ships with more fire power than I've ever..."

 

Isn't that EXACTLY what we saw Malak and Karath do in KotOR?

 

where's there training on a swamp planet with yoda.

 

That's Jolee's hut on Kasshyyyk.

 

Of course, you could argue his a human and not... whatever species Yoda is. However, he is just as cranky towards Revan as Yoda is towards Luke, and he pretends just as much. And as for the physical differences...

 

Yoda: "Judge me by my size do you? Well, you should not. For my ally is the Force..."

 

Again, different on the surface, but very similar underneath.

 

Is Bastila your sister or not?

 

No, but then neither was she Luke's sister in Ep. IV and V. That was only retconned so by Lucas in ROTJ because he didn't want to do episodes VII-IX, yet had already put the "there is another" bit in ESB. Leia was made into Luke's sister only so that Lucas could close the saga without leaving gaping plot holes or obviously loose ends. Besides, Yoda's argument doesn't really make sense - when Obi-Wan says Luke is their last hope, Yoda says there's another. Well, what sense does that make when that "other" is the one Luke is running off to save?

 

Where's Bespin or having one of your friends incased in carbonite.

 

The showdown in the late part of "the middle", yes. The part where confront the bad guy and lose, so that you have an incentive to take "revenge" against him at the end. Obviously that's the Leviathan. The hero's friends are captured, and the hero must save them. He/she succeeds, but "loses" a friend in the attempt. Han is put into carbonite, while Bastila is captured by malak and seduced by the dark side. Same theme.

 

When do you meet ewoks and blow up the Starforge II?

 

You get gizka instead of ewoks (and let's be thankful for that). And you only get to blow up one big space station per movie/game/whatever - that's the rule! Besides, there was originally meant only to be one death star anyway. I mean, we see them building it and making good progress, too, in Ep. III. In the next film, it's finished - 19 years later! But then it's immediately destroyed, yet the empire is able to build a much larger death star to replace it in just four years... No, it's not finished, but it is fully functional, so who cares. Erm... what?

 

Where's does Malak redeem himself and destroy the emperor?

 

LS Revan can indeed make that offer at the end. I wonder how it would have been received by the fans if Malak had accepted and walked out of there alive

 

When does the player character get their hand cut off or become the last known Jedi?

 

What? Losing your entire memory is not enough? And the "last jedi" bit is saved for the sequel, where it's not true.

 

Sure there are similarities to some of the moments in the film, but it's not an exact copy and TSL has just as many moments.

 

Given the above, I would dare to disagree.

 

The sith nearly defeating the republic and ruling most of the known galaxy for a few years doesn't threaten Star Wars as we know it, it even opens up new storylines. But all life in the galaxy being devoured is a corner that is kind of hard to write yourself out of.

 

Nah, LS always wins in Star Wars.

[Gargoyle King]

I mean no offense by this but, if you've played other BioWare games you'd see that the characters in KotOR aren't all that authentic. At least Carth and Bastila aren't. Carth reminds of me of Valen (and just for the record I like Valen better). And Bastila is a damn near carbon copy of Aribeth right down to the british accent and joining the enemy against the PC.

 

I prefer the Sith Lords and the reason being is that in almost every EU book of the Star Wars galaxy that I've read there's some big bad villian with a big bad super weapon and to see that annoying trend repeated in K1 really grates.

 

Well, that and Bao-Dur. Have I mentioned recently how much I love Bao-Dur?

 

I agree, i feel that Bioware just recycled old ideas here. I like Kotor 2 and will like it even better with TSLRP. I prefer Atton more to Bao-Dur, i felt he had a mysterious darkside to him that was explored in the game but could have been explored with more detail (still, like i said before this might happen with TSLRP). For a Zabrak i thought Bao-Dur was quite the wimp in appearance, compared to a more infamous member of his bretheren (who can forget Darth Maul? One of the only interesting parts of TPM).

