Kreia Vs Palpatine?

[RedHawke]

Some tidbits...

 

Anyone with knowledge of how to drain life energy can stand up to and resist the draining attacks of someone like Nihilus, the rarity of said knowledge is why Nihilus seemed so unstoppable. I do recall that Drain Life Energy was one of Palapatine's listed powers.

 

The Force Storm would likely be absorbed by Nihilus, and even if the Ravager was destroyed Nihilus would likely survive. Again, powerful Force users are just food for Vampires.

Incorrect it would destroy him... you can't absorb a Force Storm FYI. Vampire or not that powers manifestation can destroy anything it touches, even the conjurer if they lose concentration.

[Darth Avlectus]

Supposition: I wonder if Vaapad could reflect Force Drain back. That would mean Mace>Nihilius. Otherwise bye-bye mace.

 

@ thread: I'd go with kreia b/c she was all that much closer to the original sith. Palpatine may have been a culmination of a near millenium of Bane's order/dynasty but even that was only so close to the original sith.

[Totenkopf]

Palpatine was a Sith from the get-go so no Jedi background to hinder his badassery, however Kreia could be called the original Sidious or Precursor to Palpatine since did what Palps did one up by being directly under the hero's nose the entire time.

 

Perhaps, but Sidious was able to perform under the noses of the entire Jedi Council, undermine the Republic and control an army that defeated and drove hundreds to thousands of jedi to their deaths. Of course his arrogance proved to be his downfall in the end....

 

Since I'm not totally aware of all DI's talents vs Kreia's, I'll have to say undecided for now.

[Fredi]

As I said my vote was for Kreia, but that crazy witch wanted to destroy the force, I think she is stronger than Palpi, but provably I would support him on battle if I where a Sith

[Lord of Hunger]

Incorrect it would destroy him... you can't absorb a Force Storm FYI. Vampire or not that powers manifestation can destroy anything it touches, even the conjurer if they lose concentration.

Source?

 

From what we know about the Force, it is an energy field. This means that Force Powers are based upon a form of energy. Nihilus consumes any of that energy he comes across, so why would he not be able to consume a Force Storm?

 

However, I did not know that Drain Life was one of Palpatine's abilities. I'll have to check that out. Still, there is the problem of Nihilus' power magnitude and whether Palpatine could stand up to it. The Exile specifically won because she was another Wound like Nihilus (thus starving him) and she had Visas further stress Nihilus by disrupting their bond. The combination along with the fact that Nihilus was already pretty low on Jedi burgers was enough to defeat him, but barely. Something tells me the Galaxy was pretty dang lucky.

 

Obi-Wan: There is no luck, there is the Force.

Me: Shut up!

 

[Lord of Hunger uses Force Lightning to fry Obi-Wan.]

[Lord of Hunger has gain 100 Dark Side Points and has achieved Dark Side Mastery.]

[Canderis]

I agree with LoH and also if you think about it Revan was technically the chosen one too. He fits the description so therefor Krea also trained the chosen one. Kreia also killed more things in actual combat, Sidious ordered people to kill his enemies and the only people you actually see him kill are the jedi masters in EP3

[mikrex]

Palpatine could either out dual her, or just force lighting her to a crisp.

[GreyJediMaster]

here's a thought - what if they joined forces? obviously thats impossible, but between them, with the trayus core and the death star?

[RedHawke]

Source?

Dark Empire Comics / Dark empire Sourcebook for the D6 WEG RPG.

 

From what we know about the Force, it is an energy field. This means that Force Powers are based upon a form of energy.

From the sourcebook (Pp. 70)...

 

Effect: This power is perhaps the single most destructive Force power ever known. the Power allows the Jedi/Sith to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force. The power also allows limited control of these storms. Capable of creating annihilating vortexes, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off of worlds.

 

In the comic (Scene also reprinted in Sourcebook for RPG) it rends anything it touches, it consumes Palapatine and his SSD Eclipse and fleet when he loses control of his own storm.

 

Nihilus consumes any of that energy he comes across, so why would he not be able to consume a Force Storm?

Because it isn't life energy/living force type field it isn't comprised of what he feeds upon. It is a manifestation of pure rage and hate not life but a destructive death field.

 

Nihilus consumes life not death.

