Israeli/Palestinian Conflict MEGATHREAD

[jrrtoken]

I saw a newsclip a few nights back where Isreal voiced concern over Obama. There was talk about how Isreal is insecure with Obama's abilities. Isreal may feel as though our new president will not support their efforts; thus, they took a preemtive strike to remove Hamas. Gaza strip was handed over to Palestine as a act of peace. Palestine ended up using it as a tool to strike into Isreal. Hamas came in and took it from both sides. I'm not surprised this has happend. You can only be poked so many times until there is a reaction.

For God's sake, please don't drag Obama into this, he has little to do with Israel's decision to strike Gaza. Israel had been planning this attack for months, not just several weeks.

[Yar-El]

Which does not excuse this attack. Israel blew up 230+ people, not soldiers, not paramilitary, not terrorists, just random people.

 

The same holds true for Palestine, you cannot expect them to do nothing when Israel doesn't give a damn who they kill.

Isreal is tired of being bossed around, and the death toll keeps pilling up. I don't see any other course of action. They are a democracy surounded by terrorist states. Does this excuse 230+ civilian deaths? Pull some reality into the mix. How many civilians has Palestine killed over the years? They are both guilty of killing civilian; nevertheless, something had to break the cycle. One way or another this has to end. Diplomacy was not working out.

 

For God's sake, don't drag Obama into this, he has little to do with Israel's decision to strike Gaza. Israel had been planning this attack for months, not just several weeks.

You have to pay attention to the news. Obama is not directly responsible for anything; however, it doesn't mean others don't have a problem with him.

[mimartin]

It's all Obama fault AGAIN. Please explain why Israel practiced preemptive strikes in the 80s, 90s and 2000s under Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush. Is someone in the Israeli government clairvoyant and knew back in the 80s that we would one day elected Obama president?

 

Israel practices this procedure because they believe it give themselves the best chance of remaining secure. I happen to disagree.

 

What else can we blame on Obama? I broke a shoelace today. I suppose that is some how his fault too.

[Yar-El]

It's all Obama fault AGAIN. Please explain why Israel practiced preemptive strikes in the 80s, 90s and 2000s under Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush. Is someone in the Israeli government clairvoyant and knew back in the 80s that we would one day elected Obama president?

 

Israel practices this procedure because they believe it give themselves the best chance of remaining secure. I happen to disagree.

 

What else can we blame on Obama? I broke a shoelace today. I suppose that is some how his fault too.

 

For God's sake, please don't drag Obama into this, he has little to do with Israel's decision to strike Gaza. Israel had been planning this attack for months, not just several weeks.

 

Everyone is missing the whole point. Scan over my posts again so you don't make a false accusation.

[jrrtoken]

What else can we blame on Obama? I broke a shoelace today. I suppose that is some how his fault too.

Obama wanted to bring jobs back to the U.S. from third-world countries, therefore, Nike wanted its sweatshop workers to labor harder before they actually have to pay American workers a reasonable salary. The eight-year-old boy in Pakistan who was fitting the plastic tip on your lace did it poorly due to increased production. Therefore, Obama is undermining our own feet, the cornerstone of human productivity.

[Yar-El]

Obama wanted to bring jobs back to the U.S. from third-world countries, therefore, Nike wanted its sweatshop workers to labor harder before they actually have to pay American workers a reasonable salary. The eight-year-old boy in Pakistan who was fitting the plastic tip on your lace did it poorly due to increased production. Therefore, Obama is undermining our own feet, the cornerstone of human productivity.

You folks are not paying attention. You have to read posts carefully.

[mimartin]

No, it attempts to make Obama look bad.

 

On the Israeli part, Obama is merely an excuse and a terrible one at that. No matter who the U.S. President is, they will support Israeli. Especially if he/she wants a second term in office.

[jrrtoken]

You folks are not paying attention. You have to read posts carefully.

And I was. I'm saying that there is no way that Obama has anything to do with Israel's strike in Gaza. They've been doing this for decades, and with our weapons, they can.

 

For example, in 1981, France was helping Iraq build a nuclear reactor. Now, Israel assumed that this was for the procurement of plutonium for nuclear weapons, however, it could've just been for peaceful purposes. Well, Israel didn't really care about what the reactor was being used for, so they simply bombed it, without any warning in advance. Now, that's pretty damn devious of Israel to do that, and although Iraq was being led by Hussein, who would later kill many more innocent civilians, it doesn't just allow Israel to barge into any other country and impose their beliefs on it. Hm... just like the U.S.