[JediMasterJambi]

TSL vs KOTOR as games. IF thats what the title is, then TSL has already lost.

 

Facts:

KOTOR won game of the year.

KOTOR gave a more solid storyline and backround for characters, both of which I can easily say LACKED MAJORLY in TSL.

KOTOR actually amazed the player (Me atleast) It made you say WOW, I can't belive that happened! TSL never did this for me. There wern't any huge big secrets that made me go "Hahahah! NOW WAY!!!"

When compared to KOTOR, TSL is a hive of FULL of bugs. A blind, deaf, mute could tell you that.

 

Opinon:

"TSL was much darker than KOTOR." 1. KOTOR was a dark game itself, on more than multiple occasions, if you do recall. 2. Darker dosn't mean better.

"If Obsidian wasn't rushed, they would have made a better game." Yha. And If I had only picked the right numbers for the lottery...

 

El Grande Finale:

Metacritic.com

KOTOR Metascore: 94

TSL Metascore: 86

 

TSL isn't a better game, you people are giving it a little to much credit here.

[Diego Varen]

TSL vs KOTOR as games. IF thats what the title is, then TSL has already lost.

 

Facts:

KOTOR won game of the year.

KOTOR gave a more solid storyline and backround for characters, both of which I can easily say LACKED MAJORLY in TSL.

KOTOR actually amazed the player (Me atleast) It made you say WOW, I can't belive that happened! TSL never did this for me. There wern't any huge big secrets that made me go "Hahahah! NOW WAY!!!"

When compared to KOTOR, TSL is a hive of FULL of bugs. A blind, deaf, mute could tell you that.

 

Opinon:

"TSL was much darker than KOTOR." 1. KOTOR was a dark game itself, on more than multiple occasions, if you do recall. 2. Darker dosn't mean better.

"If Obsidian wasn't rushed, they would have made a better game." Yha. And If I had only picked the right numbers for the lottery...

 

El Grande Finale:

Metacritic.com

KOTOR Metascore: 94

TSL Metascore: 86

 

TSL isn't a better game, you people are giving it a little to much credit here.

 

This might be true, but we don't all like KOTOR, because it won awards, etc. TSL is different and despite its flaws, it is a good game for some people, including me.

[Jae Onasi]

Just a reminder to everyone--it's OK if you like Kotor better than TSL, and TSL better than Kotor. Everyone has different tastes. I like chocolate ice cream, my son likes strawberry. While I can't believe my son actually does not like chocolate, it doesn't mean I'm a better person for liking chocolate and he's sorely mistaken. It just means we have different tastes. The two games are going to appeal to different people in different ways, and that's fine.

[EnIgmA_XX]

Just a reminder to everyone--it's OK if you like Kotor better than TSL, and TSL better than Kotor. Everyone has different tastes. I like chocolate ice cream, my son likes strawberry. While I can't believe my son actually does not like chocolate, it doesn't mean I'm a better person for liking chocolate and he's sorely mistaken. It just means we have different tastes. The two games are going to appeal to different people in different ways, and that's fine.

 

Yes, that's true. and i like vanilla

 

TSL vs KOTOR as games. IF thats what the title is, then TSL has already lost.

 

well, apparently not. if you've seen the thread, tsl also shows quite a few of its own high points.

 

Facts:

KOTOR won game of the year.

 

awards don't always mean that a game's better. tsl was a great game in its own right.

 

KOTOR gave a more solid storyline and backround for characters, both of which I can easily say LACKED MAJORLY in TSL.

 

no! not this argument again! tsl had an amazing storyline as well. even more than that, some would argue that KOTOR's storyline is just way too simple. almost everything exept for maybe 2 facts, were blatantly obvious throughout the game. tsl's story was slightly hard to follow, but it is just as great a story as KOTOR's! and as for the chars, they are deep, too. i think that the architect said this once so i'll say it once more: just because characters don't spoon feed you their life dosen't mean that they suck! i'll just end there because i know that some other people can help explain this much better than i can.