 

However, I did not know that Drain Life was one of Palpatine's abilities. I'll have to check that out.

It is according to most materials I have available...

[Lord of Hunger]

Dark Empire Comics / Dark empire Sourcebook for the D6 WEG RPG.

 

 

From the sourcebook (Pp. 70)...

 

Effect: This power is perhaps the single most destructive Force power ever known. the Power allows the Jedi/Sith to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force. The power also allows limited control of these storms. Capable of creating annihilating vortexes, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off of worlds.

 

In the comic (Scene also reprinted in Sourcebook for RPG) it rends anything it touches, it consumes Palapatine and his SSD Eclipse and fleet when he loses control of his own storm.

 

 

Because it isn't life energy/living force type field it isn't comprised of what he feeds upon. It is a manifestation of pure rage and hate not life but a destructive death field.

 

Nihilus consumes life not death.

But something causes it, and that something is the Force. Nihilus would essentially be able to consume the Force Energy that is starting it up.

 

However, I'd agree that once it was unleashed Nihilus might not survived...provided that Sidious can keep it targeted at him and not get consumed before hand.

It is according to most materials I have available...

Could you cite a few? I looked up Sidious on Wookiepedia (which is actually quite accurate and thorough) but I couldn't find Drain Life listed as one of his abilities.

 

To be honest, it doesn't even sound like an ability that fits his profile. When he wants someone dead, he just blasts them with Lightning, and when he wants someone to obey him, he uses Dominate Mind. He doesn't need to practice anything remotely close to Force Vampiricy to get what he wants. Kreia primarily used it because she gained a limited version of Nihilus' aggressive Vampiricy from loosing and regaining her connection to the Force, and secondarily for the purpose of showing people like the Jedi Masters what it means to loose the Force.

[RedHawke]

But something causes it, and that something is the Force. Nihilus would essentially be able to consume the Force Energy that is starting it up.

You are mis-interpreting what Nihilus can do here, he can't consume the dark side of the force or death, he feeds on life so he can't do what you think he does. He doesn't just gobble up all types of energy.

 

However, I'd agree that once it was unleashed Nihilus might not survived...provided that Sidious can keep it targeted at him and not get consumed before hand.

Nihilus isn't capable of creating a field of Force Harmony so being able to disrupt one such as Sidious is unlikely. It took both Luke and Leia together to interrupt Sidious.

 

Could you cite a few? I looked up Sidious on Wookiepedia (which is actually quite accurate and thorough) but I couldn't find Drain Life listed as one of his abilities.

The same aforementioned sourcebook, all subsequent writings of him in the RPG's and comics and the Dark Empire comics... see you have to have the ability to drain life to be able to Transfer your consciousness like he can do as it is a pre-requisite ability, one of many.

 

The Base Star Wars D6 RPG books stated that Palapatine possessed a vast array of Sith knowledge and powers, some unlisted as he has had decades to study and practice them. They added them as the EU pumped out stories.

 

To be honest, it doesn't even sound like an ability that fits his profile. When he wants someone dead, he just blasts them with Lightning, and when he wants someone to obey him, he uses Dominate Mind. He doesn't need to practice anything remotely close to Force Vampiricy to get what he wants. Kreia primarily used it because she gained a limited version of Nihilus' aggressive Vampiricy from loosing and regaining her connection to the Force, and secondarily for the purpose of showing people like the Jedi Masters what it means to loose the Force.

The Emperor is much more than you saw on film, while some of the EU drags it into the realms of impossibility the Emperor did use the people under him to fuel his power and he did enhance their abilities with his powers.

 

The ability of Drain Life Energy actually ties into the tale he tells Anaken about Darth Plageus, who had to know how to Drain Life Energy to sustain it. So he did have access to the power. If the prevalent theory of Plageus being Sidious master holds water.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Perhaps, but Sidious was able to perform under the noses of the entire Jedi Council, undermine the Republic and control an army that defeated and drove hundreds to thousands of jedi to their deaths. Of course his arrogance proved to be his downfall in the end....

 

Since I'm not totally aware of all DI's talents vs Kreia's, I'll have to say undecided for now.

 

And Kriea was able to manipulate all of the Exile's companions without the Exile knowing it. She clearly could hide it from the one she shared a Force bond with, which must means she's very clever at deception and manipulation.

