Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Regarding my defense for MI SE as a budget title: It's one thing to update a game's gfx and another to do FRIGGIN MONKEY ISLAND 5 ! Even the StarWars SE work could be considered "budget" compared to a new StarWars. There were probably only a dozen artists sitting fulltime on the SE improvements, compared to a couple of hundred for the prequels. It's all fine and dandy that TMI is a "budget" title, but I don't want "Monkey Island 5" to be a budget title. I'd want for it to have a considerate amount of R&D, so that it doesn't fall into the EMI pit again. My lack of satisfaction with the TMI artstyle/gfx comes from a basic fact: Average graphical improvement of videogames from 2000->2009 is much greater than the difference between EMI and TMI. TMI looks and feels much better than EMI, no question, it's just not leagues better. Telltale's humor and storytelling is top-notch. Their character animation is very good also. I like their framing for cutscene dialogue. I like the models (somewhat) I don't like the lighting And I don't like the resulting lack of a good ambient atmosphere. I think the main reason is the need to be downwards compatible for Wii-level gfx. You can't do many dynamic lights and shadows on the Wii and it probably would be too much work for Telltale to maintain two versions of their engine or two different versions of a game. I understand that. To put this into perspective: I would've loved for TMI to be the Annecy-winner equivalent of a videogame, now it's more like a TV saturday morning cartoon. It's still fine, it could just be much more artistically. If you don't know what I'm talking about with the Diablo3 controversy, it's best to leave it at that. But rest assured, I was not the one who started or joined in the artstyle criticism - but the critique was justified I believe in constructive criticism, even towards your favorite company. I bet some of the improvements TellTaleGames made between E3 and now are a direct result from constructive feedback they got from fans and other developers/journalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fealiks Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I didn't read much of this thread, but I just wanna point out that the lighting you're seeing now isn't final. And Guy.brush, I actually liked the second image you changed, apart from the fact that the loss of colour was a little too much and I didn't really like the black edges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Okay, but I still can't quite understand what you're getting at with the lighting :S Maybe your monitor is set wrong? The lighting is fine, the shadows are gorgeous. And you have barely touched on the lighting in your improvements (even though you are saying it is your only gripe) Would you be happy with the bloom filter they put in most games these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Even the StarWars SE work could be considered "budget" compared to a new StarWars. Your argument was fine without yet another pointless reference to something completely unrelated. Don't edit your posts if you're going to make them far worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 How could i really touch the shadows without dissecting the image? I would need internal render targets of the engine for that. Just look at the brand new intro trailer: 0:16 lightning-> where is the shadow for the ship or the island? 0:25 LeChuck's first hero shot ->where is the keylight? there is none. it's way too diffuse for a night-thunderstorm setting. 0:27 no shadows on the crates, ship or anything else. I don't demand sophisticated character model self-shadowing (although that would be nice to have) but some basic shadows or a fake ambient occlusion would go a long way to improve all the ship shots. 1:00 look at the corners between the planks and the rail. Aweful. Again no contact shadow, no ambient occlusion or shadows at all. When the lightning hits, it just makes everything go bright for a short period of time. Maybe they will still improve this, but I'm not a believer in the unrealistic "it's just a beta, it will be totally enhanced 5 days from now category" It's not a dealbreaker, not by a long shot, but I'd love for TellTale to try and tackle those issues in subsequent episodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elTee Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Let's not all get carried away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishmile Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 This thread is funny... **Put on Sarcasm Goggles Now** I will not be happy unless there is some drop shadows, plastic wrap and solar flares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elTee Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I find it strange that you're all ridiculing guy.brush for sharing an opinion on TMI whilst in other threads you're doing the exact same thing about MI:SE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishmile Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I know... LOL we're such hypocrites... Nah Im just teasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Taken from a youtube version of the latest trailer. it's just a quick photoshop mockup, but you get a sense of what difference a good keylight could make for the atmosphere. Again: Courage to dip the unimportant parts of an image into black. Who cares about the 10 polygon wood pole in the background - LeChuck's hero shot is all that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Mania Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Telltale isn't Valve or Epic Games. They don't have all that fancy stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Mania Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 latest screenshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Well at least we can all agree that there IS something lacking in the lighting department and that an improvement there would not only boost atmosphere, it would also help to hide lowpoly counts. I can't believe that it would be impossible for a company like Telltale to achieve a keylight effect similar to the mock-up I made. Their artwork is too good to be lighted so bland Couple of more examples from the most recent trailer: Note that the Elaine lighting is pretty ok-ish from the start. At least she has some sort of keylight to begin with. EDIT: and what does the latest screenshot prove? it still severly lacks a good lighting. It's a thunderstorm at night. You tell me you could look up Guybrush's sleeve like that in such a situation? I think the Telltale engine lacks a feature where you can define lights for a single shot and then deactivate them in wide shots or rearrange them inbetween