 

KOTOR actually amazed the player (Me atleast) It made you say WOW, I can't belive that happened! TSL never did this for me. There wern't any huge big secrets that made me go "Hahahah! NOW WAY!!!"

 

Kreia's intentions are just as "wow" as those moments, they just aren't told in a climactic fashion.

 

When compared to KOTOR, TSL is a hive of FULL of bugs. A blind, deaf, mute could tell you that.

 

yes, everyone agrees on that.

 

Opinon:

"TSL was much darker than KOTOR." 1. KOTOR was a dark game itself, on more than multiple occasions, if you do recall. 2. Darker dosn't mean better.

 

i'd disagree with point one, kotor was happy all the way through. i'd agree with point 2 though.

 

"If Obsidian wasn't rushed, they would have made a better game." Yha. And If I had only picked the right numbers for the lottery...

 

it's true, though. OE got very little time to work on tsl, and as a result, many awesome things were cut.

 

El Grande Finale:

Metacritic.com

KOTOR Metascore: 94

TSL Metascore: 86

 

TSL isn't a better game, you people are giving it a little to much credit here.

 

numbers don't make kotor better than tsl.

[Gargoyle King]

- Kotor for a worthwhile SW gaming experience.

 

- TSL for an incomplete buggy gaming experience with just a touch of "I can't believe i just wasted my time & hard-earned cash!"

 

numbers don't make Kotor better than tsl.

No but in that Poll they do!

I suppose your kinda right in this respect but certainly the facts make Kotor a better game than TSL - to elaborate a few;

 

(1). Worth the price you paid.

(2). Less bugs, LESS CUT CONTENT!

(3). Better exposition and conclusion.

(4). LESS CUT CONTENT!

(5). The plot twists were certainly more inventive and more 'shocking'.

(6). You probably know what goes here!

 

- The list can go on and on; a bit like a Never Ending Story!

[Jediphile]

IMHO:

 

KotOR was the better GAME, because it was finished, polished and relatively free of bugs.

 

TSL, however, had better and deeper plot and characters, and was hurt mostly by cut content and rushed deadlines.

[Gargoyle King]

rushed deadlines.

 

The very core problem with Kotor 2 i believe. I feel that Kotor 2 has a lot of potential and if Obsidian hadn't been pushed for a release by LucasArts the sad case of Kotor 2 could now be a very different story. Oh, and what does IMHO mean - haven't come across that before!

[Jediphile]

The very core problem with Kotor 2 i believe. I feel that Kotor 2 has a lot of potential and if Obsidian hadn't been pushed for a release by LucasArts the sad case of Kotor 2 could now be a very different story.

 

"I am Jack's complete sense of agreement..."

 

Oh, and what does IMHO mean - haven't come across that before!

 

"In my humble opinion"

[JediMasterJambi]

well, apparently not. if you've seen the thread, tsl also shows quite a few of its own high points.

 

I'm more than positive it does, but frankly the shear lengeth of some of this posts are a little...>< TOO LONG.

 

awards don't always mean that a game's better. tsl was a great game in its own right.

 

A given, however they are VERY SHINY And I personally love TSL, I just believe KOTOR is the better of the 2.

 

no! not this argument again! tsl had an amazing storyline as well. even more than that, some would argue that KOTOR's storyline is just way too simple. almost everything exept for maybe 2 facts, were blatantly obvious throughout the game. tsl's story was slightly hard to follow, but it is just as great a story as KOTOR's! and as for the chars, they are deep, too. i think that the architect said this once so i'll say it once more: just because characters don't spoon feed you their life dosen't mean that they suck! i'll just end there because i know that some other people can help explain this much better than i can.

 

> . < You most likely hear this argument so much because its a VERY valid point. > . < TSL had a good storyline. However, the majority of people LOVE SIMPLE STORYLINES. KOTORs storyline was SIMPLY beautiful. Way too simple for anyone to hate. TSL is affected by bugs, flaws, and "dark" holes in its storyline i'm afraid.

