End of Capitalism and Beginning of Communism?

[EnderWiggin]

I wrote a book on symbolism eight years ago, and I explored how imagery was adapted across societies.

 

Pics or it never happened.

 

_EW_

[Yar-El]

Pics or it never happened.

_EW_

EnderWiggin,

 

I don't know why you give people a hard time, nor can I create a revelation about why you give me a difficult time. This thread is about the possible end of Capitalism. Why does it even matter to you about my successes or lack there of? What is mine belongs to me, and my life should not be important to you.

 

Lets get back on the road before us. Communism and socialism. I'll wait for a reply from those who want to talk about them.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

EnderWiggin,

 

I don't know why you give people a hard time, nor can I create a revelation about why you give me a difficult time. This thread is about the possible end of Capitalism. Why does it even matter to you about my successes or lack there of? What is mine belongs to me, and my life should not be important to you.

Except you brought it up to lend your words more credibility than just the average poster here. You dragged it into the conversation and he has every right to call you on it and ask you to prove it.

 

 

reminiscent of apes fighting for tribal dominance.

[ET Warrior]

There are more people to blame for this than just wallstreet and regular lobbyists.

Like Barack Obama amirite?

 

I am calling shenanigans on the premise of this thread, that somehow adding some more socialistic oversight into our economy is suddenly going to erase our liberties. (Certainly no more than things like the Patriot Act have already done). There is no logical progression from socialism to evil dictatoring.

[Exiled Raya]

Isn't regulated capitalism where we are now? It seems to be a fairly big reason for some of our problems, as opposed to the purer form of capitalism that this nation enjoyed when it was first founded.

 

It seems we flourished with fewer regulations, but the more regulations the government puts in place the harder it becomes to do business and be economically viable.

 

I'm in no way saying that companies should be able to mistreat workers, or do extensive environmental damage, so please don't think I am. I'm just curious as to why our government feels the need to impose unconstitutional laws on we the people, and even more perplexed as to why any citizen would be okay with that?

[Darth_Yuthura]

I think Communism has had a bad rep because it was implemented poorly in the Soviet Union. The USSR is probably the face of communism because it was just a superpower only two decades ago and could challenge the US since before WWII.

 

China has a Communist system of government and it is now a direct threat to the US... economically. Because of our free market economy, the US has overextended its resources and its own citizens are becoming increasingly self-destructive to the very system that allowed such freedoms in the past.

 

If you look at who really has the power within our state, it's those with the wealth to influence the system to best suit them. The Bush administration is proof that our free-market economy and government are easily corruptible.

[vanir]

I think the problem is that the end of strict Capitalism does not entail the rise of full-blown Communism. What we're likely to see is a mixed socialistic economy, whereby the markets have a degree of both individualistic choice and governmental oversight.

 

(FYI: Communism isn't an economic philosophy: it's a social one. Socialism is the economic term for governmental oversight of an economy, usually through regulations and controlling a varying degree of the means of production; a vast majority of countries (even the US, pre-bailout - look at the FDA) have socialistic practices in their economies. Socialism can extend from partial regulation and government ownership of only the essential means of production, as in the US' case with the stock market and energy utility companies as examples, to wholly-governmental controlled economies as in Soviet Russia. )

 

Not strictly true. The diametrics are socialism and capitalism and either wholly relate to economic policy. Communism tosses in collectivisation, which I personally disagree with and feel does contravene the intention of democracy as epitomising the inalienable rights of the individual, however it does this by approach, that is, via economic policy alone. It is neither necessarily a totalitarian nor absolutist state but depends upon the political outlook of the governing body (whether representative, select or dictatorial). In the case of Soviet communism this was the soviets of course, a Russian term for a type of union body (workers councils).

This was not necessarily however the original Bolshevik ideal, collectivisation was most certainly not the dream of Lenin, though how talented he was in terms of constructing a workable system is open to debate.

There was also the Menshevik diametric to the Bolshevik revolutionaries, of which either were Marxist but interpreted differently how this should be enacted in government. Stalin forced his own ideas shortly after the death of Lenin, whilst it was the army which were mostly responsible for the succession of the Bolsheviks over the Mensheviks. The soviets (based in St Petersberg at the time) were also heavily involved in the initial Russian Revolution and represented a third interest, less revolutionary and in fact more conservative, quite like the way the Nazis in Germany claimed to be revolutionary but were in fact strict conservatives with little originality and few ideals not directly associated with personal greed.

 

As far as the OP is concerned, the very assertion a delapidation of capitalism as a default governing body lending to the rise of (Stalinist) communism with any attempt to satisfactorily address the situation with benevolence is completely ridiculous.

It is no more than the argument, "if you are not with me (personally, all the time) you are against me (and I am justified abusing your ideals)." It is mindless banter with no political value, reminiscent of apes fighting for tribal dominance.

 

The problem with US politics is the abandonment of any independent governing body for the ascendancy of capitalism (an economic policy) as the default government per se. Meanwhile personal agendas and willing ignorance lends itself to the complete abandonment of any semblence to the democratic ideal, which according to the age of Enlightenment was in fact solely and wholly the inalienability of common individual rights, placing such rights at the very pinnacle of all other governing authorities regardless of circumstance.

 

The US lost democracy shortly after 9/11 and now resembles little more than the Schutzstaffeln fantasy it's fostered ever since it saw those pretty black SS uniforms and Tiger tanks way back in WW2. Bush even sounded like the big H.

[Darth Avlectus]

I thought there was a difference between regulation and socialist oversight but since I haven't information to addequately refute or confirm that, I'll move onto my next point if it's all the same and regualtion equals socialism... (though I have my doubts)...

 

Food for thought:

 

What is so bad about socialism? Nothing yet. I'm not saying it would absolutely spill over into dictatorship, however, that's how it starts.

I am saying that if the socio-machine gets too powerful, then we could have a combination of all the wrong freedoms and regulations creating undesirable conditions. Then again, we possibly have that already.

