Debate:: The True Sith (On Sunday!)

[adamqd]

This crap here exactly!! I remember gettin them when they first came out... What were they thinking lol. The novelization is much better

[The Source]

If anyone remembers "Shadows of the Empire", Vader lived in a castle at one point. Lol...

[Sir Vougalot]

Well no, Karpyshen did mention the ship in Rule of Two, but he described it very briefly as it was clear that he hated it.

[JCarter426]

I see Dark Horse's story of the Ancient Sith to be an introduction of Sith history to Star Wars fans. It's not unreasonable to think those writers thought of them as 'True' Sith. Introducing an unknown seperate faction seems a convenient way to fit someone else's story Arc. I would still consider this retcon(if that's how it plays out. Retcon being now you nullified Dark Horse's story since they were never 'True' Sith to begin with). IMHO of course, YMMV.

Uh...then why wasn't Revan's Sith Empire a retcon?

 

It's not nullifying anything...it's not saying that the TOTJ Sith didn't exist; rather, that they're not the only Sith on the block...and we already knew they weren't, as evidenced by Kun and Ulic's Sith, Revan's Sith, etc.

[RyuuKage]

Well no, Karpyshen did mention the ship in Rule of Two, but he described it very briefly as it was clear that he hated it.

 

with good reason, lol

 

and if you listen to our beloved Keeper of the Holocron, Leland Chee, you'll find that newer content is deemed "more accurate" than older works (for obvious reasons, considering the prequel trilogy and revised licensing and continuity data; in the beginning they weren't very meticulous), and so in the event of contradiction (such as between the prequel and original trilogies), the newer material supercedes the old (a good example would be Timothy Zahn placing the Clone Wars some 50 years before the events of the Thrawn Trilogy, when in fact they ended only 28 years before, which we did not learn until much later).

[deathdisco]

Uh...then why wasn't Revan's Sith Empire a retcon?

 

It's not nullifying anything...it's not saying that the TOTJ Sith didn't exist; rather, that they're not the only Sith on the block...and we already knew they weren't, as evidenced by Kun and Ulic's Sith, Revan's Sith, etc.

 

Were talking about 'True' Sith.

 

IMHO I think it's as simple as they come from the line of Ancient Sith(Kresh,Sado,Ragnos) being that the Sith in the game/EU learned their ways from Korriban, Malachor V, or seduced by Sith spirits. None were a part of the Sith Empire.

And again.

{snip}

IMHO of course, YMMV.

Remember the SW:EU is a take what you want and leave what you don't situation... just like a salad bar in a resturant.

[JCarter426]

Were talking about 'True' Sith.

So? The "True Sith" was just a name used by Kreia. It doesn't mean anything.

[deathdisco]

So? The "True Sith" was just a name used by Kreia. It doesn't mean anything.

 

You did read the title of this thread?

That is what were speculating about.

[JCarter426]

You've lost me. How does the existence of yet another separate group of Sith negate the existence of the Sith from Korriban?

[Darca Lar]

the "true Sith" is what Kreia referred to as a belief which ultimately dwells in the unknown regions. At least that's what I think she meant...

[deathdisco]

You've lost me. How does the existence of yet another separate group of Sith negate the existence of the Sith from Korriban?

I didn't mean they wouldn't exist anymore. Sorry, I should of been clearer.

I see Dark Horse's story of the Ancient Sith to be an introduction of Sith history to Star Wars fans. It's not unreasonable to think those writers thought of them as 'True' Sith. Introducing an unknown seperate faction seems a convenient way to fit someone else's story Arc. I would still consider this retcon(if that's how it plays out. Retcon being now you diminished the importance of Dark Horse's story since they were never 'True' Sith to begin with). IMHO of course, YMMV.

Fixed!

{snip}

If True Sith does in fact mean the "original" or "proper" Sith, separate and Older than Ragnos' Order, then I hate it,

if it is just meant as an ideal or ramblings of an old women then so be it.

{snip}

Agreed!

[JCarter426]

All right, I see. I still don't agree, but I see your point. I guess this one is from a certain point of view.

[Emperor Devon]

In order for what I have said to be an error, there should be information to prove otherwise.

 

And in order to attach any validity to what you said, there should be information to affirm it in the first place.

 

At the moment, we don't have the information to support or dissprove what I said.

 

Making it a negative and thus impossible to discuss (seriously).

 

Maybe we should ask Avellone...

 

OH, DEVON!

 

I'm not wasting his time on something this trivial! >_>

[Q]

Semantic arguments aside, being that it is a major plot point of TSL and Avellone's brainchild, I don't think that it is trivial and I don't believe that he would either.

 

It probably doesn't matter as it will all be retconned away in a few years anyway.

[Emperor Devon]

Semantic arguments aside, being that it is a major plot point of TSL and Avellone's brainchild, I don't think that it is trivial and I don't believe that he would either.