[Yar-El]

No, it attempts to make Obama look bad.

 

On the Israeli part, Obama is merely an excuse and a terrible one at that. No matter who the U.S. President is, they will support Israeli. Especially if he/she wants a second term in office.

I don't think its a attempt to make him look bad. I do however see this as a legit concern on Isreal's behalf. Its has to do with where you live in the world, and how that affects your views from the other side. You and I can live in the US under any president; however, people on the other side of the world can have a different tolerance. Isreal views Obama as a very inexperienced president. We know he is not experienced in foreign policy; nevertheless, US citizens lax a blind eye to give him a opportunity. We don't see the world through Isreal's eyes.

 

And I was. I'm saying that there is no way that Obama has anything to do with Israel's strike in Gaza. They've been doing this for decades, and with our weapons, they can.

I'm on your side. Obama didn't do anything directly. This war has been going on for years. They just don't have faith in our next president. I'm certain it has happend sometime in the past as well. Different president but similar conditions.

 

*** Edit ***

 

We learned about Obama's parental connection to Islam. We also learned Obama became a Christian through educational exposure. U.S. citizens can live knowing the unorthodox cards that have been played; however, what and how does the world view Obama's past? Does Isreal and Palestine have the tolerance to play diplomacy with Obama? I can't answer these questions. We have to wait and see how the world changes. Isreal's actions can be taken as a light precursor to events yet to unfold.

 

How does the world view a United States president who has experience with Islamic and Christian traditions? Will this cause insecurity to be felt around the world? Will this make other countries change their stance with us? I don't have enough political science knowledge to answer these questions. I don't think anyone here does.

[mimartin]

Isreal views Obama as a very inexperienced president. We know he is not experienced in foreign policy; nevertheless, US citizens lax a blind eye to give him a opportunity. We don't see the world through Isreal's eyes.

First off, you know nothing of me or how I view the world beyond what I post here. You don’t know about the tattoos on my Great Uncle and Aunt’s arms. You may not even know the meaning of those tattoos. You don’t know where they lived from 1976 until their deaths in the late 80’s. Does not mean I understand what the people of Israel have been though, but it does mean I care about Israel.

 

Second, Obama is not the first president to lack experience. George W Bush had absolutely no experience beyond being Texas governor (which means he had no experience). The Lieutenant Governor runs the show in Texas. Which explains how Texas has survived the last two idiots we had in the office of Governor. Beyond pardons and appointments, the Governor of Texas is a figurehead and nothing more (Explains why my aspiration in High School was to be the Governor of Texas). Of course, in fairness to Israel, if the last President with little (no experience) is any indication of how things will be handled in the Middle East, they may want to primitive the entire region into glass.

[Achilles]

You can only be poked so many times until there is a reaction.

Funny, that's what the Palestinians say too.

[Yar-El]

Funny, that's what the Palestinians say too.

Its a endless cycle. Peace settles in for a brief moment, and then all hell breaks loose from a twitch. One sneeze sets everything off. Its a horrible way to live.

 

First off, you know nothing of me or how I view the world beyond what I post here. You don’t know about the tattoos on my Great Uncle and Aunt’s arms. You may not even know the meaning of those tattoos. You don’t know where they lived from 1976 until their deaths in the late 80’s. Does not mean I understand what the people of Israel have been though, but it does mean I care about Israel.

I keep forgetting people from around the world visit here. I do have sympathy for anyone who lives in such harsh conditions. My apology for making a fast assumption. How long did they live in Isreal?

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

I saw a newsclip a few nights back where Isreal voiced concern over Obama. There was talk about how Isreal is insecure with Obama's abilities. Isreal may feel as though our new president will not support their efforts; thus, they took a preemtive strike to remove Hamas. Gaza strip was handed over to Palestine as a act of peace. Palestine ended up using it as a tool to strike into Isreal. Hamas came in and took it from both sides. I'm not surprised this has happend. You can only be poked so many times until there is a reaction.

• gaza was given to the palestinians, however israel cut off gaza from shipments of food, water, and electricity, that being said, attacking israel is the obvious logical progression for hamas
  
• as i said before, ISRAEL BROKE THE CEASEFIRE, NOT HAMAS

 

Isreal is tired of being bossed around, and the death toll keeps pilling up. I don't see any other course of action. They are a democracy surounded by terrorist states. Does this excuse 230+ civilian deaths? Pull some reality into the mix. How many civilians has Palestine killed over the years? They are both guilty of killing civilian; nevertheless, something had to break the cycle. One way or another this has to end. Diplomacy was not working out.

