Kotor2-TSL: Better and more likeable the more you play it?

[Knight Of Honor]

The first time i played TSL i was really disappointed, i guess its because of my great expectations for the game. After my experience with the first game which was amazing, i dont think any sequal could have been good enough to satisfy my expecttions.

 

But after three or four times playing through the game this has changed, i enjoy it alot more, its like i just had to adjust myself to the game.

 

I know all the problems with the game like everyone else, but in any case i am now ready to enjoy it for the first time.

 

Anyone else feel this way?

[adamqd]

I was much like you in that, with High expectations I didn't really enjoy it as much as I'd hoped, but its the story and style which I dislike, the tried and tested game play with obsidian added elements were great, The Overly Dark style and the (from fairly crap, to completely annoying) Characters dampened it for me though. Don't get me wrong, it's no way a bad game, just not in the same league as it's predecessor IMO...

 

 

plus, I hate the "True Sith" idea more than Jar Jar (That is if these true Sith are anything other than the Sith of Marka Ragnos)

 

[Inyri]

Spoiler: Agreed.

 

I've not been able to bring myself to play TSL a second time. I had enough interest to play it through once, because I didn't know how it ended, but the more I play the less interest I have in it... so I guess I'm kind of the opposite. I thought the more I played it the suckier I realized it was.

[TKA-001]

I imagine that nothing ever has or ever will please you in any way, Adam, if your last statement is serious.

 

Personally, I was disappointed by K1 (I played TSL first). Each of the locations managed to frustrate me in a different way, no matter how I approached the situation. It felt like more of a chore than TSL did. And I still preferred TSL's morally ambiguous cast & storyline far more than the cookie-cutter black and white style of K1.

[Hawkstrong16]

I agree with Inyri. Although unlike Inyri I have played K2 a few times, and its fun enough to play but...............The story still sucks! They shouldn't have released it so soon, it needed work.

K1 was a much better game.

 

And what I really hated was the influence system, I never once unlocked everybody's rewards, even with the influence guide sitting right next to me I always missed one or two opportunity's and that always screwed me up

[JoeDoe 2.0]

Yeah, it's good (I've played it like 14 times already) when you try out all the different "career" variants, but after a while, it got a little boring for me. I got it for the original xbox, but I bet the PC version is more fun (with all the mods out there)

[Ztalker]

Absolutely true...

 

I first rushed through the game with two silver sabers, playing it like a random action game. After a few playthroughs I, like the others sais, started playing it more like a Star Wars game (discover, roleplay, etc). It became far more enjoyable then

[Rev7]

I imagine that nothing ever has or ever will please you in any way, Adam, if your last statement is serious.

 

Personally, I was disappointed by K1 (I played TSL first). Each of the locations managed to frustrate me in a different way, no matter how I approached the situation. It felt like more of a chore than TSL did. And I still preferred TSL's morally ambiguous cast & storyline far more than the cookie-cutter black and white style of K1.

I too played TSL first. I thought that it was a great game. I thought that it was a little bland in several areas, but overall it was a pretty good game. Okay plot. Maybe 5 or 6 months later I bought KotOR 1. I was always wondering about who this Revan person was. The revelation was really exciting for me! Yeah, TSL was better in several ways, but I liked KotOR 1's plot a little bit more.

 

Back on topic though - - I am currently re-playing TSL, and it always seems like I like the game better every time that I play it. I know what to do in the game, but I tend to switch things around. I become a different class, I focus on different skills, and choose different feats. I really listen. I have played KotOR 1 an KotOR 2:TSL probably combined, 30 times. If not more...although the game (as well as any other game) could have been better.

[JCarter426]

I can't play K1 anymore. I've tried, more than once, but about halfway through Taris I give up. Or, if I actually make it past Taris and Dantooine, and Kashyyyk and Tatooine, Manaan kills it for me.

 

K2, on the other hand, I never have trouble finishing. Well, that's not true; I usually quit after Dantooine, because the ending makes me cry "DAMN YOU, LUCASARTS!" and the neighbors don't like that very much.

 

I don't know what it is, really. I guess it's because every game of K1 plays out exactly the same. Even if you're DS it's the same up until Lehon. But with K2, there are so many variables that it's almost impossible to play the same game more than once, unless you're actually trying to.

 

For one thing, you can set Revan to be male or female, light or dark. Now, I think this was a really bad idea (if they hadn't focused on doing this, we might have gotten a complete game); however, it does make things interesting.

