RedHawke Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Mod note: Conversation split from this modding thread, since it evolved in a direction that has little to do with the original modding question. ~M Actually IMHO the D&D alignment system is not really applicable to the Star Wars universe... Star Wars is not about Order (Law) or Chaos, it is purely about Good and Evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Well, I'd disagree. K2 isn't about good and evil at all. I'm not 100% familiar with the system, but wouldn't characters like Canderous and G0-T0 be "lawful evil", while HK would be "chaotic evil", Kreia "chaotic neutral (or, dare I say, good)"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robespierre Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 That's why I thought the definition of Canderous as "evil' was a bit...arbitrary. As HK-47 says "While Mandalore is effective at killing, he seems to derive little sport from it" - he doesn't kill for the fun of it, like HK. I would say that Kreia is chaotic neutral. Though for most of the game she is "true neutral", since her true motives remain hidden. Could you say that Visas was almost chaotic good? Or just neutral evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted April 22, 2008 Author Share Posted April 22, 2008 Well, I'd disagree. K2 isn't about good and evil at all. I strongly suggest you play the game again then... it is all about Good and Evil. The fact is that George Lucas himself has stated that Star Wars is all about good and evil, as that is what the whole story was based upon, stories of brave heros and imposing villans. K1 and K2 are no different, while K2 is more subtle it is still good vs evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 I strongly suggest you play the game again then... it is all about Good and Evil. I am playing the game again. I'm always replaying the game. And it's not about good and evil; it's about choosing a side. "Isn't that the same thing?" No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robespierre Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 And it's not about good and evil; it's about choosing a side. "Isn't that the same thing?" No. Well it is about good and evil, but its also about the reasons why. The characters in KotOR aren't evil just because they are all anarchists and they aren't all good because they believe in doing "the right thing". I mean look at Kreia - people would argue that she's "evil" even though her intentions weren't just in the goal of total anarchy. But then again HK-47 is evil because he likes being evil. He even says that being nice is repulsive to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Eh...I wouldn't say it's "about" good and evil...sure, there are good people and there are evil people, but it's not about good and evil in the sense that the Star Wars movies are about good vs evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted April 23, 2008 Author Share Posted April 23, 2008 I am playing the game again. I'm always replaying the game. And it's not about good and evil; it's about choosing a side. "Isn't that the same thing?" No. Eh...I wouldn't say it's "about" good and evil...sure, there are good people and there are evil people, but it's not about good and evil in the sense that the Star Wars movies are about good vs evil. Sorry but you are really missing something then... Star Wars... all Star Wars is about struggles between good and evil, stammer all you want to the contrary, that is a fact. Edit: I have it on pretty good authority that the alignment system from D&D was not even on the table for the D20 PnP Star Wars system, because of the universes black and white storylines, and GL's own statements. It is good and evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Say what you will, but K2 wasn't about that at all. There was no fight between good and evil. It was about the Exile reconciling with the past, with her decision to defy the Council and fight the Mandalorians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted April 23, 2008 Author Share Posted April 23, 2008 Say what you will, but K2 wasn't about that at all. There was no fight between good and evil. It was about the Exile reconciling with the past, with her decision to defy the Council and fight the Mandalorians. It was about Good and Evil and how the Exile's/Revan's decisions actually served one side over the other. Unless you can provide hard proof to the contrary you are simply spitting in the wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 It was about Good and Evil and how the Exile's/Revan's decisions actually served one side over the other. Unless you can provide hard proof to the contrary you are simply spitting in the wind. TSL is my favourite SW game as it is alot 'greyer' than pretty much all other SW games, however it is still about Good v Evil; ultimatly despite the game being grey, given you can't get a prestige class unless your either good or bad it would seem it is still about Good v Evil. While this new alignment system is interesting I think RH is correct in that evil is still evil; if you decide to shoot someone for sheer fun of it, or if you shot them so you could achieve the power you crave, still seems to me to just be evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Racer Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 It was about Good and Evil and how the Exile's/Revan's decisions actually served one side over the other. Unless you can provide hard proof to the contrary you are simply spitting in the wind. Um.... I would say the entire conversation with G0T0 on his ship deals with order and chaos. G0T0 isn't interested in the good versus evil battle, he's out to preserve order in the galaxy. He offers you 2000 credits for every system you help stabilize on your journey. This may be more of an aside, but it's still present. To me TSL always stands out among Star Wars story lines, because there is more to it than good versus evil. You have the ever present risk of chaos running in the background. There isn't another stupid, huge cookie cutter war going on as the backdrop. It's a galaxy on the verge of self-destruction. And at the center of it all, you have potentially the most unique force wielder of them all. Then there is the fact that in both games you can be good and disagree with the views of the Jedi. Just saying these games are about good vs. evil seems to belittle it somewhat. But then again, this game has plenty of the cookie cutter characters from the Star Wars Galaxy. Jedi council behaves exactly the same way as the council in the movies, making