 

What's really eating me is the more we cede *our* responsibilities to government, the more it would make sense the government would want to have more control over our freedoms. Yet people choose to ignore that.

 

Where there is centralization of control, I fear that that the control will more and more exclude the people as they are pushed to the outer frey. Oh sure, "oversight comittees" will "overlook the actions of the government", but that's saying the government will watch the government. Like saying corporate will watch corporate. Even if the comitees are not necessarily the same entity but arbitrary...without accountability and transparency to THE people they might as well be entities of either.

 

Fact: PEOPLE run government, PEOPLE run corporations...a 2 way system where either one or the other reigns. It just isn't working.

 

So keep in mind, *THE PEOPLE* and our personal rights and freedoms as well as OUR POWER are necessary to keep commerce and government in place.

 

Unfettered capitalism (NAFTA of more recent years, and recently formulated CAFTA)

is just as bad as unfettered government.

 

THE people are those not in government, those not running commerce.

 

Of government: people who run government, in TRUST of THE people.

 

Of commerce: people who run business, by DEMAND of THE people.

 

"It will never survive with a corrupt foundation!!!" --Zero, MegaMan X6

 

If you have to ask what keep THE people in place (you need to get a job and read the law books): We follow the laws, we work in the commerce.

 

Is this a triad? Maybe.

 

EDIT: Freedoms and regulations in all the wrong ways...

Freedoms: Clinton supported NAFTA which is now acting as a machine to undermine mom and pop businesses; Clinton did nothing to stop congress from turning over the social security fund into a general fund which got spent--little was left by the time bush got in office. Ironic, the unfettered freedom of funds has robbed us of retirement on the government. HAH-I knew I couldn't count on that...Thanks Bill. Unfettered capitalism has taken the freedom of opportunity FROM innovative people looking to start their own business. I wish I could believe Obama, but it looks like many clinton cabinet members are returning. I wonder if Obama will eject those in his cabinet critical towards the clintons to get hillary on board?

 

Regulations in the wrong: The attrocious patriot act--many of our rights have/are/are continuing to be dissappearing. R.I.N.O.'s not preserving the governing structure. Look for something that got silently passed through congress 5/19/07 or thereabouts. Gee, thanks Dub'ya bushwhacker.

The new coming taxes on our earnings; Gross or net? Oh sure it's largely INTENDED for NET, but that hasn't been specified yet and also it depends...there are circumstances where it could apply in gross.

The 9/20/08 thing bush signed in for regulations that will be hard to undo once past the 21st... (Obama, hope you caught *that* one), how government regulations can DICTATE TO YOU what your time off is, what your benefits are...

 

Doesn't affect me because I'm in a mom and pop handyman business? It might if I have to find another job because there isn't enough $$$ to go around for our services!

[Allronix]

Well, folks. I am an American Socialist. The American "dream" is just that - a dream. When 20% of the population controls about 80% of the total wealth of this country? (http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html) This kind of wealth distribution hasn't been seen since the Gilded Age, and I frankly find it disgusting.

 

Americans now work more hours than the Japanese and what in hell are we getting out of it? Take inflation out of the equation, and the average American has seen the amount of hours they work increase while their salaries decrease (US Dept. of Labor). Fifteen percent of American workers have no insurance to help them when they get sick, and even if you do have insurance? Well, the profit margin rules all, and health care costs are the primary cause of bankruptcy in this nation.

 

If we, as workers, want anything but endless wage slavery and posterity with dimmer prospects, we're going to have to pry it out of their cold, stiff hands. Workers had to fight to get any kind of safety equipment on the job. Workers had to fight to get an eight-hour day or weekends. Women are STILL fighting for equal pay (Ledbetter v Goodyear).

 

I'd rather have a government I can kick out of office calling shots than a CEO I can't.

[Darth Avlectus]

I'd like to respond to you Allronix, but my post might just be too big, but your argument is noted. There are some disagreements, but I believe these primarily fundamental and that we will never see eye to eye. As far as

bigwig tycoons? I think they ought to be held accountable. AS WELL AS GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS. Kick out of office? Sure. So would I, Allronix. However, career politicians are all dancing around in their special interest groups. Kick one out, another takes his/her place. You can't tell me *that* doesn't happen. As far as bigwigs I should get this out: Curious that Obama's cabinet has Franklin Rains, the former CEO of Freddie Mack on it...

Rahm Emanuel? Wasn't he on the advisor board of Fannie Mae from 2000 to 2002?

 

I don't trust either entity Corporation or Government.

 

What I'd like to get on the table:

I'd like a straight answer as to how MORE government will INCREASE freedoms??? I don't care what anyone says, the reality always works out that THE people are left holding the bag. MY big questions are

1) WHERE is accountability? (for BOTH government AND corporations)

2) WHY are we not enforcing laws already on the books? --Now we want MORE laws? How many times have we amended, appended, added to, taken away from, altered, or otherwise screwed with our constitution and made contradictory laws?

 

Anyway while controls like max wage cap may sound great in this age of "class jealousy" (After all isn't a couple billion enough???), BUT, consider how it could DRASTICALLY backfire. It is NOT the solution.

There *has* to be a better way than a maximum wage cap, because there is no real way (other than ethical behavior and integrity), to tell if that money will even GO to the little people. These things are decided arbitrarily and are not transparent. Arbitrary parties like power all their own. If I have learned one thing about power, it is (you guessed it) M$NEY. Oh sure thare is power of election and trust from the people...but life doesn't work that way. Sadly you all know that saying: Money talks and (something that stinks) walks. Regardless of whatever system we have.

 

Worse is that, were there to be a cap put on wages, it may go for the rich FIRST...but that does NOT mean that the wealthy will be the LAST to be capped off. Guess whose next? And guess whose next after that?

There's already trouble with earnings which is bad enough. If it is law there'll be no incentive to work hard whatsoever.

 

You could put all these arbiter sharks and regulations on it, but, if the governing body is corrupt, it could just become selective and decide what is best is whatever makes it more powerful.