 

There's also the matter of the Exile's gender; while this was in K1 as well, it didn't really change anything other than which romance option you get. In K2, you get a different party member, as well as different dialogue from Atton throughout the game, and with the other party members from time to time (for instance, Kreia's remark about the symbolism of a lightsaber).

 

And unlike K1, in K2 you get a completely different game depending on your alignment. Not only that, but your choices actually affect the planets you visit. The most K1 came to this was Chuundar vs Freyyr on Kashyyyk--which you don't see for the rest of the game--and the kolto harvester on Manaan--which, if you pick the DS option, you don't see for the rest of the game, and if you pick the LS option, nothing special happens.

 

Finally, there's the whole influence system, which, flawed as it may be, brings another level to the complexity of the game, especially with the Hawk cutscenes that Obsidian introduced (probably the best thing they did). Also, each party member has one special ability that makes it worth letting them off of the ship every so often.

 

Oh, and then there's Kreia.

 

I could go on, but I think I've said enough.

[Knight Of Honor]

I know the game is flawed, maybe a little to much, but every game has its light & dark sides, dont they?

 

Another thing for me was that i love the Kotor game, and storyline so much that i want to see it finished. So when, or if Kotor3 comes out i want to look at Kotor as a complete trilogy. So i realised that if i dont accept TSL as good enough, its like the story will be incomplete for me when the third one arrives,

so i wanted to find a way to make it work for me, and i think i have succeded now.

 

But i agree with you people. Please LucasArts, the next time you want to release a game, please make sure its finished, think about all the people who buy your games, not the MONEY. How do they even sleep at night?

[patient_zero]

At first I didn't like how they handled Revan.

"I saved the bloody Republic! How can all the Jedi be dead? That doesn't make any sense!"

 

Once I decided to try and enjoy it anyway, I got a little annoyed at how the companion dialogues/influence was handled. I liked talking to them as I went along, like in K1, as even though I know it was star map dependant or some such it felt more natural than "must grind influence, make everyone into a Jedi!"

 

Though I really liked the improved crafting system, new feats, higher cap, and all the mechanics, I just couldn't bring myself to like the story or the characters as much as the K1 ones (Even the ones I did like got screwed over, what with Atton's non-romance and everyone riding off into the sunset at the end).

 

I don't dislike it enough to chuck out the idea of playing it, but for me playing it more is just more likely to make me see the holes in it and mock them.

[Corinthian]

Moving this from another thread...

 

HERE'S WHAT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

 

"Please, Mr. Jedi, can I have a credit?"

 

"I'm sorry, but I really don't have any to spare." Keep walking and don't make eye contact.

 

Devon, I am EXTREMELY fond of Torment. But Avellone's abilities have fallen off a bit. And, sorry, but no matter how good MOTB is...well, there are better ways to handle a situation than with an apparent Death Ending, without so much as an After the Credits scene to show that the protagonists survived. No, you're just presumed dead. That's it. Now, what they could have done is set it up as a cliffhanger. Instead of having it be easily assumed that the characters all get squished under a hundred tons of rock, have a lead-in to Mask of the Betrayer, instead of just "Oh, surprise, you actually survived!"

 

Further, when no matter what your action is results in you getting chewed out BY THE SAME CHARACTER, there's something screwed up about the game. Now, I'm all for a good dose of moral ambiguity, Star Wars needs it, but having it be that, no matter what your actions down there, one beggar kills another REEKS of the criminally retarded, while you get lectured about the Way of the Closed Fist, well, it starts to wear thin.

 

Then there was the bloody wretched presentation of the plotline, not even a general outline of what had happened in your character's journal, like what Mass Effect did, no, instead they throw you out there and the PLAYER is more clueless than the Protagonist. That should NEVER happen. The Player should always be as well informed, or better informed, than the Protagonist. Hell, we even got to see what the Bad Guys were doing sometimes and that STILL didn't get us ahead. People would talk about the Mandalorian Wars to the Exile, and I'd be catching up, just trying to figure out what the truffing Hell he was doing during that time.

 

Now, if you want to have the story presented through a character who is not the pivoting point's eyes, FINE, but let us play that character! But EVERY CHARACTER in the party knew more than the Player did, which is so mind-bogglingly frustrating it makes me want to choke babies. Make a character's backstory important from the start? Fine. But let us get at least an outline of what that bloody history is before you start doing the story, or people, like me, will get preoccupied piecing together what the hell happened in the Mandalorian Wars that they're not really able to give their full attention to the actual story in front of them.

