Alfie Kohn's "September 11th"

[igyman]

It is ignorant to believe that people (civilians) of other countries don't want us dead.

While I can agree with what you said about parents opening a dialog, etc, I truly don't understand this attitude. Why would someone like me, who lives on another continent want Americans dead? Why would anyone else from any other country want Americans dead? Other countries have their own problems, which won't be solved by killing anyone, not even Americans, so why would other countries care about the US?

 

We need people to unite the country. People like John McCain.

This is a topic I really am not qualified for and the reason is obvious - I'm not an American. If anyone asked me who I'd prefer to be the president of the US, I really couldn't say. I could only form an opinion on your two candidates based on their views regarding Kosovo, but the views of both candidates regarding it are the same and thus unacceptable to me.

[Yar-El]

While I can agree with most of the things you say from this point on, I truly don't understand this attitude. Why would someone like me, who lives on another continent want Americans dead? Why would anyone else from any other country want Americans dead? Other countries have their own problems, which won't be solved by killing anyone, not even Americans, so why would other countries care about the US?

Those are a good series of questons. There are so many reasons. We could sit here for days, and still not be able to cover all the answers. It is a problem for scholar as well. Not every person in those countries want to kill us; however, enough of those people do want to kill us.

 

This is a topic I really am not qualified for and the reason is obvious - I'm not an American. If anyone asked me who I'd prefer to be the president of the US, I really couldn't say. I could only form an opinion on your two candidates based on their views regarding Kosovo, but the views of both candidates regarding it are the same and thus unacceptable to me.

Thats okay. I altered the last line anyway, for I thought it was implying that only John McCain can unite my country. That was wrong of me. We have other good and great leaders that are also qualified. I'm just a McCain supporter.

[El Sitherino]

I take offense to your claim that I don't have a love for my country and consider myself a patriot.

 

Perhaps you should understand what it truely means to be patriotic before you cry out BH all over a thread.

[Ray Jones]

I'd like to point out that the citizens of the USA are basically just a bunch of immigrants who came rollin' in from all those communist, killer and just plain evil people filled countries.

[SW01]

I'd like to point out that the citizens of the USA are basically just a bunch of immigrants who came rollin' in from all those communist, killer and just plain evil people filled countries.

 

True enough. You should remember how many allies America has. Britain, for example, has followed America into the hell that is the Iraq war. I think the case may be being overstated a little - most with grievances against America (in Europe anyway) have problems with the government, not necessarily the people. We don't sit dreaming of the deaths of millions of people.

[Yar-El]

This is a heated debate. I can honestly understand why. I'm going to stand on my comments. You either stand with your country, through thick and thin, or you should go somewhere else to live. It's okay to educate people on the rights and wrongs of our actions, so we can learn from our mistakes. Just not at an educational level where kids should be taught about the blood and sacrifice that went into building the United States. Maybe the timming of this thread is bad. Who knows?

 

I wish you good luck with this debate.

 

To my friends who died in Iraq. To my friends who died in Afghanistan. To my father who faught in the Gulf War. To my grandfather who faught in World War II. God bless.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

My original post to this thread was filled with anger. I had to restrain myself. I started to look where everyone lived, and found my biggest mistake in posting. I thought everyone was from the United States. People from all over the globe visit here. How the United States views the world is different from how China or Cannada does. I allowed someone with the lack of U.S. history cloud my judgement, and that will never happen again. Alfie Kohn is a fool. I don't have to explain my view, but he is not a U.S. patriot in anyway. George Lucas and Lucas Arts is located in the United States. Freedom of speech in the United States is paramount. People have a right to their own opinion.

 

...

 

Patriots hold fast during the good and bad times. Strong men and women of faith have died for this country. Each man and women who sacrificed themselves did it for the greater good. Somtimes we get it right, and sometimes we get it wrong. Our freedoms will hold true in our darkest hours. Civilians have allways been a tragity in war. British soldiers killed hundreds trying to prevent colonization of the United States. Russia, China, Japan, and every other country in the world is guilty. What holds strong is the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Men and women have shead blood to protect those beliefs. I'm willing to bet that we can find fault in every single country in the world.

True patriotism isn't wearing a flag pin, posting a smilie with the the American flag on it and declaring loudly that you're a patriot. Being a true patriot is doing everything you can to protect your country, pointing out its flaws and trying to make it a better place no matter whom you may offend by not ignoring social, political, and economic issues. Mr. Kohn pointed out that the US is guilty of what the men and women who we've declared our enemies have done, not to simply offend, but to make it known that our citizens have allowed such things to happen and that they must make this country great and stop assuming that it is simply because it exists.

 

You pointed out that you love the US because of its Constitution and because of the rights given to its citizens, but a piece of paper will not keep those in power from trampling those rights or denying people in other countries the same rights we in the US enjoy. Thomas Jefferson said that "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots", and while I'm not suggesting something as dramatic as actually spilling the blood of others, I think blood in this case is an excellent metaphor for the sacrifice we must all make for this country to stay great (or perhaps reclaim its greatness) instead of allowing an apathetic consumer culture to become mainstream.

 

In my eyes, Mr. Kohn, even if his timing was perhaps inappropriate, is more of a patriot than many of the politicians who are unwilling to acknowledge the US' faults for fear of reprisal from their party or sell out their beliefs to get elected and gloss over the truth to paint a picture of the US as a country incapable of doing wrong.

[Web Rider]

The logic is the same. You said that European countries weren't an example we should follow and the US shouldn't have try and become one because of this.

 

And you mentioned racial oppression.