 

I've voted for her because of how easily she took out three Jedi Masters. Luke and Leia may have been powerful, but they were not at all at the level of any of those masters when Palpatine was beaten by them. It was not a struggle at all for her, which is why I voted for her. If Palpatine just executed those four Jedi who confronted him, then I would lean in his direction. But he used a lightsaber and Windu actually beat him with his own lightning attacks. Not that powerful to me.

[rictus135]

Palpatine would win hands down. He was more powerful than Kreia and used the foce in a far greater variety of ways.

 

The three masters Kreia killed had all left the foce behind at least in part, in order to hide their presence from the Sith. They then exerted a significant amount energy to trap the Exile, forfitting their ability to defend themselves from Kreia.

 

Kreia used three lightsabers with her mind, but only at the heart of one of the most strongly darkside planets in the history of the galaxy! The trayus core is probably similar to (though perhaps not as powerful as) the Valley of the Jedi. It fed her powers, and expanded her abilities.

 

Kreia was able to hide her alignmment and use a form of force camoflauge, but Sion detected her and cut off her hand without breaking a sweat!

 

Palpatine clouded the force (the Shroud of the darkside) throughout the entire galaxy! More than that, he singlehandedly diminished the entire Jedi Orders ability to use the force.

 

Palpatine's skills in battle weren't directly tied to his abilities with the lightsaber. He used his powers to prevent the other Jedi Masters from sensing his actions. Kreia said that if you took the force away from a Jedi they would be like children, or something along those lines, that they depend on the force and if you gave them a lightsaber without it they would be useless. If you watch the Jed Masters in the movie, they are extremely awkward hardly even attempting to block Palpatines attacks. Windu and Yoda were powerful enough to break through this power, and when engaged in a duel both were more than a match for Palpatine. So any arguments about their skills with the lightsaber have little weight.

[Lord of Hunger]

You are mis-interpreting what Nihilus can do here, he can't consume the dark side of the force or death, he feeds on life so he can't do what you think he does. He doesn't just gobble up all types of energy.

Hmm...I will have to look that up. This aspect of our respective theories greatly depends on our understanding of what the Force is frankly made of. I will point out, however, that Yoda was able to absorb Force Lightning with no ill effects I'm aware of.

Nihilus isn't capable of creating a field of Force Harmony so being able to disrupt one such as Sidious is unlikely. It took both Luke and Leia together to interrupt Sidious.

I meant in terms of Nihilus using his Vampiricy on Sidious. The moment Sidious starts going Super Saiyan and preparing his Force Storm, his guard will be dropped and this would allow Nihilus to reach in and suck the life right out of him. And boy would he reach in, a Force User of that power would be a three course meal at best.

The same aforementioned sourcebook, all subsequent writings of him in the RPG's and comics and the Dark Empire comics... see you have to have the ability to drain life to be able to Transfer your consciousness like he can do as it is a pre-requisite ability, one of many.

Because? I don't understand the mechanic here. Drain Life is the ability to leech life energy from one person to another. Transfer Consciousness is the ability to move a spirit from one host to another.

The Base Star Wars D6 RPG books stated that Palapatine possessed a vast array of Sith knowledge and powers, some unlisted as he has had decades to study and practice them. They added them as the EU pumped out stories.

Well this implies that Drain Life would be among his abilities, though again Palpatine's character is contrary to the sort of persona that actively uses and expands upon that ability.

 

For one thing, wouldn't drain life help with the aging effect of other Dark Side abilities? Just speculating.

The Emperor is much more than you saw on film, while some of the EU drags it into the realms of impossibility the Emperor did use the people under him to fuel his power and he did enhance their abilities with his powers.

If so he'd be a living God, or at least on the scale of Nihilus in that regard. It would be like the Exile using her passive Vampiricy on 1,000,000 clones of each of her companions. 1 crew was enough to give her to power to take on Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia, the scale you (or rather the EU) are (is) suggesting for Palpatine would make invincible. However, it is not entirely implausible for him to have that level of access given that he used Battle Meditation on whole lot of people....

The ability of Drain Life Energy actually ties into the tale he tells Anaken about Darth Plageus, who had to know how to Drain Life Energy to sustain it. So he did have access to the power. If the prevalent theory of Plageus being Sidious master holds water.