 

Not to mention that most of the characters were bland. Atton? Carth, but with a nastier backstory. I hated Carth anyway, but what's new about that? I always played the male, so I didn't get the salacious romance. Kreia? She was the only interesting character, really. Too bad I hated her guts and wanted to space her, forever wondering why Exile was obligated to keep her around, given that she's a fairly obvious psychotic and already admitted to being an allegedly former Sith. Then we go through the delightful roster of Handmaiden, the Generic Tough Girl who has all the emotions of a thimble and inexplicably falls in love with your character, Bao-Dur, who might have been the most compelling in the world if he ever opened his bloody mouth and talked. You know, when I got him, I was ECSTATIC! One of Exile's war buddies! Now I can figure out what was going on during the Mandalorian Wars that's not readily apparent! Oh, wait, Bao-Dur never talks. Visas, another Emotionless Girl, although that may have more to do with her rather disturbing subservience and less to do with actually being emotionless. Leastways, she was more palatable than Handmaiden. Mira, a less emotionless but still pretty generic Tough Girl. I actually liked her better than most in the party, though. Never saw Disciple, so I can't really pass judgment on him. Hanharr was an interesting character, if only because he was a Wookiee who wasn't noble as the sun is bright, which is an admittedly refreshing change. Mandalore and HK-47 I liked, and T3 is hard to say anything about since he never says anything comprehensible, but at least he DOES talk. But they didn't make any of those three, so it doesn't matter.

 

So, of the eleven characters, I would like to space Atton, Kreia, Handmaiden, and Visas. I'd lock Mira, T3, Bao-Dur, and Hanharr in the Cargo Hold, and then me, Canderous, and HK-47 would go gallivanting across the galaxy together.

 

Unfortunately, much like Mass Effect, this game doesn't allow you to fling unwanted party members out the airlock and then perforate their decompressed bodies with laser cannons until they are atomized. UNLIKE Mass Effect, however, this game actually makes me want to do that to most of the characters, and not just Kaidan.

 

spoiler:

Besides, it was actually possible to get rid of Kaidan.

 

 

 

The story of TSL is not the bad part. The story is quite respectable, in fact. Not Baldur's Gate, Fallout, or Planescape, but good. However, it's crippled in it's presentation, by the sharply declining lack of choices (SORRY, BUT BEING OBLIGATED TO SIT THROUGH A LECTURE BECAUSE A BEGGAR ASKS ME FOR CREDITS IS BAD GAME DESIGN), even in a series where, hey, your choices don't matter that much in gameplay, is frustrating as hell. The presentation was mediocre, and Malachor V was like getting teeth pulled.

 

Then there are the villains. You have Sion, who reinforces the incredibly irritating stereotype that Ugly is Evil and has all the character of a rodent that had been lobotomized, followed by spending twelve rounds in the ring with Muhammad Ali (During Ali's good days, I mean.). And then there's Nihilus, and his name is unusually apt - Because he's got NOTHING for a character! Get it? (Raucous laughter.) I mean, he doesn't even talk. Except, the thing is, he doesn't do us the courtesy of blissful silence, instead, he does what can only be described as Wailing, like the morons in your class collaborating to climb into the old church and play the organs at full blast at 2:30 in the morning. Okay, not that bad, but the point is, his character had all the CHARACTER of an ape that had been beaten over the head with a shovel and then fed to a shark. None.

 

Of course, those are just Henchmen, although you'd think that the Villain that takes DARTH VADER'S place on the art that imitates A New Hope's poster would at least have some memorable lines. But I don't think we have the font for musical notes here, so he hasn't been quoted anywhere I've seen.

 

I will say this about Nihilus, he represents a trend. I'm sure many of us EU fans will remember the days before the Yuuzhan Vong, when Star Wars books mostly centered around the Empire building some brand new Superweapon, or even OTHER bad guys, like Durga the Hutt, building a Superweapon. See also: The Jedi Academy Trilogy for the Sun Crusher (Geez, they worked hard on that), and Darksaber, for the Darksaber Failed Planet Killing Device Thingy that is basically a Space Lightsaber. Well, Nihilus represents the other train of thought, represented in a line from Nihilus' Poster-Art-Sake.