 

Whatever your thoughts, Just look at Hugo Chavez on how WRONG this could get to be. Whatever you are for, just remember that THIS is something you need to keep an eye on. I'm talking more about not ceding our responsibilities to government so we keep our power? Consider this a responsibility.

 

The greedy have been irresponsible. Instead of enacting laws, why not build our case at large-on all fronts?

[Allronix]

I keep hearing this "there's no incentive to work hard" argument, and I have to wonder about this; if people are so divorced from the importance of work, that you must threaten them with starvation, illness, and death to get them to do anything, then that's just another form of slavery.

 

No one walks into their job intending to abuse customers, or do sloppy work. However, it's really easy to take the low road if you're treated as a number, bullied, or seen as a necessary evil.

[Darth Avlectus]

You know what, you're absolutely right. It's NOT fair. It bothers the hell out of me to hear that after I slaved away for hours--but I don't let it get to me: People will *always* have a reason to whine about your work.

I'm sure I'll get more $$$ over time, or with an eduacation (if I can ever get my act together for that).

I'd suggest that if you're in a dead end and you are not particularly respected for what you do, that it's time to move onto something else the next best possible chance. Just something I overheard from a career consultant. I respect that your situation is different--but there is no need to affect everyone else's life bringing down a law.

I'm sorry if that's not possible to move on. (I will have you in my thoughts and pray for your blessing).

There are studies looking into workplace bullying and how counterproductive it becomes after enough time. Who knows? Maybe someone can look into your case?

 

EDIT (for shortness): There are bosses like that. It's a cop out and a power trip. I don't let it get to me, though.

<snip>

long and short, I have no health insurance, yet I face certain danger. I don't whine about it.

 

Customers? Yeah, they're douchebags by the lot.

 

Incentive: I mean to be at least proud of the work I did by day's end. Even where nobody else will be. Nobody can say in good conscience I didn't earn it. That doesn't make me a stupid slave. I guess it all depends how you look at it.

 

I can support myself on my current wages. How about if I wanted a family but my wages were fixed to a maximum of, say $11/hr gross? I doubt it, but I'd try real damn hard anyway. Or maybe you'd rather children were all ward of the state?

We may never see eye to eye. I don't know your specific situation for a fact.

 

I've been a worker/boss. Handyman: housekeeper, electrician, contractor's grunt, clean up.

Go on if you will about the way you wish things were: I have no choice but to compete with illegals, immigrants (legalized citizens), and for possibly less than I'm worth. I don't condone it, but I understnad why it happens having seen some schmuck coworkers. Frankly, If you want to throw up your arms in disgust. Fine. I don't qualify for a lot of government aid. Even if I did, I don't think I could live with myself as an able bodied person if I did that. Disabled, it's a different story.

 

I don't blame others for my lack of success because I chickened out a few years ago--or that I never got along real well with college, it's depressing. I strive to at least be proud of my work, even if I know it won't be appreciated. It sucks. I still try to find something to be happy about. Like sharing with you and other people, here. I never gave up. I still haven't given up on school or finding something better.

 

I'm sorry if you have given up on yourself.

 

Slavery. We could very well be headed back to it. At least I don't sit around with my hand out waiting for a check. I try to do something about it. I absolutely agree with you on the point of "fight it". I disagree with a maximum wage cap because I see no way of assuring the money would go back to the benefit of the people, nor a way that maximum wage caps wouldn't end up coming back to haunt us. Perhaps in short order.

 

I guess the reason we speak of socialsim now?: Trouble is that nobody seems to care about meritocracy anymore. I suppose we've accidentally evolved away from the iron will that once characterized us. And I am a man out of my time. That and conscience has dissappeared. Still, I see innovative people which gives me hope.

[jonathan7]

<snip>

 

You know there is a big massive hole in the mentality that we need to work for success - why? Why put up with all the things you listed? What is the point? What is the point of life? Do those possessions really make you any happier? Does the better job really make you happy? When you get that better car, are you content or do you now want another??

 

I ask this because, it ultimately if you think life is pointless then why bother working? If we are nothing but a genetic blip in the cosmic drama of the universe that is extinguished quickly why work hard?

[Darth Avlectus]

"""""I ask this because, it ultimately if you think life is pointless then why bother working?"""""

 

No point? As I suspect you missed it entirely.

 

 

WHY do I suffer? So I can be happy. It is not possible to be happy with a sterile life, free from hardships.

 

"""""If we are nothing but a genetic blip in the cosmic drama of the universe that is extinguished quickly why work hard?"""""

 

What if I said you were nothing more than property and had no conscience, no soul, no spirit? That you were just my tool? And I decreed you have no right to speak?

You'd be offended; I just denied you something fundamentally yours.

 

When I hear you say something like that, it makes my blood boil. For a moment I even considered dicing you with my katana. However, I'm not a murderer... But the contempt. Such utter contempt!

I doubt you could understand, johnathan7. There is no way I can make a short explanation of this. To deny me my usefulness, to relegate me like some tool...god-damn it. You make the hairs on my neck stand.

 

The reasons I am a free marketeer--and I am so adamant about MERIT in capitalism...... Success is something you YOURSELF define. Climbing to the top of some heap may be somebody else's idea for success, but YOU may ultimately wind up VERY unhappy. It is easy to get lost. So you must center yourself.

 

It is okay to earn as much as you can ON MERIT. At some point, though, you need to be responsible for others. To provide in a mutual relationship. Make a true family-not just flesh and blood. To watch out for others. Like family. Not coddle them--you hold them to their word, and they you.

 

Caring for the heards amongst you. "Your troops respect you only if you are a man amongst them," as Miyamoto Musashi once said.

 

A government doesn't do that--it's impersonal. You are a number as far as it cares. I resent the government who would take away a system that rewards incentive, self sustaining, initiative, work ethic. That breaks families. Limiting what I can rightfully earn--yet some slug can get away with a living without working? That's as bad as the fascist.