 

Sorry, thought you were referring to Source's speculations over which Sith was truer than who.

 

If I contacted him again, though, I honestly wouldn't expect much of an answer. If any at all, considering Obsidian saying anything about KotOR III is verboten. (And my doing so would probably come across as incessant. I'm sure he and Obsidian have gotten the question before.)

 

It probably doesn't matter as it will all be retconned away in a few years anyway. :rolleyess:

 

With how impossible a KotOR III looks, I'd venture so.

[Q]

Unfortunately I think that he may have been gagged by an NDA for the express purpose of retconning it all away. Remember how he couldn't comment on whether or not Kreia was Arren Kae? It's rather sad, really.

[RedHawke]

I'm afraid the "True Sith" is an obscure creation of Obsidian

Not entirely accurate... they were mentioned in Tales of the Jedi and the D6 RPG sourcebook that was written from that. Both of these were long before KotOR was made, let alone TSL.

[adamqd]

Where were they mentioned in TOTJ? (and not Ragnos' order) and was this D6 thing released before the ancient Sith empire we know existed was created?

[JCarter426]

Er...they weren't ever mentioned in TOTJ. They weren't mentioned at all before K2. The closest thing that comes to it is Canderous' remark that "the Sith came to [them] with an offer", the context of which is rather ambiguous.

[Sir Vougalot]

It seems to me that Canderous was referring to what remained of the Brotherhood of the Sith from Exar Kun's regime, since the time frame he was referring to was pre-Revan. This is a strong arguing point in my own theory that the line of Sith Lords was never broken, and that Revan and Malak met other Sith.

[JCarter426]

It seems to me that Canderous was referring to what remained of the Brotherhood of the Sith from Exar Kun's regime, since the time frame he was referring to was pre-Revan.

We don't know that it was. Canderous' statement is rather ambiguous; for all we know he could simply be referring to not the whole war, but jut the Battle of Malachor V, which was set up by a Sith.

[deathdisco]

All right, I see. I still don't agree, but I see your point. I guess this one is from a certain point of view.

 

Fair enough.

[Mudling]

I'm new to this forum, this is in fact my first post, so I'm sorry if this is off topic, but I posted my theory on the true sith a while ago on another forum, saying that they are not part of the sith, and therefore, no human/ non "true sith" could be part of them, here is my theory, beware, it's very long:

 

 

 

"The jedi knights use the force not for their own needs, but to preserve peace and justice within the galaxy.

The sith, however, aspire to aspire to manipulate and control the force for their own will.

 

It is tought throughout the galaxy that are mysterious thought controls the very galaxy, and whatever we do, whatever are our actions, they will all eventually lead down the same path guided by the force.

 

What if these "true sith" were "true sith" because they truley controlled the force, not to hurl enemies in the air, not to even control minds, no they went far beyond that, they controlled the very fate of the galaxy, through the force, they controlled everything.

 

Kreia realised this, and she realised the danger of the universe, so she aimed to destroy it. She tought her appreintice everything she knew, she sought for Revan to destroy it.

The mandalorian wars were brewing and the jedi did nothing, Revan recognised this as an act of the force, and realised it was controlling the jedi, so he left for war, wished to be free of the control of the force Somewhere along the lines, he began to look at the teachings of the sith, thinking that through their teachers, he would be able to control the force, and it would not have control over him.

The true sith were eagerly awaiting a reaction from the jedi, but they didn't get one, they feared that they had lost their power, so they sent a scout ship in search in order to determine what was happening.

The ship was soon found however, and fled, but by then, Revan had joined the war.

But he soon realised that an act of war was realy the will of the force after all, and so he set up Malachor V, weeded out the troops he did not need, and took all of his loyal army, those closest to him, into the depths of space, but it was too late to realise that he could not defeat them with an army, and in searching for them, he instead went down the lesser path of controlling the force, he fell to the dark side, and he thought he truely had control, but he was wrong.

 

Krea was distrought, having lost her apprietace, she went into hiding, looking for clues to his dissapearance, she visted Malachor V.

It was there she probably learnt about the Rakata, left behind by Revan, in the achadmey.

 

The Rakata infinite empire had control over many speacies, including the Sith'airi, and and learnt much, they even rivaled the truth sith, they had managed to infuse their technology with the force, such examples are the Star Forge.

Soon, they too would have control over the force, and would be able to face the true sith.

However, the true sith realised this, and stripped the Rakatar of their connection to the force, their empire, reliant, completly dependant on the force, crumbled, impacting the entire galaxy.

If true sith fled even further into the depths of the galaxy.

Kreia realised that you could not defeat them with an army, and decided instead to find a wound in the force, and rip it apart, destroying it, and it's control over everything, severing the true sith's power, and like the Rackatar, destroying them.

