Te Darasuum Mandalor Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 I guess you are right. As Americans, we should still give credit to the British for giving us their ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted July 4, 2010 Author Share Posted July 4, 2010 I guess you are right. As Americans, we should still give credit to the British for giving us their ideas. You should reread the Declaration of Independence Te Darasuum Mandalor, the 13 colonies grievances were not with the people of Great Britain, but with King George III. I also disagree with your assessment that being powerful makes the United States great. That kind of goes against the reasons for America’s independence, it isn’t power that makes one great, but how that power is used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Te Darasuum Mandalor Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 It wasn't king George they had a problem with, that is a stereotype. Their real issue was with parliment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted July 4, 2010 Author Share Posted July 4, 2010 My god man, read. Reading is fun. They had already rejected Parliament’s control a few years before 1976. How do you think they established the Continental Congress? Second, I do find it offensive that you call the Declaration of Independence a stereotype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommycat Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Astor, I think the comment was because of Sabretooth was saying that the Hawiians had colonized it previously. That was pre-historic not expansionist colonization. Where PR/Guam/VI and Phillipines had already been colonized by other countries expanding their borders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabretooth Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Astor, I think the comment was because of Sabretooth was saying that the Hawiians had colonized it previously. Actually, I was talking about Native Americans as in Native Americans who are the Aztecs, Inca, Iroquois etc., as had been specified before, and not the Hawaiians, whom I am not very familiar with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ping Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 I guess you are right. As Americans, we should still give credit to the British for giving us their ideas. It was the Enlightenment philosophers who gave us our ideas. I believe Voltaire and Rousseau both gave the idea of freedom of speech and religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 It wasn't king George they had a problem with, that is a stereotype. Their real issue was with parliment. I'm pretty sure when the Founding Fathers said 'the King', they really meant 'the King'. That would be in line with all the primary historical sources I've ever seen on the Declaration of Independence, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Saw this in the WSJ the other day: http://www.peggynoonan.com/ esp: Jefferson had, in his bill of particulars against the king, taken a moment to incriminate the English people themselves—"our British brethren"—for allowing their king and Parliament to send over to America not only "soldiers of our own blood" but "foreign Mercenaries to invade and destroy us." This, he said, was at the heart of the tragedy of separation. "These facts have given the last stab to agonizing affection, and manly spirit bids us renounce forever" our old friends and brothers. "We must endeavor to forget our former love for them." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavlos Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 It was the Enlightenment philosophers who gave us our ideas. I believe Voltaire and Rousseau both gave the idea of freedom of speech and religion. Good ideas belong to everyone not the people of a particular country, but I don't suppose you've ever heard of John Locke, by any chance? Only a small personality, the father of Liberalism is all. Or, you know, Thomas Paine, one of your founding fathers. Anyway, Happy Birthday, America. You may not always live up to your ideals but at least your heart is in the right place; don't let the idea of the land of the free die, will you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ping Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Good ideas belong to everyone not the people of a particular country, but I don't suppose you've ever heard of John Locke, by any chance? Only a small personality, the father of Liberalism is all. Or, you know, Thomas Paine, one of your founding fathers. Actually, I have. I was just listing people off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Te Darasuum Mandalor Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 I never said the declaration is a stereotype, I said that it is stereotypical that people believe king George was their problem when it was mostly with parliment.BAnd ping, don't forget Montisquie and Locke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pho3nix Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 It was all in God's plan that this great nation was born. Disturbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted July 4, 2010 Author Share Posted July 4, 2010 I never said the declaration is a stereotype, I said that it is stereotypical that people believe king George was their problem when it was mostly with parliment.Then you are calling the Delaration of Independence a sterotype since it is clearly directed at King George III. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world. He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good. He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them. He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only. He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures. He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people. He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within. He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands. He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers. He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries. He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance. He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.[/b] Or just who do you think our Founding Fathers are referring to in the Declaration of Independence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Te Darasuum Mandalor Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 The king of coarse, but by 1776, the king was mad and it was parliment that made most of the rules. Other than that you are absolutely right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Working Class Hero Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Disturbing. I can't believe it. I actually agree with Pho3nix? what is happening to me!? @TDM You, like me, are a Christian; right? If so, then I'm confused: How could you possibly think that God approves of the way America is formed? I don't think He approves of genocide, raping women, stealing land, and slavery; because that is what America was formed from. Independence Day is always a sad time for me because I realize people like you still want to look at America's past as some sort of divine-will guided nation; when in fact it could not be further from the truth. We glorify soldiers (killers and mercenaries, all of them), as somehow being 'brave' and 'patriotic'. It makes me feel disgusted to have been born in America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Te Darasuum Mandalor Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 But do you think we would have just been given our freedom if we asked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Well, it isn't any worse than the way modern American culture glorifies all kinds of debauchery in the name of exercising personal desires. Still a big part of what makes this country great, both in the eyes of most of its citizens and many others around the world is the freedom to express their views w/o fear of the govt putting them away and the opportunity to prosper in ways that you can't elsewhere in the world, or at least not as easily. But do you think we would have just been given our freedom if we asked? Of course not. Empires aren't run that way. Not to mention the fact that the majority of 18th century Americans weren't exactly chomping at the bit to leave, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Te Darasuum Mandalor Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 I agree. Take piracy for example and how we depict them as fortune hunters who sink ships while they were really unhonorable sailors who pilliged, stole, raped, and other terrible things. This is a similar case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted July 4, 2010 Author Share Posted July 4, 2010 Let’s get back to topic and leave fantasy out of it, if you want the fiction section take it to Atho, Dantooine Theatre Company or Coruscant Entertainment Centre. Let us also remember this is a diverse and international community and opinions differ, so keep it civil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seikan Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 But do you think we would have just been given our freedom if we asked? I Guess by "I don't think He approves of genocide, raping women, stealing land, and slavery; because that is what America was formed from." He don't talk about the independence day, but how America was really formed, because we can say it, even if it only became America after the independence, it begin to be formed before. And it was formed killing the native Americans, stealing their lands, bringing African slaves, etc... @WCH: For me it would rather be Thanks giving, because come on: The modern Thanksgiving holiday traces its origins from a 1621 celebration at the Plymouth Plantation, where the Plymouth settlers held a harvest feast after a successful growing season. It is ironic that this iconic event is generally referred to as the "First Thanksgiving", because, in reality, it was not, since it came two years after the true first Thanksgiving that was celebrated in Virginia. Squanto, a Patuxet Native American who resided with the Wampanoag tribe, taught the Pilgrims how to catch eel and grow corn and served as an interpreter for them (Squanto had learned English while enslaved in Europe and during travels in England). Additionally the Wampanoag leader Massasoit had caused food stores to be donated to the fledgling colony during the first winter when supplies brought from England were insufficient. If now in thanksgiving that's what is celebrated, after the genocide of the native Americans, it seems a little inappropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Te Darasuum Mandalor Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 I hate when people say that massachusets is our origin and the first thanksgiving was there! And your right, The fourth is for celebrating the US and thanksgiving is north America in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jae Onasi Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 The king of coarse, but by 1776, the king was mad and it was parliment that made most of the rules. Other than that you are absolutely right. Who in the world is teaching your history class? They probably should be fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 Perhaps Netflix But in fairness, as was pointed out in the Noonan piece above, Thomas Jefferson himself lay the blame on all of Britain, not merely the King. As the head of Britain's empire, though, it was only natural (and right) he would be the main focus of the litany of complaints/charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimartin Posted July 4, 2010 Author Share Posted July 4, 2010 Who in the world is teaching your history class? They probably should be fired. I think they got some Texas textbooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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