 

I resent the greedy pigs who make a bad name for free marketeering and capitalism by getting fat while making everyone else work for them. Cheating and monopolizing. Spoiling themselves. They earned it? Perhaps--but they are also irresponsible. Keeping it all to themselves. They make everyone else that earned something look like tyrants. Similar are the lazy pigs at the wellfare trough.

 

If I got it of ill doing...I have to get RID of it. If I get things or status and I did not EARN it, then I have this empty feeling I cannot shake. I care for the ACCOMPLISHMENT.

 

If it is shared or a gift I cherish it, but I admire the thought.

If it is a need, you must earn it.

 

If it is a want beyond your needs, you must earn it. You can only keep so many before it affects your life negatively, though. Choose wisely.

---------------------------------------

 

I guess the reason I put myself through such torture for work is to keep perspective. Life wasn't meant to be comfortable. Manual labor is back breaking filthy work, but it's honest. I can relax at the end of the day and not dwell about my hardship. I face it down as it comes. I beat it back.

Maybe I just don't see thigns the same as most. I guess I reacted differently: I grew up and I realized not everyone even has food to eat. However I saw others who get a wellfare check and all they do is watch ESPN all day. That pisses me off. I use it as motivation.

 

There is much to be said about *achieving* something. Building something. Making things happen. Unless you have done something like it--to do something over a LONG TERM. To pour hours of blood and sweat and tears and FRUSTRATION into something--you don't know exactly what the feeling is like. To pour your LIFE into something and finally achieve it: Victory.

 

Actually this is a perfect opportunity to tell you about MY OLD car. I learned the hard way walking and biking all around town for years before I ever got a car. This wasn't hard. But I had no real requirements either.

 

Alas, I had to learn to drive. I grew up. I got a car. Took it for granted. It broke down at the worst possible time.

 

The car had a problem with a carburaetor. A 1985 honda accord. I wasn't exactly the most technically incline with respect to engines--still not. It was going to cost almost $2,000 to replace or work on it. Nobody wanted to work on it either. I didn't have money. I decided I at least have to try something else--there was NO way I was going to continue to make it by hoofing or renting cars for very long. But I didn't give up or give in. You should NEVER feel sorry for yourself.

What did I do about the car? I fixed it MYSELF. After work and after long transit. I had a resourceful uncle with a few tools and lots of parts. But he didn't do the work, *I* did. It was dirty, confusing, complex. It took me a few weeks. I had to map out all the schematics for the vacuum lines. It was tedious. Bending, torquing, pulling, pushing. I spent hours after work and transit, failure after failure, pain and fatigue, because I realistically had no other choice.

 

I succeded. The feeling of the victory was unlike anything I ever had before. Able to drive what should have become scrap for 3 weeks. I gave it another 8 months to live. She died on me for the last time and I was crushed.

 

I guess you have never poured painstaking hours of your life into something. Then find later you can't breathe any more of your life back into it. So you could never understand the thrill of accomplishment.

 

I know it seems foolish to you: I bought another car by now--so what's the big deal???

 

The big deal: you never treasure something until you have poured some of your life into it only so it might last a little heile longer. You never know the loss you endure until your own work and toil dies on you. Frankly I am ready to do it again, and again if I must for my current car. The next. My home. Most things I have.

 

This is why America is what it is.

Work ethic is not something you just 'have' or get. It is YOU.

 

Ever wonder why grandpa got so upset at having to move from that little old house he built so long ago?

Ever wonder why people act like family has died when something of theirs is destroyed--namely something they built?

Ever wonder why someone gets depressed about having to go into retirement?

 

You might *know* why...but you have never truly *understood* it until you have ACHIEVED it.

The spirit of the working class.

 

Destined now to be at the leash of government.

[Chevron 7 locke]

I really don't think America is going to turn to Communism...it just doesnt seem possible with obama as president

[jonathan7]

"""""I ask this because, it ultimately if you think life is pointless then why bother working?"""""

 

No point? As I suspect you missed it entirely.

 

I asked a question that philosophers since the beginning of time have answered - if you can't answer it, I would highly suggest that you have missed the point and not I... I know the point of my life.

 

WHY do I suffer? So I can be happy. It is not possible to be happy with a sterile life, free from hardships.

 

What is happiness?

 

"""""If we are nothing but a genetic blip in the cosmic drama of the universe that is extinguished quickly why work hard?"""""

 

What if I said you were nothing more than property and had no conscience, no soul, no spirit? That you were just my tool? And I decreed you have no right to speak?

You'd be offended; I just denied you something fundamentally yours.

 

I really wouldn't be offended, I view all things as open to discussion - ask around the boards its pretty hard to offend me. Nor does the above in anyway go to answering my question - I asked if this is all there is why work hard, and then you asked a whole load of things entirely irrelevant.

 

When I hear you say something like that, it makes my blood boil. For a moment I even considered dicing you with my katana. However, I'm not a murderer... But the contempt. Such utter contempt!

 

Firstly threatening a mod with violence is hardly smart :|

 

When you hear me ask a question your blood boils, I was interested to hear your answer. My general experience of people is they don't have answers for why they think what they think - so I was intrigued to see if you could tell my why an individual should work hard...

 

I doubt you could understand, johnathan7. There is no way I can make a short explanation of this. To deny me my usefulness, to relegate me like some tool...god-damn it. You make the hairs on my neck stand.

 

I have an IQ of 147, I assure you, if you explain coherently I'd understand - I understand you implicitly for the record, I was interested to see if you knew why you think what you do.

 

The reasons I am a free marketeer--and I am so adamant about MERIT in capitalism...... Success is something you YOURSELF define. Climbing to the top of some heap may be somebody else's idea for success, but YOU may ultimately wind up VERY unhappy. It is easy to get lost. So you must center yourself.

 

Again what is the point on climbing to the top of the heap or not? "So you must center yourself" - Please elaborate.

 

It is okay to earn as much as you can ON MERIT. At some point, though, you need to be responsible for others. To provide in a mutual relationship. Make a true family-not just flesh and blood. To watch out for others. Like family. Not coddle them--you hold them to their word, and they you.

