Why is everyone complaining?

[Tobias Reiper]

All I ever hear is how this is going to be terrible and if you don't buy it Bioware is gonna see sense and make a KotOR 3.

That's just dumb in every sense of the word.

If this doesn't work Bioware will just lose faith in the KotOR world and go off making other games, and even then, with the amount of stuff they're pouring into this game, they're gonna lose a lot of money, and if nobody buys it, I'm not entirely sure they could afford to make KotOR 3 and make it good.

Plus, I'm positive Bioware will end the KotOR story in the MMO, because they aren't, pardon my language, douchebags.

[Da_Man_2423]

Well, it WILL work, because it's BioWare. The only thing they fail at is failing.

[Tobias Reiper]

Yea, I mean, just look at the trailers and you'll already be able to tell that it's going to kick the crap out of KotOR 1 and 2.

[Da_Man_2423]

Well, I don't know about that. The advantage to the singleplayer experience was that the story revolved around you, and the choices you made impacted the WHOLE story. Now it only affects your character, which is fine, but some people just don't want to play that way (or spend money on monthly payments). You also didn't have to deal with the typical MMO atmosphere of immature kids dragging down your experience or any of that other MMO crap. Just comes down to personal preference.

 

BioWare is putting a crap load of resources into this game. It WILL be epic. The complainers don't have to buy it. The servers will better off without you.

[Sevn_Aten]

I'm honestly not sure how well a single player KOTOR3 would do. I mean, yea all of us hardcore KOTOR fans would by it, but that's it. It would be a hard sell to non-KOTOR fans and many gamers now-a-days will not buy any game that doesn't have some form of multi-player. I think they made the best decision possible to make an MMO. I think there are more people who would not buy a SP KOTOR3 than people who will not buy TOR simply because it's an MMO and not completely dedicated to the KOTOR story arc.

[adamqd]

I agree OP, but your no better than the complainers, if your just gonna put em all into one pot and disregard/flame.

 

This is a very touchy subject, the success and re-playability of KI KII, have made a lot of fans, who have very specific, high standards.

Obviously a lot of KotoR fans have wanted/ are very pleased with, an MMO Continuation of the franchise, Some are violently opposed to it... some couldn't care less.

 

So just by the company making it and the IP being used, The "Don't Like it? Leave" or "I love it Blindly" comments, dont apply, people have a lot more investment in this, Positive or Negative, than a random original title from Eidos or something.

 

Don't be surprised if you read a lot of Rants or Love letters.

[Da_Man_2423]

Well I wish we would hear more love letters then. Ranting seems to be more popular.

[adamqd]

When I say love letters I mean people Defending its honor, or Blindly Championing it... when It aint even out yet, Noble yet silly. I'm sure it will rock, but I'm not gonna change my name to lord Angral Just yet

[Miltiades]

I'm betting they already have a large enough fanbase with TOR for the game to succeed in selling lots of copies.

 

And while we're talking about BioWare (in which I have a little less confidence than most of you guys these days), that doesn't mean we should take everything they do in this game as a present from God. Like aqd said, blindly accepting everything BioWare does is not a good way of supporting them. Neither is completely thrashing the game. Constructive criticism should be the ideal.

 

I do believe that when a certain topic of the game attracts negative reactions, we should listen and discuss, rather than just ignoring the negativity and reacting with "BioWare knows what it's doing. Just relax", which I've seen a couple of times too many.

[Da_Man_2423]

 

I do believe that when a certain topic of the game attracts negative reactions, we should listen and discuss, rather than just ignoring the negativity and reacting with "BioWare knows what it's doing. Just relax", which I've seen a couple of times too many.

 

All right, well that may be your position, but BioWare has yet to disappoint me. If I do get disappointed, then that'll be my own damn fault for having high expectations, and I'll acknowledge that. We can listen and discuss once they decide to let us see that E3 video. No one is ignoring the negativity, because there isn't a whole lot to be negative about at the moment. If people feel something is negative or needs change, open up a thread, and we can all have a nice, friendly discussion.

[True_Avery]

Yea, I mean, just look at the trailers and you'll already be able to tell that it's going to kick the crap out of KotOR 1 and 2.

