Clone Wars: Degrading the good Mandalorian Name

[Te Darasuum Mandalor]

Mandalorians from the KOTOR era were pretty bad. But why don't they be like Mandalorians from the post KOTOR era? Canderous didin't fight much during his reign as Mandalore and the clans lived in peace, though they still kept the ancient traditions. Dutchess Satine is ruining everything! ANd now they are trying to make it romantic in the show, in the last episode, Obi Kenobi and her had an affair.

[True_Avery]

Mandalorians from the KOTOR era were pretty bad. But why don't they be like Mandalorians from the post KOTOR era? Canderous didin't fight much during his reign as Mandalore and the clans lived in peace, though they still kept the ancient traditions. Dutchess Satine is ruining everything! ANd now they are trying to make it romantic in the show, in the last episode, Obi Kenobi and her had an affair.

Affair? Neither of them are married as far as I know.

 

Oh... and Post Kotor ERA Mandalorians were just as bad. Canderous only brought the clans together because they were a -stronger- force when they were combined. He still had a overall military power in mind.

 

aaaaannnndddd guess what they did with that unity? They combined forces with the Sith Empire and invaded the Republic again in the upcoming MMO. After that, the went to war with the Sith and Jedi again in the New Sith Wars.

 

Far in the future they fought the Empire, and eventually joined forced with the Vong against the Republic.

 

Dutchess Satine is one of the few to come forward and try to bring out diplomacy within her war loving people. She is doing more towards "peace" than Canderous ever did.

 

And in the end, she isn't ruining -anything- because both factions end up disappearing anyway to be replaced by Boba's Mandalorians.

[Te Darasuum Mandalor]

Deathwatch should be given a province or track of land on Dxun and make peace with the Dutchess.

[Endorenna]

Deathwatch should be given a province or track of land on Dxun and make peace with the Dutchess.

 

The point is, they won't make peace. They don't want some land on a moon somewhere. They have an entire moon already (Concordia). They want to lead the Mandalorians as a whole back to the old ways. The duchess is in their way, 'cuz she's sorta figured out that murder is wrong...which is a big achievement, considering that three and a half millennia passed without the Mandalorians figuring it out or caring.

[Te Darasuum Mandalor]

good point. I still can't get used to this new Mandalorian movement.

[Ghost]

that's because the DeathWatch honors their own code. I did not see any of the original Mandalorian Code in that episode, so pretty much DeathWatch is just a bunch of common mercenaries, which were totally different from Canderous's Mandalorians

[Te Darasuum Mandalor]

If I were Mand'alor I would assasinate the dutchess, crush deathwatch and then arise from all others as best Mandalore ever!

[Ghost]

The Duchess is not the problem, its their democracy. If you assasinated the Duchess, another would take her place, and you would be exiled, killed, or imprisoned for what you did. a real blow would be to create a political party, Win as the Leader, and reorganize the Mandalorian Government. You probably would have to cripple the government first though

[TKA-001]

The ones shown in the game, with the exception of Canderous, were the gutter scum that still wanted to murder and destroy and call it right.

Why not Canderous as well? How is he different?

 

that's because the DeathWatch honors their own code. I did not see any of the original Mandalorian Code in that episode, so pretty much DeathWatch is just a bunch of common mercenaries, which were totally different from Canderous's Mandalorians

What is the "Mandalorian code"? Furthermore, what is the difference between the Death Watch/True Mandalorians and Canderous' clans, except that the former doesn't work for anyone?

[machievelli]

I'll continue this conversation when you remove your subtext about me being a History Ignorant Bigot for judging a fictional group of people based on what lore is available.

 

I apologize if that is how my statements were taken. A lot of my own knee jerk reaction is the soldier=evil of modern society where no warrior goes off to fight unless he's either brainwashed, forced or naturally homicidal.

 

My use of history as example is my own nature, because as horrible as our enemy is, we wil have done as bad if not worse. As I said in my first post, why do you think I left the Nazis out? They weren't strong, they built on the nature of their people then skewed it.

 

This isn't reality. It is fiction. It is the writers job to help me empathize and see this group' point of view; not mine. If I'm not seeing what you're seeing, then I either missed something in the story or you're adding liberal amounts of your own fluff and supposition to the lore.

 

As for the games mention of the Mandalorians, there is only one specific incident reported, the genocide on Cathar, that was a true atrocity. Everything else was more like the propoganda one side uses to justify their own actions. As for the specific episode they are discussing, that I have never seen.

 

When I was writing my own versions of the two games, I went back and everytime I had a chance, talked to Canderous. He is a thug at the start of the game, the hired muscle of a gang, but his actions from that point are of someone who has much greater depth. His reminiscences focused on how they viewed the same war, and didn't boast of mass slaughter, but on the desire for a 'great' opponent to defeat. A lot of my later thoughts on it were linked to the EU books of Karen Traviss, who must have seen the same.