all the same blunders and suffering from all the same character flaws. Kriea plays a similar role to the exile to what Palpatine was to Anakin. But in the end you carve your own path and can be independent of both the Jedi and the Sith. Hell, you can tell the council there dead wrong about everything and earn lightside points... On a side note, I find you last comment could have been put better/nicer given that you are a moderator here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salzella Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Legacy of the Force series isn't black and white. Perhaps not a brilliant precedent, but i would certainly say Jacen Solo qualifies as 'Lawful Evil', Ben Skywalker as 'Chaotic Good'. Plus, no matter what the universe actually is, for those who wish it was otherwise, it would be an excellent way to have a deeper playthrough and characterisation? i was going to add something else, but i can't remember what it was. humph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted April 25, 2008 Author Share Posted April 25, 2008 Um.... I would say the entire conversation with G0T0 on his ship deals with order and chaos. G0T0 isn't interested in the good versus evil battle, he's out to preserve order in the galaxy. True but G0-T0 is the exception, he isn't the main part of the story, stopping Nihilus is. Even if the PC is acting out of their own evil intentions, good still triumphs because Nihilus the destroyer of worlds, the unending hunger is dead. Just saying these games are about good vs. evil seems to belittle it somewhat. Can't help that as George Lucas himself has stated this multiple times... The KotOR series being "Star Wars" has to follow suit, and does quite well. Notice the lightside endings are listed as the "canonical' endings for K1 and TSL, this is because of this fact. On a side note, I find you last comment could have been put better/nicer given that you are a moderator here. Really? There is nothing un-kind or wrong with what I said. In a debate you are allowed to ask for proof from the other debater when they make claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Can't help that as George Lucas himself has stated this multiple times... The KotOR series being "Star Wars" has to follow suit, and does quite well. Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Not to mention that he had nothing to do with either game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people? Because its G-canon... Don't make me bring out Jae's infamous 6 degree's of canon.... http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=174805&highlight=levels+canon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurges-Ahter Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people? I agree that Lucas had nothing/little to nothing to do with the game, but many accept what he says as fact because he, as the creator, is the ultimate decider of what is canon and what isn't. He probably knows less of the EU than many that use this board though, so it's hard for many to easily accept his word as fact. So, for the most part, I agree that we can't use Lucas as a validator of an argument for issues regarding KotOR; although his opinion should be considered in some cases, perhaps such as this one where the nature of the game, which is part of the EU, is in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inyri Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Why are we upset that George said the games are about good and evil? It's true -- they are. However they're not only about good and evil. It's a rare thing that can only be interpreted in one way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Why are we upset that George said the games are about good and evil? It's true -- they are. However they're not only about good and evil. It's a rare thing that can only be interpreted in one way. Silence infidel - the sacred texts can only be interpretated one way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salzella Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Lucas Schmucas. that's the most in-depth comment you're going to get out of me i'm afraid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Racer Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 Hum, bringing up Jacen is a good point... Everything he does is driven by is desperate desire to overt chaos and total war. At least as first... And he does good things and bad things to achieve this goal along the way. Seeing as he's the main character of the current story line in the books... Lucas also said in an interview, something about poetry and versus rhyming... Anakin blowing up the droid control ship in Episode One was symbolic of Luke blowing up the Death Star. So if we take Lucas's words as fact, then we are doomed to see the same story over and over again with new faces and places if we are lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHawke Posted April 26, 2008 Author Share Posted April 26, 2008 Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people? Because they are... perhaps you ought to read up on the state of things before you joust with people. Not to mention that he had nothing to do with either game. (See below) But your point(s) are irrelevant, sorry mate. I agree that Lucas had nothing/little to nothing to do with the game, but many accept what he says as fact because he, as the creator, is the ultimate decider of what is canon and what isn't. He probably knows less of the EU than many that use this board though, so it's hard for many to easily accept his word as fact. Unfortunately for this argument something called Lucas Licencing proves this wrong, he does indeed have final "control" of what is allowed to be made/produced with the Star Wars name. Sorry. So, for the most part, I agree that we can't use Lucas as a validator of an argument for issues regarding KotOR; although his opinion should be considered in some cases, perhaps such as this one where the nature of the game, which is part of the EU, is in question. This would hold water except as stated above. Basically this is like trying to argue what is Trek with Rodenberry, or what is Babylon 5 with Straczynski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 Er...what exactly did he have to do with making either game? Did he write the script, or did he do some skinning and modeling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inyri Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 He owns Star Wars. 'Nuff said. So as RedHawke suggested, your point is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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