Extremely religious schools: what to do about them

[Nancy Allen``]

On the more extreme aspects of religion, I would say these things would actually drive people away rather than make them better at serving their God.

[SilentScope001]

Brainwashing:

"Indoctrination that forces people to abandon their beliefs in favor of another set of beliefs. Usually associated with military and political interrogation and religious conversion, brainwashing attempts, through prolonged stress, to break down an individual's physical and mental defenses. Brainwashing techniques range from vocal persuasion and threats to punishment, physical deprivation, mind-altering drugs, and severe physical torture."

 

Alright. The Catholic Church says, "Condoms are evil." Where's the Inquisition? Where's the tortue devicies? Where are the death camps? Where is the threat to physical punishment, physical deprivation, mind-altering drugs, and servere physical tortue?

 

Fact is, according to your definition, the Catholic Church does not engage in brainwashing at all. They only speak their message and let people say Yea, or Nay. And the Catholic Church happens to NOT be affilated with the Kool-Aid Drinkers, so I suppose that analogy falls flat.

 

Schools, parents, and people who throw children into a religion are brainwashing. Telling a child they will go to hell if they sin and burn for what they have done can go under vocal persuasion and threats to punishment. You are telling a child exactly what to believe in life fully and completely as far a spiritually goes and not giving them an option to grow up and form beliefs of their own. Children's brain activity is highly active and they absorb things that are said like sponges, so how is throwing them into a highly religious school when they are young not a form of indoctrination?

 

And if you don't trust kids to think for themselves, then why should we throw kids anywhere else? If we throw them to a secular school, they'll learn secular values, and end up being secular brainwashed idiots, according to your same view. Why don't we blame secular schools for brainwashing? Don't they go and say that you must believe in a liberal government, otherwise if you disagree with it, you'll pave the way to the "State of Nature", of total government anarchy...or the way to a dictatorship (I heard both pieces of nonsene in school, and I know them for what they are, indoctrination)? That sounds like mental tortue to me!

 

Frankly, the parents have the right to tell kids what they believe they want their child to be. But if you believe in free will, then trust the kids' ability to choose. Because they will choose. And if you don't believe in free will, then no matter what happens, I'll be "brainwashing". Why not brainwash in my creed rather than your creed?

 

People should have that right, but that isn't the point I'm trying to make. You can believe whatever you want, but when your beliefs start harming other people and things thats when I think someone should step in.

 

It is one thing to say "eating pork is against God, so please respect my decision not to eat it" and quite another to say "Condoms are wrong, so I'm going to screw my girlfriend and possibly give her an STD or get her pregnant."

 

"Condoms are wrong, so I'm going to screw my girlfriend and-"

 

Catholic Priest: "Hey, screwing your girlfriend is also wrong."

 

"Oh. Well, then, I'm not going to screw my girlfriend."

 

Either that, or he does screw his girlfriend, and broke the law twice. And how is that first person going to get AIDS anyway? Through unapproved sex, without using a condom?

 

And, if you trust in a God, then God is likely to frown at the person who does not use a condom and therefore passes on AIDS, because not only has he engaged in an illegal activity, he also has murdered said girlfriend. Therefore, that man is probraly going to get doubly punished.

 

The man may have different religious views, but the woman wants him to wear a condom. Who is right then? If the man wears it, then he is aparently going against his religion yet no harm is done.

 

But why are you ignoring the fact that they are going against the OTHER parts of Catholic religion? Why should one pick and choose? Both he and his girlfriend are already harming the religion in the first place.

 

And if the man refuses, the woman just leaves. Either that, or the woman decides to take the risk, maybe because she is getting paid for the extramartial relations, or maybe because she really doesn't care. Or she could get raped. But in any cases of breaking the law of God, God is supposed to come in and smite all those concerned. So, I'm suprised you seem to neglect that, while condemning some beliefs, you also forget about the belief in God, considered the core belief in religion.

 

People should have that right, but that isn't the point I'm trying to make. You can believe whatever you want, but when your beliefs start harming other people and things thats when I think someone should step in.

 

Define "harm".

 

And as soon as you do that, you will be likely to see people coming in using that "harm" justification to justify any sort of intervention they so desire. Religious people will use that justification to say that atheists are harming childern, therefore, we must do something to stop them. Or some other nonsense.

