Dragon Skin in the Military

[Darth_Yuthura]

Tommycat's second part of his post quotes a source saying the thing falls apart when the temprature hits 120 degrees. There's proof right there that they weren't willing to sacrifice troop safety on something that doesn't work.

 

So they did give Dragon Skin to all the armed forces? I remember that it was banned before it was even confirmed that it was prone to failure in hot conditions. Third party sources had tested the vests and brought serious question to the Army's tests, even under optimal conditions. If the Army manipulated tests under optimal conditions, then how can we be sure they didn't alter DS under unfavorable conditions?

 

So the scales fall down in the bottom of the vest at 120 degrees? Great. We'll have excellent beltline protection from bullets while other little things like the heart, lungs, liver, and spleen are without any protection except cloth.

 

Yeah, while those wearing Interceptor will always leave some of their vital organs exposed under any circumstances. Yeah, DS fails in extreme heat, but it's not like it completely breaks down... did you notice that virtually all those penetrations of which the Army claims landed only on the areas where a disc was missing? Of course, if you know where to fire, then that might make it easier to penetrate the vest. If you aimed only at where the Interceptor plates don't cover the torso, it would fail every time.

 

If you have a gap in the mesh that exposes the heart, there is still a LOT of the vest that still works properly. Notice in the X-rays that the test shots were made at the locations where the discs left the body exposed? I don't believe our enemies had X-ray vision to know where to shoot. If you fired at it with an Ak, I wouldn't put it past there being a few hits at the exposed areas, but the majority of the shots would still have been stopped in the areas that hadn't been compromised. Pepper an Interceptor vest and the same thing would happen. Fire at an uncompromised DS vest, and it would outperform Interceptor in every way.

 

It would be a completely irresponsible use of our money and soldiers to put them in substandard armor.

 

Then why are there instances when the Army does equip special forces with this substandard vest? Why would they classify so much about their tests if DS doesn't stand a chance against Interceptor? Why would they distort statistics and deliberately modify statements of witnesses to something completely different than they recalled? How could so many third-party sources come to such different conclusions about the same tests?

 

I would assume there's more to this than the Army wants to admit. I call it irresponsible and depraved indifference to human life if they have distorted tests in order to keep a contract with Point-blank for an inferior product. Pinnacle has come up with a brilliant design in body armour and if they haven't been given a fair trial, then that's not irresponsible; that's a criminal act against life.

[Jae Onasi]

So they did give Dragon Skin to all the armed forces? I remember that it was banned before it was even confirmed that it was prone to failure in hot conditions.

Did I say they gave the armor to all armed forces? No. I did not, nor did I imply anything remotely like that.

 

Pinnacle got in trouble because they classified their armor as having Class V protection when they had not received written certification.

 

Third party sources had tested the vests and brought serious question to the Army's tests, even under optimal conditions. If the Army manipulated tests under optimal conditions, then how can we be sure they didn't alter DS under unfavorable conditions?

The one third party source that did testing from what I can see was NBC, and it appears they did so with the vest laid flat. This isn't normal conditions for usage, unless you plan on equipping Flat Stanley with it. It appears to me from reading all these links you've provided that Pinnacle's owner is alleging the Army manipulated tests, but he hasn't shown any proof. In fact, the Army has suggested an independent third party do testing, and Pinnacle hasn't taken them up on the offer.

 

Please present proof of this alleged manipulation from a legitimate, unbiased source. "Soldiers for Truth" is obviously biased--"Military Procurement Mafia"? Am I supposed to take a site like that seriously? It sounds about as unbiased as Little Green Footballs.

 

Yeah, while those wearing Interceptor will always leave some of their vital organs exposed under any circumstances. Yeah, DS fails in extreme heat, but it's not like it completely breaks down... did you notice that virtually all those penetrations of which the Army claims landed only on the areas where a disc was missing? Of course, if you know where to fire, then that might make it easier to penetrate the vest. If you aimed only at where the Interceptor plates don't cover the torso, it would fail every time.

One shot failure is one shot too many. M16 A1's can empty a clip of 30 rounds in 2.8 seconds. Try taking 30 shots and the entire vest is going to get hit.

 

If you have a gap in the mesh that exposes the heart, there is still a LOT of the vest that still works properly.

Good. You take the vest with the gap over the heart. I'm sure not going to. No gap is acceptable.

Notice in the X-rays that the test shots were made at the locations where the discs left the body exposed? I don't believe our enemies had X-ray vision to know where to shoot. If you fired at it with an Ak, I wouldn't put it past there being a few hits at the exposed areas, but the majority of the shots would still have been stopped in the areas that hadn't been compromised.