 

Quote:

Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

 

 

Nihilus set out to PROVE that, by showing that the Force COULD destroy planets. Yay! Now instead of Technological Superweapons, we've got Biological Superweapons. I only wish I could say they were the Star Wars equivalent of Smallpox. That, at least, might be somewhat interesting instead of the Guy Who Can Only Be Killed By One Man Because He's Just Too Powerful. (Gag)

 

Sion was a delightful orgy of destruction. Now, I can take a bit of ridiculousness for the sake of gameplay and a good plot. Beating Malak with a lightsaber was one thing, you could at least pretend he was just getting tired and draining the Jedi to replenish his stamina. But Sion, you KNEW you were inflicting wounds on him, but he made it readily apparent that it didn't matter jack squat if you carved his bloody head off and fed it to him (Don't ask how that's possible. You need to be very limber.), he'd just grow a new one! Hell, the severed head might even grow a new Sion! So finally, after beating on him for half an hour with a WEAPON THAT CARVES ARMS OFF AS EASY AS IT SLICES ROASTS (See also, Duel under Cloud City, Duel on the Death Star II, Mos Eisley Cantina Incident, Duel in Naboo Palace, Duel on Geonosis, Duel on the Invisible Hand.) So unless Sion has Cortosis-Plated Bones, which actually wouldn't surprise me, he already has the whole "I've taken tissue damage that would kill a normal man, and I feel fine" thing going, but I don't really see Sion as being played by Hugh Jackman.

 

Last of all, there's Traya, and she continues the subtle trend with even more ridiculous Force-Wizardry. You know, one thing I always liked about the Force is that direct manipulations tend to be fairly small scale, with even the Sith and Dark Jedi mostly using it for knowledge. Insight and precognition and stuff. Then you throw these three in there and they screw everything up!

 

Traya has the ability to make three other lightsabers FLY AND ATTACK YOU while maintaining the composure to wield her own. Hey, Traya, why didn't you exhibit any of these powers when you were with me? I really could have used some of this when we were running from Sion on Peragus! At least this one doesn't REALLY break verisimilitude, unlike the previous two examples - wielding a lightsaber by the Force had been done by Leia Organa Solo in the Thrawn Trilogy, before she had anything more than the most rudimentary training. But then again, she just made it hover in front of her, didn't duel with a Noghri Commando.

 

Anyway, she was a character that did a Face Heel Turn so fast I think she might have kicked herself in the mouth. Randomly walks in and BLOWS THREE JEDI MASTERS to Hell, then somehow warps to Malachor V (I sure as hell didn't give her the Ebon Hawk, although that's rumored to have been part of the plans originally) and goes on her epic quest to destroy the Force.

 

WHOA.

 

Now, I didn't see that coming. Star Wars always played on the Grand Scale, but we just escalated. We went from "A threat to Galactic Peace and Prosperity..." to..."I WILL DESTROY THE WORLD. FEAR MY GENERIC MOTIVES!" Okay, her motives weren't that generic, and actually kind of made sense, except for the minor flaw that the Force and Life tend to be rather inextricably linked. Sort of like The Master wanting to subjugate all Humans, but forgetting that his Super Mutants couldn't breed, except you could at least call attention to that if you were aware of it and it influenced the plot.-

 

Above all else, though, I'd like to point this out: THERE WAS NO REASON TO MAKE KNIGHTS OF THE OLD REPUBLIC II. The story of Malak, Revan, and the Star Forge was complete. Chucking in this whole True Sith thing and how Revan turned to the Dark Side because the Galaxy needed a huge War Machine to survive just makes him more of a Mary-Sue than he already is. He was already Grand Admiral Thrawn, Mace Windu, Lando Calrissian and Darth Vader rolled into one, now they've made him, in truth, Always A Good Guy. So instead of the story of KotoR being of "Revan, the Prodigal Knight" it's of "Revan, Biggest Mary-Sue in Star Wars since Jacen Solo."

 

Anyway, TSL was fun the first time. Every subsequent time has gotten more and more annoying because of how much they basically slapped K1 in the face and flushed it, doing their best to ignore established continuity while still keeping Revan's name and old characters popping up every so often.

[JoeDoe 2.0]

^Holy crap thats a big post. I've enjoyed playing KOTOR the most, TSL was good but I can't take too much Kreia

[Alexander the Great]

Moving this from another thread...

 

HERE'S WHAT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

 

[blah blah blah...]

 

I... I don't know what you're talking about...

 

Some parts get more and more boring the more you play it. But others manage to retain their coolness for a few playthroughs. I've played the first KotOr probably five times, and Korriban is just now getting dull. A little.