 

Why at some point do you need to be responsible for someone?

 

Caring for the heards amongst you. "Your troops respect you only if you are a man amongst them," as Miyamoto Musashi once said.

 

Why?

 

A government doesn't do that--it's impersonal. You are a number as far as it cares. I resent the government who would take away a system that rewards incentive, self sustaining, initiative, work ethic. That breaks families. Limiting what I can rightfully earn--yet some slug can get away with a living without working? That's as bad as the fascist.

 

I resent a system that allows individuals to die because they can't afford health insurance. The right to receive health care should be free.

 

I resent the greedy pigs who make a bad name for free marketeering and capitalism by getting fat while making everyone else work for them. Cheating and monopolizing. Spoiling themselves. They earned it? Perhaps--but they are also irresponsible. Keeping it all to themselves. They make everyone else that earned something look like tyrants. Similar are the lazy pigs at the wellfare trough.

 

The fact you don't like it still doesn't change the fact they are always because of human nature what capitalism ends up with.

 

If I got it of ill doing...I have to get RID of it. If I get things or status and I did not EARN it, then I have this empty feeling I cannot shake. I care for the ACCOMPLISHMENT.

 

If it is shared or a gift I cherish it, but I admire the thought.

If it is a need, you must earn it.

 

If it is a want beyond your needs, you must earn it. You can only keep so many before it affects your life negatively, though. Choose wisely.

 

Again - why?

---------------------------------------

 

I guess the reason I put myself through such torture for work is to keep perspective. Life wasn't meant to be comfortable. Manual labor is back breaking filthy work, but it's honest. I can relax at the end of the day and not dwell about my hardship. I face it down as it comes. I beat it back.

Maybe I just don't see thigns the same as most. I guess I reacted differently: I grew up and I realized not everyone even has food to eat. However I saw others who get a wellfare check and all they do is watch ESPN all day. That pisses me off. I use it as motivation.

 

There is much to be said about *achieving* something. Building something. Making things happen. Unless you have done something like it--to do something over a LONG TERM. To pour hours of blood and sweat and tears and FRUSTRATION into something--you don't know exactly what the feeling is like. To pour your LIFE into something and finally achieve it: Victory.

 

Actually this is a perfect opportunity to tell you about MY OLD car. I learned the hard way walking and biking all around town for years before I ever got a car. This wasn't hard. But I had no real requirements either.

 

Alas, I had to learn to drive. I grew up. I got a car. Took it for granted. It broke down at the worst possible time.

 

The car had a problem with a carburaetor. A 1985 honda accord. I wasn't exactly the most technically incline with respect to engines--still not. It was going to cost almost $2,000 to replace or work on it. Nobody wanted to work on it either. I didn't have money. I decided I at least have to try something else--there was NO way I was going to continue to make it by hoofing or renting cars for very long. But I didn't give up or give in. You should NEVER feel sorry for yourself.

What did I do about the car? I fixed it MYSELF. After work and after long transit. I had a resourceful uncle with a few tools and lots of parts. But he didn't do the work, *I* did. It was dirty, confusing, complex. It took me a few weeks. I had to map out all the schematics for the vacuum lines. It was tedious. Bending, torquing, pulling, pushing. I spent hours after work and transit, failure after failure, pain and fatigue, because I realistically had no other choice.

 

I succeded. The feeling of the victory was unlike anything I ever had before. Able to drive what should have become scrap for 3 weeks. I gave it another 8 months to live. She died on me for the last time and I was crushed.

 

I guess you have never poured painstaking hours of your life into something. Then find later you can't breathe any more of your life back into it. So you could never understand the thrill of accomplishment.

 

I know it seems foolish to you: I bought another car by now--so what's the big deal???

 

The big deal: you never treasure something until you have poured some of your life into it only so it might last a little heile longer. You never know the loss you endure until your own work and toil dies on you. Frankly I am ready to do it again, and again if I must for my current car. The next. My home. Most things I have.

 

This is why America is what it is.

Work ethic is not something you just 'have' or get. It is YOU.

 

Ever wonder why grandpa got so upset at having to move from that little old house he built so long ago?

Ever wonder why people act like family has died when something of theirs is destroyed--namely something they built?

Ever wonder why someone gets depressed about having to go into retirement?

 

You might *know* why...but you have never truly *understood* it until you have ACHIEVED it.

The spirit of the working class.

 

Destined now to be at the leash of government.

 

None of this fundementally answered my question - whats the point. And for the record my course (which is for charity work) means I basically work from 7.30am till 9.00pm so please don't try lecturing me in working hard, it decidedly droll when you know nothing about me.

[Darth Avlectus]

You know there is a big massive hole in the mentality that we need to work for success - why?

 

Hole?

Well if you think something can come from nothing, that's your thing. Perhaps cheating is a viable alternative to you. Care to elaborate on what this HOLE might be?

 

Why work hard if it means nothing?

It means something. True it may only seem negligable in the larger scale, but we can make a difference here on our scale. Though I suspect you already realize that. Hard work is character and character is quality. It could mean nothing to you and most of the others people here, but means something to me.

 

Why put up with all the things you listed?

 

1) The spiderman gig in crawlspaces and attics? Enduring hour after hour of discomfort and tiring positions? Lugging heavy tools or vaccums around all the while? I did what others won't. There is something to be said for it.

2) The injuries sustained from nails and sheet metal in those clausterphobic areas? Minor scratches.

3) The ungrateful bitchy wife after a hard day's landscaping because her husband thought it might be a nice anniversary gift? He meant well. I can just laugh at the wife and put it back in her face.

4) Falling through ceilings and narrowly avoiding falling on saws or equipment? It happens, sometimes no matter how careful you are.

5) Chasing a cheapskate after cleaning his house? Any excuse he makes will be hollow and he's just a little bitch.

6) Getting zapped? Mmmhh. Not so bad after awhile. Actually you get a taste for it.

7) The power tripping boss who tried to assault his workers? He's nothing without us. Eventually he shut the F*** up. Assaults on workers wound up badly for him one way or another.