shots. It looks like once they have their lights set, that's it for the whole setting. But for such a character driven game, there should be the ability to "attach" lights to characters or specific shots. Just like a chief lighting technician would work on a movie set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fealiks Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Those improvements are actually really nice, especially the LeChuck one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laserschwert Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Yep, those are looking good... the one in the opening post aren't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Udvarnoky Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Huh? I don't actually play Blizzard games outside of Lost Vikings and Blackthorne. Dammit I need to play Blackthorne again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 well I'm more of a nighttime guy No the reason is simple: The ones in the opening post are even more bland looking daytime shots with totally diffuse lighting. It's really difficult to improve on that if you don't have the elements as single layers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fealiks Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Yeah, I get what you mean, but I think you went a bit too far with the first ones (I didn't like the black lines). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishmile Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Yeah the poster edge was the wrong approach..... I dig the mood of the later stuff but I still like the TTG versions better.... But I do like seeing people's vision as to what the games should look like.... even when I do not agree entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyntheticGerbil Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 EDIT: and what does the latest screenshot prove? it still severly lacks a good lighting. It's a thunderstorm at night. You tell me you could look up Guybrush's sleeve like that in such a situation? I think the Telltale engine lacks a feature where you can define lights for a single shot and then deactivate them in wide shots or rearrange them inbetween shots. It looks like once they have their lights set, that's it for the whole setting. But for such a character driven game, there should be the ability to "attach" lights to characters or specific shots. Just like a chief lighting technician would work on a movie set. You're still applying this stuff to still frames within Photoshop and After Effects. You aren't working within their engine. Even if you work with realtime lighting in 3DSMax or Maya, it still tends to look like crap before an actual render. I'm betting they have keylights that can be moved around in real time, though. Maybe the guys weren't wanting to go so dramatic in the opening? I don't know. Better lighting would help, but I don't know if the atmosphere is completely ruined with playing it. I suggest you post your work on the last few frames in the Private Pirate's forum and just see their response. I'm curious to know what they have to say just as well. Also, still waiting on your website link, guy. Saw Parabolee's stuff and there's a lot of talk behind nothing to show, so lets see how you measure up and I would like to find out this mystery AAA company you work for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parabolee Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 You're still applying this stuff to still frames within Photoshop and After Effects. You aren't working within their engine. Even if you work with realtime lighting in 3DSMax or Maya, it still tends to look like crap vefore an actual render. I'm betting they have keylights that can be moved around in real time, though. Maybe the guys weren't wanting to go so dramatic in the opening? I don't know. Better lighting would help, but I don't know if the atmosphere is completely ruined with playing it. I suggest you post your work on the last few frames in the Private Pirate's forum and just see their response. I'm curious to know what they have to say just as well. Also, still waiting on your website link, guy. Saw Parabolee's stuff and there's a lot of talk behind nothing to show, so lets see how you measure up and I would like to find out this mystery AAA company you work for. You know what, you are one of the rudest people I have ever had the misfortune to communicate with on a forum! You really never have anything nice to say at all do you? Is this how you get your kicks by trolling message forums? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyntheticGerbil Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 You know what, you are one of the rudest people I have ever had the misfortune to communicate with on a forum! *takes a bow* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fealiks Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Not really a good thing, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parabolee Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 *takes a bow* And proud if it too. Nice life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 You're still applying this stuff to still frames within Photoshop and After Effects. You aren't working within their engine. Even if you work with realtime lighting in 3DSMax or Maya, it still tends to look like crap vefore an actual render. I'm betting they have keylights that can be moved around in real time, though. Maybe the guys weren't wanting to go so dramatic in the opening? I don't know. Better lighting would help, but I don't know if the atmosphere is completely ruined with playing it. When I saw those pictures that is exactly what I was thinking. Yes, it may look lovely on a still photo but it's a lot more work to get a nice looking lighting system that will also run at reasonable speeds on low end systems. None of the other Monkey Island games had such extensive lighting so I'm not sure why you keep suggesting that the look of TMI is worse than that of the 2D Monkey Island games. (they never had animation as smooth and wonderful as TMI) The TellTale engine is fairly new and it's constantly improving as can be seen when looking right back at the game Bone. Their main priority with the engine is gameplay and it's not so simple to just incorporate, for example, Unreal Engine's lighting into TellTale's engine! They are completely separate! It is a small team and they don't have a Lighting Department. Most of the work is in the wonderful writing and animation. Stop asking so much of them! Oh and SyntheticGerbil, why do you keep bringing Parabolee into this? He has nothing to do with this topic :S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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