Notice in the x-rays that the vests were compromised before the firing even started? Can you guarantee me that the enemy is going to miss the compromised areas 100% of the time just because they can't see them? Do you consider it acceptable to get hit even one time by an AK or M16 bullet? I don't.

 

Pepper an Interceptor vest and the same thing would happen. Fire at an uncompromised DS vest, and it would outperform Interceptor in every way.

If it's UNCOMPROMISED, sure. You could have bullet proof plastic encasing someone, but if there were gaps, it's no good.

Then why are there instances when the Army does equip special forces with this substandard vest?

If the Army has banned it, how do you know it's being used by Special Forces?

Why would they classify so much about their tests if DS doesn't stand a chance against Interceptor?

They said it was to keep from giving the enemy unneeded information.

Why would they distort statistics and deliberately modify statements of witnesses to something completely different than they recalled?

Please prove these distortions. I saw nothing in any of your sources that indicated that, other than Pinnacle's owner making that unfounded/unproven accusation.

How could so many third-party sources come to such different conclusions about the same tests?

How many 3rd party sources were there, exactly?

I would assume there's more to this than the Army wants to admit.

There may be, but I doubt we the public would know about it.

 

I call it irresponsible and depraved indifference to human life if they have distorted tests in order to keep a contract with Point-blank for an inferior product.

That's quite an emotional opinion.

 

Pinnacle has come up with a brilliant design in body armour and if they haven't been given a fair trial, then that's not irresponsible; that's a criminal act against life.

Why hasn't Pinnacle agreed to testing by an independent third party agreeable to both them and the Army, then? That would solve a lot of this dispute, don't you think?

[Darth_Yuthura]

I'm sorry, but there was so much I didn't understand just there. Could you please explain it again?

 

I do see you criticizing dragon skin for some faults that interceptor has, but I don't seem to know which ones you mean.

 

Why not watch youtube and tell me how many of those DS videos show the armour failing... actually failing. Some cameramen claim that their footage was altered to something completely different. If I test were done where DS was subjected to punishment it was not designed for, it would not be regarded as a failure of the vest, yet many are stated as such.

[Jae Onasi]

I'm sorry, but there was so much I didn't understand just there. Could you please explain it again?

 

I do see you criticizing dragon skin for some faults that interceptor has, but I don't seem to know which ones you mean.

Could you specify what you find confusing, please?

[Darth_Yuthura]

The parts that neglect to take into account Interceptor's weak points.

 

Remember that DS provides full torso protection. So if shots were taken at Interceptor armour's exposed points near the shoulders and under the armpits, they would fail all ballistic tests as well. If you are suggesting that DS fails because it exposes critical organs, then Interceptor should be cast down as well.

[Jeff]

Think this is a Kavar's topic.

[EnderWiggin]

If you have a gap in the mesh that exposes the heart, there is still a LOT of the vest that still works properly. Notice in the X-rays that the test shots were made at the locations where the discs left the body exposed? I don't believe our enemies had X-ray vision to know where to shoot. If you fired at it with an Ak, I wouldn't put it past there being a few hits at the exposed areas, but the majority of the shots would still have been stopped in the areas that hadn't been compromised.

 

It does only take one bullet to kill you, you know. If you don't "put it past there being a few hits at the exposed areas" then you should know that you're probably dead if you're in this scenario.

 

 

_EW_

[Jae Onasi]

The parts that neglect to take into account Interceptor's weak points.

 

Remember that DS provides full torso protection. So if shots were taken at Interceptor armour's exposed points near the shoulders and under the armpits, they would fail all ballistic tests as well. If you are suggesting that DS fails because it exposes critical organs, then Interceptor should be cast down as well.

 

DS doesn't protect under the armpits or near the shoulders, either, from what I saw on the pro-DS video of the guy shooting the DS armor--it looked like any other vest to me when the guy took it off the dummy. No armor protects the armpit or near the shoulders, except maybe a chainmail shirt (which isn't bullet proof anyway), because you have to be able to move your arms freely. Neither scale nor plate armor allows the necessary mobility, so I expect to see those exposure points in any bullet-resistant vest. The military is trained to aim for center-mass (center of the chest or back), not the shoulder or armpit, and if you have your arm up so that your armpit is exposed, you're doing something wrong. In addition, failure at the shoulder at most exposes the subclavian artery in terms of critical structures. It does not expose the heart, lungs, spleen, liver, spine, or GI tract.

[EnderWiggin]

It does not expose the heart, lungs, spleen, liver, spine, or GI tract.

@D_Y

 

Hint: The DS does expose these things in the heat.