Kotor 1 I doubt. The game is an RPG classic and one of the better representations of the genre and Star Wars franchise.

 

Better than Kotor 2... definitely.

[jrrtoken]

Better than Kotor 2... definitely.

In other aspects, including gameplay and overall polish, perhaps, but when comes towards the plot and overall quality of writing...well, TOR didn't have a chance from the start, to put it nicely.

[Jeff]

Yeah, I like the writing in TSL better than the original. I do have pretty high hopes for TOR though. But not sure it can surpass KotOR on my list which is my number one game of all time.

[True_Avery]

In other aspects, including gameplay and overall polish, perhaps, but when comes towards the plot and overall quality of writing...well, TOR didn't have a chance from the start, to put it nicely.

Other than Kreia, it was a D&D rip-off. Kreia was interesting to a point, but every other character was utterly unpleasant, unlikable, and copy cats of each other but with different extremely tragic stories behind each of them, and each was supposed to teach us that life is basically unfair.

 

Yay, thanks Avellone!

 

I also thought the whole "wound in the force" thing was sort of novel originally in my first play through, but about the time we learn about Nihilus the D&D shined through like a brilliant sun. Cut off wound I can sort of buy. It was new, make use of the Force in ways it hadn't, and brought weakness to this all powerful power except I thought it went too far.

 

The writing has the same problem that I have with NWN2. It is fairly bland, uninformative, and it did not help that rushed time only made these and other flaws more blatantly apparent to me.

 

Other than Kreia, whom I liked only for a novel "well, this is at least new" reason, I despised every new character and I am fairly certain that was avellone's plan from the start. Make unlikable characters, with bland, tragic pasts and bland, tragic personalities and then *gasp* have them talk endlessly about said topics even when you wanted the hell away from them. At least in Kotor 1 we had characters who would stray away from topics, be pleasant every now and then, and party members whom you could put together and get interaction other than lectures and "omg my life is so terrible". Yes, there were K1 characters like Juhani that did this but it doesn't help that every TSL character was Juhani with voice actors trying their BEST to sound like they were half asleep.

 

Avellone is not a terrible writer. He just recycled everything he had already done, put together a story from a plot he himself did not fully understand (I blame this partly on Lucasarts and their stupid demands), and formed a story that made little sense, and made even less sense in the context of a lot of the EU.

 

Come on. Out of he history of the galaxy, was Exile really the only one to pull off the Force wound thing? Jedi fought in wars for like, 10,000 years and it is only 1 or 2 that manage to pull this thing off? Sure, a lot of people died at Malachor but how about the Death Star or the other mass destroyers throughout Star Wars history?

 

TSL was novel in an original, in its own universe sense. It fits into Star Wars canon in the same way the Batman movie fits into the comic books: They share the same name, some of the same characters, and some of the same situations but the changes are so drastic that you -could- try to put them together but you'd get a jumbled mess.

 

That, and it doesn't help that you effectively completed absolutely nothing in TSL. Every action you did will either be forgotten, never known, or taken credit for by someone else. That sort of makes sense in the context of the story, but it feels more like a poor excuse to create a ridiculous story that you can fit in by basically saying "well, nobody will remember it!"

 

In summary, I really disliked TSL in the grand scheme of things. Despite being incomplete, I doubt the full story would have been anything else but the continuation of these dull, unlikable, unrelatable dolls that Avellone created. Yes, Star Wars is a universe of magic and such but I hate it in the same way I hate the Star Wars comics much of the time, especially the one currently BUTCHERING the Kotor story and characters and some of the older that had Palpatine coming back to life and... creating black holes with his mind.

 

TSL was Myspace fanfiction done by someone with an at least decent understanding of social workings, and a knowledge of Star Wars entirely based around Kotor 1. Perhaps SWTOR wont be a masterpiece story with a contrived and pointless plot, but if TSL is a masterpiece of writing then I weep for the RPG genre.

 

Not to say that I -hate- the game. I'll play through it along with K1, as I don't think it is appallingly bad. The game is sturdy when patched, and when played all the way through it sort of makes it up with the final battle, but... I just cannot like such poorly designed characters.

[Jeff]

tl;dr, but Avery I just don't understand why you think TSL is the same as D&D. You've said it before though so I don't think an explanation will make me see it, it just doesn't make sense to me.