8) Competitors undercutting me? Clients get what they pay for. They realize that when it's too late and either a party has happened at their house, or something is mysteriously missing. Guess who they come crawling back to?

 

 

What is the point? What is the point of life?

You asked what the point of life is--so you're just as much at fault for tearing this open as I am for ranting.

In short, do your best always. Nobody can take that away from you.

 

 

Do those possessions really make you any happier?

 

Only in so much that they mean something significant to you, that they are fruits of your labor. Nothing wrong with that if they are not interfering with the rest of your life. Why give things away after that point? It's what a real man/woman does. You work charity-so I'd think you of all people would understand that. If you don't, I can try explaining it to you but I thought you didn't want people talking to you about your own job???

 

 

Does the better job really make you happy?

 

Define better job? More $$$?

In that I can put it back into my business and make more jobs and treat employees...well, far more reasonably? Improve services to the client? Yes. It is a way of provision that perpetuates more life--or at least better economy. It is something that can be improved upon instead of some one size fits all. With a cap, that would be denying me the opportunity.

 

In that I can take the money and run...apparently either to a private ivory tower or for office. No.

 

For ego and status, only temporarily at best, and the wrong reasons. NO.

 

More fulfilling job? If you have defined fulfillment first--then yes. If not defined, I can't say.

 

When you get that better car, are you content or do you now want another?? Personally I'm fine with one car thank you.

 

I ask this because, it ultimately if you think life is pointless then why bother working?

I don't believe I implied pointless. If it came off that way, I was trying to get at something and I guess I lost you along the way. Sorry for that. Just like you said I don't know you, you don't know me or my thoughts either.

I may not have found my calling, but my life is not pointless.

 

Life may be miserable and unchanging for a time, but you have the choice to make it better at some point.

 

Why work at all? Doing something is better than doing nothing and dwelling on the mysery. You just might find some way out.

 

If we are nothing but a genetic blip in the cosmic drama of the universe that is extinguished quickly why work hard?

 

 

I appreciate my country. I also try to see what I can do for it--on what scale I can affect. As opposed to just letting it coddle me with some check I didn't have to do jack S*** for.

 

My job may not be all that fulfilling, but someone has to do it.

Why do it well? Why not? Unlike 'just getting by' one gets a feeling of satisfaction from a job well done. You might be surprised how much difference it makes to oneself as well as all the other people. Say whatever you will, but you can't take that away either.

 

Nothing but a genetic blip? Perhaps we are, but just because you can't affect the whole universe (or even a noticable portion thereof), that isn't a good reason to just lay back like "screw it-I don't care".

 

Perhaps it is spiritual differences that seperate us. Mock that if you will.

 

Over too quickly? Life is short, but it ain't THAT short.

 

Why put up with it what I do?

The point is to get back up again. Why? If you can outlast them, you are not defeated. I continue to do my best. If clients have a legitimate point, I improve. If they are just OC whiners--fine. I do not think my life is pointless, or the toils futile. I hope I can inspire someone to see that one is not mindless to keep at it--whatever they do. I endure such crap is because I know ultimately they are all @$$holes. They are wrong. I am the better for it.

 

(I guess I don't mind the testosterone filled confrontations which occasionally turn into slugging fests either. Actually it's kind of refreshing.)

 

 

Charity work is good. Don't jinx your good karmah though.

 

At day's end, don't you rest easier knowing that you did the best you could possibly do? I'd think the hard laboring work on the outside quells the empty feeling inside. Isn't doing something to pull your weight better than cheating your way through, and ill gotteness?

 

It isn't that way for me for no reason or because I was indoctrinated/brainwashed into it as some might think. I decided it for myself.

 

I'll answer back after your reply to avoid making my post too much longer at a time. I have some answers I'd like to give.

[vanir]

I haven't been to these forums much in a long while and I do quite like this forum section of open ~intelligent~ discussion about a variety of topical subjects. I'm saddened it was forced to be closed recently and...

 

Firstly threatening a mod with violence is hardly smart :|

This gets a huge +1 from me.

Please, please don't spoil it for all the rest of us, people. Watch your post terms and structure, consider what you insinuate and the kind of discussion environment you're promoting.

 

Joke around sure, but add a smilie when making off hand comments so that people know it was fully intended without harm or genuine offense. I think you'll find many of the forum rules actually relate to statutes and regional legislation which can really be prosecuted under strict interpretations of law.

 

It is not just here that we have a responsibility to think about what we say, and what we mean by what we say, you'll find it is an adult responsibility of life in general, and good practise. As a former moderator for the science forum of a NASA geophysicist I can say it is sometimes merely a matter of keeping strict legal adherence to impose bans and close down/delete individual forums. Consider especially the current anti-terrorism climate regarding any kind of political discussion at public internet forums. Examine the statements of those successfully prosecuted for terrorist activity, many have no conception this is in fact what they were doing at the time. Interesting the way the law can work that way. Think, breathe, appreciate, speak might be a good rule.

 

btw, Jonathan7 I quite respect the talent of a mod to speak freely and imaginatively.

I found at times myself second guessing every word, it's not easy. Well done.

[Allronix]

First of all, I'd say the market as it is now stifles innovation. Where are the electric cars? the patents are bought up by the automakers, who will not build them.

 

Why is our infant mortality rate and life expectancy on par with the most impoverished of former Soviet states? Well, I'll point to the grave of a friend who died at age 32 because he could not afford antibiotics. He died of a treatable infection. I also say that our current health system stifles innovation, because it does not fund prevention, or funds it rather scantily. If there's a breakthrough new treatment, good luck getting it - you'll be paying the whole thing out of pocket because the insurance company won't be helping.

 

I've done the "working two jobs." I've also done manual labor (though, it was primarily janitorial work). I've even done full-time college and full-time school at the ssme time (wouldn't recommend it). But no matter how hard anyone works? Well, it's still a rat race, still a hamster wheel. The price of everything goes up, and your salary doesn't. You get the pride of a job well-done, but that pride doesn't pay your rent or fill your stomach.