Okay, this is also new: Midiclorian Manipulation requiring Drain Life? It would explain Plageus' downfall in the story....

Palpatine clouded the force (the Shroud of the darkside) throughout the entire galaxy! More than that, he singlehandedly diminished the entire Jedi Orders ability to use the force.

Wait, the Jedi Order could use the Force? That's news to me.

 

Just kidding. But seriously, using the Shroud of the Dark Side on that version of the Jedi Order is not difficult. They were already, for one, predisposed to blindness towards such a version of the Sith Order (supposedly they were constantly gearing up for another war with the long deceased Brotherhood of Darkness of Lord Kaan, just as KOTOR's Jedi were constantly addressing the defeated Sith Brotherhood of Exar Kun while the Mandalorians were ravaging the Galaxy and continued to do so as they were being crushed by Revan's Sith (who were fueled by both the might of the Infinite Empire and the teachings of Malachor and Korriban).

Palpatine's skills in battle weren't directly tied to his abilities with the lightsaber. He used his powers to prevent the other Jedi Masters from sensing his actions. Kreia said that if you took the force away from a Jedi they would be like children, or something along those lines, that they depend on the force and if you gave them a lightsaber without it they would be useless. If you watch the Jed Masters in the movie, they are extremely awkward hardly even attempting to block Palpatines attacks. Windu and Yoda were powerful enough to break through this power, and when engaged in a duel both were more than a match for Palpatine. So any arguments about their skills with the lightsaber have little weight.

Whether or not Windu was powerful enough to break through Palpatine's power is actually in the air. I, like many others, believe that Palpatine was deliberately loosing just to create the situation where Anakin could be shaped into Vader and also use fake evidence of a Jedi insurrection to establish the Galactic Empire.

 

As for Yoda, I have a feeling that Palpatine was toying with him as well, but not quite so much.

 

As for the other Jedi Masters, again they were anticipating Kaan's Sith, brutal Marauders, rather than Bane's Sith, beings of shadows. They were also probably preparing for other versions like Revan's Sith, endless armies marching by the will of a single brilliant strategist or a brutal overlord, Exar Kun's Sith, apprentices backstabbing Masters, or Naga Sadow's Ancient/True Sith, superior masters of the Force who had just experience a golden age and were fueled by their Dark Lord's battle mediation. The best preparation would have been against the Assassins of the Sith Triumvirate, because at least both they and Bane's Sith waged a war of secrecy and manipulation. It's all tactics, and excuse to compare the different awesome Sith factions.

[Trench]

Lord of Hunger made some excellent points on that one. Especially on how Palps was able to defeat the Jedi so easily. The old Jedi Order stayed pretty much the same throughout its lifetime. The Sith order changed many times in order to adapt. The Jedi refused to open themselves up to new philosophy and points of view.

[Ping]

Lord of Hunger, Yoda didn't necessarily absorb the lightning the same way Nihilius could absorb stuff. Yoda's version was more of an advanced way of deflecting Force powers.

[GreyJediMaster]

. Okay' date=' how is absorption, an advanced form of deflection?[/quote']

 

i dont think thats quite what he meant. When Yoda absorbed the lightning from Dooku and later Palpatine, he was using a technique that allowed him to accept it without it harming him, then channeling it back to its creator with his own force powers. Yoda is REALLY old, its probably an ancient technique forgotten by the time of ep 3. Besides, all Jedi have the cappability to use dark side powers, just they're not trained to. Of course they need to "have the dark side in them", but tbh, once theyve been shown, they can adapt.

 

[Darth_Yuthura]

Lord of Hunger made some excellent points on that one. Especially on how Palps was able to defeat the Jedi so easily. The old Jedi Order stayed pretty much the same throughout its lifetime. The Sith order changed many times in order to adapt. The Jedi refused to open themselves up to new philosophy and points of view.

 

So this is one thing that I would say leans more in Kreia's favor. She was the first one to use the Potentium theory of the Force and she was a Gray Jedi. Palps was but a dedicated darksider who really cheated his way to beat out Plageous, but never truly became that much greater.