• israel bosses others around, you seem to be confused
  
• 237, versus 4781 palestinians killed by the israelis since 2000, roughly 1/4 of them were actually involved in conflict and another 1/4 were kids.

[Yar-El]

• gaza was given to the palestinians, however israel cut off gaza from shipments of food, water, and electricity, that being said, attacking israel is the obvious logical progression for hamas
  
• as i said before, ISRAEL BROKE THE CEASEFIRE, NOT HAMAS

Who should be responsible for the Palestinians? Israel or Palastine? Why should Israel grant food, water, and electricity to a foreign nation when their own government should take up responsibility?

[Jae Onasi]

There's been fighting in and around Israel for the last 5000 years. Anyone who thinks either side is going to back down soon does not understand the deep-seated, utter hatred these people-groups have for each other. The world can exert all the pressure we want on Arab and Israeli groups, but until they actually want to sit down and really talk it out instead of getting ticked off about stupid things like who sits where at a table, the fighting is never going to end. Who's right? Neither side. They're killing each other. Who's wrong? Both sides. Neither will do the give-and-take required to resolve the conflict. Until one side unilaterally sets the weapons down, they're always both going to be in the wrong, I don't care who's done what to whom.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Who should be responsible for the Palestinians? Israel or Palastine? Why should Israel grant food, water, and electricity to a foreign nation when their own government should take up responsibility?

first off, do you not understand the phrase "cut off"? second, the palestinians elected hamas (since a large portion of their operations are humanitarian in nature) a while back then israel threw a hissy fit and incited a civil war between hamas and fatah.

[Yar-El]

There's been fighting in and around Israel for the last 5000 years. Anyone who thinks either side is going to back down soon does not understand the deep-seated, utter hatred these people-groups have for each other. The world can exert all the pressure we want on Arab and Israeli groups, but until they actually want to sit down and really talk it out instead of getting ticked off about stupid things like who sits where at a table, the fighting is never going to end. Who's right? Neither side. They're killing each other. Who's wrong? Both sides. Neither will do the give-and-take required to resolve the conflict. Until one side unilaterally sets the weapons down, they're always both going to be in the wrong, I don't care who's done what to whom.

I absolutely agree with your comments. Most of the wars are biblical territory disputes, right?

[GarfieldJL]

Which does not excuse this attack. Israel blew up 230+ people, not soldiers, not paramilitary, not terrorists, just random people.

 

So you're saying it's Israel's fault that Hamas uses civilians as human shields, also the UN is practically the worst source to get anything from when it comes to Israel.

 

The same holds true for Palestine, you cannot expect them to do nothing when Israel doesn't give a damn who they kill.

 

Okay I'm guessing you're using the United Nations as a source, and they aren't exactly a valid source when it comes to Israel. Fact is this moral equivalency argument doesn't hold any water whatsoever.

 

• Fact: Hamas has fired approximately 6,000 rockets into Israel if I remember correctly from the news today. The fact that either Hamas has extremely bad aim or the hand of God is protecting the Israelis is besides the point.
  
• Fact: Civilians being killed on accident when trying to hit terrorists that are hiding behind civilians is not even remotely equivalent to the evil of strapping bombs to kids and having them go into crowded market places and blowing the kids up via remote. Or having a suicide bomber blow themselves up in a pizza parlor.
  
• Fact: Hamas won't even accept Israel's right to exist, they won't be satisfied until the Israeli people are annihilated.
  
• Fact: Hamas used this last cease fire to sneak in a bunch of weapons including the rockets they've been shooting off.
  
• Fact: Using civilians as human shields is a war crime.
  

 

To sum it up there is no equivalency, Israel in this situation is in the right.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

So you're saying it's Israel's fault that Hamas uses civilians as human shields, also the UN is practically the worst source to get anything from when it comes to Israel.

 

 

 

Okay I'm guessing you're using the United Nations as a source, and they aren't exactly a valid source when it comes to Israel. Fact is this moral equivalency argument doesn't hold any water whatsoever.