[Ghost]

What is the "Mandalorian code"? Furthermore, what is the difference between the Death Watch/True Mandalorians and Canderous' clans, except that the former doesn't work for anyone?

 

The Difference is that DeathWatch will kill anyone and everyone on sight. The True Mandos knew when to shoot and when to hold fire, except the thugs and raiders of course. The DeathWatch just attacks without good planning, and they do suicidal moves, something I never saw from Ordo's Clan. And, the DeathWatch's Leader is a coward. He attacks, and then retreats and lets his servants do the work. Canderous would have fought to the death.

[TKA-001]

The Difference is that DeathWatch will kill anyone and everyone on sight

Killing everything just for being there was the entire premise of the Mandalorian Wars.

 

The DeathWatch just attacks without good planning, and they do suicidal moves, something I never saw from Ordo's Clan.

Examples, please?

 

And, the DeathWatch's Leader is a coward. He attacks, and then retreats and lets his servants do the work. Canderous would have fought to the death.

Please explain to me what is so ****ing admirable about fighting to the death for everything and doing everything yourself. So far you seem to just be splitting hairs as for the differences between these groups.

[none223]

How about we all just agree the TCW f***ed EVERYTHING that is not related directly to the Clone Wars. While stuff about clones IS true, everything else they ever talk about (with exception of the darksaber, thats total bull----).

 

And what about them trying to make the show appeal to older audiences? That is definately not happening...

[Ghost]

Killing everything just for being there was the entire premise of the Mandalorian Wars.

 

That's True, but not always, atleast not during Canderous' reign. They did not kill everything, in fact, in K2, I only saw Mando's fighting for good reasons, self-defense, assisting the Exile, shall I continue?

 

Examples, please?

 

Hmm, let me see. If you watched the episode you would have seen the DeathWatch assasin who created that bomb in the streets jumped off the ledge to kill himself. Also the Duchess informs Obi-Wan that their DeathWatch merc that they captured took his own life. In K2, I never saw anything that hinted suicide for the Mandalorians, unless I missed something.

 

Please explain to me what is so ****ing admirable about fighting to the death for everything and doing everything yourself. So far you seem to just be splitting hairs as for the differences between these groups.

 

The thing that's admirable as you say is the Mandalorians during the Kotor Era were more Organized, especially during the Mandalorian Wars. Their attacks were well planned. If you talked to Canderous in K1, he would have told you his stories of battles long past. Althir where they found a weakness, and organized their forces to exploit it. The DeathWatch is no more than Common Thugs who can't even organize a well-planned attack. All they did was plan to get the civies on their side. And their leader is barely a good fighter, that was shown by his cowardice. He only fought Kenobi for a few minutes, and that was all attacking. When Kenobi fought back, he ran away and let his little "pets" do the work for him. A True Leader would have found a weakness in Kenobi's attack and exploited it, defeated him, etc. THAT is what the Mandalorians are so admirable about. Their Combat Tactics are barely surpassed by the Echani, because they are skilled hand warriors. However, after the Mando War, they lost that tactic as they became common mercenaries like the DeathWatch, until Canderous brought order to them

 

How about we all just agree the TCW f***ed EVERYTHING that is not related directly to the Clone Wars. While stuff about clones IS true, everything else they ever talk about (with exception of the darksaber, thats total bull----).

 

agreed. The DarkSaber does look like bull****, and then they threw away the Mandalorian Culture, tactics, etc. Way to go LF

 

And what about them trying to make the show appeal to older audiences? That is definately not happening...

 

The show was made for younger audiences, I guess we'll have to accept that, but I would like it to be a little more expanded on its age group focus

[Astor]

However, after the Mando War, they lost that tactic as they became common mercenaries like the DeathWatch, until Canderous brought order to them

 

Order or not, they're still mercenaries, willing to fight for whoever can pay the most. That doesn't really strike me as 'honourable'.

 

then they threw away the Mandalorian Culture, tactics, etc. Way to go LF

 

They haven't thrown it all away. This is *one* group of Mandalorians who don't follow this hallowed 'code of honour', while there are other groups who do.

[Te Darasuum Mandalor]

Remember Keleborn on the Ravager? He made a major screw up by accidently destroying one of the proton charges and I specificly remember him say "Canderous, I have failed. I have accidently set off one of the charges! Should I..." Canderous interupts.

 

"No, that won't be nessasary."

[Ghost]

Order or not, they're still mercenaries, willing to fight for whoever can pay the most. That doesn't really strike me as 'honourable'.

 

Really? Because I heard that only the fallen clans were no-good mercs. Canderous changed all that, because after Revan, he wasn't in it for money. K2 states that well

 

Remember Keleborn on the Ravager? He made a major screw up by accidently destroying one of the proton charges and I specificly remember him say "Canderous, I have failed. I have accidently set off one of the charges! Should I..." Canderous interupts.

 

"No, that won't be nessasary."