 

Don't forget as well that Kreia beat three masters outside the Trayus core, so with that power, she'd be so much greater than she was on Dantooine. And I really don't believe that Palpatine allowed himself to be beaten by Windu for Anakin to act. Once you have characters getting excuses, that disrupts everything.

 

Otherwise, it would be that Star Trek ships are more powerful than SW because a ship the size of a star destroyer can destroy an entire planet. Just go on direct observations and don't presume one didn't do something or COULD have been able to do something... just say what they've actually done.

[Ping]

i dont think thats quite what he meant. When Yoda absorbed the lightning from Dooku and later Palpatine, he was using a technique that allowed him to accept it without it harming him, then channeling it back to its creator with his own force powers. Yoda is REALLY old, its probably an ancient technique forgotten by the time of ep 3. Besides, all Jedi have the cappability to use dark side powers, just they're not trained to. Of course they need to "have the dark side in them", but tbh, once theyve been shown, they can adapt.

 

 

That's exactly what I was trying to say.

 

Also, Darth Yuthura, Kreia may have beat three Jedi Masters, but how did she do it? She did it the wimpy way, by simply using some uber powered Drain Life (how else would they lose their presence in the Force?). Palpatine, on the other hand, killed three masters with one saber. That tells me Kreia was either a wimp, or too lazy to pull out a saber.

[RedHawke]

Hmm...I will have to look that up. This aspect of our respective theories greatly depends on our understanding of what the Force is frankly made of. I will point out, however, that Yoda was able to absorb Force Lightning with no ill effects I'm aware of.

One energy is not another and Yoda was actively absorbing/dissipating and channeling the lightning back, you implied Nihilus would "feed" off of it automatically... big difference. There is no 'automatic' when attacking something with the force, unless they are unprepared or not force sensitive.

 

The Living Force is essentially Life Energy (Yoda's own words).

The Dark Side is essentially Death Energy (Yoda's own words again).

 

Feeding upon another's Living Force like Nihilus does he would be at the minimum weakened to incapacitated, or simply incompatible if he tried to feed off of Dark Side energy.

 

I meant in terms of Nihilus using his Vampiricy on Sidious.

It isn't Vampiricy... not in the traditional sense... against someone who has such knowledge he would have to breach their defense to cause any sort of damage to the subject. Also Nihilus would be less effective in staving off the other party if their defense held because he would have to maintain concentration to keep his power 'up' so his attack would be automatic the next round.

 

The moment Sidious starts going Super Saiyan and preparing his Force Storm, his guard will be dropped and this would allow Nihilus to reach in and suck the life right out of him. And boy would he reach in, a Force User of that power would be a three course meal at best.

Your 'guard' would not be down... you can still take actions while you focus on creating or controlling the storm (pending your Concentration Skill, D6 game mechanic). While you do suffer penalties for having the power up... you can indeed still act, though with similar penalties as Nihilus would have above for maintaining the power in combat.

 

Because? I don't understand the mechanic here. Drain Life is the ability to leech life energy from one person to another. Transfer Consciousness is the ability to move a spirit from one host to another.

You must know the various ebbs and flows of energy to be able to master your own energy to keep it intact after death.

 

Requirements for Transfer Life: Absorb/Dissipate Energy, Accelerate healing, Control Pain, Detoxify Poison, Emptiness, Hibernation Trance, Reduce Injury, Remain Conscious, Resist Stun, Life Detection, Life Sense, Magnify Senses, Receptive Telepathy, Sense Force, Injure/Kill, Telekinesis, Farseeing, Projective Telepathy, Accelerate Another's Healing, Control Another's Pain, Feed On the Dark Side, Inflict Pain, Return Another To Consciousness, Transfer Force, Drain Life Essence, Affect Mind, Control Mind, Dim Another's Senses.

 

Well this implies that Drain Life would be among his abilities, though again Palpatine's character is contrary to the sort of persona that actively uses and expands upon that ability.

A Sith Lord such as Sidious would have many such capabilities or knowledge, while not used in his day to day actions he can have it in his 'aresenal' if needed. He also is noted to possess a plethora of other abilities.

 

For one thing, wouldn't drain life help with the aging effect of other Dark Side abilities? Just speculating.

Doesn't work like that... the power goes to you, is corrupted in doing so, to fuel your own power.