 

Kreia's intentions are just as "wow" as those moments, they just aren't told in a climactic fashion.

 

Thus, Obsidian didn't build enough climax before revealing secrets. Whether this was due to time restraints or not, it is a VAILD reason why KOTOR is a better game.

 

I'd disagree with point one, kotor was happy all the way through. i'd agree with point 2 though.

 

Eh...that would depend on your definition of the words "happy" and "dark."

 

-Mandalorians start a gigantic war, annihilating species on an unstoppable warpath. Then 2 rouge Jedi defeat them, nearly exterminating the Mandolorians, after which they dissapear. Only to return years later as Sith Lords, and continue on an unstoppable war-path, killing millions, blowing up planets, turning master against apprentice-

...AND I think i'll stop right there...Now I did say TSL IS DARKER then Kotor. However, for you to say KOTOR is all happiness, sunshine, and farts...well, thats just plain foolishness.

 

numbers don't make kotor better than tsl.

 

No, but they sure do help when your having a "This is better than That" conversation.

 

KOTOR was better planned out, it has a fuller-storyline, fuller-characters, less bugs, better surprises, and not to mention the numbers are on its side.

 

So far the only thing i've seen working for TSL is that its "Darker" and even possibly has an "Complex" storyline.

 

Edit:

IMHO:

 

KotOR was the better GAME, because it was finished, polished and relatively free of bugs.

 

TSL, however, had better and deeper plot and characters, and was hurt mostly by cut content and rushed deadlines.

 

Exactly. I wish that Lucas would have held his money grubbing, little, fat fingers for the game to finish. But alas, hes apprently just NOT rich enough.

[Melly]

No, but they sure do help when your having a "This is better than That" conversation.

 

Only when stating facts. And as far as I can see this thread is mostly about opinion.

 

Which I believe was the original question to begin with anyway: Which do you prefer? For me and several others it seems to be TSL or others it's KOTOR. Neither one is right, but neither is wrong either.

[Jediphile]

> . < You most likely hear this argument so much because its a VERY valid point.

 

No. More people saying that 2+2=5 or that Sherlock Holmes is a true historical figure does not make it so (and those are not specific examples).

 

> . < TSL had a good storyline. However, the majority of people LOVE SIMPLE STORYLINES. KOTORs storyline was SIMPLY beautiful. Way too simple for anyone to hate. TSL is affected by bugs, flaws, and "dark" holes in its storyline i'm afraid.

 

1. KotOR had simple story, yes. But there are those who tolerate it more than love it. I mean, just listen to Malak's laughter for crying out loud! How much more cheesy can you get?

 

2. TSL has no "dark holes" in the story. None. It all hangs together. It's told badly at times, yes, but that speaks to the implementation, not the plot. There are things left unfinished because of cut content, yes, but that again speaks to the implementation and not the plot. It is completely unfair to criticize TSL's plot for its poor implementation and occasionally not-so-good way of telling things.

 

Thus, Obsidian didn't build enough climax before revealing secrets. Whether this was due to time restraints or not, it is a VAILD reason why KOTOR is a better game.

 

No, it just tells us why some people - like you - prefer KotOR. That still doesn't make it more (or less) than an opinion.

 

-Mandalorians start a gigantic war, annihilating species on an unstoppable warpath. Then 2 rouge Jedi defeat them, nearly exterminating the Mandolorians, after which they dissapear. Only to return years later as Sith Lords, and continue on an unstoppable war-path, killing millions, blowing up planets, turning master against apprentice-

...AND I think i'll stop right there...Now I did say TSL IS DARKER then Kotor. However, for you to say KOTOR is all happiness, sunshine, and farts...well, thats just plain foolishness.

 

Not when compared to TSL's darker story. KotOR is mostly light with a few patches of patches of darkness to make the plot work. TSL is all darker shades of gray in various nuances.