[jrrtoken]

Other than Kreia, it was a D&D rip-off. Kreia was interesting to a point, but every other character was utterly unpleasant, unlikable, and copy cats of each other but with different extremely tragic stories behind each of them, and each was supposed to teach us that life is basically unfair.

Well, yes, that's sort of the point. It's better to have unusual and, quite frankly, depressing characters then to have "Good Soldier Archetype 1" and "Female Good-doer 3" most commonly found throughout other games.

The writing has the same problem that I have with NWN2. It is fairly bland, uninformative, and it did not help that rushed time only made these and other flaws more blatantly apparent to me.

I can agree, to an extent, but honestly, I prefer an unorthodox and, frankly, unpleasant plots in games, as it really makes you, the PC, feel even more attached to the world that you are in, rather simply placing you as another pawn in the infinite existence that is the universe. It's selfish, but it's that sort of notion of everything focusing on oneself which allows you to become more immersed in the game.

Other than Kreia, whom I liked only for a novel "well, this is at least new" reason, I despised every new character and I am fairly certain that was avellone's plan from the start. Make unlikable characters, with bland, tragic pasts and bland, tragic personalities and then *gasp* have them talk endlessly about said topics even when you wanted the hell away from them. At least in Kotor 1 we had characters who would stray away from topics, be pleasant every now and then, and party members whom you could put together and get interaction other than lectures and "omg my life is so terrible".

I wouldn't consider most of the characters to have cliched or overdone backstories. Well, except for Bao-Dur, but that was sort of expected.

 

Either way, in K1 we had "JESUS MY WIFE DIED IN MY ARMS FROM THE SITH IM GOING TO KILL THOSE EVIL SITH BLARGHHH!!!" or "The Jedi are good, Sith are bad, quit flirting with me". And let's not forget the oh insightful and ever so useful T3.

avellone is not a terrible writing. He just recycled everything he had already done, put together a story from a plot he himself did not fully understand (I blame this partly on Lucasarts and their stupid demands), and formed a story that made little sense, and made even less sense in the context of a lot of the EU.

Since when has any EU material ever had legitimate context?

Come on. Out of he history of the galaxy, was Exile really the only one to pull off the Force wound thing? Jedi fought in wars for like, 10,000 years and it is only 1 or 2 that manage to pull this thing off? Sure, a lot of people died at Malachor but how about the Death Star or the other mass destroyers throughout Star Wars history?

Again, seem my "Self-centered plots are better" line.

That, and it doesn't help that you effectively completed absolutely nothing in TSL. Every action you did will either be forgotten, never known, or taken credit for by someone else. That sort of makes sense in the context of the story, but it feels more like a poor excuse to create a ridiculous story that you can fit in by basically saying "well, nobody will remember it!"

Disagree, to an extent. There's the reformation of the Jedi Order, which might have probably been restored without training any of your companions, but I feel that your companions were meant to be the cornerstone of the new Order.

TSL was Myspace fanfiction done by someone with an at least decent understanding of social workings, and a knowledge of Star Wars entirely based around Kotor 1. Perhaps SWTOR wont be a masterpiece story with a contrived and pointless plot, but if TSL is a masterpiece of writing then I weep for the RPG genre.

Again, I'd rather see some sense of creativity or a sort of unusual manner in writing rather than something utterly generic. If we still see banal plots being churned out by Bethesda or BioWare, then I feel that the genre is stagnant.

[Avisto]

I'm complaining that Opera isn't compatible with their site!

[Hallucination]

tl;dr, but Avery I just don't understand why you think TSL is the same as D&D. You've said it before though so I don't think an explanation will make me see it, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Methinks it's more of a 'K2 was unStar-Warsy and all GRIMDARK' than a 'K2 was DnD' thing, but I'll let Ave handle the interpretation of her own statements.

[True_Avery]

tl;dr, but Avery I just don't understand why you think TSL is the same as D&D. You've said it before though so I don't think an explanation will make me see it, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Kreia's idea that the Force was a conscious "god" messing with people and sort of feeding off of their fate is ripped directly from D&D gods.