 

If so he'd be a living God, or at least on the scale of Nihilus in that regard. It would be like the Exile using her passive Vampiricy on 1,000,000 clones of each of her companions. 1 crew was enough to give her to power to take on Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia, the scale you (or rather the EU) are (is) suggesting for Palpatine would make invincible. However, it is not entirely implausible for him to have that level of access given that he used Battle Meditation on whole lot of people....

Well he was the last of the Sith Lords... so he had much knowledge at his disposal.

 

Okay, this is also new: Midiclorian Manipulation requiring Drain Life? It would explain Plageus' downfall in the story....

As said above you must know the various ebbs and flows of energy to be able to master things Plageus was stated to have mastered.

 

I'm not saying one is a shoe-in to beat the other, just your are discounting one party a whole bunch in your estimates.

 

i dont think thats quite what he meant. When Yoda absorbed the lightning from Dooku and later Palpatine, he was using a technique that allowed him to accept it without it harming him, then channeling it back to its creator with his own force powers.

Absorb/Dissipate Energy and Reflect/Channel Energy.

[Totenkopf]

And I really don't believe that Palpatine allowed himself to be beaten by Windu for Anakin to act. Once you have characters getting excuses, that disrupts everything. .

 

 

Given Palpatine's penchant for manipulation, I think the idea of his toying with Windu till Anakin showed up isn't nearly as unlikely as you'd believe, nor is it an excuse. Allowing Anakin to be party to Windu's death basically hastened his quickening to the darkside. Besides, Darth Sidious seemed to recover quite nicely for someone so "beaten down".

[Insignia_Enithma]

When Mace Windu, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto turned up to arrest Palpatine only one of them was truly capable of winning that fight, even with a slim chance and that was Windu. He had Vaapad, a technique putting him close to using the dark side (or it was a dark side technique I cannot remember).

 

Palpatine did infact get the jump on the Jedi Masters using his skill with a lightsaber to slay three of them before coming up against one of the bets duellists in history.

 

Not only this but Palpatine shrouded his dark side movements, and blinded the council to the force.

 

I am however a firm believer that allot of the power of the Jedi was lost over the years leading to the rise of Palpatine. With many of their teaching lost (especially some of their more ancient teachings during KotOR 2, as-well as just before it.)

 

Kreia, knew allot more then she ever let on, and we never truly saw her true power I think, it was only on Malachor that we truly began to see what she was, her clever use of Telekinetic Lightsaber Combat, the proof of her subtle manipulations and the death of three Jedi Masters by stripping the force away from them. She also like Palpatine hid her movements, even Atris, who had by the time she met the exile again had fallen to the dark side did not notice Kreia, it was only later that she realised who it was that was accompanying the Exile.

 

TBH, they are both powerful. But Kreia may know allot of ancient techniques and secrets that Palpatine himself did not have access to and so my opinion is Kreia would win.

[Darth Hord]

TBH, they are both powerful. But Kreia may know allot of ancient techniques and secrets that Palpatine himself did not have access to and so my opinion is Kreia would win.

 

 

This is very debatable, after all Palpatine had access to the Telos Holocron. (featured in the Jedi vs Sith guide) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telos_Holocron among others and in it there is an entire section of Palpatine talking about finding ancient sith knowledge, let alone what is in the Telos holocron itself.

[Lord of Hunger]

One energy is not another and Yoda was actively absorbing/dissipating and channeling the lightning back, you implied Nihilus would "feed" off of it automatically... big difference. There is no 'automatic' when attacking something with the force, unless they are unprepared or not force sensitive.

 

The Living Force is essentially Life Energy (Yoda's own words).

The Dark Side is essentially Death Energy (Yoda's own words again).

 

Feeding upon another's Living Force like Nihilus does he would be at the minimum weakened to incapacitated, or simply incompatible if he tried to feed off of Dark Side energy.

Now this I have to say is one of the most interesting commentaries I've seen so far on the nature of the Force. Rather than the sides of the Force being based upon abstract codes of morality, you are implying that essentially they are based upon the cycle of life and death. I'd find such a system much more preferable, although since life and death are closely interrelated it would essentially explain why the problem with the Jedi is stagnation and the problem with the Sith is self-destruction.