 

I don't remember that, Kelborn never contacted Mandalore on the Ravager, it was Zuka. so that Dialogue is either cut content or you made it up

[Te Darasuum Mandalor]

I thought it was kelborn, I may be mistaken though. I know it was one of them. Play it through again.

[Ghost]

I did recently, and I never noticed that Dialogue on the Ravager.

 

Anyway back on topic, I think that LF wanted to stir up the audience with the so-called "Darksaber" but I really think thats a load of crap.

[Te Darasuum Mandalor]

Ok, here's the link. It was Zuka. google Zuka on Wookipedia and read towards the bottom. It talks about his honourable personality and how hewas willing to murder himself after he screwed up. I hate all this deathwatch crap too however. Besides, whos ever heard of a saber weilding mando?

[Ghost]

Well, one or two did in K1, if you remember in fighting the Mando leader on Dantooine, but he was just another raider fiend

[TKA-001]

That's True, but not always, atleast not during Canderous' reign. They did not kill everything, in fact, in K2, I only saw Mando's fighting for good reasons, self-defense, assisting the Exile, shall I continue?

They "did not kill everything" because they didn't have enough people. Canderous says as much that the only reason they're not at war with the Republic again is because they're rebuilding to fight again. As for them helping the good guys in TSL, fighting evil does not make one good. The Mandalorians would just as soon attack the Republic as they would the Sith, and for exactly the same reason. They don't give a **** about whether the Sith are evil or not. It's all about either a) Fighting for money or b) Fighting for its own sake.

 

Hmm, let me see. If you watched the episode you would have seen the DeathWatch assasin who created that bomb in the streets jumped off the ledge to kill himself. Also the Duchess informs Obi-Wan that their DeathWatch merc that they captured took his own life. In K2, I never saw anything that hinted suicide for the Mandalorians, unless I missed something.

I did watch the episode in question, thank you not-at-all, and I got no impression whatsoever that there was any fundamental difference between those Mandalorians and the others we see.

 

Since we seem to be on the issue of suicide, the Mandalorian culture has an honor system such that if you lose a fight to a vastly superior opponent, you lose your honor, and you can only regain it by fighting that person again and dying. Davrel tries this in TSL; he was willing to start a fight that he could never survive for his honor. Really, they're just as fanatical as the Death Watch, just in slightly different ways.

 

All they did was plan to get the civies on their side.

Getting public support is key to holding onto the government once you take it over. The Death Watch doesn't have the manpower to capture and hold another planet on its own.

 

And their leader is barely a good fighter, that was shown by his cowardice. He only fought Kenobi for a few minutes, and that was all attacking. When Kenobi fought back, he ran away and let his little "pets" do the work for him.

"All attacking?" So what? You're supposed to stay on the offensive in a sword fight. More to the point, if he was a coward, then he would have evacuated with his men when he had the chance.

 

That Vizsla got his ass handed to him by Kenobi is hardly a strike against his fighting ability, since he's an ordinary man and Obi-Wan is not only a Jedi, but one of the most skilled swordsmen in their entire Order. The mere fact that Vizsla got the idea in his head to challenge a ****ing Jedi to a swordfight in the first place puts him on an level of badassery equal to (if not higher than) Jango Fett, who evidently is toast against a Jedi unless he's got his jetpack.

 

A True Leader would have found a weakness in Kenobi's attack and exploited it, defeated him, etc.

No, in all likelihood a True Mandalorian would get his ass busted just as easily as Vizsla did, because not only do Mandalorians have no Force training, but they also don't know **** about lightsaber combat. Where does this idea about Mandalorians being so skilled in combat actually come from, anyway?

 

Well, one or two did in K1, if you remember in fighting the Mando leader on Dantooine, but he was just another raider fiend

Sherruk is his name. His case is notable because Canderous says that he and his people are "taking scraps when [they] should be taking worlds!" Basically, Canderous is saying that Sherruk is a bastard because he was only terrorizing and extorting local farmers, instead of much larger groups of people.

[Hallucination]

Besides, whos ever heard of a saber weilding mando?

Well, one or two did in K1, if you remember in fighting the Mando leader on Dantooine, but he was just another raider fiend

It's also implied that the ones on Kashyyyk were using lightsabres if you read their datapads. I guess they thought imitating Jedi was a good idea.

[machievelli]

Order or not, they're still mercenaries, willing to fight for whoever can pay the most. That doesn't really strike me as 'honourable'.

 

 

 

They haven't thrown it all away. This is *one* group of Mandalorians who don't follow this hallowed 'code of honour', while there are other groups who do.

 

You do remember the Prussian Ethic (Created by the Prussian Mercenaries) is the primary tradition of the German army since Frederick the Great, right?

 

And that my namesake's primary reason for writing the Prince, and saying armies should be home grown was not because the mercenaries of the era were not honorable. It was rather that they honored the contract instead of going with 'whoever can pay the most.'

[Q]

I lol'd.