 

_EW_

[Q]

After what happened in 1993, I wouldn't trust NBC to test the Ronco® Turnip Twaddler™, let alone a bulletproof vest.

[JediAthos]

prone to failure at high temperatures exposes things at high temperatures...so I'm not sure what distinction you're making DY.

 

The Army's test results were clear and the armor clearly did not do what they expected it to. Any opinions regarding test tampering would have to have some proof behind them to indicate the Army's testing was anything but valid and truthful. Otherwise it boils down to one "expert" opinion against another and one test against another, and having served in the military I can tell you what test they'll go with every time regardless of what weapon, vehicle, product, etc... is being tested.

[Q]

prone to failure at high temperatures exposes things at high temperatures...so I'm not sure what distinction you're making DY.

Semantics determine the truth, you know.

[Jae Onasi]

Some of the recent posts were more suited for PMs and so were deleted/edited. Carry on.

 

Darth_Yuthura, we gave you fair warning that if the topic stayed serious it would get moved. The moderating staff talked it over and Jeff made the decision to move it to Kavar's. To clarify my position--as super-moderator promoted from Star Wars Knights moderator, I can, when needed, moderate anywhere, including Ahto. It doesn't matter to me if we don't agree on a subject. As long as people follow the rules and mod instructions, we'll never have a problem.

[EnderWiggin]

Darth_Yuthura, we gave you fair warning that if the topic stayed serious it would get moved. The moderating staff talked it over and Jeff made the decision to move it to Kavar's.

I even tried to keep it light-hearted by posting Pete's Dragon and Dragonite

 

_EW_

[Jae Onasi]

I even tried to keep it light-hearted by posting Pete's Dragon and Dragonite

 

_EW_

 

I know--and I got a chuckle out of them, too.

[Tommycat]

Well with my drummer coming from the Army, he told me of the test of his body armor that they did. They got a vest and fired quite a number of rounds of 7.62mm from an M16 and only one round punctured the armor. One wise guy said, "Well that's all well and good but the enemy is using AK-47's." The First Seargeant then proceeded to fire rounds from an AK-47 and it made it through in significantly less, but with the grouping the First seargent was using(less than 1 inch), it is pretty impressive. I would rather wear that 28lb vest that I could trust with a 3 round burst from just about any small arms fire than a 50% chance that within 2 rounds it goes through a 47 lb vest. That's 19 lbs more ammo I could carry.

 

Lets look at the facts.

5 times the cost.

extreme temperature failure.

Inadequate protection.

More weight.

 

Gee can't imagine why the Army wouldn't be jumping at the chance to have Dragon Skin.

 

note: I would have been more specific with the numbers of rounds, but I wouldn't want to let the whole world know just how many rounds they need to make it through our body armor. But I will say that it was significantly more than triple the failure numbers of Dragon Skin.

 

Another note: The Army banned Dragon Skin in 2006. It was tested in May 2004. Don't know why you keep saying it was banned before it was tested.

 

Here's a far better description

http://op-for.com/2007/05/dragon_skin_redux.html

 

And because people like vidya

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003510.html

Neal inspecting the hole where DS failed and Interceptor wouldn't have.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Okay, it's clear that Interceptor has the clear advantage of being able to stand up to the elements much better than Dragon Skin. I cannot deny that is its strength in terms of ability to take non-projectile punishment where you have a more complex structure with dragon skin.

 

If Pinnacle were to come up with something other than using an adhesive to hold the disks in place, Dragon skin will not be as reliable. If they were to interweave the discs with kevlar, or some other mechanical fastener, then that would change, but even with what they have, it's by far better at stopping projectiles than Interceptor. But given as they have to take abuse from other elements, then I would admit that Interceptor wins that battle.

 

And here are some counter facts to those that were posted above:

 

-It actually has gone down in price and now is 1.5 times the price of Interceptor

-Greater torso protection than Interceptor

-Flexible

-Covers more of the torso than Interceptor

 

+It's heavier, can't deny that

+vulnerable to other elements encountered on the battlefield

 

Whatever else it may have the edge on, that vulnerability to the elements makes Dragon Skin is a severe problem that Pinnacle needs to deal with before it would be accepted by the Military.

[Jae Onasi]

If they can solve the delamination problem and lower the weight, I think it would be a terrific product. I hope they solve those problems.

[CommanderQ]

^^Me too:) It would definatley be the perfect armor if they could solve those problems. Our troops will need that type of armor if it is improved, times are definately more tense then before, the troops will need the best we can give them...

[JediAthos]

couldn't agree more, especially with the tension on the Korean Peninsula right now. I'd also love to see them improve the design of the Hummer that the troops are using, but that's another discussion entirely