It isn't Vampiricy... not in the traditional sense... against someone who has such knowledge he would have to breach their defense to cause any sort of damage to the subject. Also Nihilus would be less effective in staving off the other party if their defense held because he would have to maintain concentration to keep his power 'up' so his attack would be automatic the next round.

 

Your 'guard' would not be down... you can still take actions while you focus on creating or controlling the storm (pending your Concentration Skill, D6 game mechanic). While you do suffer penalties for having the power up... you can indeed still act, though with similar penalties as Nihilus would have above for maintaining the power in combat.

You do make a good case here.

You must know the various ebbs and flows of energy to be able to master your own energy to keep it intact after death.

 

Requirements for Transfer Life: Absorb/Dissipate Energy, Accelerate healing, Control Pain, Detoxify Poison, Emptiness, Hibernation Trance, Reduce Injury, Remain Conscious, Resist Stun, Life Detection, Life Sense, Magnify Senses, Receptive Telepathy, Sense Force, Injure/Kill, Telekinesis, Farseeing, Projective Telepathy, Accelerate Another's Healing, Control Another's Pain, Feed On the Dark Side, Inflict Pain, Return Another To Consciousness, Transfer Force, Drain Life Essence, Affect Mind, Control Mind, Dim Another's Senses.

Since I only read these things off of Wookiepedia, I have never seen this list. It is quite extensive.

A Sith Lord such as Sidious would have many such capabilities or knowledge, while not used in his day to day actions he can have it in his 'aresenal' if needed. He also is noted to possess a plethora of other abilities.

Quite powerful. However, I would point out in the spirit of the original topic that Kreia not only had access to both many of the same Sith teachings that Palpatine did and many of the elite teachings of the Jedi, but ALSO the teachings of Malachor V. Only the following individuals besides her had access to the lessons of the Trayus Academy:

 

Darth Nihilus

Darth Sion

Darth Revan

Sith Assassins of the Sith Triumvirate

The Jedi Exile and her companions

The True Sith

 

Since Nihilus and Sion died with the Assassins, Revan is presumably dead, and the Exile and her companions likely never used them since canon dictates they chose the light, only the True Sith Empire would still be able to pass on those teachings. Somehow the likelihood of Palpatine gaining access to that advantage is very low, especially since such teachings would be limited the Sith Emperor and any other True Sith in the Empire as opposed to recruits.

Doesn't work like that... the power goes to you, is corrupted in doing so, to fuel your own power.

I see. You certainly seem to understand Force power mechanics better than I do.

Well he was the last of the Sith Lords... so he had much knowledge at his disposal.

True, and most of what he probably did in the empire was to do a lot more studying since Tarkin and Vader were running the show.

As said above you must know the various ebbs and flows of energy to be able to master things Plageus was stated to have mastered.

 

I'm not saying one is a shoe-in to beat the other, just your are discounting one party a whole bunch in your estimates.

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Here's the thing: One of the few well-done things about The Jedi Masters mod by Trex in my opinion was to point out that there was a major difference between Old Sith Wars Sith (planet destroyers, Force Vampires, immortals, beings who combined technology with the Dark Side to achieve supremecy) and post Old Sith Wars Sith (schemers, manipulators, illusionists). Trex's explanation was the D'arth Syyth, a Dark Side entity created by the Civil War of the Infinite Empire that essentially controlled the Sith and sought absolute destruction of the Galaxy. Now leaving Trex's explanation aside, it is important to note that the Sith of the Old Sith Wars are FAR more powerful in terms of sheer power than their successors beginning with the New Sith Empire. In fact, the Sith of the New Sith Wars-on were much more like Dark Jedi for the most part, radically different from the Ancient/True Sith or planet destroyers like Nihilus. Also, we've seen that even the ghosts of the Old Sith Wars Sith tended to own post Old Sith Wars Sith (Krayt was nearly defeated by Nihilus, Andeddu, and Bane, then severely wounded by Karness Muur, while Wyrlock was nearly defeated by Andeddu himself). Imagine if an Old Sith Wars Sith Lord like, say, Ajunta Pal met Darth Vader in the flesh rather than being a ghost. Ajunta would crush Vader into spare parts! Likewise, Krayt would never have been able to actually stand against the real Nihilus, Andeddu, or Karness Muur.