Racial OPPRESSION. Not genocide. The difference is that in the former, their lives suck, in the latter, they're dead.

 

You responded to igy's comment about unnecessary wars and focusing on domestic problems with a huffy 9/11 comment as if it's some omni-rebuttal.

That was because Igy seemed to be saying "nobody's out to get you". And while on the whole I don't think the world is out to get the US, but quite obviously, some people are.

 

"Hey don't you think we should be focusing on fixing Social Security and finding a viable alternative to oil instead of fighting in Iraq?"

"Perhaps you didn't hear of this event, it's called 9/11. Or this guy, Bin Laden, he's kinda 'out to get us.'"

"..."

 

That kinda looks like he's acknowledging other countries do bad **** too but idk I'm not really an expert reader like you.

I'm sure you'll improve.

 

I'd like to point out that the citizens of the USA are basically just a bunch of immigrants who came rollin' in from all those communist, killer and just plain evil people filled countries.

 

That's true for a lot of countries. People have moved in an out of various areas for pretty much all of history.

[Yar-El]

You are right guys. I'm wrong. I'll move along to another topic. Sorry for leaving a comment.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Racial OPPRESSION. Not genocide. The difference is that in the former, their lives suck, in the latter, they're dead.

I didn't say "hey sithy old boy let's go commit genocide then we can retire to the parlor for a smoke and sip tea and get crunk", so my comparison is still valid to the discrimination against the Jewish people in Germany before the Nazis started shipping them along with many other groups to death camps. Things like social exclusion, discrimination, confinement to ghettos and events like Krystal Nacht count as oppression last I checked.

 

 

That was because Igy seemed to be saying "nobody's out to get you". And while on the whole I don't think the world is out to get the US, but quite obviously, some people are.

That wasn't what you were responding to though.

 

 

You are right guys. I'm wrong. I'll move along to another topic. Sorry for leaving a comment.

No need to apologize for voicing your opinion on an issue like this

[Web Rider]

I didn't say "hey sithy old boy let's go commit genocide then we can retire to the parlor for a smoke and sip tea and get crunk", so my comparison is still valid to the discrimination against the Jewish people in Germany before the Nazis started shipping them along with many other groups to death camps. Things like social exclusion, discrimination, confinement to ghettos and events like Krystal Nacht count as oppression last I checked.

unforunately the original comment of yours got snipped, so I can't refer back to what originally set me off, so I consider this part finished.

 

 

That wasn't what you were responding to though.

You're going to have to be more specific, I responded to a lot of points in igy's posts.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

You're just another country with problems of your own and all your energy would be better spent on trying to solve those problems rather than going around and making unnecessary and inexcusable wars.

Perhaps you didn't hear of this event, it's called 9/11. Or this guy, Bin Laden, he's kinda "out to get us."

To me this just seemed like a bit of a non sequitur, he makes a suggestion about US foreign policy and some of the more horrible things it's done, and you respond with mentioning 9/11 as if it excuses what the US has done.

[Web Rider]

To me this just seemed like a bit of a non sequitur, he makes a suggestion about US foreign policy and some of the more horrible things it's done, and you respond with mentioning 9/11 as if it excuses what the US has done.

 

Yes, though it's supposed to be taken in context with the previous quote:

Except ya know, the event that started this thread. Or am I just paranoid and that's all done by the Masons and aliens?

Which was a response to:

The reality is that nobody's "out to get you", the rest of the world couldn't care less about the United States, but the majority of your public seems to have been so influenced by either government propaganda, or the Hollywood film industry (think of all those action movies where the hero goes and kills a bunch of evil Russians/Arabs/Germans/etc who want to destroy the US) that they just can't realize it.

Where he stated that really, nobody's out to get the US. Which he continued with:

You're just another country with problems of your own and all your energy would be better spent on trying to solve those problems rather than going around and making unnecessary and inexcusable wars.

Which, again seemed to be saying that "everyone's got problems, nobody wants to kill you."

To which I responded with the quote you've been hooked on

Perhaps you didn't hear of this event, it's called 9/11. Or this guy, Bin Laden, he's kinda "out to get us."

Which was a more specific version of my previous response, and that, yes indeed, some people ARE trying to get us, and some people in the world do care about what we do, and we're not simply hyped up on government propaganda.

 

Does it justify every US action? Does it justify bad US actions? To the former, no, I'm not excusing or justifying every or all US actions. It could justify some bad actions, but that's really not my aim. If it justifies anything, it justifies going after Bin Laden. So, yeah, it justifies some actions in response.

[jonathan7]

Pruned a few posts, please back up opinions - this is a discussion forum, you should at least show to someone else why you think what you think. Please be civil to one another too I know this is an emotive subject.

[Yar-El]

No need to apologize for voicing your opinion on an issue like this

I'm just not a good debater. Having family in the military makes discussions like this emotional. You overlook what is said, and then you jump in filled with emotion.

[jonathan7]

I'm just not a good debater. Having family in the military makes discussions like this emotional. You overlook what is said, and then you jump in filled with emotion.

 

No worries your free to express your opinion, just remember to try to help us explain what you do; also see my note earlier in thread, regarding taking time of emotional posts, and perhaps not making a post until you have calmed down.

[El Sitherino]

I'm just not a good debater. Having family in the military makes discussions like this emotional. You overlook what is said, and then you jump in filled with emotion.

 

I agree, but what I want for my loved ones in the military is to be as safe but effective as possible. We should make courses of action that progress our country. I'' unfortunately unable to serve in the Corp but I have done my share of work for this nation abroad.

[Yar-El]

I work for a government contractor.