 

No, I am opposed to censorship in all forms. Murder is prohibited because it is against the law. But if it is not against the law, then you should speak your mind and say what you desire, without religious and atheistic people breathing down your back.

 

Your arguement is flawed. Age is natural in all life. Disease is something that happens to only a few of the vast majority. Diseases are part of nature, but they are not naturally part of the life cycle. They can be worded the same, but scientifically they are different.

 

Age is not part of the natural lifecycle. People once died at the age of 40, and now, they die at the age of 80. Are you telling me that the lifecycle extended naturally? No, they extended because of the improvement of health care, because of new technologies, showcasing that age can easily be extended, and what was once considered the ending point of the human race is now just the middle-point. You can modify that age-cycle, usually to expand it, so if you can modify that life-cycle, it is akin to treating Age.

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But, as I see it, it seems we reached an impassee. TA, you are arguing that condoms are right because of practical effects, I'm saying it doesn't matter because (1) you'll die, and then after that, religion takes over and (2) people are violating the religion anyway.

 

Since it seems we'll likely to repeat our arguments over and over, I'm pulling out of the discussion...but one last thing:

===

On the more extreme aspects of religion, I would say these things would actually drive people away rather than make them better at serving their God.

 

Then you could just form your own religion instead. Hate the dreaded Catholic Church with its prohibiation on Condoms? Then create the Catholic Church (With Condoms!). You worship the Catholic Church, and at the same time, allow for condoms. There you go. Besides, you believe that you are right, therefore, since you are right, God must like you, therefore, you create this brand new religion, and God will send you straight to Heaven after you die.

 

People do it all the time, creating their own religions. They may consider themselves part of the same religion, but with different beliefs, but I usually consider themselves having spilt. It still essenatily the same thing.

[Nancy Allen``]

Yeah, I'll go create my own religion. With Jedi. And Twi'leks. In fact forget the religion.

[True_Avery]

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But, as I see it, it seems we reached an impassee. TA, you are arguing that condoms are right because of practical effects, I'm saying it doesn't matter because (1) you'll die, and then after that, religion takes over and (2) people are violating the religion anyway.

 

Since it seems we'll likely to repeat our arguments over and over, I'm pulling out of the discussion...but one last thing:

===

Then you could just form your own religion instead. Hate the dreaded Catholic Church with its prohibiation on Condoms? Then create the Catholic Church (With Condoms!). You worship the Catholic Church, and at the same time, allow for condoms. There you go. Besides, you believe that you are right, therefore, since you are right, God must like you, therefore, you create this brand new religion, and God will send you straight to Heaven after you die.

 

People do it all the time, creating their own religions. They may consider themselves part of the same religion, but with different beliefs, but I usually consider themselves having spilt. It still essenatily the same thing.

I agree, this can't go anywhere from here. But, I would like to point out that I was not aiming my argument at the catholic church in anyway at all (I personally think the catholic church arguement in this thread is silly) and people go against the core beliefs of their religion all the time without a second thought. I know catholics that got pregnant during high school, so in that respect your arguement falls just as flat as mine does. To be honest, not a single person has the same religion as another person. It isn't possible because of individuality, as everybody thinks slightly different than another. You give me 100 christians, and I'll give you 100 different religions. An we have no chance of agreeing on your death arguement. So yeah, it can't really go much farther than this but thanks for the debate anyway ^^

 

I think it kind of fell apart when you thought I was aiming this at the catholics.

 

Yeah, I'll go create my own religion. With Jedi. And Twi'leks. In fact forget the religion

What are you talking about?

[Ray Jones]

As a parent, I have a right and responsibility to raise my child the way I think they should be raised, including issues of religion. I want zero state influence on that.

So, as a parent, everyone has the right and responsibility to raise their children the way they think they should be risen, including issues of religion? The state influence put aside, I would not second that. Because it would mean if parents think their child should learn how to kill people, it's their right and responsibility to do so. I think, parents have the responsibility to prepare their children for the future life the best they can, to give them a home and a family.

[Totenkopf]

So, as a parent, everyone has the right and responsibility to raise their children the way they think they should be risen, including issues of religion? The state influence put aside, I would not second that. Because it would mean if parents think their child should learn how to kill people, it's their right and responsibility to do so. I think, parents have the responsibility to prepare their children for the future life the best they can, to give them a home and a family.

 

But by whose definition of "what's best"?

[SilentScope001]

What are you talking about?