[vanir]

wrt socialism vs capitalism. Stealing candy from babies is just good business, and it is also the dumbest possible thing to do.

 

 

So there you have it. Good business wins out in a free market society.

The supporting argument is that Communism just doesn't work in real life. But that's bull****. Stalinism doesn't work. Personality cults aren't any semblence to democracy. But socialist democracy has never been tried, not with the determinations of the Age of Enlightenment.

 

My take is we've known how to fix things for quite some time. Now just try to get your greedy child abusing neighbours to give it a shot...

[Darth Avlectus]

I know the point of my life.

Firstly threatening a mod with violence is hardly smart :|

When you hear me ask a question your blood boils, I was interested to hear your answer. My general experience of people is they don't have answers for why they think what they think - so I was intrigued to see if you could tell my why an individual should work hard...

[/Quote]

 

Forgive my incoherence, it was late. I forgot for a moment you're not that rehab-ite who needed to be put in his place earlier that day. Sorry 'bout that. I hear questions (like the ones you asked) from them, often times on the verge of physical violence. Please try to understand.

 

I think I gave it in the last. The only things I'd add are: Just because one is miserable doesn't mean it's right to spread the mysery. Mysery loves compnay, but ultimately it dirves everyone off. I'd advise whatever the mysery is, sort it out or take it someplace else. I gather you already got that one implicitly. Taking the low road should be a last resort.

(If I had any sense responding in kind should be too)

 

Again what is the point on climbing to the top of the heap or not? "So you must center yourself" - Please elaborate.

[/Quote]

 

It might be cool to get to the top of a trade or to claim status or something like that--but without your inner light it will never be complete. I was only trying to show I got you on the whole implication of materialism and how it might not necessarily make one happy. You already know the point of your life, which is crucial to centering. I have it in my head that people not centered wind up as either the pig at the top or the scum at the bottom. OR somewhere inbetween.

 

Why at some point do you need to be responsible for someone? [/-----n coherently I'd understand - I understand you implicitly for the record, I was interested to see if you knew why you think what you do.

[/Quote]

 

I guess it's just paternal instinct and how I was raised. Any guy can knock a woman up, but it takes a man to raise the child. Too many douchebags and harlots who run away and leave a child to grow up realizing that no matter how much he/she F***S off the rest of the world ...there is always some net to catch him/her at the bottom. Such contemptible behavior. "Why should I have to work when I get my check anyway? HAHA--no matter what, the tax payer has to support me." Yes, largely injustices I've seen. A coddling government that gives a living to a lazy ass: There are others in far greater need who could use that. Mental issues don't stop one from filing papers, using a broom, cleaning a highway, or picking fruits.

 

Yet others and I, don't qualify, so we must fend for ourselves or starve. I don't necessarily care about getting anything personally, but seeing this on the rise like the seagull flocks to freebies makes me sick. Hard working individuals make the world a better place. Not freeloaders.

 

Somehow, to me imparting responsibility to young before they get too caught up in their ways would be the right thing to do. Also, A real man/woman is a provider. A principled one who keeps his subjects beholden--rather than just giving away. Quality people can make the difference, if only on a small scale vicinity in their own town. Instead of faceless government with wards and paychecks. People building community. Perhaps spiritual family.

 

Sorry I saw you through my boot as one of those bums.

 

Why? [/Quote]

Care for those amongst you? Because it is the right thing to do.

Keep them beholden? It teaches responsibility. Hand out an apple to a girl, she takes and eats it; teach the girl to go find it for herself, she won't starve.

 

I resent a system that allows individuals to die because they can't afford health insurance. The right to receive health care should be free.

[/Quote]

 

For that much I agree. Especially when those dying are kept alive for money sake. Shame. I disagree with socialized medicine because of the 'no malpractice' thing in case a doctor is frivilous and/or botches something, or has a god complex. So I'm at a bit of a catch-22 on this.

 

The fact you don't like it still doesn't change the fact they are always because of human nature what capitalism ends up with.

[/Quote]

 

I was speaking more to the general crowd. And to Allronix to try to send the message, not all business owners and wealthy folks are necessarily and absolutely evil. I hear so much: "the man keepin me down" "Damn those rich folks". No, they won't just give you money. BUT They're not all these hogs with big briefcases.

 

I hardly ever hear about the contributions they make to charity, in the media at least. Contributions far surpassing anything most of us could make. Many wealthy folks do admire initiative enough to come up in person and ask them how they got what they have, where they are. If you can handle being told no or blown off some portion of the time, even some tastelessness, you get lots of valuable secrets and information. It may not change the fact that greedy pigs will be what they are. However if we start putting in cap laws it will be a double edged sword that may come back to haunt us. Getting rid of that will be very difficult. Again, there is no real way of assuring the redistribution would tilt towards the people at large. The government would take a sizable slice as well. More sizable, I suspect once enabled with that power, than less. I should like to point out that we have a voice and power of votes as is. We have auditing, and the courts. Before deciding to let government dictate wages to us in total, we ought to (while we still have power to do some kicking out) make our case and get them to start enforcing existing laws again.

 

First of all, I'd say the market as it is now stifles innovation. Where are the electric cars? the patents are bought up by the automakers, who will not build them. [/Quote]

 

True.

 

Well, I believe there is now a Tesla motors in northern California. What they are doing is making all the extravagant stuff first and getting the rich to foot their economy, before the econo model is released for the general population.

If it's sustainable, that's a good thing--I don't have to explain that to you, obviously.

 

However, a proposition that would have put a solar electric/heat power plant out in the desert there was shot down largely because the sierra club and few front groups who are monop.-minons opposed it. That and the opponents made it sound like a little regulation to independent companies as well as straighten out monpoly power companies and force them to follow suit in part was going to kill everyone. As to why this got shot down, I am baffled.

 

They can't hold on forever. It may not be fast, but there is progress being made. I think an initiative passed in CA to give a bonus help to people willing to buy these new 'efficient' products.