 

Nihilus being a walking natural disaster, a half of Exile, and the almost spirit like quality to him had him being both an attempt at Palpatine's larger-than-god powers in he comics, and D&D/fantasy style concepts borrowed from Avellone's previous work

 

The whole thing with Darth Sion keeping himself together, being a walking corpse, and so on borrows a little from Planescape's Nameless one. That, and convincing a guy who had enough resolve to keep himself alive through sheer force of will to give up in like... 5 minutes is just silly.

 

That, and you may as well look at his track record:

 

* Star Trek: Starfleet Academy (1997)

* Fallout 2 (1998)

* Descent to Undermountain (1998)

* Baldur's Gate (1998)

* Planescape: Torment (1999)

* Icewind Dale (2000)

* Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter (2001)

* Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance (2001)

* Icewind Dale II (2002)

* Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader (2003)

* Champions of Norrath (2004)

* Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords (2005)

* Neverwinter Nights 2 (2006)

* Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer (2007)

 

Other than Star Trek and TSL, his writing style has been honed for fantasy/D&D style writing and, in my opinion, it shines through.

 

Well, yes, that's sort of the point. It's better to have unusual and, quite frankly, depressing characters then to have "Good Soldier Archetype 1" and "Female Good-doer 3" most commonly found throughout other games.

I would completely agree with you except that Avellone went out of his way to write both Exile and Revan as Mary-sue characters. From what he wrote in with Kreia, it was almost impossible to still look bad at Revan. If you were super evil in K1... well, that was all part of the plan. If you were super good... all part of the plan.

 

Everything played into Revan's hand far too perfectly. K1 had Revan sort of great as you were the character, but TSL just made the idea of choice in the first game a joke. No matter what path, choices, etc Revan was always the good guy, always saving the galaxy, and so on.

 

Good-doer and so is is monotonous, but that is why you pace yourself. Sure, having a happy go lucky character can be bad but having EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER a broken, dull, boring husk of a person is just as monotonous. It was a reaching attempt to be original that over reached and over compensated. This not helped along by Revan and Exile being undefeatable, unbeatable gods of the world.

 

Now, I'll admit right here that I do like the Revan and Exile portrayed but that, I believe, was the point of the writing. It gives us too much reason to like them. Yes, it was all from Kreia's mouth but, seeing as there was no opposing beliefs to bounce back in the game we have to take what she says regardless. I really wanted someone to bounce Kreia's ideas from, and disciple almost managed to do this but he was a completely unlikable "good-doer" character anyway.

 

It wasn't that they were depressing. I like characters that can tell a story that depresses me. I simply didn't like the TSL characters, because it demanded that I be depressed about everything like they were. There is looking at the world in a realistic manner, and then there is looking at the world through muddy glasses.

 

He indeed took a chance and I respect his attempt, but I cannot, personally, like the outcome. He knocked that **** up to 11 when he should have stayed steady at 5

 

I wouldn't consider most of the characters to have cliched or overdone backstories. Well, except for Bao-Dur, but that was sort of expected.

True. Oh man, Bao-dur. One example of consciousness dropping dialogue and voice acting. He, Mira, Disciple... Why could none of them talk.

 

Either way, in K1 we had "JESUS MY WIFE DIED IN MY ARMS FROM THE SITH IM GOING TO KILL THOSE EVIL SITH BLARGHHH!!!" or "The Jedi are good, Sith are bad, quit flirting with me". And let's not forget the oh insightful and ever so useful T3.

T3 was the R2-D2, a typical Star Wars cliche so I can sort of let that slide.

 

Carth I actually thought was a fairly developed character, and one of the more realistic within the Universe. Yeah, its cliche, but in a time of war and so on even real life gets filled with cliches.

 

I adamantly REFUSE to play a male character in K1 because of Bastila. However, I hated both handmaiden -and- Disciple, and even Atton. Handmaiden was a slut, like Bastila. Disciple had terrible voice acting, and was a do-gooder douche, and Atton was a much more whiny and emo version of Carth.

 

Carth at least was sensitive about his wife dying (yes, shocking I know) and, considering that had happened a few months before not surprising he would refuse to talk about it for a lot of the game. He had a nice, progressing arch and is one of the few romances that I actually felt had nice, respectable, and mature pacing. Unlike TSL, in which you could unlike the entire dialogue tree in 20 minutes if you liked... god I hated that.