 

No, but they sure do help when your having a "This is better than That" conversation.

 

Which IMHO are pointless arguments when comes to taste in, well, pretty much anything. There is no accounting for taste. Some people like Star Trek, some like Star Wars. No harm either way. Some people like KotOR, some like TSL. Same thing.

 

KOTOR was better planned out,

 

Yes... though only in its final implementation. TSL was originally planned just as well, it just wasn't executed that way in the final product.

 

it has a fuller-storyline,

 

Absolutely NOT!! TSL's plot is far more original and full than KotOR's can ever hope to be. Not even the devs (Bioware) seem to dispute the fact that KotOR is highly derivate of the original trilogy. Indeed, that happened completely on purpose.

 

fuller-characters,

 

Absolutely NOT!! What character in KotOR can even hope to be as "full" as Kreia?!? She's about the richest character ever in any CRPG, let alone Star Wars games.

 

less bugs,

 

No doubt there.

 

better surprises,

 

Such as? There is only one in KotOR, really, which Vrook spoils completely in a conversation you cannot avoid on Dantooine.

 

TSL doesn't always prepare its surprises well. For example, showing the three Sith lords in a movie doesn't exactly make Kreia's later loyalties much of a surprise. But the Exile's secret is certainly kept well.

 

and not to mention the numbers are on its side.

 

That still just comes down to personal preference. Anyone here could make a different list that favors TSL, should they wish to.

 

So far the only thing i've seen working for TSL is that its "Darker" and even possibly has an "Complex" storyline.

 

It is definitely more complex and dark. Revan's secret is about as "dark" as Tinkerbell's envy of Wendy next to TSL's secrets and darkness. I was actually scared as I approached Nihilus for the first time. It's such a crying shame that showdown wasn't more of challenge (meaning "just about impossible to survive" instead of "major letdown as the villain bites the dust almost before you even ignite the lightsaber")

[The Source]

When it comes to advocating which is better, I think we have to compaire both games to novels. RPGs (in my opinion) are all about stories, and their ability to keep a player interested. As the player character interacts with the game world, they are exposed to a variety of obsictles, people, mysteries, and environments.

 

'KotOR I' Has:

 

1. PC's Main Plot Quest - Find the StarMaps, Star Forge, and Kill Malek.

2. PC/NPC Involvement - Several Side Quests.

3. PC/NPCs that interact with the PC durring the course of the quests.

4. PC/NPCs that interact with each other while on the road.

5. Unrelated villans with a story of their own, which the PC can interact with.

6. One Major Villan.

7. PC/NPCs that create personal connections with the PC.

8. Jedi Training on Dantooine.

9. Sith Training on Korriban.

10. Choose a light or dark side path, which dictates the endgame result.

11. You can kill your PC/NPC.

12. Vast worlds that stretch forever.

13. NPCs with personal issues, which have independant storyarchs.

14. Several Minor Villans: Dark Jedi Masters.

15. Cinematic Engame (Clear and Exciting Ending.)

16. A massive amount of information about Sith and Jedi history.

17. Madalorian history is also covered.

18. Star Wars Style Music.

19. Game completed in 40 hours.

20. Ancient antiquity feeling that reminds people of the Medievil time period.

21. Ending has a finite resolution.

22. Climatic Revelation Endgame.

22. Climatic Revelation: You are Revan.

 

(There is just way more stuff to do in KotOR I.)