 

• Fact: Hamas has fired approximately 6,000 rockets into Israel if I remember correctly from the news today. The fact that either Hamas has extremely bad aim or the hand of God is protecting the Israelis is besides the point.
  
• Fact: Civilians being killed on accident when trying to hit terrorists that are hiding behind civilians is not even remotely equivalent to the evil of strapping bombs to kids and having them go into crowded market places and blowing the kids up via remote. Or having a suicide bomber blow themselves up in a pizza parlor.
  
• Fact: Hamas won't even accept Israel's right to exist, they won't be satisfied until the Israeli people are annihilated.
  
• Fact: Hamas used this last cease fire to sneak in a bunch of weapons including the rockets they've been shooting off.
  
• Fact: Using civilians as human shields is a war crime.
  

 

To sum it up there is no equivalency, Israel in this situation is in the right.

fact: israel has probably dropped around 6000 tons of explosives on gaza by now and unlike the rockets hamas is firing that have designs that are decades old, the israelis can actually aim them since they get some of the most advanced weapons in the world from the u.s.

fact: israel bombed civilian targets <snipped>

fact: that probably has something to do with israel razing palestinian cities and towns and massacring palestinian civilians (you probably ignored it in the other thread but the israelis themselves convicted ariel sharon of war crimes)

fact: ISRAEL BROKE THE CEASEFIRE

fact: murdering civilians en masse is a war crime as well

 

to sum it up: you're wrong, israel broke the ceasefire and started this conflict and their heavy handed actions will extend it.

[mimartin]

How long did they live in Isreal?

They lived in Bay City, Texas from 1946 until 1976. They moved to Israel in November of 1976. My Aunt died (natural causes) in 1989. I’m unsure of my Uncle as I don’t really remember him as he was not the friendliest of persons (at least to a kid at the time). Would loved to have understood at the time what they went though. I may have been nicer to them both. Never really figured out the logistic of how they were really related to me. I assume they were really cousin, but at that time, a child either had to call adults Mr. or Mrs. sir name or Aunt and Uncle to use their first names. Still call most of my elderly cousins by Aunt or Uncle.

[GarfieldJL]

fact: israel has probably dropped around 6000 tons of explosives on gaza by now and unlike the rockets hamas is firing that have designs that are decades old, the israelis can actually aim them since they get some of the most advanced weapons in the world from the u.s.

 

I'm going to guess you didn't take into account the fact that Hamas is deliberately hiding behind civilians when they are firing those rockets. Smart munitions are relatively accurate but they aren't so accurate that you can snipe someone from several hundred feet in the air in a fighter jet...

 

fact: israel bombed civilian targets <snipped>

 

 

fact: that probably has something to do with israel razing palestinian cities and towns and massacring palestinian civilians (you probably ignored it in the other thread but the israelis themselves convicted ariel sharon of war crimes)

 

Isn't Ariel Sharon deceased? Anyways, if Israel wanted to, they could level every city, town, and village in Gaza. It would be a heck of a lot cheaper to do than the cost of all the smart munitions they're using trying to hit the people shooting off the rockets in the first place.

 

fact: ISRAEL BROKE THE CEASEFIRE

 

Didn't Israel go into Gaza partially because Hamas wasn't doing anything to stop rockets being fired into Israel from inside Gaza?

 

fact: murdering civilians en masse is a war crime as well

 

Israel isn't gunning for civilians though, they are trying to hit the terrorists whom are firing rockets into Israel. Fact is it's kinda hard to do so without civilian casualties if their launch site is say a daycare where the kids are still having classes (just an example to illustrate the point)...

 

to sum it up: you're wrong, israel broke the ceasefire and started this conflict and their heavy handed actions will extend it.

 

Hamas wasn't technically honoring the cease fire in the first place though, while they supposedly weren't firing rockets into Israel a bunch of other groups were doing various attacks on Israel, hence Israel finally said enough is enough. Fact is there is a lot less violence between Israel and the Palestinians in the West Bank.

 

Interview on Fox News that is of interest:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,473444,00.html#

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

I'm going to guess you didn't take into account the fact that Hamas is deliberately hiding behind civilians when they are firing those rockets. Smart munitions are relatively accurate but they aren't so accurate that you can snipe someone from several hundred feet in the air in a fighter jet...

they dropped bombs on civilian targets.

 

Isn't Ariel Sharon deceased? Anyways, if Israel wanted to, they could level every city, town, and village in Gaza. It would be a heck of a lot cheaper to do than the cost of all the smart munitions they're using trying to hit the people shooting off the rockets in the first place.

he's in a coma, but that's beside the point.