 

However, you are right that I should not entirely discount Palpatine in that he was essentially the height of what a New Sith Wars-on Sith could become. But there is obviously a major difference in the power level of the Sith from either era, and Old Sith Wars era seems to have things in their favor.

[Darth Hord]

Quite powerful. However, I would point out in the spirit of the original topic that Kreia not only had access to both many of the same Sith teachings that Palpatine did and many of the elite teachings of the Jedi, but ALSO the teachings of Malachor V. :

Malachor V as well all know was planet of the True Sith who we know is in fact the ancient sith (kreia likely referred to them as such do Kun and Revan's sith) This means that the knowledge is likely of the same sort found on other sith worlds like Korriban but the difference between the two is that Malachor (at the time of the Mandalorian War) was untouched and Korriban wasn't. Now the only technique that one could make any argument for being unique to Malachor is the "force drain/insta kill" (or whatever you want to call it) that Traya uses on the 3 jedi on Dantooine.

 

I would like to point out that Sidious has access to all of Naga Sadow's knowledge through Sadow's holocron(among others). In the "jedi vs sith guide," Palpatine states that he has been to the following ancient sith worlds/moons (or atleast had a heavy/powerful sith presence) Khar Delba,Khar Shian,Dromund Kaas,Thule and we know that he has been to Korriban several times,he very likely visited Zoist and Vjun among others. And this isn't counting the information passed down from the members of Bane's order, in which the founder had learned from Revan,Nadd's and Belia Darzu's holocron(though she was apart of the New Sith Wars) so he likely knew some of the same techniques as Traya, plus there we surely knew techniques invented/discovered. As I said before Sidious also had the Telos holocron which has a wealth of knowledge from many sith of all era's and the known gatekeepers include the likes of Ajunta Pall,Bane,Naga Sadow and Sidious himself later.

 

 

So I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact that Palpatine didn't get the chance to study on Malachor (though he knows of the planets existence and destruction and makes reference to it)

 

only the True Sith Empire would still be able to pass on those teachings. Somehow the likelihood of Palpatine gaining access to that advantage is very low, especially since such teachings would be limited the Sith Emperor and any other True Sith in the Empire as opposed to recruits.

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True Sith Empire=Ancient sith and Palpatine had access to their knowledge. The difference in name is because Kreia doesn't view the Sith empire that Revan created as real sith. So she called the Ancient sith, "true sith" to avoid confusion between the two.

 

And for the record, Darth Maul was stated to trained in the jedi arts and not just by Qui-gon. (Dark Side Source book I believe) so even kreia's jedi knowledge wouldn't be too far ahead of Sidious's jedi knowledge if at all since also had jedi holocrons such as the Tedryn Holocron.

 

Also, we've seen that even the ghosts of the Old Sith Wars Sith tended to own post Old Sith Wars Sith (Krayt was nearly defeated by Nihilus, Andeddu, and Bane, then severely wounded by Karness Muur, while Wyrlock was nearly defeated by Andeddu himself).

 

Bane(who Sidious had Bane's knowledge),Nihilus and Anddedu's holocron (who count dooku had before Krayt which opens the possibility for Palpatine to have study from it) caught Krayt off guard and who's health wasn't perfect at this time hence his reason for talking to them in the first place. I haven't read onward in Legcacy so I can't comment on Muur and Anddedu's battle though Anddedu was killed but Krayt and Wyrlock don't have any feats that put them on the level of "Post Old Sith War" sith such as Bane, Caedus, Vader, and Palpatine or Galen Marek (who although was never anything more than a dark jedi, was trained by Vader in the darkside and even by the of TFU had very little jedi knowledge compared to his sith/dark jedi knowledge so his name is worth mentioning here)

 

Imagine if an Old Sith Wars Sith Lord like, say, Ajunta Pal met Darth Vader in the flesh rather than being a ghost. Ajunta would crush Vader into spare parts!

What has Ajunta Pall done other than being one of the original sith lords? Being a ancient sith simply isn't enough to make that assumption.

 

Likewise, Krayt would never have been able to actually stand against the real Nihilus, Andeddu, or Karness Muur.

I never thought Krayt wasn anything special.

 

 

I also don't think Kreia's lightsaber skills are superior to Sidious's.