 

'KotOR II' Has:

 

1. PC's Main Plot Quest - Confront the Jedi Masters and Confront The Sith.

2. PC/NPC Involvement - Side Quests are almost non-existant.

3. PC/NPCs that slightly interact with the PC durring the course of the quests.

4. PC/NPCs that interact with each other mostly on the Ebon Hawke.

5. No unrelated villans with a story of their own, which the PC can interact with.

6. One Major Villan.

7. PC/NPCs do not create personal connections with PC.

8. Jedi / Sith Training on the Road.

9. Choose a light or dark side path, which dictates the endgame dialogue result.

10. You can not kill your PC/NPC. Unless you are Kreia

11. Claustrophobic worlds.

12. One possible NPC with a personal issue, which is not a independant storyarch. Handmaiden.

13. Two Minor Villans: Nhihlis and Sion.

14. Dialogue Ending (Boring and Anti-Climatic Ending.)

15. Most of the history covered in KotOR II was a repeate of KotOR I.

16. Game was not drentched with Sith and Jedi History.

17. Practically No Star Wars Style Music. Unless you earn a light or darkside point.

18. Game completed in 27 hours.

19. Ending gets lost in dialogue.

20. Anti-Climatic Revelation: You are an Echo.

 

Both stories revolve around Revan. The Exile was not in a necessary position, which he/she could have caused any harm to anyone. Would you rather be the general or the leader? It would have been nice if you were Revan's original Jedi Master, and you have come back to either join Revan or to kill Revan. Obsidian could have made a nice betrayal or redemption story out of KotOR II. Instead, Exile traveled the universe to find his place, and found out he was a useless echo of nothing. Grrr...

 

What drove me to 'KotOR I' was: It had an ancient antiquity feeling that reminds people of the Medievil time period.

 

What drove me to 'KotOR II' was that I expected the game to carry on the same feeling. It didn't.

 

KotOR II's ending should have been a confrontation between Revan and PC. Revan's story should have stopped, so we can enjoy something new in KotOR III. Now, we have to worry about the Revan story again, and it will no doubt have a large influence on KotOR III. Revan, Revan, Revan...

 

I can make a prediction on KotOR III. You will find out what happened to Revan. Regardless about what type of position you are in the gallaxy, KotOR II's story will be about Revan. Revan, Revan, Revan... Grrrr... Obsidian should have ended KotOR II with a confrontation between Revan and PC. The more time we experience between KotOR II and III, the more liklely no one would buy into another Revan story.

 

Yawn, Yawn, Yawn....

 

That is why 'KotOR I' was superior.

[Jediphile]

^^

 

That still just comes down to personal preference. Anyone here could make a different list that favors TSL, should they wish to.

 

The defense rests...

[Lantzen]

Think it's hard to decide which the better is, both is great in there own aspect. The story focus on diffrent things, i like the more darker tone in TSL, but i also like the setting in K1 with the Republic figthing a war they losing, and the aspect that you are Reven. And i didnt have so much diffrent game lenght, like it looks like some have, completed K1 on 32h on my first run through, K2 on around 28h. And it also feels like you affect the world more around you in K2, in K1 you can change the power balance on Kashyyk, in K2 there is Dantoinne, Telos and Onderon. And the NPC is great in both games, i dont think i can decide whos the best pilot is between Atton and Carth, both have good personality, and i think Kreia is great as a mentor in K2, but in K1 you have Jolee as a little mentor guy, even if he wont admit it. But HK is way funnier in K1

 

And there is many thing that make both games great IMO, but il most go with that K1 is the best, but not with much, and the thing that make me decide that is the plot holes you notice in K2, that aint there in K1. I dont care if people say it's because it's got rushed, and TSLRP will fix it, they still there in the orginal game

[TKA-001]

-Mandalorians start a gigantic war, annihilating species on an unstoppable warpath. Then 2 rouge Jedi defeat them, nearly exterminating the Mandolorians, after which they dissapear. Only to return years later as Sith Lords, and continue on an unstoppable war-path, killing millions, blowing up planets, turning master against apprentice-

...AND I think i'll stop right there...Now I did say TSL IS DARKER then Kotor. However, for you to say KOTOR is all happiness, sunshine, and farts...well, thats just plain foolishness

K1 has a fanboyish, ANH-feel. Even though a freaking planet is blown up in ANH (Alderaan), ESB is much darker. Same deal here with TSL and K1.