 

Why is our infant mortality rate and life expectancy on par with the most impoverished of former Soviet states? Well, I'll point to the grave of a friend who died at age 32 because he could not afford antibiotics. He died of a treatable infection.

[/Quote]

 

I'd also like a look into a link between abortion and breast cancer if you don't mind. Though it is perfectly the woman's choice.

 

I say our current health system stifles innovation, because it doesn't fund prevention, or funds it rather scantily. If there's a breakthrough new treatment, good luck getting it - you'll be paying the whole thing out of pocket because the insurance company won't be helping.

[/Quote]

 

Agreed. However, we'd only get maybe a 5 year surge of noticeable change. Then we'd spend a lot longer fighting it because the beauraucratic red tape piles on and takes over much in the same way as insurance administation is now. The difference is it would be the government, and last I checked, you can't sue the government and win. Unless I've missed something.

 

I've done the "working two jobs." I've also done manual labor (though, it was primarily janitorial work). I've even done full-time college and full-time school at the ssme time (wouldn't recommend it). But no matter how hard anyone works? Well, it's still a rat race, still a hamster wheel. The price of everything goes up, and your salary doesn't. You get the pride of a job well-done, but that pride doesn't pay your rent or fill your stomach.

 

Have you exausted all options? If not, I'd suggest you try. If you have, then I guess your case is legit--but I don't know. Favors and trading work might help (if you're not nailed down as is). I have no health insurance, but I trade with my dentist. That's better than nothing.

 

Times I have starved, I talked to managers of stores and restaurants and traded. It may not be great, but that helps for food. It might help with the landlord. Admittedly, many city folks do not have the option I do, to go and pick fruit in the fields or home grow. I'm sorry if that is your situation.

 

Bless you.

[vanir]

Forgive my interjection, GTA:SWcity however I fear I must advise a slight lack of appreciative endeavour upon merely one point in particular.

 

Mental issues don't stop one from filing papers, using a broom, cleaning a highway, or picking fruits.

I've had some experience with this and should say, yes it does. Mental issues are in fact medical, and physical. The reason why you have a mental problem with picking up a broom is because it reminds you so much of the time you got beaten almost to death for eight years straight with a broom handle that you literally have physical responses you can't seem to do anything about, and they're terribly upsetting. You wee your pants in public. Your left pupil dilates like a shotglass. You start having a Turettes fit like it was going out of fashion and don't even notice until somebody points it out.

 

Mental issues are physical in nature, and cannot be treated by simply changing your attitude with a bit of how'dy do and suck a fart. Hence they are strict medical illnesses.

 

 

...seeing this on the rise like the seagull flocks to freebies makes me sick.

It is supposed to make you sick. It means the current system is inadequate. Don't shoot the messenger, think of the general public, who can't seem to think for themselves as messengers.

 

I was speaking more to the general crowd. And to Allronix to try to send the message, not all business owners and wealthy folks are necessarily and absolutely evil.

You'll need to be more specific, but in generalisation, oh yes they are.

 

Here's a point, the "word" evil is in fact, as was designed to be a bastardisation of the word "live." It means you live backwards, ie. are dangerous to productive ideologies. It doesn't mean you have horns and a tail, it means you interpret right as wrong and wrong as right, because you just do and that is a serious issue. It means you call child abuse, caring. You call assault, expression. You call murder, justified behaviour. It means you forget what it is you are doing for some backwards terminology of the description.

 

It has long been said much of evil is its ignorance.

[Allronix]

GTA:

 

First of all, I did earn a Bachelor's degree and have a tech support job. I was one of the lucky ones - I got out of poverty. I'm also lucky in that I have no debt, a 401K, and modest savings. Most Americans aren't that lucky. I am also fortunate in that I have only two cats to support, and not two-legged kids. My job, such as it is, does cover my bills. However, due to layoffs, outsourcing, and other decisions made at the top, I'm working for about $4/hr less than I was a year ago for the same work. Worse, I can't "vote with my feet" to another company, as their salaries are even lower.

 

I've never forgotten those days of long hours, the month where there was nothing to eat but pretzels (not just for me, but for two of my sisters and my then-eight-year-old niece) feet so sore I could barely walk, sleeping in people's closets, and feeling sick all the time. My hands have permanant damage, which is another reminder. "The free market will make it all better" and "you must be not working hard enough/not trying/morally inferior" lines get me seeing red. Folks can and have worked themselves dead.

 

Things may be ok now, but I'm all too aware of how precarious that can be. I barely escaped a layoff a month ago. Fifty co-workers didn't. Six months before that, the company I worked for had their biggest client tank in the stock market, and I was shown the door. Three months before that, the job I had for seven years shut their doors to rebuild in places with cheap labor.

 

Regarding the abortion/breast cancer link, the National Cancer Institute says that there isn't a proven link. However, we do have a higher mortality rate, especially among the working poor part because of (guess what) lack of insurance and ability to pay for screening until it's too late.

[vanir]

Allronix, you have many good things to say. Therefore I am now curious. Being at the heart of the (American) matter, what can be done to help? How can this be fixed?

[Allronix]

First order of business would be a serious audit of the defense contractors. War profiteering used to be a hanging offense, now it's accepted practice.

 

And while it may be looked upon as isolationist, we should definitely look at letting our allies cover more of the defense burden.

 

Second, a look at corporate welfare and the tax codes. We should not be rewarding with tax breaks megacorps that put our jobs overseas. For that matter, close up those tax loopholes so that the large businesses pay their share. In the 60's, corporate taxes made up about 40% of federal income. Now, most of the largest companies pay no tax at all. And while China puts massive tariffs on our goods, we let them dump cheap and poisonous crap on our shores. Levying an equal tariff may convince our partner to lower it or convince companies to not use their sweatshops.

 

Third, big investments in infrastructure. Our hospitals are decaying, our bridges are falling apart, the roads have massive potholes, the schools are overcrowded, and we STILL have Katrina survivors living like refugees. This ties into point #1, as we can't be the world's enforcer while our backyard falls apart.