 

Since she knew how the true sith had defeated armies, should knew the weakness in one that did not see inverviduals, who saw beyond that, she used darth nilius as an opportunity, knowing that he could be defeated if she wished it, darth sion was also blind, but in this case, by desire, by passion, by lust for control that he could not have, but she underestimated him, and could not defeat him when she wished it, merely escape him, her pupil however could.

 

Revan, regaining memories of his previous self left to find the true sith, knowing no armies could defeat it, they saw on such a great scale that they could not see one indervidual, so he left alone, he suspected they were probably a small group, as it would destroy it'self with it's own size., so he would need no army.

 

Upon learning on the fate of her apprentace, Kreia sought to follow him, but knew herself as to weak, and instead trained the exile. When she knew she could not destroy the force, she instead used the hollowness of the exile, and told her to seek Revan, as the exile would not be effected, and was the ultamite weapon against the true sith, she was the lack of control, only she could destroy them.

 

So the exile left, knowing that she could take no one with her, perhaps merely being in the achadmey had rubbed off on her, and she had a sence of where to head.

 

But who are these true sith realy? Having said what I said, I would say the Whilis, they are seperated from the galaxy, watch over it, and yet are strangly attached, as if they are influencing it.

It is claimed that they were replaced by the force by Lucas, but what if they ARE the force.

 

Also, there is another theory that the Whilis are Yoda's speacies, futher upon my own theory, maybe some escaped, like Vandar, but lost their power, maybe Yoda joined the jedi order to make up for their speacies past.

Maybe the Whilis don't mean harm, yet the very fact that they are controlling everything is what pulls everyone against us, would be a nice discion to destroy them in the end or not.

 

Would be a realy interesting twist if your character wishes to take control of the force himself, best ending, evaaaa.

Also, I think Yoda's speaices as bad guys would be awesome, not in a pwnage kind of way, but because that even these noble creatures could not resist the ways of the sith, of control over the force.

 

The medi clorians however do not control the destiny of all, just the manipulation of life and matter, that is the true sith, or through the midi-clorians, the true sith control the galaxy.

It has been suggested that darth Plagius could create life, and influence midi-clorians, creating anakin, if he could do this, the true sith could control the medi clorians, and through them, everything.

However, it is suggested that the midi-clorians are sperate from the mystical side of the force, the side the true sith controls, in that case, they do not matter, since the true sith control a toatally different side of the force, unrelated to the midi-clorians.

 

The prohecy could have also been set by the true sith, maybe that was the only message they left to the rest of the galaxy.

 

But yes that is my theory, sorry it is a bit long, but I did think quite a bit over this, and am amazed that I could link so many things together."

 

Also, to add to my theory, Kriea specifically hates Atton, that is because as she states "the force looks out for one such as him", not only does she suggest that the force is intelligent, but it also that the true sith use fools such as atton, who people do not suspect of danger, in order to be a threat to the jedi, as he was, as well as in their own ways, because the jedi cannot read or predict them, or it is very difficult, she fears that Atton is a danger to the exile, and will too easily be controlled by the true sith, without them knowing.

 

To move my debate more along with the lines of the arguement here, because they are alien, and such a threat, and unlike anything we have ever seen before, no one we have encountered before in the KOTOR series could possibly be a true sith.

 

Also, because of the definitions of the true sith, or my interpretations of them, and that sith realy means control of the force, then the true sith aren't realy like the sith we know at all, if anything, they are like the original Sitharai, therefore, they do not have to necceraily be evil, therefore, it is very possible for the Whilis to be the true sith.

But even though they aren't evil, they are definally a threat, as I have said above.

[Rev7]

I guess that you could say that it is a possiblility....

 

BTW~ Welcome to the LucasForums Mudling!

[Non-false Jedi]

I'm new to this forum, this is in fact my first post, so I'm sorry if this is off topic, but I posted my theory on the true sith a while ago on another forum, saying that they are not part of the sith, and therefore, no human/ non "true sith" could be part of them, here is my theory, beware, it's very long:

 

 

 

"The jedi knights use the force not for their own needs, but to preserve peace and justice within the galaxy.

The sith, however, aspire to aspire to manipulate and control the force for their own will.

 

It is tought throughout the galaxy that are mysterious thought controls the very galaxy, and whatever we do, whatever are our actions, they will all eventually lead down the same path guided by the force.

 

What if these "true sith" were "true sith" because they truley controlled the force, not to hurl enemies in the air, not to even control minds, no they went far beyond that, they controlled the very fate of the galaxy, through the force, they controlled everything.

 

I suppose I could have said this on Bioware's place too but: That's an insanely ridiculous level of power. It makes no sense. If you can control fate, theres no point in try to stop them. The only people with that kind of power are the script writers themselves. I'm afraid I don't understand the rest of your idea either. If the force was directly compelling the Jedi not to enter the war, how come it didn't directly compell Revan not to either?