 

2. PC/NPC Involvement - Side Quests are almost non-existant.

To say that there are almost no sidequests in K2 is a load of BS.

 

3. PC/NPCs that slightly interact with the PC durring the course of the quests.

4. PC/NPCs that interact with each other mostly on the Ebon Hawke.

They certainly interact more than in K1, where the party members occasionally either

A) Whine at the PC with their [usually stupid] problems

or

B)Bicker with each other

 

6. One Major Villan.

There's at least TWO major villans, and three if you count Nihilus. But one might or might not count him, since he's not seen nearly as much as Sion and Traya (the other two major villans).

 

7. PC/NPCs do not create personal connections with PC.

Personal connections? I don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

 

8. Jedi / Sith Training on the Road.

So what?

 

9. Choose a light or dark side path, which dictates the endgame dialogue result.

Just because there isn't a huge celebration of Sith/Republic dudes over your victory followed by a "Zomg i'm uber eeeevil dark lord ending"/"Yay teh galaxy iz saved!" ending doesn't mean K2 isn't as good as the first one.

 

10. You can not kill your PC/NPC. Unless you are Kreia

How can you kill yourself in K1?? Why the freaking hell would you want to in either games???

 

11. Claustrophobic worlds.

You aren't giving any reasons. In K1, no matter what planet I was on, I always wanted to be somewhere else. And when I got to the somewhere else, I didn't want to be there anymore.

 

12. One possible NPC with a personal issue, which is not a independant storyarch. Handmaiden.

Atton and Mira have personal issues to resolve, so Handmaiden isn't the only one.

 

13. Two Minor Villans: Nhihlis and Sion.

See #6 above.

 

14. Dialogue Ending (Boring and Anti-Climatic Ending.)

You give no reasons why it is boring and anti-climatic. For further explanation, see my response to #9 above.

 

15. Most of the history covered in KotOR II was a repeate of KotOR I.

What's wrong with a sequel continuing the events of the first game?

 

16. Game was not drentched with Sith and Jedi History.

Does it need to be?

 

17. Practically No Star Wars Style Music. Unless you earn a light or darkside point.

To say that either games have Star Wars Style Music is an obvious lie. Every once in a while in K1, there's some music that sounds a bit similar to the movies.

 

At least the non-Star Wars music in K2 was better than that of K1.

 

18. Game completed in 27 hours.

That depends on how quickly you're trying to get to the end, as well as numerous other factors.

 

19. Ending gets lost in dialogue.

What's that supposed to mean?

 

Both stories revolve around Revan. The Exile was not in a necessary position, which he/she could have caused any harm to anyone. Would you rather be the general or the leader? It would have been nice if you were Revan's original Jedi Master, and you have come back to either join Revan or to kill Revan.

So that is your idea of a good TSL Story?? Seriously???

 

Obsidian could have made a nice betrayal or redemption story out of KotOR II. Instead, Exile traveled the universe to find his place, and found out he was a useless echo of nothing. Grrr...

There already is a nice betrayal story in TSL (the whole deal with Kreia).

 

I can make a prediction on KotOR III. You will find out what happened to Revan. Regardless about what type of position you are in the gallaxy, KotOR II's story will be about Revan. Revan, Revan, Revan... Grrrr... Obsidian should have ended KotOR II with a confrontation between Revan and PC. The more time we experience between KotOR II and III, the more liklely no one would buy into another Revan story.

 

Yawn, Yawn, Yawn....

What is wrong with it being about Revan? He's the one who started the whole conflict of K1 in the first place.

 

That is why 'KotOR I' was superior.

Because of your long post ~snipped~? I don't think so.

 

Keep it civil, please. You can disagree without the flaming. --Jae

[EnIgmA_XX]

I agree with TKA-001 on all points. seriously MacCorp, the first time i read your post i was like O_o. "Side Quests are almost non-existant." WHAT!?