 

Since when has any EU material ever had legitimate context?

Point, though I always considered Old Republic as a sort of EU, as I'm pretty sure George and LucasArts is still pretty adamant about the 6 movies being the only true Star Wars.

 

Even compared to the first game, EU, 6 movies... and hell, even Force Unleashed (yeah, I said it), TSL was just an oddball storyline that felt like someone had put on a costume for a play they weren't apart of.

 

Again, seem my "Self-centered plots are better" line.

So, it is justified because it was only in this game? Original and everything, but I still cannot shake the feeling that it just did not belong, and was doing something that did not fit into what was there.

 

Although, I have the same problem with "the one" Anakin prophecy. With the EU, Old Republic, Movies, past the movies, and so on it made little sense for this to only ever occur once. Although that is just me trying to bring reason into something that probably shouldn't.

 

The the one religious meaning thing I can stand by and care little about while having something as serious as a hole in the force that could end all life in the galaxy... that seems a little far, even for Star Wars. Like I said, about a over the top and silly as Palpatine making black-holes with his mind.

 

Disagree, to an extent. There's the reformation of the Jedi Order, which might have probably been restored without training any of your companions, but I feel that your companions were meant to be the cornerstone of the new Order.

True, but the remaining order way destroyed to make way for a brand spankin new order only perhaps 2 or so years later.

 

You trained them, but Jedi teachers still existed, I doubt those were truly the last, and, in the context of the game's story within everything else... I just dunno. A mystical walking hole in life comes by and kills everyone.

 

I'm just... really annoyed by this. Mostly because Malak and Revan had already decimated much of the Order. It was already on the brink of collapse, and Nihilus just felt like an unneeded nail in the coffin. But instead of a nail, they used a railroad spike. And instead of a hammer, they used a nuke.

 

Why did it need to happen? Everyone that knew anything about Nihilus either died, disappeared, or went into exile. Visas would be the only person left who really knew a damn thing about what happened, and I doubt that is put into history books.

 

Again, I'd rather see some sense of creativity or a sort of unusual manner in writing rather than something utterly generic. If we still see banal plots being churned out by Bethesda or BioWare, then I feel that the genre is stagnant.

Unusual manner, maybe. Creativity... like I said, I think TSL is pretty devoid of creativity. Yes, it brought some rearranged concepts to Star Wars but it was only repeats off of games like Planescape, Baldur's Gate, NWN2, and so on.

 

Maybe you disliked Kotor's plot. It doesn't seem to be held in much high regard compared to TSL, but I thought Bioware did something creative and unusual with K1. Obsidian, a sloppy seconds publisher, took their idea and just had Avellone copy paste onto it. Yeah, K1 was not original in the genre but, in Star Wars at least, I felt like it did something neat.

 

Perhaps we're just on different tracks on a similar route, but I thought Bioware came up with the better idea out of the two. Yeah, it has cliches but I thought those cliches played better in the context of Star Wars while TSL's cliches play out better in a D&D style game.

 

TSL would have been a fine D&D game...

 

Oh, wait a second, it did. Mask of the Betrayer.

 

Methinks it's more of a 'K2 was unStar-Warsy and all GRIMDARK' than a 'K2 was DnD' thing, but I'll let Ave handle the interpretation of her own statements.

Both, I think. Grimdark is one thing, but myspace fanfiction "the world is so dark" to the point of comedy routine is another.

 

Star Wars, I admit, needs a more mature feel to it for the older audience. But maturity does not mean that it has to go into massive teenage angst mode. Jeez, most TSL characters were a "YOU TURNED HER AGAINST ME" line away from being Anakin. Atton practically was Anakin if you fused Vader with Han Solo. Hell, even despite how bad Haden was at acting at least he showed some sign of emotions in his speech.

 

Juhani's angst was unfortunately underdeveloped, as her story was dropped as it was seen as too mature for a Star Wars audience. Carth's angst was aged, and I though developed for a man who was in his 30s. Bastila was damn annoying, and there is little forgiving this but I don't play male so I let this one slide as it doesn't exist in my interpretation.