 

Didn't Israel go into Gaza partially because Hamas wasn't doing anything to stop rockets being fired into Israel from inside Gaza?

you're making my point for me, that they bombed civilians for the actions of extremists within hamas.

 

Israel isn't gunning for civilians though, they are trying to hit the terrorists whom are firing rockets into Israel. Fact is it's kinda hard to do so without civilian casualties if their launch site is say a daycare where the kids are still having classes (just an example to illustrate the point)...

bombed civilian targets(x1000)

 

dunno how many times i have to say it

 

Hamas wasn't technically honoring the cease fire in the first place though, while they supposedly weren't firing rockets into Israel a bunch of other groups were doing various attacks on Israel, hence Israel finally said enough is enough. Fact is there is a lot less violence between Israel and the Palestinians in the West Bank.

yes, enough is enough.

 

*bombs innocent people for the actions of others who were only standing up for their right to not be starved to death by israel*

 

 

e: lol your own source sides with me

 

November 2008: Palestinians resume rocket and mortar fire into Israel after Israeli incursion.

 

also incursion means "killed a couple of people"

[GarfieldJL]

they dropped bombs on civilian targets.

 

So you're trying to hide the fact that Hamas deliberately sets up its rocket launch sites near schools to maximize the chances of civilian casualties?

 

he's in a coma, but that's beside the point.

 

Then why bring him up if he isn't a factor in this?

 

you're making my point for me, that they bombed civilians for the actions of extremists within hamas.

 

No, I'm not making your point because after the Israeli ground incursion they used that as an excuse to start shooting more rockets off only this time it was the main part of Hamas. During the cease fire they had also been sneaking in rockets for something like this.

 

bombed civilian targets(x1000)

 

So you're saying it's Israel's fault that Hamas uses schools filled with children as launching platforms for their rockets.

 

dunno how many times i have to say it

 

 

yes, enough is enough.

 

*bombs innocent people for the actions of others who were only standing up for their right to not be starved to death by israel*

 

That's a laugh, seriously Israel has not restricted shipments of food, they have required everything going in to be searched though for good reason.

 

e: lol your own source sides with me

 

No, he does not side with you, he had to play devils advocate in interest of being fair and balanced. And the timeline is just a gross simplification of what happened and not necessarily everything that happened.

 

 

also incursion means "killed a couple of people"

 

An incursion doesn't mean you killed anyone, and what was left out was why they went into Gaza in the first place. Seriously painting it that the Israelis having nothing to do that day decided to drive into Gaza with tanks makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Fox News was giving a simplified timeline nothing more. I suggest you watch the video I posted.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

So you're trying to hide the fact that Hamas deliberately sets up its rocket launch sites near schools to maximize the chances of civilian casualties?

gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world <snipped>

Then why bring him up if he isn't a factor in this?

an example of israel's actions against the palestinians and how little they care about palestinian civilian deaths

 

No, I'm not making your point because after the Israeli ground incursion they used that as an excuse to start shooting more rockets off only this time it was the main part of Hamas. During the cease fire they had also been sneaking in rockets for something like this.

yep, the israelis only killed some palestinians no reason for the ceasefire to be broken.

 

That's a laugh, seriously Israel has not restricted shipments of food, they have required everything going in to be searched though for good reason.

i return your chuckles to you sir (because you are wrong).

 

No, he does not side with you, he had to play devils advocate in interest of being fair and balanced. And the timeline is just a gross simplification of what happened and not necessarily everything that happened.

so you're own source is what you say it is even if it's contrary to what's posted? interesting.

 

An incursion doesn't mean you killed anyone, and what was left out was why they went into Gaza in the first place. Seriously painting it that the Israelis having nothing to do that day decided to drive into Gaza with tanks makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Fox News was giving a simplified timeline nothing more. I suggest you watch the video I posted.

only they did kill people in their incursion. and it does make sense because the israeli government consists of hardline militants who consider genocide a valid military option.

[Achilles]

There's been fighting in and around Israel for the last 5000 years.

Yes, but the current iteration of Israel has only been around for 60 years.

 

Can we just point out the elephant in the room and note that if we offered to give each of these groups one of the Dakotas if they would call it off, neither would take us up on it? This whole thing is over who gets to have pissing rights to Jerusalem.