 

If I understand correctly, Nancy Allen ''' is attempting to say that if you can modify the tenants of the religion in question, then why bother sticking with it?

 

A reply would likely be: "I don't want to leave my religion, I still believe in God, yadda, yadda, all I disagree with is some incredibly minor issue, so I just change it, and everything will be fine, so there."

 

That, or she's referring to the Jedi religion.

[GarfieldJL]

Enough about the condom stuff, if you have sex with someone you run the risk of catching an STD, it doesn't matter if you have a condom or not. So to be blunt the Vatican has a valid point, wait till you're married till you have sexual relations is the best way to avoid getting an STD.

 

I'm also aware about the Blood Transfusion situation which is how Ryan White contracted the disease. That situation was one that could have been avoided that happened due to negligence, it was also a rare occurance.

 

Getting back to topic, there is a fine line between a religious school, and cult indoctrination. Seriously, the reason why I want an extremely close eye on Muslim schools is because the people that are conducting terrorist attacks are Muslims. If it were Catholics, Hindus, or any other religion where terrorist attacks on the US were coming from on a regular basis I would want those religious schools closely watched.

 

To be blunt, the public education system needs a lot of work, part of it can be blamed on Teacher Unions, part of it is the environment the kids live in, etc. Government's answer in the past has just been to throw more money at it when the situation is due to other factors. That's why a lot of people have put their children in private schools, I realize the public schools aren't bad everywhere, however you get the point.

 

I had a teacher in college that didn't know where my state or any other state west of Pennsylvania (sorry if I mispelled it but I'm rather tired) was until she moved here. She attended Public School in New Jersey and they didn't have any states west of Pennsylvania on the map.

 

Fact is one could argue parenting is a form of indoctrination by some people's definitions.

 

This topic really should be more tightly defined. Seriously, I've have two cousins that have gone through Catholic School and they've turned out just fine.

[Nancy Allen``]

Few people wouldn't want to be a Jedi, the poll I ran on the topic proves as much. And few don't like a kick ass Twi'lek, it's even brought up in Betrayal. Imagine if there really was such a religion.

 

Actually it's a line from Futurama, you know HK was based on one of the characters there?

 

Seriously, how religion is interpreted varies greatly from religion to religion of course, but also from religious sect to religious sect (Roman Catholics and Prodestents are both Christian) and even from church to church. One may be very traditional, down to Earth, while another will have rock music and have the preacher doing their best Steve Martin\Leap of Faith impersonation (no I'm not saying they're con artists but they channel the enthusiatic spirit shown in the film, as elsewhere). Or Sister Act, nuns and Whoopi Goldberg, both follow the same message but interpret it in diffirent ways. Anyway, some people would look at a passage, something like 'those who do not follow God will surely be put to death', and see it as they will not be with God when they die. Some however will look at it and think that people who do not follow God must die. Now that's an extreme example but an example of how religion can be interpreted.

[Corinthian]

The current system is the best we have thought of. But if you have a better solution, please, go ahead. Make my day.

[Ray Jones]

But by whose definition of "what's best"?

By the simple definition of "best". Means: do the job as good as possible.

[Totenkopf]

Problem is you're dealing with a very subjective concept. What constitutes "good"? By whose standard do we define what is good and bad, and in what specific areas? Remember, someone will have to decide when parents fail to achieve that standard. So, what will be the measuring stick?

[Darth InSidious]

@Nancy: I suspect most people wouldn't want to wield the Force, carry a lightsabre and have Grand Adventures, but few would want an austerely simple life of meditation, reflection and selfless action, to grind down the self and to act out of pure compassion for others. Sounds nice in some ways, but it's a harsh way of life.

[Corinthian]

Which is why being a non-Jedi is better. Especially when you can be a Bindo-style one: Just like everybody else, except with a lightsaber and The Force.

[Nancy Allen``]

We actually discussed this in the Jedi thread. You'd think going to stop butchers would be the right thing to do, right? Wrong, doing that leads to the dark side. But people would look at all the cool Jedi things they do and go for it. And Revan, Bastila, Exile, Brianna, Visas, Mira, Aayla, Mara, ect ect for the guys, and...errr...Revan, Atton, Mical, Anakin, Luke, ect for the girls would only make it more enticing.

[Jae Onasi]

OK, this total off-topicness has gone on far enough. What the heck do Jedi have to do with religious schools?