 

This is my interpretation of TSL mind you, and that game seems to have set itself up for many interpretations... none of which can really be called right or wrong anymore now that a third isn't coming with Avellone at the head.

[Jae Onasi]

Jolee pwns all. /thread

[Hallucination]

Both, I think. Grimdark is one thing, but myspace fanfiction "the world is so dark" to the point of comedy routine is another.

If that's what comes to mind when you think DnD you need a new group.

 

Also, when did you learn Force Longpost?

Jolee pwns all. /thread

He's the generic old guy who is cynical and complains about being old, the only thing original about him is he's the first one in a Star Wars game.

[True_Avery]

If that's what comes to mind when you think DnD you need a new group.

Not DnD. Just dull writing.

 

Also, when did you learn Force Longpost?

Avellone wrote it in. He's an amazing writer you know.

[Miltiades]

Oh, we had to get into the whole KotOR vs. KotOR 2 again, didn't we?

 

To Da_Man: Well, I've seen more "complaining" at the SWTOR.com community where the "complainers' were ignored or just called stupid (or other things). It has remained civil here, luckily.

[jrrtoken]

I would completely agree with you except that Avellone went out of his way to write both Exile and Revan as Mary-sue characters.

And? To be honest, every RPG employs this tactic, as it's usually meant to raise the PC's ego. It me be unrealistic, but it's all about making you feel "special", which is sort of the point of RPGs.

Everything played into Revan's hand far too perfectly. K1 had Revan sort of great as you were the character, but TSL just made the idea of choice in the first game a joke. No matter what path, choices, etc Revan was always the good guy, always saving the galaxy, and so on.

I think this was simply done as it is the only option that wouldn't involve massive rewrites and production time. If K2 had you choose the direct outcome of K1, there would be two completely different plots, and with that, many different settings. Naturally, they decided against that, as that would've required a much larger development team and a larger budget.

T3 was the R2-D2, a typical Star Wars cliche so I can sort of let that slide.

In K1, he was useful for one quest at the beginning of the game. That's it. He didn't talk again, and most certainly wasn't useful in combat. At least in K2 he had a personality and chimed in every situations, as well as having the hologram sequence, among other situations.

Carth I actually thought was a fairly developed character, and one of the more realistic within the Universe. Yeah, its cliche, but in a time of war and so on even real life gets filled with cliches.

Perhaps, but again, I was disappointed that you couldn't kill him in the DS ending in K1. You could kill off any other party members, but Carth "ran off", which was unfortunate, seeing as his disposition was obnoxious.

 

Luckily, at least I had the chance to nuke him in Mass Effect.

However, I hated both handmaiden -and- Disciple, and even Atton. Handmaiden was a slut, like Bastila. Disciple had terrible voice acting, and was a do-gooder douche, and Atton was a much more whiny and emo version of Carth.

At least Handmaiden had this humorous naivete, and Atton was Han Solo with more quips and dirty jokes, but yeah, I wasn't fond of Disciple.

Unusual manner, maybe. Creativity... like I said, I think TSL is pretty devoid of creativity. Yes, it brought some rearranged concepts to Star Wars but it was only repeats off of games like Planescape, Baldur's Gate, NWN2, and so on.

Perhaps, but Star Wars needed some fresh air, which is what we got. If we had another ending like in K1, I'd shoot myself.

Maybe you disliked Kotor's plot. It doesn't seem to be held in much high regard compared to TSL, but I thought Bioware did something creative and unusual with K1.

Not really.

 

Take the ending of ANH, add an ESB plot twist, except heavily foreshadow it, and now add a villain that wants to rule the galaxy. Creative, no?

Perhaps we're just on different tracks on a similar route, but I thought Bioware came up with the better idea out of the two. Yeah, it has cliches but I thought those cliches played better in the context of Star Wars while TSL's cliches play out better in a D&D style game.

I don't understand.

 

Why is a D&D-esque plot bad for Star Wars? They might have mostly different settings, but they all conform to basic tenants (Morality through magic, etc.), and they all share a same sort of quest (Find/ [insert item here], Stop [insert person here]). How are they radically different from each other, sans setting?

[adamqd]

Eu is Canon! So Say's Leland Chee... and Me