 

I hated Tatooine, Kashyyyyyk, and Manaan. And Taris. And the Leviathan. Yes, that probably comprised like 80% of the game, but whatever.

[Da_man]

I pesonally play through TSL more because it has a smoother interface, but I have probably 30 characters that are no farther than Telos. K1 is the better game, plot-, combat- and variety-wise. K1 had the perfect spaing, the long tutorial planet, the becoming of jedi and short planet to get the people used to being a jedi, whereas TSL has absolutely BORING two planets, peragus and telos (which 'm not even bothering to capitalize.) which made stop about there out of boredom after the first two playthroughs. Then the 3 planets you can visit in any order are way to short, and on top of that, you don't become a damn jedi until you are more than halfway throuh the game.

 

To sumarize my rant: TSL bad, K1 good

[JCarter426]

K1 is the better game, plot-, combat- and variety-wise. K1 had the perfect spaing, the long tutorial planet, the becoming of jedi and short planet to get the people used to being a jedi, whereas TSL has absolutely BORING two planets, peragus and telos (which 'm not even bothering to capitalize.) which made stop about there out of boredom after the first two playthroughs. Then the 3 planets you can visit in any order are way to short, and on top of that, you don't become a damn jedi until you are more than halfway throuh the game.

 

Wha? You're talking crazy talk. There are four planets you can visit, and only one of them is very short. And one is very, very long. And you're a Jedi for the whole game, not only half.

 

And what's wrong with Peragus?

[DarthAve]

And what's wrong with Peragus?

Not to speak for him, but I also feel that Taris > Peragus. With Taris, you get used to interacting with people, and you've got all the cool sidequests to do for people, like dueling ring or pazaak. On TSL, all that fun stuff is held off 'till Telos, and then it's only one pazaak player who plays for money. Peragus is nothin' but corpse and robot.

 

Oh yes, and on topic, I feel that the more I play TSL, the more I find, where when I play KOTOR, I don't really find any of this new stuff. Besides, until I go to Kashyyyk, I don't really find a single I like. Whereas in TSL I met the first teammate I liked in my sackish brown underpants. Although KOTOR's storyline is better, TSL kinda cuts it for me because it entises me a bit more, and keeps me coming back, where as KOTOR feels the same in every save data I have.

[JCarter426]

On TSL, all that fun stuff is held off 'till Telos, and then it's only one pazaak player who plays for money. Peragus is nothin' but corpse and robot.

 

That's exactly why I like Peragus.

 

It works better for the story. With Peragus, you're trapped on a station full of crazy droids and two people who you know you can't trust yet you need their help to escape; with Taris, you're supposed to be in a big rush to find Bastila and get off the planet, but you can't stop yourself from hanging out at the cantina playing pazaak.

 

Although, I agree that Taris was much better than Telos. I hate Telos. It was basically Taris, only with fewer side quests and a much longer main quest, and really ugly and dark (and not in the good way).

[Corinthian]

Peragus might have had some weight if it weren't for the fact that at Level 1 you can already carve through those Droids like they were Goblins. I spent most of Peragus wondering what the chuffing hell the Miners were smoking that allowed them to get slaughtered by enemies that are this pathetic.

[Hawkstrong16]

Peragus might have had some weight if it weren't for the fact that at Level 1 you can already carve through those Droids like they were Goblins. I spent most of Peragus wondering what the chuffing hell the Miners were smoking that allowed them to get slaughtered by enemies that are this pathetic.

 

Agreed.

 

TSL = need work.

K1 = Good

[Da_man]

Wha? You're talking crazy talk. There are four planets you can visit, and only one of them is very short. And one is very, very long. And you're a Jedi for the whole game, not only half.

 

And what's wrong with Peragus?

 

I define "jedi" as a dude that can use the force and has a lightsaber.

[Corinthian]

Exile wasn't a Jedi ever, actually, since he got banished from the Order, he was just a Renegade Force-Sensitive.

[Da_man]

Exile wasn't a Jedi ever, actually, since he got banished from the Order, he was just a Renegade Force-Sensitive.

 

Either way, the enemies were way to easy until you got to the sith academy at the end. Even then, Traya was the only hard one.

[JCarter426]

K1 wasn't all that difficult either. There were only a couple of tough enemies in the game, and they were too tough to the point where it was just annoying.

[Da_man]

K1 wasn't all that difficult either. There were only a couple of tough enemies in the game, and they were too tough to the point where it was just annoying.

 

Not on my first run-through, but no matter how many times I played it, Malak always kicked the crap outta me.